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F1 discussion

Did Hamilton have more fuel left at the end of the race?

This topic contains 14 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Iestyn Davies Iestyn Davies 2 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
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  • #260104
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    In the US, NBC Sports shows us the Fuel usage from every car and it seemed that at the end of the race, Lewis had 3 kgs of fuel more than Nico. I’ve noticed the same situation in other races too. Of course, it stands to reason that weight affects performance negatively as we all know. From reading this forum, I’ve been told that a kilo generally costs 0.2 seconds per lap

    My questions to this knowledgeable forum of F1 aficionados are:
    - Why does Lewis have more fuel at the end of the race? Nico was not really fighting for position, just following Lewis in clean air. How did he use up more fuel?
    - What was the estimated impact of the extra 3kgs at the end of the race?

    #260107
    Avatar of Adam Blocker
    Adam Blocker
    Participant

    Maybe Lewis likes to start with less fuel on board. We don’t know, the graphic doesn’t take this into account.

    #260110
    Avatar of PieLighter
    PieLighter
    Participant

    Indeed, the graphic shows fuel used, which is not necessarily out of 100.

    #260114
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    For performance to be equal, Lewis would have had to start with 2-3 kgs less fuel. I do recall Will Buxton saying that Lewis had more fuel so he could theoretically use that to hold off Rosberg as long as Lewis didn’t exceed the fuel usage threshold as Daniel had in Australia.

    How would he have known that or was he simply assuming that both Merc drivers started with the same amount of fuel?

    As you guys correctly pointed out, I deleted the race so I can’t go back and see what they showed us but I do recall the amount of fuel used going up while they displayed those statistics on the screen. That means that it’s definitely real-time and since it was going up it would have had to be amount used, not remaining which would have gone down as the race progressed.

    Using 2-3kgs less fuel in a race while being in the lead and quickest car while your teammate is driving under similar conditions is very strange, at least to me. That’s a 5% fuel saving while you’re trying to go as fast as you possibly can – is that even possible?

    What could possibly account for that lower usage? Is it the way that Lewis drives? Is he maxing the ERS and therefore using less fuel? Is Nico trying hard to catch up and using more fuel?

    How much impact would those 3 extra kgs of fuel have at the end?

    #260119
    Avatar of matt90
    matt90
    Participant

    How would he have known that or was he simply assuming that both Merc drivers started with the same amount of fuel?

    Probably an assumption. BBC pointed it out to, saying that it could be useful for holding off Rosberg. However, they later said that maybe it was because one side of the garage didn’t know how many laps were left- on one lap apparently Lewis’s pit board said there were 17 laps to go, and Rosberg’s said 16.

    #260123
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    as long as Lewis didn’t exceed the fuel usage threshold as Daniel had in Australia.

    Daniel didn’t exceed the fuel usage threshold, he was penalized for using the wrong equipment, not for exceeding fuel usage.

    #260158
    Avatar of chris
    chris
    Participant

    Daniel was penalised as his car at times consumed fuel at a rate greater than than the 100kg per hour maximum mandated by the current regulations.

    The FIA sensor and RedBulls calculations both confirmed his car exceeded the maximum.

    #260159
    Avatar of chris
    chris
    Participant

    I’ve noticed Lewis using less fuel than others, also i think it was Malaysia where Nico asked his team if he should burn fuel be lighter to help him catch Lewis.

    Lastly i think 1KG = 0.1 seconds per lap, cars can have as much fuel in them as they want but are not allowed to consume more than 100 KG for the race at a rate of no more than 100KG per hour.

    #260225
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    Lastly i think 1KG = 0.1 seconds per lap, cars can have as much fuel in them as they want but are not allowed to consume more than 100 KG for the race at a rate of no more than 100KG per hour.

    Really, I thought they can’t carry more than 100kgs. As far as I know there are 2 limits – a consumption fuel flow limit (100kg/hr not to be exceeded at any time)and a total amount limit.

    Can someone clarify the regulations? I’m sure a dozen people know it off the top of their heads on this forum:)

    #260226
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    If 1KG = 0.1 seconds per lap well that means that Lewis had a 0.3 second handicap at the end of the race just from extra fuel.

    I still don’t understand why he had more fuel – he started from pole so you’d expect him to start with no more fuel than Nico. Both cars were expected to not be fighting for position much.

