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F1

Public Group active 14 hours, 40 minutes ago

F1 discussion

Rule for “Free Passes”

This topic contains 46 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Dave Dave 1 year, 9 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 47 total)
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  • #216157
    Avatar of Ads21
    Ads21
    Participant

    OK, hold my hands up I was wrong. I’ve just watched the Schumacher pass again and the incident was completely different to how I remember it and wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought it was.

    #216158
    Avatar of Hotbottoms
    Hotbottoms
    Participant

    @ads21
    I remember several Alonso (or Ferrari) fans playing with the idea that some drivers, such as Hamilton, might let Alonso overtake them in Brazil easily because “the drivers think Alonso deserves the championship”. But when Schumacher allowed Vettel pass, some of those people became angry.

    Vettel didn’t really need to overtake Schumacher to claim the championship. Also, Schumacher might’ve let Vettel overtake simply because the track was damp and he didn’t want to risk finishing in his last Grand Prix (by colliding with a championship contender).

    Regarding Toro Rosso maneuvers, I think there is little to be done in order to prevent them whether we like them or not. I doubt there were any radio messages in which Toro Rosso drivers were told to move, they simply know what’s the name of the game – they’ve better odds getting a seat in RBR if they don’t spoil Vettel’s championship chances in the final race of the season. These situations can’t be prevented simply by making Toro Rosso an “independent” team as long as drivers from Red Bull’s junior programme are driving for them.

    There are other situations also in which drivers might not want to do their best for various reasons – was Pic really trying to classify better than Petrov in Brazil? Was his spin trully unintentional? I’m not saying there was anything to it, I’m just making an allegory.

    So whether we think Toro Rosso drivers’ actions were immoral, I doubt rules can prevent situations like that. For the same reason team orders were allowed again – banning them wasn’t effective at all.

    #216159
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    If you look at Raikonnen all the passes he makes are “difficult” passes. No one really yields for Kimi which is why he has learnt to be very careful when he passes.

    Some drivers get “easier” treatment on the track at least from my eyes and I could be wrong about that. I don’t know what the overall advantage is but for top drivers if they retire it usually costs them about ~10-15 points per race. I imagine that advantage can add up to 20-30 pts over the season.

    It just feels like a huge freebie to have!

    #216160
    Avatar of Pelican
    Pelican
    Participant

    Yeah, it’s definately an unfair advantage to Red Bull to have the free passes from Toro Rosso. But I don’t know how a rule against it would be enforced, since a midfield driver might want to let a front-runner breeze rather than lose time delaying the inevitable. Of course, the way Vergne parked his car in the yellow flag video is something else entirely… THe best way to stop it is to ban any one person or entity from owning to teams, so Toro Rosso would have to be sold to an independent owner–but who wants to buy a middling F1 team in this economy?

    #216161
    Avatar of raymondu999
    raymondu999
    Participant

    How do you police it? The difference between a free and a non-free pass would inevitably be the free will behind it. How do you police that? Thoughtcrime, anyone? Lol.

    #216162
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    Well, the FIA is very good at dealing with subjective penalties – I’m sure they could handle this one too.

    Everyone knows a free pass when they see it but I see your point – the stewards may be inconsistent.

    Eventually, free passes except for teammates would disappear because it could affect both drivers’s races …

    Why risk the entire race for a pass that you’ll make anyway?

    #216163
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds
    Considering many people claim every overtake of a Red Bull on a Torro Rosso this year was a ‘free pass’, it is obviously not that simple ;-)
    The problem, which is always convienently ignores by the Red Bull-haters, is that backmarkers very often don’t care to fight with front runners if they know it will just lose them time themselves. But that’s not what people care about, because all they care about is finding sticks to beat Red Bull and Vettel with.

    #216164
    Avatar of AdrianMorse
    AdrianMorse
    Participant

    @mnmracer,

    The problem, which is always convienently ignores by the Red Bull-haters, is that backmarkers very often don’t care to fight with front runners if they know it will just lose them time themselves.

    That’s right. For instance, in the footage and the yellow flag overtakes, the first thing we see is an HRT moving completely out of the way between turns 1 and 2 (much quicker than in Austin! :-), actually the HRT driver time. I think many drivers were keen not to get in the way of the championship contenders in the final race, in such treacherous conditions. Also, if Alonso had been the one coming back from the field, I don’t think the Toro Rosso drivers would have given him a hard time.

    #216165
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @mnmracer

    No doubt, Torro Rosso is a big issue especially now that there are likely 22 cars as opposed to 24. The way things are there are no consequences for giving a free pass. Horner even has thanked Schumacher for letting Vettel through so if you still don’t believe that was a free pass, just watch Schumacher being overtaken by anyone else.

    Before the season has started Vettel and Webber enjoy a significant point advantage over anyone else without even taking the car/team into account.

    #216166
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    For instance, there is the rule that you can’t pass anyone off track and we’ve seen how many times someone will accidentally go off-course overtake the car behind them and then have to give the position back. The drivers know that you simply cannot do that!

    Just the existence of a penalty would give Torro Rosso and Red Bull (since they are the ones we focus on) second thoughs about giving a free pass. After all, JEV doesn’t want to screw up Vettel’s championship by letting him pass. Since Torro Rosso and Red Bull are owned by the same company, they should fight EVEN harder on the field for position to disprove anyone who may think that they are in cahoots.

    The point is that the threat of a penalty would make people think twice and it wouldn’t be as blatant as it is today. It would give pause and where Seb just jumps in to pass Jev, he might to have wait a lap…

    #216167
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds
    You have told yourself that TRs let Red Bulls through, so every overtake of a RB on a TR you will perceive as a ‘free pass’. You are so blinded by your bias, everything you see, you see everything only within the context of what you believe.

    You have lost any ability to think and judge clearly, and only ask yourself at anything that happens: “how does this confirm my [grounded and unchallengeable] belief that Red Bull is an evil and manipulative team?”

    It is the exact same thing with Alonso and the perceived horrible Ferrari. You know that you have lost all touch with reality when people still claim that Alonso has always extracted the maximum out of every race, when Felipe Massa has shown this to be factually untrue.

    #216168
    Avatar of crr917
    crr917
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds

    For instance, there is the rule that you can’t pass anyone off track and we’ve seen how many times someone will accidentally go off-course overtake the car behind them and then have to give the position back. The drivers know that you simply cannot do that!

    Hamilton in Bahrain?

    #216169
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @ccr917

    Hamilton in Bahrain?

    lol, I know! I was worried Hamilton would unfairly get a penalty as it’s a 90% chance he gets a penalty when there’s a racing incident or 50-50 blame.

    Thankfully, Rosberg did it again against a more syndicated driver and was kind enough to do it quickly before the stewards decided:-)

    I’m sure Hamilton breathed a sigh of relief after that thinking “there they go again…”

    #216170
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @mnmracer
    I don’t think they let them through – they just provide less resistance. But you see that with other drivers too. Look at how difficult the passes are for Raikonnen or Hamilton – everybody tries to be Fangio when they are around them… It IS inevitable that they will eventually pass but the other driver still blocks like a madman trying to ruin the other drivers race. What for???

    At Abu Dhabi, the only resistance Vettel had were Grosjean and Button and Button defended somewhat but I think the position warranted more defense…

    #216171
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    Look at how difficult the passes are for Raikonnen or Hamilton

    Have you got anything for me to look at?

    For the record, if you think passing in a Red Bull is easy at any point, watch the first few laps of Brazil again and notice how even a Marussia was pulling away from him on top-speed.

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