F1

Dealing with off-track excursions

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  • #278690
    drmouse
    Participant

    It was raised again this weekend: Cars not being disadvantaged by going off track.

    There are many views on this.

    Some consider it a positive, because drivers are able to push closer to the limits without fear that a miscalculation will ruin their race. There are also obvious safety advantages to having large, tarmac run-off areas.

    Others consider it cheating, or making racing too easy. Some would prefer to see the return of gravel traps, grass and/or astroturf to dissuade drivers from exceeding the track limits.

    I will state my own opinion here from the outset: The track limits are the track limits, and drivers should always be disadvantaged by exceeding them. I have argued in the past for an automatic penalty if the driver was not obviously disadvantaged in a natural way (for example, a crash, or a spin, or something else which we can see from just watching the incident which negatively affects their race). However, I know I would prefer not to see penalties handed out willie-nillie.

    So, this weekend, I came up with an idea which, I believe, would be safe, feasible, and proportionate. I would propose that the cars be fitted with a device which can detect the car leaving the track, and impose a reduced power setting until they rejoin the track (and possibly a little after). This would penalise the driver, encouraging him to stay on the track. It would not penalise them too much, so still encourage pushing the limits. It would maintain safety, by keeping the tarmac run-off.

    The only real difficulty is in sensing that the car has gone off track, but I don’t think this is insurmountable.

    So, over to you guys. What’s your view on the track limits situation? What do you think of current methods to deal with it, and what of my idea?

    #278713
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    Your idea is good but there is an issue associated with it, as players of Assetto Corsa will know. Assetto Corsa cuts engine power when you go off track for 5 seconds or until you slow to 50 kph to prevent cheating. Great idea, but the problem is that balancing the throttle is a key part of saving a car in a slide. Cutting this power often results in an otherwise avoidable spin. Obviously you aren’t suggesting a complete cut of engine power but I’m sure there would still be a similar effect.

    My solution to the problem is to bring back the grass (or at least astroturf) and gravel – but keep the tarmac too. Basically there needs to be grass lining the edges of the track – even if it’s only a metre or two – to prevent drivers from using more road than they should. On the outside of corners this grass or astroturf should be wider to further penalise going off track. Gravel may be necessary here depending on the corner and how much run off is available, given that grass has little grip to slow down, particularly when wet. Finally, in order to maximise safety and practicality whilst still penalising drivers, the run off straight on from a corner can remain tarmac, along with a strip around the outside of the aforementioned grass and gravel to allow drivers to rejoin. Having it like this still penalises mistakes because it’s like run off on a street circuit: you have to make the decision between attempting to make the corner and risking finding the wall, or going down the run off and losing time.

    I think in some places they need to employ some kind of “penalty chicane” too, like at Turn 1 of Monza. Places that need this in my mind (assuming they don’t bring back gravel or at least grass) include the final chicane at Montreal, the second chicane at Monza and the Turns 5-6, 8-9 and 10-12 chicanes at Yas Marina. These are all chicanes, so the rule could be that if you don’t make the second apex (for whatever reason) you would be required to go through a tight “penalty chicane” in the run off area or face a penalty of some description.

    This isn’t perfect because there are still issues. For example, if the decision to cut is made very late it wouldn’t be safe to cut back across the run off to the penalty chicane, so maybe there could be a one lap grace which means drivers can go through the penalty chicane on the next lap. Also if a driver was forced off the teams will want to ask the FIA to review the incident and decide if a penalty needs to be applied.

    #278714
    Scottie
    Participant

    Why not grass-crete between the track limits and the tarmac run-off?

    I think it’d still provide a stable yet slippery run off for the sensitive cars, and not risk any catapulting of cars as they hit the tarmac run-off if the grass/dirt recedes from other cars going off…

    #278726
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    Why not grass-crete between the track limits and the tarmac run-off?

    I think it’d still provide a stable yet slippery run off for the sensitive cars, and not risk any catapulting of cars as they hit the tarmac run-off if the grass/dirt recedes from other cars going off…


    @scottie
    Yes well I think this makes for at least a ‘minimum’ solution. It doesn’t address cars that actually cut a corner though, like at most chicanes.

    #278735
    drmouse
    Participant

    balancing the throttle is a key part of saving a car in a slide

    I may be wrong, but I believe this is more down to ensuring you don’t have engine braking. Balancing the throttle in a spin is to make sure you neither spin the wheels nor lock them up, just keep them rolling as much as possible. A power limit would still allow this to be achieved.

    The problems with a thin strip of gravel/grass/etc are many. It means more chance of a spin, which can be dangerous, and is more likely to result in a race-ending crash. It doesn’t limit the car once past it, so could still allow an advantage (or lack of disadvantage) in some places. The border, particularly with grass and gravel, can be dangerous. With gravel, it can spray that gravel across the track.

    These sorts of problems pervade all physical solutions, which is why* my thinking headed toward a technical solution.

    *Also, because I am a technology freak.

    #278736
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    I may be wrong, but I believe this is more down to ensuring you don’t have engine braking. Balancing the throttle in a spin is to make sure you neither spin the wheels nor lock them up, just keep them rolling as much as possible. A power limit would still allow this to be achieved.

    Well that makes sense, so you’re probably right. Sounds like a good solution, although I can see it being controversial when someone is forced off (or has to go off to avoid another car or something). Then again F1 thrives on controversy so Bernie would probably see that as a good thing.

    #278737
    drmouse
    Participant

    I can see it being controversial when someone is forced off

    I would think that it would be no more controversial than any other method of discouraging going outside the limits. If someone is forced off, hits some slippery surface and spins, it would be worse.

    In the case of someone being forced off, we already have regulations to deal with that (hand the perpetrator a penalty).

    #278738
    VMaxMuffin
    Participant

    I would think that it would be no more controversial than any other method of discouraging going outside the limits. If someone is forced off, hits some slippery surface and spins, it would be worse.

    True. I guess everything in F1 is controversial :P

    #278774
    Steven
    Participant

    I was wondering why they couldn’t have one of those short ‘run-off’ roads like they do at Monza if you miss the braking point for the first chicane, where they have the styrofoam barriers which you need to go around slowly and definitely penalize the drivers in terms of time.

    This way, the driver pays for their mistakes, but it isn’t some penalty that needs to be applied by the stewards.

    Also, if the driver really messes it up, you see a spectacular collision with the styrofoam markers (as far as I know they’re not actually dangerous to drivers).

    I’d rather see something like this than a +5 sec. steward penalty, or any other steward penalty for that matter (unless they are continually running off track despite repeated warnings).

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