The better car-argument (25 posts)

  • Profile picture of Slr Slr said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @guilherme Now that Vettel has been labelled as the driver who can’t overtake, there will always be people who will say he can’t overtake.

  • Profile picture of Kingshark Kingshark said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @Guilherme
    I think you missed a very basic point I’m trying to bring across.

    - Vettel isn’t one of the two best drivers in F1 at the moment.

    He was arguably the best driver last year, but he simply isn’t as impressive this season. And no, it has nothing to do with the car.

    You’re #1 rival is your teammate. It is the only driver you can truly be compared to, as you drive equal cars. That Vettel has dominated Webber in 2011 is absolutely irrelevant to my judgement in 2012. Webber is currently matching Vettel; I don’t consider Webber better than either Massa nor Button. Therefore, at the moment Alonso and Hamilton are simply better than Vettel.

    Vettel had a great drive in Valencia. But where was he in Malaysia, China, Spain, Canada, or Monaco? Given the car he had, not where a top driver should be. Perhaps the saying that “You are judged by your last race” is 100% true after all.

    Oh btw, I have nothing against Vettel. I actually support him on the Autosport forum; as that forum is mostly dominated by Mclaren fans. Therefore, Vettel often doesn’t get the credit he deserves. Here, however, it seems that most people give Vettel too much credit for the season he’s had. Therefore, here I am against him. I simply enjoy going against the majority.

  • Profile picture of Juan Pablo Heidfeld Juan Pablo Heidfeld said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    I think people believe that Vettel is driving/has been driving the fastest car is due to the fact the Red Bull won the constructors in 2010, 2011, and they are currently leading the World Championship, coupled with the fact Vettel’s win’s are usually really dull, Schumi-esque races, I think its understandable that people rate Alonso and Hamilton more highly. Personally I think they are in the same class (top tier) but Alonso is definitely the best

  • Profile picture of peter smith peter smith said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    i can see what people are saying here, vet, ham n alo are best three drivers but vettel only ever seems to do well when hes out in front and he doesnt seem to feel the pressure but when hes got to make his way through the pack alot of the times he seems to make mistakes! ham and alo seem to always do a good job whatever situation there in! there all top drivers! hamilton to win championship please!!!!

  • Profile picture of Dizzy-A Dizzy-A said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Well I haven’t seen many mistakes from Vettel in the last 2 years @hamifan , and he’s had quite a few different situations to deal with.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    I think if you really want to tackle this question, you should reverse engineer the question. What performances do people put down to the car, and what do they put down to the driver? Generally speaking, qualifying is (in equal conditions) almost always held to be indicative of a car’s pace, and for some reason the race is more a function of a driver’s capability. As such this really hampers qualifying specialists, such as Webber and Vettel. I’m no Webber fan, but anyone who thinks that qualifying is a true reflection of a car’s pace in the pecking order should take a good look at Malaysia 2004 and where Webber placed his car on the grid.

    ————————————————————-

    The current qualifying format where people just go for runs with 1 qualifying lap means that drivers don’t get a chance to “build a rhythm,” meaning they have to rely on a more “instinctive” grip which they immediately feel from the first run, with no chance to truly build yourself up to it. Which basically is what people say makes the wet a good equaliser anyways – that because the grip is constantly changing (water is constantly getting added or decreased to the circuit) drivers cannot rely on a rhythm to carry them through the race, and so those with a better instantaneous sensitivity rise to the fore.

    I think this is especially the case in 2012 actually. Because you have the tyres to look out for, you have to drive to your strategy. If you start “working miracles” of pace, then you’ll burn the tyres out quicker.

    An easy way to gauge this is GP2. In equal cars, that means that, driver aside, the cars should all (track conditions allowing) actually set identical qualifying times, and will complete the race distance in identical times (ie cross the line together, molecule for molecule). Let’s call this race-finish time X minutes. For the sake of a better comparison let’s leave aside the reverse-grid race.

    Now – generally GP2 qualifying is separated in a manner of tenths. The race finish is separated by a manner of seconds. Do the maths and you’ll soon see that in the race the laptimes are a lot closer to each other, as the drivers gravitate towards X minutes of a finishing time.

    ————————————————————-

    Sad fact of life is that some people choose to believe what they want. Apparently for some drivers they are able to affect the laptime the car produces, and some drivers aren’t. If Driver A can “outdrive” a car – then it is also possible for Driver B to do so. Problem is once people get stuck in the rut of “Driver A always outdrives his car” then in their view the car is always slower than the achieved result. “Driver B is all car, no driver” – then suddenly when the guy gets beat, it’s despite having the fastest car, but when the car wins, it’s because of the car.

    I’m not saying this is the case – but take 2011 as an example – it’s possible (unlikely, but possible) that Vettel is just outdriving the car so much more than the others. Maybe the McLaren was actually the quickest car at every race and every qualifying, but their drivers are slower than Vettel. Maybe the Ferrari actually was very quick on the harder tyres, but Alonso just was unable to get on terms with them, just as Webber was unable to get on with the softs for pretty much the first 90% of last season.

