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F1 discussion

Hamilton on Vettel: “He is not unbeatable, his car is”

This topic contains 60 replies, has 25 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Loup Garou Loup Garou 1 year, 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 61 total)
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  • #242697
    Profile photo of Nick
    Nick
    Participant

    @DavidnotCoulthard

    Villeneuve still put that thing on the podium, too. Williams also lost their Renault engine and got the reg. changes wrong. I’m not exactly a Villeneuve fan, but he did impress from time to time with BAR in 1999 (qualifying mostly) and 2000, but he fell off soon after. I think that had a lot more to do with motivation and approach than anything else, though.

    Also, since people are gifting championships to Newey; where are the people lamenting Mansell’s 1992 title? Or Prost’s 1993? Damon Hill didn’t win another WDC after 1996. What about Mika Hakkinen, won 1 race in a non-Newey-car, the rest only in Newey cars! We all know how Mansell did at Ferrari and McLaren, or how Prost did at Ferrari, not even mentioning Hill at Brabham, Arrows or Jordan? (Mind you, this is sarcastic; Mansell nearly winning the title in a Newey-less Williams, Prost nearly winning the title at Ferrari in 1990 and Hill nearly winning a race for Arrows and actually winning in a Jordan are great performances which had nothing to do with Newey.)

    Of course Vettel isn’t considered an all-time great by everyone yet; he’s barely been in the sport for 6 years. There were people feverishly denying Schumacher was an all time great until 2003/4 as well, when he beat a new generation of drivers and his retirement was imminent. The people who loathed Schumacher in his dominant days have moved on and accepted him; I guess it’ll take time before the boo-bus does too.

    #242698
    Profile photo of Simon F1 Fan
    Simon F1 Fan
    Member

    Hammy seems to get criticized no matter what he says or does.

    People often forget that Lewis nearly won the championship in 2007 by ONE single point. That is pure talent in my opinion.

    Hammy in a Red Bull would beat Vettel in a Red Bull…….in my opinion.

    #242699
    Profile photo of wsrgo
    wsrgo
    Participant

    @simon-f1-fan Well, people also seem to forget that Vettel whalloped a 4-time Champ Car champion, who also won International F3000.

    #242700
    Profile photo of David-A
    David-A
    Participant

    @simon-f1-fan -

    Hammy of all people should know what it’s like to get fast cars at a young age, as in your 2007 example. Vettel in fact, was world championship runner up at a younger age than Hamilton, also winning four races. That is also pure talent.

    #242701
    Profile photo of Simon F1 Fan
    Simon F1 Fan
    Member

    It just stood out for me, that Hammy in 2007 – his ROOKIE season, was ONE point away from being World Champion at the end of the last race.

    Vettel is a superb driver, as is Alonso, but I just get fed up of people having a go at Hammy no matter what he says or does.

    Another example is that this is Lewis’s first season with Mercedes and yet he is ahead of Rosberg who has been with them for a few seasons now.

    #242702
    Profile photo of Bosley
    Bosley
    Participant

    @simon-f1-fan In all fairness, had Rosberg not had mechanical failures for the 4th race now in Korea, he would be on par, or even ahead of Lewis. Remember which driver has 2 wins now.

    On topic, I think as @david-a already stated, “Vettel’s car is unbeatable, when Vettel is driving it.”

    #242703
    Profile photo of JamieFranklinF1
    JamieFranklinF1
    Participant

    If the car is unbeatable, then why isn’t Webber always 1st or 2nd? Surely, if the car is unbeatable, it wouldn’t matter who was driving it, because it would be unbeatable. I’m fed up with Hamilton and especially his fans saying that Vettel is only a good driver in a great car. No-one wins three successive championships, and on the verge of a 4th without being a great driver.

    Last year, I thought Alonso was the best driver on the grid. This year, it is Vettel. Why? Because he can qualify extremely well, and his race ability is just as good. His racing average this year is amazing, and given that his car hasn’t been the best car on the grid for the whole year, then that strikes me as very impressive.

    I don’t deny that Hamilton is a very good driver, no matter how much I dislike him, and he’d beat Vettel on occasion, as always happens, but I still rate Vettel higher.

    #242704
    Profile photo of Lucas Wilson
    Lucas Wilson
    Participant

    @jamiefranklinf1

    First of all, Webber is past it and not a good benchmark. Forget Webber, Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are the best drivers. But as much talent Vettel has, you still have to accept the fact that he does have, and has had, the best car for 4 years now. How can you say it is not :-)?

    I just really hope that Mercedes is at least on a par with Rd Bull and that Ferrari get their act together. A three way battle between Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel, how wouldn’t want to see that?

