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F1 discussion

How does Red Bull get away with all the transgressions?

This topic contains 73 replies, has 19 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of raymondu999 raymondu999 1 year, 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 74 total)
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  • #132298
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    Just at the last race in India, Vettel put 4 wheels out of the track during qualifying and then there was talk about some part wearing down by more than 1 millimeter. Apparently, the steward in India thought that he didn’t gain an advantage and therefore he felt that the violation didn’t warrant a penalty.

    At the beginning of the season, they had other issues. On the track Vettel has his own rulebook that the FIA keeps just for him and it’s 1 page long with the name Vettel on it.

    I’m curious – how does a team secure this type of special treatment?

    #214058
    Avatar of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    Mind listing those “Vettel rulebook” incidents?

    I can’t think of any. And I think you’re overreacting… winning teams are always controversial, for one thing or another. But I don’t buy the “own rulebook” argument.

    #214059
    Avatar of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    Here are various examples of Vettel cutting the track in qualifying to gain an advantage, and no, the curbs aren’t a part of the circuit itself. Disappointed, I am.

    #214060
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    Well, here are some examples I can think of:

    1. Putting 4 wheels off at India
    2. Blocking Fernando at Suzuka in qualifying
    3. Passing Alonso at Monza 2011 (not sure about this one – were all 4 wheels off?)
    4. Pushing Button off the track at the start of a race in 2011

    To give a comparison, Lewis put 4 wheels off while qualifying at Hungary in 2012 and he scrapped the lap as he knew they would never count it (in his case). Why would Vettel ever think they’d count his lap?

    If Lewis had done 3 & 4, guaranteed drive-through penalties.

    #214061
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @kingshark – Doesn’t going off track automatically give an advantage as you can carry more speed out the corner? Obviously Webber deserved pole in India especially since Red Bull put him right in front of a McLaren to limit him to 1 lap.

    #214062
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds
    3. Passing Alonso at Monza 2011 (not sure about this one – were all 4 wheels off?)
    First of all, no he only had two wheels off the track. Secondly, regarding you “Lewis is penalized for everything!” statement, remember Bahrain this year? he overtook Rosberg with all four wheels off the track, but wasn’t penalized.

    Regarding his pole lap in India, then you will have to look at all the other qualifying laps, because I have a suspicion that a lot of other peoples did exactly the same.
    In which case it would be like in Monza at the exit of Ascari where drivers can leave the track completely but the stewards and the drivers have agreed that its fine.

    #214063
    Avatar of Force Maikel
    Force Maikel
    Participant

    I have taken a good look at his India pole lap and I counted 4 moments where he put 4 wheels outside the track. I can narrow it down to 3 because it has been accepted that you can run wide after turn 11. I’ve also taken a good look at other people’s laps and they don’t do it. we could be onto something interesting here.

    Just to be clear: Article 20.2 in the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations 2012. The kerbs are NOT considered to be part of the track. You may leave the track and rejoin if you don’t gain ANY advantage.

    #214064
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    Button told BBC it was agreed in the driver’s briefing they could take the curbs there.
    6 of the Q3 onboards show drivers doing this.

    #214065
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Mads
    If I recall correctly, the stewards couldn’t penalize Lewis in Bahrain without appearing to be completely biased as Rosberg had done the same to Alonso or another driver. Plus wasn’t Rosberg in violation of not leaving any room for Lewis so the transgression was a consequence of Rosberg’s illegal defending? The stewards can’t penalize a driver for a mistake caused by another driver’s mistake.

    I think we would know by now whether other drivers had also put 4 wheels off the track – those things don’t stay quiet.

    #214066
    Avatar of JPedroCQF1
    JPedroCQF1
    Participant

    If the kerbs are not considered part of the track, then FIA have to tell Tilke to make them narrower! They are more than a car’s width, it’s impossible to make drivers not use them to their advantage!

    #214067
    Avatar of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    Blame the FIA for letting those idiots in the design department at Tilke’s company build circuits that ALLOW that sort of thing.

    What’s the point of a kerb, that has it’s own kerb that’s higher and doesn’t penalizes you?. Why use tarmac instead of grass, right at the side of the racetrack?

    Have you seen anyone going wide at Variante della Roggia to try and gain an advantage? or Lesmo? And I don’t see any more risk having gravel traps instead of tarmac. If all the circuits were designed like Abu Dhabi, Suzuka’s esses would be almost straight on. Don’t blame the drivers for using parts of the tracks that benefit them.

    That 4 point list isn’t that long, nor it means that FIA treats Vettel in any way different than others. They are constantly making mistakes with every driver. Be it Hamilton, Maldonado or Alonso.

    #214068
    Avatar of katederby
    katederby
    Participant

    Going off topic, slightly but I think Vettel has had two reprimands , what were they for? Another will give him a grid penalty, which could be interesting.

    #214069
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Force Maikel

    Thanks for putting the regulation.

    Just curious, do drivers NOT gain an advantage when 4 wheels are off the track around a corner where they keep full control of the car?

    Is it likely that a driver can get Pole position and NOT have gained an advantage by doing so? Obviously if he had lost an advantage, he would have not gotten pole… but that type of logical thinking can be very dangerous:-)

    #214070
    Avatar of David-A
    David-A
    Participant

    At Monza 2011, 2 wheels were clearly on the track.

    At Suzuka 2012, I don’t really see what else Vettel should have done. He appears to go wide at the chicane to give the Ferrari room. I don’t even think he should have been reprimanded.

    #214071
    Avatar of raymondu999
    raymondu999
    Participant

    Yes the issue at Suzuka is that the track there is narrow, and he would have been counted as blocking whatever happened, unless he took to the grass.

    What we don’t see are the rear wheels in corner cutting. We see the fronts leave the circuit, but not when the rears do it. If the front tyres rejoin the circuit before the rear tyres leave the circuit, the manoeuvre is legal

    What the stewards look for is different lines. If every driver does it then they turn a blind eye.

    We need to remember that the teams police each other. If they felt a penalty was on THEY would have complained.

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