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F1

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F1 discussion

Red Bull; Engine management & Silverstone

This topic contains 15 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of bluehawk bluehawk 3 years, 1 month ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 16 total)
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  • #129461
    Avatar of frazbox
    frazbox
    Participant

    if the FIA ban/ reduce the amount of exhaust gases flowing through the diffuser, i think this will be the have the same effect as in 2009 when they allowed the double diffuser. up until the point when only a few team were running it, Brawn was dominating that season, and now red bull have capitalized on blowing fumes in 2011. watching the BBC coverage, it was referenced in two different race (spanish and monaco gp) how this affected the exit speed in certain corners. in the last corner in the spanish gp, it was clear how much speed seb have exiting that turn. lewis even commented on it during the post race interview. again in monaco; the last corner before approaching the start/finish line, its effect are clearly noticeable that in both races, it was DRS and KERS that help the chasing driver keep up in pace with the red bull.

    if by silverstone, it is ban (and i really hope they ban it), i think mclaren and ferrari and probably rosberg will start to gain more points in the championship.

    i dont understand why alonso would make a statement that vettel will soon ‘rap up’ the championship, with another 13 races and 325points up for grabs.

    #169423
    Avatar of DavidS
    DavidS
    Participant

    Ferrari and McLaren are using blown diffusers as well. Banning it won’t magically make them faster while Red Bull gets slower.

    With regards to the double diffuser of 2009, it wasn’t the sole reason why the Brawn was dominant in the first half. Toyota and Williams also had a double diffuser, and were (as ever) off the pace. Even later in the season, the Brawn was still a competitive car.

    There’s a lot of elements that go into a competitive car, it’s not as simple as simply having the magic component. So a ban on blown diffusers won’t create much of a difference in the competitiveness of the Red Bull.

    #169424
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    But it will also slow the others down, so some of Red Bull’s advantage might be lost because they are said to use it better then the others, but i don’t think McLaren will be able to overtake them on pace. I hope they won’t ban it. They had the chance at the end of last year. It is not a safety issue, so leave it alone and wait for the end of the year because it is very unfair to change the rules mid season just for the sake of it. It has no purpose.

    #169425
    Avatar of MuzzleFlash
    MuzzleFlash
    Participant

    I think the EBD only really helps in slow corners; watching Alonso’s onboard camera while he was chasing Vettel yesterday, it seems Vettel was getting out of the slow corners much better while Alonso was sliding a bit, and this was on his old tyres. So even if it’s gone for Silverstone we may not see any effect until the Nurburgring.

    #169426
    Avatar of George
    George
    Participant

    There are a few slow corners at Silverstone, mostly preceeding long straights too, like Vale, Village, The Loop, Brooklands and Luffield. I’d expect the EBD to be especially effective in Vale and Luffield. And that’s ignoring that they’re off throttle at some points through the fast corners, I’d imagine it makes a pretty huge difference to laptime.

    #169427
    Avatar of frazbox
    frazbox
    Participant

    now this has become a hot topic going into the british grand prix. there is all the discussion on who most the new off-throttle ban will affect.

    #169428
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    mads: it is very unfair to change the rules mid season just for the sake of it. It has no purpose.

    It’s not a question of changing rules, but of clarifying the rules. It’s not like it’s written “We allow BDs” and they changed their minds now. no, the rules aren’t clear about that because they preceed the technology (particularly this off-throtle feature, which is triggering the ban).

    This cycle (Rule Making -> Technological inovation -> Technological inovation abuse by the teams -> FIA ban) is part of F1 and has happened many times in the past

    #169429
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    @LL Jehto They cannot ban something without making changes to the rules. An effective change or a clarification is the same. They still have to go into the rule book and edit that paragraph i.e changing the rules.

    What about F-duct last year? Double diffusors the year before? They were also interpretations, and FIA decided not to ban it. Why should some interpretations be allowed to live while others have to be shot down mid season? What fairness is there to that decision?

    I stand by my original statement, that changes to the rules that have nothing to do with safety shouldn’t be allowed.

    Because of the fact that it can be abused, and because it can, people will speculate whether it is because of that or something else. And those speculations are bad for the sport and for the credibility of FIA.

    F1 is a sport and the cars are designed around the rules that EBD are allowed, so that is what we race under in 2011. Then if FIA don’t like it they should either have made it clear from the beginning or wait until 2012 to ban it. That way we avoid the uncertainty, the speculations, the accusations, the extra costs involved in messing with the teams upgrade plans etc.

    #169430
    Avatar of LL Jehto
    LL Jehto
    Member

    you know, there are stuff in the regulations that are not related to safety.

    so, for you, no matter what the abuse of the interpretation being made (and the abuse is growing mid season – that’s why the changes are mid-season) let them push it, right? Hell, why to have regulation after all?

