F1

Rosberg's Place In History

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  • #309099
    David-A
    Participant

    Nico Rosberg may or may not become World Champion in the future, but let’s just say for a second that he doesn’t. Should he go down as the best, or at least one of the best drivers never to win the title? I thought it would be interesting to hear everyone else’s opinions. In his favour are some of his achievements:

    – He has the most pole positions of any non-champion already
    – He is within 3 wins of equaling Stirling Moss for most wins by a non-champion
    – Only Moss has finished as runner-up in the championship more times without winning the title
    – He outscored Michael Schumacher for three years in a row
    – He’s a three times Monaco GP winner- more than any other active driver, including Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel.

    Where do you think he will rank (or already ranks) compared to the likes of Moss, Gilles Villeneuve, Ickx, Peterson and others?

    #309147
    Strontium
    Participant

    Although obviously the Monaco Grand Prix should really be 2-2 to Rosberg and Hamilton (what ifs don’t count), you definitely have a point!

    I don’t see why he shouldn’t be. It’s important to remember that last year, and arguably this year too, he took the challenge to Lewis Hamilton, who is regarded by most as one of the best drivers at current, and some regard him as an all time great. So to have come close to Hamilton is an astonishing achievement in itself.

    #309149
    R.J. O’Connell
    Participant

    At the going rate, Rosberg will be the greatest driver of the modern era to have never won the World Championship.

    #309150
    dragoll
    Participant

    I like your thought process and agree with your arguments, however, the rationale that Rosberg will be ranked amongst the best of the drivers never to have won a championship doesn’t sit well with me. In my opinion, this kind accolade should be reserved for drivers that never got their opportunity in a top team to show their skills, I think of someone like a Nico Hulkenberg or a Jean Alesi, these guys always seemed to be in the wrong car at the right time or the right car at the wrong time.

    As Nico Rosberg has had at least 2 seasons in a car that was the most dominant, by a large margin, and played 2nd fiddle to Lewis, I don’t think you can add his name to that list.

    #309152
    Matthijs
    Participant

    I think eventually he will be ranked amongst Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa, David Coulthard. Close to becoming world champion but not quite.

    #309156
    GeeMac
    Participant

    I have to agree with both @dragoll and @matthijs, it doesn’t feel right to include Rosberg in the group of the “best drivers never to have won a world championship” simply because of the manner in which he has been beaten to date. He is much more of a Barrichello, Irvine, Webber or Coulthard than a Moss, Villeneuve or Peterson. He gave it his best last season of that I have no doubt, but I can’t help but think that he never really had the pace to beat Hamilton and take the title. His meke performances earlier this season gave the impression that he still didn’t quite have enough.

    He seems a lovely chap and his performances earlier in his career make him deserving of a spot in a top team, but I just don’t think he has what it takes to be (a) a world champion or (b) in the “best who never” category.

    Though because I’ve said that, he’ll probably walk the title next season. ;)

    #309158
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    or at least one of the best drivers never to win the title?

    I’d say no because there are many drivers who have never won a title who surely deserve one and imo are better than him. Those you named yourself; Ickx, Villeneuve, Peterson, Moss but also more recently Montoya and Kubica. Driver ratings is and always will be subjective of course.

    #309166
    Nick
    Participant

    I’d call him one of the best drivers not to win a title of the current era, but only when this era is over and Hulkenberg and Grosjean never get a go at a top team. At the same time, history usually isn’t kind to drivers who finish second and weren’t that popular during their careers. Villeneuve was and still is a hugely popular driver and could have won the 1979 title, but no other season had him so close. It’s mainly the fact he hasn’t won more than he did (but he so obviously had the talent for it) that adds to his legacy. Drivers like Moss and Ickx have many accolades outside of F1, leaving it more at a ‘it’s a shame they never won an F1 title’-sentimental type legacy.

    Rosberg meanwhile has by and large always scored to his best and it hasn’t been enough. He never got close to the title in the second best (or worse) car like Schumacher in 1998, or Raikkonen in 2003 or even Alonso in 2012. I think of him more as a driver who would have won the title under different circumstances, someone like Berger, Webber or Ralf Schumacher (minus his Toyota days). He might need to either win the title or have another close season like 2014 before his profile is boosted any more than his current general perception.

    #309168
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    Let’s turn this around, if he wins the 2016 title because Lewis suffers unbelievable reliability alongside another on-off relation with Paris Hilton, is he a worthy champion? Would you reckon he deserves to be a one time Formula One champion?

