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F1 discussion

The better car-argument

This topic contains 24 replies, has 16 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of AdrianMorse AdrianMorse 2 years, 3 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 25 total)
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  • #131621
    Profile photo of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    Despite the title, I did not start this topic to start an argument perse. Rather, I want to try and understand why and how people feel regarding this subject, so please, discuss with that in mind and let this not become a “who’s better” thread.

    There are a lot of different things influencing the speed of a Formula One car, today maybe even more then ever before, but generally a combination of factors can give a pretty good indication, and from that, an indication can be gotten of how well the driver performed.

    One thing that stand out though, is that whenever it concerns either Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, or Sebastian Vettel, for many people the argument has gotten extremely black-and-white: if Alonso/Hamilton wins, people applaud them for their legendary drives. If Vettel runs of to a victory, he has done well but it is actually all down to the Red Bull being the fastest car.

    No matter the circumstances, when Vettel wins, it’s always the car.

    Thus, it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The believe is that Vettel is not as good a driver, thus when he wins it must be the car. The believe is that Alonso/Hamilton are the best drivers, thus when they win, it is their talent.

    So my question is, why? How?
    Why do you always believe that Vettel only delivers results if he has the fastest car? Even if his team-mate is not showing similar pace?
    How come you believe that a victory from Alonso/Hamilton is by default down to talent, even when Massa is closer than usual and/or Button is also up there?
    Why is it by default unfathomable that Vettel might just be that good that in an equal or slightly faster car, he can pull 20 seconds from the field, but do you believe it possible for Alonso/Hamilton to do it on talent?

    Again, I am not looking for another debate on ‘who’s better’, I am merely trying to understand this self-fulfilling prophecy that many people seem to believe in.

    #204860
    Profile photo of the_sigman
    the_sigman
    Participant

    I believe this is because Formula 1 is more popular in England, Italy and maybe Spain than Germany where people support Michael Schumacher. So when Hamilton, Alonso win the people of the countries I said before say that their drivers are the best won because of their abilities. Also, I can’t understand why those who will fight for the championship this year are Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel as all the people say and not Webber.

    #204861
    Profile photo of AdrianMorse
    AdrianMorse
    Participant

    Some circumstances that conspire against Sebastian:
    1. He makes it look too easy. Many of his victories have come from pole, and he has been able to control the gap to the people behind. Races where the winner comes from further behind and has to make moves on track are more appreciated by the fans. If you look back at the wins of Alonso and Hamilton since the ‘rise’ of Vettel (and there haven’t been that many), they often involved heroic drives in inspiring races (for the lead but also further down the field), such as Valencia 2012, China 2011 or Canada 2010.
    2. He has had the best car, for most of the time, since around Silverstone 2009, in particular one that could not often be challenged for pole, resulting in an ‘easy win’ (see point 1).

    Why is it by default unfathomable that Vettel might just be that good that in an equal or slightly faster car, he can pull 20 seconds from the field, but do you believe it possible for Alonso/Hamilton to do it on talent?

    This can only refer to last week in Valencia. For one, Alonso and Hamilton never pulled out 20 seconds in a single stint, and I’m not sure anyone believes it possible that they can. Second, I do not believe Sebastian became, overnight, 1.5s a lap faster than anyone else in a field of very talented drivers. Of course, there is the tyre management factor to take into account these days, so it could be down to him being better able to exploit 2012 Pirellis around the streets of Valencia, but still, his Red Bull was clearly in the zone whereas the McLarens were not.

    #204862
    Profile photo of the_sigman
    the_sigman
    Participant

    I agree with you @adrianmorse

    #204863
    Profile photo of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    Adrian;
    Just to understand, what did you find particularly heroic about the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix, which Lewis won (in Vettel-style) from pole position?
    Similarly, in the 2011 Chinese Grand Prix, Lewis was second after the first corner and had a tire strategy that helped him set a lot of fast laps. Why do you not consider the input of the car or strategy there? Lewis in his last stint took a lot of time, similar to Vettel in Valencia.

    What I’m saying is, you mention two races that were won in a style very similar to Vettel’s. How do you consider them different, is what I would like to understand.

    #204864
    Profile photo of Karthikeyan
    Karthikeyan
    Participant

    Vettel will never win a race by coming from behind, because no matter what his car does not have the straight line speed to breeze past any other car, barring Caterhams and below. Over-takes don’t happen in the corners, because as evidenced from Valencia the lead driver can just run you off the track. One thing the current season has proved is that you can only push as far as the tyres allow. The fact he had a 20 second advantage and only pitted on the same lap as Grosejan means he is a better driver, not that he had a better car. Controlling the gap means he has a reserve potential, again not a better car.
    Read the comments in the following article from this very site – http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/09/14/sebastian-vettel-brushes-title-rivals-aside-to-win-at-monza-2008-italian-grand-prix/
    And just when he becomes a championship contender, its all down to the car, pretty lame to assume that

    #204865
    Profile photo of AdrianMorse
    AdrianMorse
    Participant

    @mnmracer, first of all, Canada 2010 was an inspirational race – literally, because that is the reason the Pirellis were made not to last. Second, although Hamilton started from pole and won the race, his win was not Vettel-like in the sense that he controlled the gap throughout, seemingly unperturbed by those behind him. After less than 10 laps, I believe Vettel was right on his gearbox as Hamilton’s options started to grain badly whereas Vettel’s primes were still in reasonable shape. Then, he dropped behind Alonso in the pit stops and had to overtake him on track (aided by a backmarker getting in the way of Alonso, it has to be said, but still it was an overtake for the lead). Also, he was battling Webber who was leading on a different strategy that could have turned interesting if RBR hadn’t kept Webber out for too long, and then made him do a long final stint. Only at the end of the race did it become clear that the tyres were going to hold, but I (and many others) had been on the edge of my seat for well over an hour by then.