    #242705
    Profile photo of Simon F1 Fan
    Simon F1 Fan
    Member

    In all fairness Lewis has had his fair share of bad luck too. But when Lewis has bad luck people never seem to notice.

    #242706
    Profile photo of JamieFranklinF1
    JamieFranklinF1
    Participant

    @Full-throttle-F1

    Because saying that is distorting what really happened. In 2010, the Red Bull was at its most dominant, but had reliability issues. In 2011, the car was consistently good, but didn’t actually share the same average performance advantage, it was Vettel whom was dominant. In 2012, McLaren had the overall fastest car, but was plagued with reliability, and Vettel capitalized. This season, Lotus and Ferrari were fastest in the races, with Mercedes the best in qualifying. The scale has somewhat tipped recently into Red Bull’s favour, and Vettel has used this time to his advantage, whilst Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton and Rosberg didn’t.

    I didn’t say Webber was a good benchmark either. I said that (Even if he’s considered average) then surely he would finish second if the car was unbeatable, but it’s not. The car IS beatable, and is constantly beaten, just not when Vettel is driving.

    #242707
    Profile photo of Lucas Wilson
    Lucas Wilson
    Participant

    @jamiefranklinf1

    Of course I disagree. That Red Bull car is the most dominant than any other, the composure through the corners, the speed, its magical to watch. I don’t think that is all driver. Red Bull is the best team, that has what has won them the championships, the fact that Vettel nearly lost to Alonso in 2010 and 2012 shows that he isn’t a all conquering Senna-esque legend as some Vettel fans would have you believe ;-).

    Watch the RB team, their pit stops are effortless, their strategy spot on, their car fast in almost all conditions plus a world class driver. ‘Domincance’ is a team effort you know, Shumacher didn’t win 5 world titles in a row just down to talent.

    #242708
    Profile photo of Nick
    Nick
    Participant

    Red Bull is the best team, that has what has won them the championships, the fact that Vettel nearly lost to Alonso in 2010 and 2012 shows that he isn’t a all conquering Senna-esque legend as some Vettel fans would have you believe ;-).

    You’re the first to mention Senna. Honestly, I think we need an F1 related Godwin’s law; ‘The longer a thread or discussion lasts, the higher the probability someone will compare someone to Ayrton Senna’.

    The thing is, most people in this thread would say it’s not JUST Vettel or JUST the Red Bull, it’s the way they go together. The combination is the best; but that does not have to mean the Red Bull has been the best car for the past 4 years. There’s a difference in a car that has performed the best (= achieved the best results) and the car with most potential. McLaren last year is a prime example of this, as is Williams in 1986.

    Hamilton should be aware after 2009 how important a good car is, no matter how good you are. Heck, he’s been overtaken by a Williams, scored poles and won a race this year alone. The thing is, Hamilton is probably very much concerned with his legacy. I don’t find it arrogant (heck, I can imagine the frustration of drivers like DC, when in 20 years time people start forgetting about him like they forgot about Alboreto, Reuteman and others who were good, but didn’t win a WDC) but I also don’t find it necessary to talk about it in this spiteful manner. Much as I found Alonso’s comments in 2012 about ‘we are racing Newey’ to be of poor taste. Of course it looks and feels better when you’ve beaten the best. That’s why Alonso had such hubris after 2005/2006; he beat Schumacher. Now, they’re up against someone who appears to have his string of dominance (relatively) much sooner than Schumacher did in his career, thus disabling Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen from grabbing the titles and wins they’d normally compete for.

    Maybe Hamlton needs to consult Jean Alesi.

    #242709
    Profile photo of Lucas Wilson
    Lucas Wilson
    Participant

    @npf1

    Agreed with your post. Red Bull and Vettel is like Strawberries and Cream :-)

    #242710
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    @full-throttle-f1

    I’m still curious about what has Hamilton done that was THAT impressive that puts him among the top 15 drivers in history but Vettel not even an “all time greatest”.

    I’m really curious :0

    #242711
    Profile photo of Lucas Wilson
    Lucas Wilson
    Participant

    I didn’t say that Vettel won’t be an all time great. Hamilton, like many a driver, needs a good car, he is one of the last instinctive racers, the last of the late breakers, McLaren have probably gave him the best car in his rookie year, the 2nd best in 2008, he put in amazing displays in ’09 in a terrible McLaren quite far off the pace of the Brawn and Red Bulls . He can’t show his worth, many doubt him as driver as he has never been able to show what he is made of and the fact that he won his only WDC by a single point counts against him in many peoples eyes. The changes in 2011 (I think) don’t suit Hamilton’s driving style, the conservation of tyres is not his thing at the best of times, he just wants to race. Give him the best car and he will show you that he deserves his place in the all time greats.

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