    #169431
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    @LL Jehto I don’t get it. The “abuse” of the regulations are not growing mid season. They had been growing since the middle of last year. If they clamp down on something as soon as it gets on the cars then i can somewhat sympathize with it, but all teams, except HRT have used a similar system since winter testing, and Red Bull the year before. It has been known for too long to do anything about it. Regulations are a part of the sport, but since it is a sport the rules shouldn’t change in the middle of the championship just for the sake of changing them.

    Isn’t innovations what we want? the hot EBD is that. And the sound it makes is absolutely brilliant. The current V8′s sound much better (in my opinion) then the V10s because of this system.

    And you didn’t really answer my question, what makes the hot exhaust blown diffuser different from the F-duct or double diffusers? Why is it that the hot EBD have to be banned when the other systems didn’t? They were also interpretations, abuse, cheating whatever you want to call it.

    #169432
    Avatar of Asanator
    Asanator
    Participant

    The rulles aren’t being changed to ban EBD’s, They are being banned under existing regulations as the FIA have now declared them a moveable aerodynamic device which are already banned (DRS aside).

    The Double Diffusers sat in a loophole in the regulations and therefore did not contravene any rules and couldn’t be banned mid-season and the same with the Blown rear wing. These loopholes were closed in the 2011 season regulations, which is why they can’t be used this season.

    Moveable aerodynamic devices can be banned mid-season on safety grounds which is what the FIA have decided to do with EBD.

    #169433
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    @Asanator But it wasn’t a movable aerodynamic device at the beginning of the year now was it? Otherwise HRT and Virgin had been fighting for the race win, since everyone else had been DQ’ed.

    The engine has always been a movable aerodynamic device. Since when the car is stationary the car has no downforce, but when it is going flat out in seventh gear they are creating huge amounts. Or when the driver turns, then the front wheels are angled, and that will change the aerodynamic face of the car i.e. a movable aerodynamic device.

    My point is, if a car is allowed to race, then every component on that car is legal and they shouldn’t be allowed to change that fact later in the season just because… yeah well because of nothing. Maybe to make F1 look a little green, but that is just ridiculous.

    #169434
    Avatar of Icthyes
    Icthyes
    Participant

    If I were a Vettel fan, I would be saying bring it on. The “excuses” for him doing so well would dry up if he continued to get win after win.

    #169435
    Avatar of Asanator
    Asanator
    Participant

    Hi Mads,

    Again I have to disagree, whether the car is moving or stationary the engine does not change the aerodynamics of the car whereas deliberately burning fuel in the exhaust and directing the hot air as they are doing now does. They are moving the aerodynamic properties of the car’s shape by ‘charging’ the air flow with the engine.

    I agree, it should have been banned pre season ideally but the idea was in it’s infancy, now the solutions are now becoming more and more extreme so banning it mid-season is a legitimate course of action.

    And lets be honest, the unnecessary burning of excess fuel is just wasteful, especially as up until this ‘device’, fuel efficiency had been a driving force in F1 and is probably more beneficial to everyone (especially the greenies) in the longterm.

    #169436
    Avatar of Mads
    Mads
    Participant

    @Asanator

    Yes the engine is changing the aerodynamics of the car. When it is stationary only the wind blows over it, when they open the throttle the car starts moving and the car cuts though the air, and that creates downforce. Also, albeit nitpicking, the engine heats up the engine cover and that changes the airflow over that part of the car, the engine exhaust also blows towards the rear of the car, no matter how you angle it, and that changes the aerodynamics of the car.

    They are not wasting fuel, they are using it to go faster. That is the point of F1. They all end up where they started anyway, it is just about covering as much ground as quickly as possible, and to do that you burn fuel. It is all just wasted.

    Sport is wasteful, but that is a part of the fun. To do something, just for the purpose of doing it.

    The wheels also changes the aerodynamics of the car, when they are moving and when they are not. It is a movable aerodynamic device. The whole car is a movable aerodynamic device. That is the point of downforce.

    FIA had their chance to change things at the end of last year, they didn’t. Bad luck for them. They shouldn’t punish the teams because they messed up.

    I don’t think mid season rule changes are fair to anyone, it is just not what the sport is about. It is about designing a car by the rule book and then racing it for a year while updating it, still by the same rule book. They shouldn’t change things in the middle of the season. That will punish the people who have been using the rules to their advantage, and give the people who have been playing safe an advantage. That is just not what F1 is about. It is about being creative, daring to go beyond the known limits and trying things out. Not about designing the cars like the FIA want them to.

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