    #204866
    Profile photo of S.J.M
    S.J.M
    Participant

    Vettel will never win a race by coming from behind, because no matter what his car does not have the straight line speed to breeze past any other car, barring Caterhams and below. Over-takes don’t happen in the corners, because as evidenced from Valencia the lead driver can just run you off the track.

    @Karthikeyan sorry but thats rubbish. Overtakes can happen all over the track, you dont just rely on DRS or a decent slipstream & top end speed.
    The RedBulls are heavy on the downforce, so have better traction in a corner, out of it and also braking into it.

    I would say rather, that an overtake is on the bravery of the driver performing it, trying to outbrake someone or be willing to go into a corner with someone and not make contact. Im not for a moment proclaiming drivers like Vettel cowards and lavishing praise on Alonso & Hamilton, but they more then most are willing to take these chances. That said however, the advent of DRS has made such moves nearly redundant (see Cananda a last month).

    #204867
    Profile photo of necrodethmortem
    necrodethmortem
    Participant

    At this point I’d like to argue that Vettel has made more great passes this season than anyone.

    #204868
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    Webber is currently ahead of Vettel in the championship. Nuff’ said.

    Can anyone imagine the drama on here if Massa was ahead of Alonso after 8 rounds? We’d be talking about how overrated Alonso is and how he’s really not that good. And is Webber better than Massa? I doubt it. I can’t see Webber beating Raikkonen in a similar car over a season’s course anytime soon. Massa was a good measure of Schumacher in 2006, he kept Raikkonen honest in 2007, and whipped the floor with him in 2008. The fact that Alonso comes along and makes Massa his puppy worries me on how good Alonso really is.

    No offence to Webber, but while he is a good driver, he isn’t exactly a brilliant racing god himself. He was beaten by Heidfeld when they were teammates at Williams. The fact that Vettel is currently behind Webber is worrying how good Vettel really is. That’s it. Sure, he dominated him last year, but this year Vettel should only be getting better. That’s not the case. It’s clear that EBD was Vettel’s best friend. Webber has out-qualified him 4 out of 8 this season. Webber was flat-out faster than Vettel in Malaysia, Monaco, and Spain. He (Webber) was also a match at Australia and Canada. The only races this year where you could actually say Vettel was better than Webber was Bahrain and Valencia.

    Vettel should be dominating his teammate but he’s not. That’s not good.

    #204869
    Profile photo of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @Kingshark
    Just to get a measure on you, mind if I ask:
    – You consider Massa to still be as fast as before his accident?
    – Why do you consider only the beginning of this year indicative of Vettel’s talent, and not 2009-2011 where he beat Webber?
    – You don’t think the >30 points Vettel lost, make basing talent on current standings a little skewed?

    #204870
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    - You consider Massa to still be as fast as before his accident?

    He’s had 3 years to recover from his incident, and he’s nowhere near Alonso.

    - Why do you consider only the beginning of this year indicative of Vettel’s talent, and not 2009-2011 where he beat Webber?
    – You don’t think the >30 points Vettel lost, make basing talent on current standings a little skewed?

    Uh, I do consider Vettel a better driver than Webber. However, Vettel should be getting better and Webber shouldn’t. Yet the gap isn’t increasing, quite the opposite actually. In 2011 I rated Vettel amongst the best on the grid along with Alonso. However, this year it’s became obvious to me that he’s not in the same league as him.

    #204871
    Profile photo of andae23
    andae23
    Participant

    I completely agree with you, @mnm racer. I was flabbergasted to see Alonso become F1F’s best driver of the Valencia GP last week, because it was evident that Vettel was uncatchable that weekend. I wrote that in several comments and then got replies which were quite similar to your petitio pricipii-circle. And the funny thing is that I really don’t get it. Why do people still believe Vettel isn’t a worthy racing driver?

    #204872
    Profile photo of Guilherme
    Guilherme
    Participant

    @kingshark No, not ’nuff said. If you think that the fact Vettel is behind Webber is worrying, what is your opinion on Hamlton last year? He was dreadful most of the time and finished well behind Button, but look at him now, dominating Button like Alonso is doing to Massa (dare I say Massa is being more competent than Button lately). Now, was Hamilton’s worth as one of the Top 3 questioned last year? Hardly. Vettel has dominated Webber for pretty the whole time, bar now and the first half of 2010.

    I wasn’t as surprised as @andae23 to see Alonso as driver of the weekend. To me that result was pretty much set in stone after he won the race. Heck, Vettel’s first driver of the weekend here was in either Spa or Monza (can’t remember), after he’d won 9 or 10 races. I think people give far too much value to how many overtaking moves the winner driver did than they do to a crushing lights-to-flag victory, and while I agree that the former is more exciting, it is not aways the more rational vote.

    Not that it matters much how the driver won if he isn’t Vettel. Button was voted driver of the weekend after a seemingly easy win in Australia. Rosberg was voted driver of the weekend after not being bothered by anyone in China. Webber is voted driver of the weekend in Monaco. But who’s voted driver of the weekend in Bahrain? Raikkonen, the guy who actually had the best car there but couldn’t overtake Vettel after choosing the wrong side on the only opportunity he managed to create (big Raikkonen fan here, by the way). Sincerely, I love the site, I love Keith’s work and I love the community, but some things here simply do not make any sense.

    #204873
    Profile photo of Guilherme
    Guilherme
    Participant

    At least the tiring “Vettel can’t overtake” nonsense has finally stopped. I hope in time people will stop saying it is all about the car too.

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