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F1 discussion

RB6 Flex wing Insights

This topic contains 13 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Patrickl Patrickl 4 years, 2 months ago.

Viewing 14 posts - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #128001
    Profile photo of Scribe
    Scribe
    Participant

    A simple RB6 insight, but I feel an okay one for something thought upon while in the shower, goes someway to explaining the RB6’s extreme flex especially compared to the Ferrari, an the design philosophy of the car.

    This flexi buisness, it’s clear from the design of the front wing that it was always designed with flexing in mind. If you look at the positioning of the cascades and the way the outer is clearly designed so that higher loading occurs on the outside of the wing, both pushing the outsinde of the wing down further but taking advantage of its lower height creating even more downforce at higher speeds.

    However all these extra winglets come at the cost of extreme drag all over the car especially when the wing flexes on long straights, worth it for the cornering speeds but also as a philosophy worth hiding from the other teams, hence Horners constant moaning about the Renault, we all know it’s rubbish but it’s a usefull smokescreen to hide the RB6’s sod the drag philosophy.

    A philosophy which on the modern f1 calender, a calender with all of 3 medium to low downforce circuits an a few inbetweeners, isn’t punished thanks to the highly modern wings on F1 cars which are incredibly efficient anyway, a philosophy that makes the car invincible on slow high downforce circuits and nigh on uncatchable on faster high downforce circuits though apparently not in the race, (Spain Germany Turkey etc)

    The loaded nature of the RB6’s wings also can help explain why Sebastians car swerved so violently on a fairly dry track, and why the wing rocked so violently when the loaded end came out into clean air. It’ll be interesting to see if Ferrari and McLaren, both of whom attempted to do as the did from 06 onwards an create a car for all seasons and tracks this year will now follow the RB6 philosophy of car design. Renault and Mercedes contenders next year will also be facinaiting, especially as both essentially spent this year recouvering from the chaos of the last. Mercedes has quite a few nice innovations on their car despite a rubbish concept, an the development rate on the Renault has been staggering, if they kick of on the right foot both will be major contenders.

    #143872
    Profile photo of RaulZ
    RaulZ
    Member

    I’m trying to find a source written in english to show this, but I can’t. Only a Spanish journalist talks about it. It’s about the flexy wing, that in the end, it doesn’t flex. It’s something that gives light to this issue but it’s so fantastic that I just tell you and yo rate it.

    A Ferrari photographer spy has the evidence of a spring in the flat floor of the RB6 that is the mechanism to get the wood floor down 5mm. I don’t understand how it works but it’s said that the driver had to activate it by a hit of the floor in a piano (piano? I mean the red and white border of the road) and then the position keeps for just a lap. :O

    Well, 5mm in the center of the car is like 8mm in the front and that means 1 s per lap.

    Ferrari denounced it before Monza and in Monza they didn’t have it. But then RBR begun to be a mortal and not a god.

    Could you please search for more information? I just don’t believe spanish media if there’s no more information.

    Thanks.

    #143873
    Profile photo of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    If that’s true Raul then that’s incredible, thanks for at least bringing it up.

    (By the way, “piano” – in English they’re “rumble strips” or “kerbs”/”kerbing”. I love how poetic “piano” sounds though!)

    Back to Scribe, it does look obvious the way the wing is made it’s meant to flex. Also I’ve noticed for a while now Horner says they “meet the tests” blah blah – he never says they don’t flex. It’s an open secret that the tests don’t simulate what happens out on the road and they need further tightening.

    Finally, I agree – McLaren and Ferrari have suffered from their usual all-rounder policy. Drag v downforce on all but maybe three tracks has the latter winning every time.

    #143874
    Profile photo of Scribe
    Scribe
    Participant

    Wow, I posted that a month ago and it is just full of gram/spell/layout slips. I’ll still go with it though. Just thinks, if the FIA hadn’t clamped down throughout the Redbull would still be whole seconds ahead.

    McLaren didn’t quite get the concept right this year so they’ll have to learn from that for next, but the rate of development was fantastic till they had to start going all radical, hopefull that bodes well for next year.

    I think the all-rounder policy comes from the 08 spec cars where winglets/bells could be added and droped per circuit, car characteristics are naturally more pronounced under less flexible regs, so it really does come down to the better philosophy combined with a development plan that actually knows where it’s going.

    #143875
    Profile photo of VettelS
    VettelS
    Member

    All I can say is good going Red Bull. Al this moaning from Ferrari and McLaren is ridiculous. Sure the wing flexes, but like Horner says, if it passes the test, there’s nothing wrong.

    Red Bull clearly started designing the car around cornering rather than straight line speed. Ferrari and McLaren went the other way, to an extent, and it pays off at low down force circuits. Obviously Red Bull got it right- they’ve had the best car all season.

    #143876
    Profile photo of Fer no.65
    Fer no.65
    Participant

    More goes to Red Bull fellas… other teams’ complains are as rubbish as Horner critizicing the Renault engine.