    I’m surprised no one has provided a theory yet on the F1Fanatic forum. Obviously Mercedes needs to look into this because the last thing they want is Rosberg on quicker rubber and a lighter car at the end of the race…

    I think Vettel and Senna would ram that car in a heartbeat especially if the championship was on the line and I think Lewis would be fully justified in doing so if it happens a 3rd time.

    #260249
    Avatar of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    OK, here’s the answer. Lewis is talking about the ‘lift and coast’ method quite a lot and how he’s now actually faster with it in 2014 than going flat out every race lap. This is because 2014 F1 is an ‘efficiency formula’ (Paddy Lowe’s words) – in the past you had to burn more fuel to go faster, but carry the weight which slowed you down, whereas now you go faster by carrying less weight, giving you more performance from the fuel you have onboard, i.e. a double efficiency.

    Williams are also doing this strategy, but it means you can’t push flat out to overtake cars if need be.. e.g. they got stuck in traffic in Malaysia, Massa only having one attempt to pass each time, and Bottas holding station. The main place this works is out front, i.e. Lewis, like Vettel used to do with the uber-downforce, lack of straight line speed RB. It remains to be seen if RB will change their strategy if they get caught behind Williams again.

    Lift and coast – hold a top speed at 11k rpm, losing some top speed.. then brake later and gain that time back under braking. However, you can carry less weight around the whole lap for less fuel used, gaining time everywhere from having a lighter car. But you are susceptible to being passed like Grosjean, it almost looked like he had a mechanical issue when 4 cars swept by him.

    #260318
    Avatar of matt90
    matt90
    Participant

    What I was wondering was if it’s definitely the case that Hamilton had less fuel than Rosberg at the start. It obviously makes the most sense to explain the difference, but I’d be curious to see some official confirmation.

    #260325
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @fastiesty – so what you’re saying if I understand it correctly is that Lewis is driving more slowly in order to be quicker in terms of time. He does that by having less fuel and by braking later.

    That’s fascinating – are there any links to articles talking about that?

    #260349
    Avatar of Keith Campbell
    Keith Campbell
    Participant

    I’ve been told that a kilo generally costs 0.2 seconds per lap

    I think this figure is out by a factor of 10. If this was true then carrying 1 kilo extra of fuel for the whole race would cost a full 12 seconds in the race. To use the Sutil example – he is 15kgs heavier than Gutierrez, so using this figure (when their car was overweight) that would be costing him 3 seconds per lap!

    I’ve heard a rule-of-thumb figure of 0.2 seconds per 10kgs, which seems more reasonable. So if Hamilton had around 3kgs extra fuel left at the end this would have been costing him 0.067secs per lap (or 4 seconds over 60 laps, if that 3kgs difference was constant).

    Back on topic, i think the lower fuel used by Lewis might be caused by driving styles or it might have been slightly tactical. Maybe Lewis naturally saves a little more by short shifting for traction (or maybe more short shifting because he was struggling with the rear of the car), so they gave him less fuel at the start. Or maybe he held a little in reserve to make sure he could use full boost if Nico got close enough to attack, whereas Nico went flat out just to try and catch him.

    #260350
    Avatar of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    @matt90 True.. I think the Williams are definitely under fueling, as evidenced by a lack of pushing when needing to pass (hence Massa tried a failing 3 stop in Barcelona and got mired mid-pack), but Hamilton seems to be able to go faster if need be, e.g. the last 3 laps, unless he’s just turned up the engine etc., so it’s less clear on the lead Mercedes.

    @freelittlebirds Not sure if I’ve seen it in an article, mainly I’ve heard it from Hamilton and Lowe on TV. Lewis might have written about it in his BBC articles as well. In the classic sense of our understanding of driving it may seem ‘slower’, but in reality, it’s just another style of maximising resources, one that happens to be just as fast or possibly even faster now in the current formula.

    @keithedin Makes sense to me, I also heard that Vergne, Sutil and Ericsson were losing extra time from carrying weight, roughly 0.3 per lap for Sutil with 15 kg. That really makes the difference between Vergne and Kvyat, while Sutil is still competitive with Esteban despite this big handicap! Ericsson would be even with Kobayashi as well.. I imagine the Sauber and Caterham have been lightened for Spain. Vergne is already practically out the door at Toro Rosso.

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