F1 Fanatic

You cannot compare drivers who raced in a time when if you went off the track there was a good chance that would be your last action with anyone in the last 20 years. Fans who are old enough to remember Jim Clarke know how good he was because no matter how much you read or watch some things need to be experienced and Clarke was one. I started watching just after his death and his supreme talent was never underestimated. To critisize one driver over another to try and undermine their achievements also does not work, drivers used to try and throw dirt and debris into the path of their rivals, teams were built one driver. It has all gone on before. Schumacher has just about ever record worth holding in F1 but he is hardly short of critics. Senna, because of his death has been placed near to sainthood even though as a driver he had many critics. 3 times champions like Piquet have been virtually forgotten about and when remembered the actions of his son are mentioned. Nothing has changed in the 40 plus years I’ve watched, only the names.

@Kingshark. We could argue about Suzuka 1990 forever, especially considering that Senna had mentioned even before he took pole, that the grid sides should be reversed. We all saw happened in 1989 Suzuka, and how he was screwed out of the world title, and honestly it was more of a retaliation than anything else. I cannot convince people that Senna’s 1st corner move was noble, and I do not intend to. It was definitely a shameful moment in his career.

BUT, you cannot compare them to Schumacher’s antics in Adelaide 94, and Jerez 97. They were two of the most despicable moments in recent F1 history, and to see him smile and celebrate after Hill’s retirement in Adelaide, pretty much sums up the kind of champion he is.

As I said, each person will have their own unique opinion on this.

I dont know how you can look at Schumacher’s move to Ferrari as a sign of greatness, when each and every one of his teammates at Ferrari were not allowed to race him, and just let him through each and every time. And it wasn’t a brave move or a risky decision to move to Ferrari in 96. They had acquired some of the best technical, managerial and political resources at Ferrari, and it seemed like quite a good decision even at that time.

There are things MSC did wrong. More wrong than quite a few of the champions he’s compared against. But the things he’s done right, are what has led to his records and his performances in at times average cars. Yes, Ferrari were already gaining momentum in the mid 1990′s but the team’s rise still required extraordinary levels of hard work and dedication from its lead driver to make it happen, which has been noted by guys like Murray Walker and Jackie Stewart in the past. His teammates didn’t “let him through each and every time” because MSC was usually too fast to be behind them. He is definitely amongst the all time greats.

Jim Clark’s surely one of the very best too. I can never appreciate how good he was, having never watched him live, like Schumacher, Alonso and Vettel. But he so often in his peak either won or had a car breakdown on his way to a win.

Pretty sure he means when Schumacher parked it at Rascasse in ’06.

I don’t hold Schumacher’s less desirable actions on track against him when considering his position as an all time champion. I don’t like the man but I can be objective. As you said Kingshark if you do that it would be hypocritical not to treat Senna the same way, and people like Prost and Piquet were themselves no angels.

I think the argument of Schumacher’s competition is more than valid, there is simply no way you will convince me that the likes of Damon Hill, Jacques Villeneuve and even Mika Hakkinen to a certain extent are of comparable talent to the competition Clark, Senna and Prost faced in their careers. Alonso and Raikkonen yes but Alonso was a match (although MSC’s desire must have decreased at that point) and Raikkonen was arguably unlucky not to win two titles in 03 and 05.

In my opinion I do not think there has ever been a more naturally talented driver in F1 than Jim Clark, great champions like Jackie Stewart and Graham Hill felt they could not get close to his talent on the track which speaks volumes in my opinion. I respect Schumacher’s achievements, his years from 96-2000 at Ferrari when he won his third title were probably the best in his career in my eyes, and in the years after he reaped the rewards of the years of hard work he put in but I don’t think he is the greatest driver ever.

@W-K your suggesting that 91 wins for Schumacher were the direct result of cheating?

I guess you also then suggest Senna, Prost, and even Clark never overstepped the rules?

It is generally accepted that Prosts collision with Senna in Suzuka was a desperate attempt at keeping Senna from winning the title. The subsequent Senna taking Prost out at the start of the next Suzuka race was also a definitive “revenge” collision.

So, to go along with your logic, you think that they should never be classified either?

To actually go back on topic, I think that Clark is very much in the top 5 F1 drivers of all time. My top 5 would have:

Fangio
Senna
Schumacher
Clark
Stewart

I pretty much agree with @dragoll