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F1 discussion

Marquez, Vettel and exceeding track limits

This topic contains 32 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Iestyn Davies Iestyn Davies 12 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 33 total)
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  • #239257
    Profile photo of andae23
    andae23
    Participant

    Just wanted to revive this discussion after Grosjean’s penalty in today’s Hungarian Grand Prix. If you would allow drivers to overtake while exceeding track limits, that wouldn’t work simply because there is so much tarmac on the edge of the track. For an example, turn 4 where Grosjean passed Massa: there is an enormous tarmac patch on the apex, while the outside if basically a pristine tarmac paradise.

    So in my opinion, they should replace the tarmac run-off areas with grass patches, at least the first meter on the outside of the track (also the ridiculous astroturf has to go). Then you can be a bit softer with the track exceeding regulations: it basically becomes the driver’s responsibility to judge whether keeping your foot in is the sensible thing to do. Of course if a driver cuts the corner completely, a penalty should still be handed to him.

    There is of course a safety issue: the tarmac is there for safety reasons, because the friction of the tyres with the tarmac surface is actually a really effective way to slow a skidding car down. That’s why I say the first meter or two alongside the track should be grass and further away from the track it should remain as it is right now: tarmac.

    Thoughts?

    #239258
    Profile photo of Kneyfield
    Kneyfield
    Participant

    @andae23 I think, that drivers should be able to overtake outside of track limits, BUT only where they are allowed to leave the track entirely.

    The corner where Grosjean got Massa is a place, where drivers got wide regularly and left the track with all four tyres, yet they didn’t get reprimanded or penalized for their actions. Should Grosjean get a penalty for doing the same, only because he gained a place?

    #239259
    Profile photo of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    I think the problem with Grosjean and Massa today, was that Grosjean had no other option if he wanted to avoid a collision. I don’t know if you’ve seen Sky’s analysis, but Massa’s front-wing was 2 inches off his tires. Even then, I personally think there should be some leniency and just count the kerbs as track, but that’s a matter of rules. Today, Grosjean was avoiding a collision, and I believe the stewards made the wrong call.

    #239261
    Profile photo of plushpile
    plushpile
    Participant

    @andae23
    Just wanted to revive this discussion after Grosjean’s penalty in today’s Hungarian Grand Prix. If you would allow drivers to overtake while exceeding track limits, that wouldn’t work simply because there is so much tarmac on the edge of the track. For an example, turn 4 where Grosjean passed Massa: there is an enormous tarmac patch on the apex, while the outside if basically a pristine tarmac paradise.

    So in my opinion, they should replace the tarmac run-off areas with grass patches, at least the first meter on the outside of the track (also the ridiculous astroturf has to go). Then you can be a bit softer with the track exceeding regulations: it basically becomes the driver’s responsibility to judge whether keeping your foot in is the sensible thing to do. Of course if a driver cuts the corner completely, a penalty should still be handed to him.

    There is of course a safety issue: the tarmac is there for safety reasons, because the friction of the tyres with the tarmac surface is actually a really effective way to slow a skidding car down. That’s why I say the first meter or two alongside the track should be grass and further away from the track it should remain as it is right now: tarmac.

    Thoughts?

    I think that 1-2 meters of grass on the verge of the track is an ideal solution. Not only does it prevent passes outside the boundaries of the track but it also prevents gaining an advantage by not respecting the track limits on a regular lap.
    It would also lead to better racing too as drivers would be punished for mistakes – when running wide at the moment they just use the run off and there’s no issue, if there’s grass in the way then they’ll have to make a decision, go wide onto the tarmac run-off or back off and stay within the track.

    Would love to see the impact on safety of having grass verges – if they’re too soft it just provides a cushion to roll.

    The other alternative that I’d like to see investigated is the Paul Riccard style blue and red zones – would these work for F1?

    #239262
    Profile photo of joeyz11
    joeyz11
    Member

    @andae23 That’s a really good idea.

    #239263
    Profile photo of Hairs
    Hairs
    Participant

    @andae23 The grass also causes a risk of cars digging in and flipping which is another reason they’re gone.

    #239264
    Profile photo of wsrgo
    wsrgo
    Participant

    After today’s qualifying session at Buddh, which saw quite a few drivers exceed track limits without getting a penalty, I’m afraid I have to say something…drivers in junior formulae are severely penalised for these misdemeanours. Not surprisingly, a few of them took to Twitter to voice their complaints..

    https://twitter.com/NickCassidy_/status/394076039112323072

    https://twitter.com/alexlynnracing/status/394050396681146368

    https://twitter.com/R_Marciello/status/394054218354806785

    Edited by moderator

    #239265
    Profile photo of the_sigman
    the_sigman
    Participant

    Lots of drivers did it. Especially in the penultimate corner and the exit of the second and third chicanes.

    #239266
    Profile photo of wsrgo
    wsrgo
    Participant

    @sigman1998 The question isn’t one of conformation. The question is, should it be allowed? It is one of the commonest form of misdemeanours in junior formulae and has been the most common cause for penalties. But if these drivers are indeed being trained for a possible future in F1, shouldn’t the top-flight lead by example?

    #239267
    Profile photo of the_sigman
    the_sigman
    Participant

    Ι just wanted to say that it wasn’t only 1 or 2 drivers that did it, but (almost) all of them ;)

    And you are absolutely right.

    #239268
    Profile photo of wsrgo
    wsrgo
    Participant

    Ah sorry, misunderstood you, @sigman1998

    #239269
    Profile photo of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    Just seen Vettel’s pole lap. Around 3 or 4 times he’s outside the white line, on the kerb.

    I’d imagine hanging on with at least 2 wheels on the track would make the lap considerably slower.

    They don’t do this at Suzuka…

    #239270
    Profile photo of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    I like how Whiting said “the drivers don’t gain any advantage from doing this, in fact they lose time”… if so, then why did Grosjean get a penalty for going 1cm off the track (still on the kerb), while leaving room for an understeering Massa at the fastest (and tightest) corner on the track at Hungary? Surely he didn’t gain an advantage by doing this then? There’s no logical consistency. As reported, junior formulae are stringent on this (as at the slower speed they go, it’s more advantageous to cut any length possible); it’ll be interesting to see what Charlie Whiting says tomorrow in the sky pre-show around this area.

    #239271
    Profile photo of Rajeev
    Rajeev
    Member

    And that penultimate corner is called cheaters corner
    in #Buddh

    #239272
    Profile photo of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    I think it’s a sad to see the best drivers in the world invent their own track like that. They have been allowed to, so I don’t blame them, but I just cannot buy into the argument that it isn’t an advantage, or some places is even a disadvantage. If that was the case, then the drivers wouldn’t do it, would they? Maybe here and there, sure. But practically everyone, consistently did it.

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