    Bottom line is, we don’t know these for sure. The final result is that these are all dependent on each fan’s self-rationalising view of events. You could say for example that Button is slower than Hamilton, since Spain. But all we know is that Button is slower than hamilton in the McLarens we have driven so far. Who knows? Maybe if he had joined McLaren in 2007/2008 instead of Alonso/Heikki, he would’ve swallowed Hamilton head over heels? Every driver, no matter how adaptable, always has a certain type of corner, circuit, setup, car AND (not or) tyres that will suit their driving style better than others. Put Alonso and Massa in the MP4-27. Who knows? Massa might start beating the cr*p out of Alonso.

    Right. I’m done with my rant. Thanks for listening :P

  • Profile picture of Girts Girts said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    The problem is that it is impossible to separate a driver from his car, that is, lap times are always set by the combination of both. We cannot know how quick Alonso or Hamilton would be in the current Red Bull and we don’t know what Seb would be capable of in the 2011 or 2012 versions of McLaren and Ferrari. There is an article published on Autosport Plus where Tony Dodgins argues that drivers should rotate between different teams during a season to determine the best of the best but I don’t think it’s a realistic plan.

    Nevertheless, you cannot deny the following:

    1) It isn’t Seb’s fault if he’s got the best car. It’s not his fault that he can put in on pole, make a good start and manage the gap to the followers after that.
    2) It is nowhere said that greatness in F1 can be achieved only by delivering thrilling fightbacks from the back of the starting grid. In fact, these mostly become possible only because something has gone wrong in the qualifying in the first place. And I don’t see why running in front or defensive driving should be considered less worthy arts than overtaking.
    3) Vettel can overtake. There have been enough good examples. His epic manouvre on Alonso at Monza was rightly voted by us the second best pass of the whole 2011 season.
    4) Vettel has beaten his more experienced teammate, a generally highly rated driver, in every season since 2009 and would be ahead of Webber in points now as well if the Renault alternator hadn’t broken down at Valencia.

    I believe that F1 fanatics generally understand that Vettel is in the same league as Hamilton and Alonso. vettel was voted the F1F driver of the 2011. Moreover, he won the DotW poll three times last year and regularly featured in the top three, too. The lack of even more positive judgment could be explained by his performances being ‘boring’, see 1) above. Of course, Alonso fans, Hamilton fans and even Petrov fans will always argue why their favourite is better than anyone else but I don’t think that Seb is generally underrated.

  • Profile picture of raymondu999 raymondu999 said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @Girts Bravo!

  • Profile picture of damonsmedley damonsmedley said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    Bit disappointing to see so much Vettel bashing lately. It’s just crazy. Are people holding onto the remaining thread of denial that he’s in fact actually an amazing driver? If you compare what Sebastian puts into F1 to get the results (results he deserves) to almost anyone else, Seb wins hands-down. No other driver seems to stay at the track as long as him to work with his engineers, no-one makes sacrifices like Sebastian (he came into 2012 with no personal sponsors, obviously indicating he was in for a tough fight, whereas most drivers like the extra cash so they can live the glamourous lifestyle that apparently comes with being an F1 driver) and then you only have to watch him in Saturday afternoon to see where he’s making up the time. Last year he dominated qualifying even in situations where he didn’t have the best car, and yet people still say Hamilton and Alonso are better than him (granted, it was only the McLaren that was ever really faster).

    Yes, Seb had a great car in 2011, but he really worked for the success too. His team-mate (I love Webber by the way) won a single race… Vettel showed us a glimpse of Schumacher in 2001, ’02, ’04 only without such a dominant car. It was an amazing season. Not very exciting for fans, but you cannot deny the fact that he was, despite having the best car for the most part, the best driver that year.

    And this is precisely why I can never, ever relax knowing Vettel has yet to set a time in Q3 and why I never counted him out in 2010, even after Korea. It’s probably the same feeling with everyone, but many seem to want to deny it.

  • Profile picture of AdrianMorse AdrianMorse said 11 months, 3 weeks ago:

    @damonsmedley

    Bit disappointing to see so much Vettel bashing lately.

    I haven’t been keeping track lately, but I have a feeling it’s also some of Vettel’s fans being unsatisfied with the recognition Sebastian has received on this site, and then reacting strongly whenever they perceive a slight. Take the DotW poll for Valencia for instance; some of the comments above expressed disbelief that Alonso rather than Vettel won the poll, and then concluded that Vettel is not rated as highly as a driver.

    This last conclusion is unjustified, in my opinion. Personally, I voted for Alonso, because for me he was the story of the weekend; a driver who retires at half distance and sees his main championship rival score big does not feel like the driver of the weekend to me. I don’t think Sebastian himself even felt like the driver of the weekend (note that James Allen, who runs a similar poll on his blog, did not even include the option of selecting Vettel as driver of the weekend!) Would I never vote for a driver who fails to finish the race? Well, I would have voted for Damon Hill in Hungary, when he almost won the race in the Arrows (and would still have voted for him if his car had broken down completely). This is one example, and I’m sure others can be constructed in which comments are misinterpreted as Vettel not being as good as Alonso.

    Finally, let me make it clear that I have huge respect for Vettel, and I completely agree with your last paragraph, on never counting Vettel out. I liken Vettel to drivers like Mansell and Hamilton who always seem to be able to deliver something extra, and do something exciting. And I have the feeling this respect is quite widespread among F1Fanatics, even if not everyone here may be whooping at the sight of yet another Vettel win (especially last year). So, Vettel fans, please allow us Hamilton and Alonso fans a bit of hyperbole when our guy does well, because your man is the most successful driver of all time for his age, with two championships under his belt and a third ‘on the way’.

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