    #143877
    Profile photo of Melchior
    Melchior
    Participant

    From the beginning of the season there has been nothing but Whingeing particularly from the likes of McLaren’s Whitmarsh about the Red Bull.

    Newey must be a brilliant person.Look at the innovations that are on that car and how other teams race to copy them.

    The Red Bull RB6 was has a flexi front wing.So what,whether people agree or disagree it meets the test criteria set by the FIA.I personally disagree with the bending of the rules but…..

    #143878
    Profile photo of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    Here’s what I’m wondering – are flexi-wings banned in the rules and it’s simply the load tests that are inefficient, or do the rules say something like “the wings may not flex under a specified amount of load”? If it’s the former than it’s clearly rule-breaking. Kudos for exploiting a rule failing but the FIA have no excuse not to close it now.

    #143879
    Profile photo of Melchior
    Melchior
    Participant

    It must be a grey area.If the wings do flex the FIA load tests don’t prove that they do.So i suspect that there is nothing that the FIA can do about it without changing the rules and having a lot more stringent load tests on the wings.

    Next season we won’t see those wings flex more than a few MM.

    #143880
    Profile photo of Patrickl
    Patrickl
    Participant

    Flexing wings were banned after Ratzenberger died.

    If all teams have flexing wings there is no benefit from them anymore and only the added risk of wing failure remains. So the FIA and all teams decided not to use flexing wings. Now one team decides to go ahead and use flexing wings anyway.

    The FIA should really get rid of this nonsense.

    #143881
    Profile photo of Red Andy
    Red Andy
    Participant

    I think flexing wings have been illegal for quite a bit longer than that, Patrick. I heard something like 30 years. Could be wrong though.

    There is a rule that states that no aerodynamic part may move in relation to the sprung part of the car. So, if a body part flexes, it is technically against the rules.

    But it’s not enough to say “ZOMFG LOOK FLEXING,” it has to be supported by evidence. All these things have to have tolerances built into them, because in engineering it’s not possible (or, at least, not feasible) for a part to remain perfectly rigid all the time. The evidence the FIA currently uses is the load test – if a part passes the load test, it’s not flexing to any significant degree, hence it is legal.

    The FIA have changed load tests before to render a part illegal – such as Ferrari’s flexing floor in 2007. Now they have done so again, but the Red Bull wing still passes the test.

    All the teams are held to the same standard. Any other team could do exactly what Red Bull is doing now and get away with it. The only nonsense is that some teams still insist on bleating about a demonstrably legal part.

    Funny how there was no such thing as the spirit of the rules when we were discussing the F-duct, but now McLaren are more than happy to talk about it.

    #143882
    Profile photo of Scribe
    Scribe
    Participant

    Again it’s about the spirit of the regulations. Techinchally, the FIA decrease thou wings shall not stall thusly. However, F-Ducts didn’t exist before 2010. The FIA also says your wings shouldn’t be flexing and heres a test to make sure they don’t. Again, they hadn’t banked on the RB6.

    Redbull found a loophole and all kudos to them. However next year, everyone will have them and the advantage will be cut, as per usual with this kind of innovation. It all depends now one whether the FIA is going to do anything about it. The wings have been seen to wobble violently in certai situations, particularly during Vettle’s crash into Button and therfore could constitute an actual danger, it’s not worth more of these and it should probably be banned now, just like F-Ducts. Whether the FIA actually gets it’s act together is an interesting one. My heart says no they won’t.

    #143883
    Profile photo of GQsm
    GQsm
    Participant

    I think the wing must be built to flex when vertical load is combined with horizontal load. AFAIK the FIA tests are purely a vertical load placed on the wing when the car is stationary. The wing is therefore not subject to any Horizontal load which occurs as rearwards drag when the car is actually moving.

    A stationary test that comes to mind would be to use a cord to pull the wing both down and backwards while measuring the appropriate load being applied. Depending on how you position the machine used to apply the pulling force I guess you could use any angle from 100% vertical (180 degrees) to 100% horizontal (90 degrees). That should be able mimic the combination of vertical and horizontal load occurring when the car is moving.

    After seeing the Red Bull wing move around so violently in Button’s wake at Spa, I think it is better to just ban the flexing at the end of the season, than have most of the teams turn up with it on their car next year.

    #143884
    Profile photo of Patrickl
    Patrickl
    Participant

    @Red Andy

    “think flexing wings have been illegal for quite a bit longer than that, Patrick. I heard something like 30 years.”

    I wouldn’t know what was banned 30 years agon, but the flex load tests are a pretty recent invention.

    Ratzenberger’s crash showed how dangerous a wing failure is and when at the end of the 90’s cars started showing flex wings (and more wing failures), the load tests were introduced.

    “the Red Bull wing still passes the test”

    Which only goes to show how lame the current front wing load tests are. What’s your point?

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