    #309170
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    He’d be a valid one time winner in 2016, like Button in 2009; with the tyres kept pumped up, he has a good chance to really ruffle Hamilton and do it. Lets also see what happens when Vettel/Ferrari is pressuring Mercedes hard (another 1986?). With a Verstappen move to RBR and how the 2017 rule set could match up with a Honda and RBR-Renault-?? resurgence, it could be his best/last big chance.

    #309167
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    There could be a good comparison with Montoya and Ralf Schumacher, but it’s fair to say that Hamilton & Rosberg have been more impressive over a longer time-span; the comparison really only fits 2013, i.e. without dominant equipment, but a fighting chance, especially in qualifying.

    Using total GP wins, Moss on 37 is basically the Hamilton of his day, who lucked out of 2008 and retired after Silverstone 2013. Considering Villoresi on 23 as ‘1947 champion’, we get: Reutemann 14, Coulthard, Rosberg 13, (Fagioli) Behra 12, (Rosier/Hawthorn) Ickx, Barrichello, Massa 11, (Parnell) Gonzalez, Peterson, Berger 10.

    It’s interesting how Hawthorn fits in, if Moss wins 1958 (the Button/Massa of his day?). I consider Reutemann unlucky not to be 1981 champion, so yes, Rosberg should have the most wins of a ‘non-WDC’ by next year IMO. What about Hamilton/Rosberg vs. Senna/Berger?

    However, a more interesting comparison appears – Fangio 48, Hamilton 43 vs. Rosberg 13, Gonzalez 8. Gonzalez has a very high podium rate, yet was always in Fangio/Moss’ shadow and didn’t start a lot of races, like Kubica. He did win Ferrari’s first race though, just like how Nico won China 2012 and Kubica Canada 2008.

    However, with the tyres being pumped up since Singapore, things are shifting back towards Nico – Lewis was 0.3 faster before, while Nico is 0.1 faster since. If it stays on this trajectory and Ferrari improve for 2016, it’s hard to say who of Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg will win..

    PS. Even if Rosberg doesn’t win, he’ll have a long way to go to top Fagioli.. the only F1 race he didn’t finish on the podium was Monaco 1950, when a freak wave landing on the track caused a Spa 1998 lap 1 pile up.

    A famous pre-war driver for Maserati (and both Mercedes and Auto Union), he received team orders to let Caracciola win in ’35, although ’34 might be his (no points table). In his last race, he handed over to Fangio, who then won, making him the oldest race winner ever at 53. Truly the Barrichello of his day..

    #309184
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @xtwl

    Let’s turn this around, if he wins the 2016 title because Lewis suffers unbelievable reliability alongside another on-off relation with Paris Hilton, is he a worthy champion? Would you reckon he deserves to be a one time Formula One champion?

    If Raikkonen, Button, Villeneuve and Hill deserve to be a 1 time World Champion, then there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that Rosberg deserves to be World Champion. What do the former 4 drivers have which Rosberg doesn’t? I will go on a limb and say that Rosberg is probably faster than all of them, but not as lucky with the circumstances he finds himself in. As soon as he has the car to become WDC, he has Hamilton as his teammate.


    @matthijs

    I think eventually he will be ranked amongst Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa, David Coulthard. Close to becoming world champion but not quite.

    As someone who has seen both Rosberg and Irvine drive, you cannot possibly be serious when you put Irvine and Rosberg in the same tier. Rosberg, IMO, is faster and more consistent than Barrichello, Massa, and Coulthard; and exponentially better than Irvine.

    #309185
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @david-a

    – He has the most pole positions of any non-champion already
    – He is within 3 wins of equaling Stirling Moss for most wins by a non-champion
    – Only Moss has finished as runner-up in the championship more times without winning the title
    – He outscored Michael Schumacher for three years in a row
    – He’s a three times Monaco GP winner- more than any other active driver, including Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel.

    I’d like to add one more thing:

    – Between 2008 and 2012, Rosberg lead 108 laps and scored 7 podiums, including a pole position and a win in China, with cars that always finished between 4th and 8th in the WCC (in other words, midfield cars).

    You know what his teammates (inc. Schumacher) achieved with the exact same cars during the same period of time? Absolutely nothing.

    #309186
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    Then you’d say Barichello, DC and Webber would also be rightful one time champions, at least.


    @Kingshark
    , You’re abit blunt on Kimi there. Before 2012 everyone was full of praise for the man. He simply is no longer his younger self but still was a very fast and respectable champion.

    #309189
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    @kingshark Agree on your placing of Rosberg ahead of Coulthard, Barrichello, Massa, with a gap back to Irvine. In a way, Hamilton-Rosberg is a bit like Alonso-Raikkonen in the mid-2000s.


    @xtwl
    Interesting to note the comparison between Kimi in the hybrid era and Schumi’s comeback. Poor first year, improving second year, better last year?

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