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F1 discussion

Should Ricciardo receive equal treatment with Vettel?

This topic contains 30 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Boris Boris 11 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 31 total)
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  • #241299
    Avatar of Sri Harsha
    Sri Harsha
    Participant

    @raymondu999 A Bloody well written Point mate. :)

    #241300
    Avatar of raymondu999
    raymondu999
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds Also – that is not a factual example, that is hypothetical – ie, a “what if” rather than a historic example.

    what if = hypothetical
    let’s take a look at what happened in the past = factual

    Back on topic – should Ricciardo be given equal treatment? Personally I’m a fan of the Audi way of doing things in DTM. Give them equal treatment at the start. If by halfway there is a guy who clearly is more consistent and faster, then support him.

    Other than team orders, and a wing which Mark Webber said to his team he wouldn’t use anyways – there has been no proof whatsoever of Mark Webber getting lesser hardware.

    #241301
    Avatar of raymondu999
    raymondu999
    Participant

    Liuzzi’s take:

    Daniel is a fast driver and it makes sense for Red Bull after they’ve spent so much money in the development programme to choose him. It’s the more obvious decision.

    Comparing him with Vettel, I think he can be competitive. Where Vettel was when he was my team-mate in 2007 is where Daniel was as well when he was my team-mate in 2011. Now, Sebastian is three-time world champion. I don’t think there is another obvious choice.

    At HRT in 2011, Daniel was all right. But, and it was the same for Vettel, when he did the first race he’d already driven so many kilometres.

    Daniel struggled a bit at Silverstone [in 2011], then had a few good races, and then struggled again. But overall, he was pretty similar to when Vettel started with me at Toro Rosso.

    The Red Bull is still the best car in F1, so I’m sure Daniel can show a good performance.

    #241302
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    It’s very simple: if Vettel was favored by Red Bull, would they have given him as many team orders as they have given Webber? Red Bull does equal treatment to a fault.

    #241303
    Avatar of Keith Collantine
    Keith Collantine
    Keymaster

    @raymondu999 Where’s the Liuzzi quote from?

    @mnmracer

    It’s very simple: if Vettel was favoured by Red Bull, would they have given him as many team orders as they have given Webber?

    Exactly.

    #241304
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    Next thing we’ll be hearing is that Helmut Marko is the head of the Driver Equality Department at Red Bull.

    Or that Horner’s meeting agendas go as follows:

    1. Discussion of Driver Equality – 60% of the time
    2. Discussion of Safety – 30% of the time
    3. Time Permitting, Performance and Strategy

    Don’t make me laugh guys! There’s zero equality in F1 even at McLaren so stop deluding yourselves…

    People make different salaries, get different teams, the car is designed to favor one driver over the other and the team works towards the goal of crowning a single champion… And we haven’t even hit the “soft” differences. So no, nyet, non, nein, oxi, iie to equality…

    #241305
    Avatar of MazdaChris
    MazdaChris
    Participant

    If you don’t think it’s actually possible to treat two drivers equally, why bother starting a discussion on whether or not Red Bull should treat their drivers equally next year?

    #241306
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @MazdaChris
    Because in Ricciardo’s case I don’t think he should be treated equally against Vettel just the same way that Barcelona doesn’t treat Fabregas equally with Messi. They are both great strikers but Messi simply scores a lot more…

    If you ask me today, I would say that Webber also does not deserve to be treated equally with Vettel but that statement is dependent on Vettel’s superior results over the past 3 years many of which came about because of a combination of inequality and superior performance by Vettel over Webber. I can’t separate the two at this point but obviously winning the WDC and the WCC are compelling arguments that Vettel should be given preference and were it my team, I’d have soft pillows for Vettel everywhere:-)

    I do believe that Webber is a much better driver than the current results show.

    #241307
    Avatar of MazdaChris
    MazdaChris
    Participant

    But by your own definition no two drivers can ever be treated equally, making the whole question irrelevant. You might as well ask whether people think that Red Bull should send both their drivers to the moon.

    #241308
    Avatar of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    It’s absolutely hilarious to think that the people who are defending Red Bull and claim that Vettel and Webber have been treated “equally” somehow, are often the same people who attack Ferrari for not giving Massa the same opportunities as Alonso, without any good evidence behind it (I don’t want to call out any names, but you probably know who you are).

    With that being said, I want Ricciardo to challenge Vettel, Webber hasn’t been anywhere near consistent enough to be a top driver. Daniel is consistently fast in qualy, and can set in a few amazing one-laps when they matter the most. Also, in races he’s been mostly compromised by the start on the used tyre regulation, which has allowed JEV to look better against him then he really is. My take is that Dan will score maybe 70-80% of Seb’s points tally in 2014.

    #241309
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Mazdachris
    You are right – no two drivers can be treated equally. Even Senna and Prost were probably not treated equally – the pendulum swung one way for sure but it may have been imperceptible and immaterial. E.g. When a car’s front to rear weight ratio is 49% vs 51%. Can you really tell?

    If you ask me about Red Bull, I would say Vettel had preferential treatment since the start because he was their long-term star driver. I would put it at 55% to 45% through 2010. After Turkey 2010 and Valencia 2010, it got progressively skewed for obvious reasons.

    I’m not blaming Red Bull for it because like I said I would have done the same were I in Horner’s shoes and to be honest even Webber would have done the same if he was team principal.

    #241310
    Avatar of raymondu999
    raymondu999
    Participant

    @keithcollantine it’s from the latest Autosport mag mate, out September 05 2013

    #241311
    Avatar of Cyclops_PL
    Cyclops_PL
    Participant

    It’s obvious equal treatment throughout the whole season is impossible. It’s rather a question of giving a driver better treatment from the very beginning, be default. It’s also the question how these inequalities are handled. It’s ok to treat drivers evenly up to a point when one is clearly in front and deserves to have the full potential of the team put to his car. But the other man deserves to hear it straight to his face and thoroughly explained how this will be done. Imagine Horner saying to Webber “Listen Mark, you are significantly behind Seb in WDC, you had your chances, and now we need to focus our efforts on the leading car. You will be getting upgrades a bit late and we will ask you to help Seb on track.”

    It would also be good to establish ground rules at the beginning of the season up to which point drivers are treated equally. Be it half way through the season or when the gap in WDC is larger than 40 pts, doesn’t matter. What matters is to have such rules clearly established so none of the parties involved would have valid reasons to be upset and throw tantrums with glasses during press conferences.

    Getting back to the main question: I think Ricciardo is in a difficult position. Being paired with triple World Champion means he actually needs to deserve his equal treatment. Giving Seb no 1 status is self-explanatory here. On the other hand, how on earth can Ricciardo prove he’s worth equal footing, if he’s given inferior equipment and less effort from the team? I think he will end up as forever-number-two. The Felipe Massa of Red Bull.

    #241312
    Avatar of
    Anonymous

    “Should Ricciardo receive equal treatment with Vettel?”

    This was the original post, yet it has lowered back to Mark V Seb again……………………….. I am bored with it and despite my instinct to react to some anti-Aussie posts I prefer to move forward…………. and we all should!

    Daniel Ricciardo is a real F1 talent- full stop!! This is not to say guys like Nico Hulkenburg, Paul Di Resta, Pastor Malonardo, Sergio Perez, Jean-Eric Vergne, Jules Bianncia (et alt) are not!

    What I am saying is that Dan GOT the drive and we now need to see if he is the deal- too many people are so negative on this!!! Same with Sergio last year- a bit different as we didnt expect the great McLaren to slip back as much.

    The same “treatment” and same “machinery” is not the same. Dan WILL get the same car as Seb (excluding a few “tweaks” but NOT the same treatment!!) Not any surprise here really hey??

    Massa has the same car as Fernando over the past 4 years, but has he got the same “treatment”??
    NO- but if he had maybe poor Phillipe had he would be more confident now- I have seen Massa go from a dominent F1 champion (not WDC) to a “yes man” and that is not good for anyone…………….. but Alonso!

    #241313
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Garns
    I do agree about Felipe – it’s sad to see him in this situation. I would have preferred it if he had taken P2 at Monza instead. I think that might have blown more life into his career than letting Alonso past him.

    He needed to assert himself against Alonso by beating him in quali and in the race at Monza. That’s the statement he needed to make.

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