F1

Underdog moments

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  • #303006
    Espen
    Participant

    I’ve long been planning to someday make a video clip of Formula 1’s underdog moments. To begin on this, I had to start with the definition of the underdog term and then pick out the moments in F1 which fits the description.

    Two definitions of underdog:
    1. One that is expected to lose a contest or struggle, as in sports or politics.
    2. One that is at a disadvantage.

    Just a few of the moments I’ve written down until now, is
    1995 Canadian GP – Jean Alesi takes his first victory in a Ferrari
    1996 Monaco GP – Olivier Panis wins in a Ligier
    2008 Canadian GP – Robert Kubica takes his maiden victory in a BMW Sauber
    2009 Belgian GP – Giancarlo Fisichella takes pole position and achieves 2nd place in a Force India

    But then I started to think about the context of every one of these examples – the Alesi win was in a Ferrari, a team that ended up third with 73 points that year, and surely with a much bigger budget than most teams on the grid – BMW Sauber had already picked up seven top 4 places before the Canadian GP, so it was not unthinkable that they could win in that particular season.

    The Ligier team of 1996 ended up with a total of 15 points that year, with three 6th places and a single 5th place finish to add up with the points from the win – even better, the Force India team never had a pole position or podium, never mind a single points finish (!) before the Belgian GP of 2009.

    Comparing these four moments, there’s no doubt which performances looks stronger. Considering the definitions of an underdog, it wasn’t expected for Kubica and/or Alesi to win, but it was not at all unthinkable – and the car they drove was not a big disadvantage either. The question is if I should exclude the likes of Alesi and Kubica wins, or at best include them in a small “Honourable mentions” part?

    What are your views on this?

    (And forgive me if there’s a similar thread to this one, I’m new here and couldn’t find the search function)

    #303007
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I’d love to see what comes out of this! I do have a love of underdog teams and drivers, especially in those rare moments when they triumph against the odds. Panis and Fisichella are good examples (in Fisichella’s case you might want to include his 2003 Brazil win). I’m not so sure of Alesi and Kubica. Like you say, honourable mentions might be good instead.

    Anyway, more examples (in case you don’t already have them):

    – Markus Winkelhock leading the 2007 European GP
    – Super Aguri at Canada 2007
    – Roberto Moreno getting the Andrea Moda onto the grid in Monaco 1992
    – Stefan Johansson finishing 3rd for Onyx at Portugal 1989
    – Pierluigi Martini leading the same race
    – Any race where Minardi scored points in their last ten years or so (e.g. USA 2004)
    – Damon Hill almost winning the 1997 Hungarian GP
    – Jordan’s 1-2 at Spa in 1998
    – Vettel’s first win for Toro Rosso in Italy 2008
    – Jules Bianchi finishing 9th in Monaco 2014
    – Pastor Maldonado winning Spain 2012
    – John Love almost winning South Africa 1967 (would have been one of the biggest upsets in the sport’s history)
    – Either of Stirling Moss’s 1961 wins
    – Andrea de Cesaris challenging for victory at Spa 1991 (anyone who calls him the worst driver ever should look at this performance)
    – Luca Badoer running 4th at the 1999 European GP (people who call him the worst driver ever, see the above de Cesaris comment)
    – Eric van de Poele almost scoring the Modena team’s first points at Imola 1991
    – JJ Lehto’s podium in the Dallara at the same race
    – Leyton House almost scoring a 1-2 at the 1990 French GP
    – Either of Rial’s two points finishes
    – Senna and Bellof at Monaco 1984

    I understand some of these are more “nearly” moments, like Badoer’s heartbreak at the Nurburgring, and I fear that footage of some of these moments will be hard to come by, but I’d love to see at least some of these included. I still have other examples to list, but, well, it’s late so maybe tomorrow. ;)

    #303008
    McFillin
    Participant

    How about Jenson at Canada 2011? I’m pretty sure that was only the second time Vettel’s Red Bull was defeated at the time. It was a mistake on Vettel’s part but still awesome stuff.

    #303010
    Jonathan
    Participant

    In the last few years, had Sergio Perez won the 2012 Malaysian GP then that would have gone done as a pretty great underdog victory, given that Sauber has never won a race as an independent team and that was probably the closest they ever came to doing so. Even so, second place was a fine underdog moment.

    2012 was quite a good year for underdogs to impress actually – Nico Hulkenberg led much of the Brazilian GP on merit in the Force India while Maldonado’s Spanish GP win was unexpected. Although he was clearly helped by Hamilton’s demotion to the back of the grid, there had been no indications that Williams was about to end its winless run and although the Williams was fast that season they hadn’t looked like winning before then and no one would have picked Maldonado as a likely race winner at the start of the year. By contrast, if Massa or Bottas won a race this season, it wouldn’t feel like an underdog triumph as they’ve consistently been near the sharp end of the field (I think it would be comparable to BMW’s win in Canada in 2008, with the third best team winning the race).

    #303013
    dragoll
    Participant

    No one I don’t think has touched on your question @espnb – I think you need to include all those examples, regardless of the money that has gone into it, look at Vettel’s victories this year, Ferrari have thrown everything but the kitchen sink this year, but I think its still an underdog performance to knock Mercedes off the top step. Just like Ricciardo’s victories last year.

    Now on to the fun stuff, highlighting all the underdog moments :P

    some of my favourite under dog moments:

    • Senna’s drive in the toleman at Monaco (85 I think), to finish 2nd.
    • Schumacher’s finish on the podium after being stuck in 5th gear in Spain 94.
    • Schumacher’s spanish gp victory in 96 in the wet, in a dog of a Ferrari.
    • Mark Webber’s 5th place finish to score points for the Minardi team at his home grand prix.
    • Seb’s first victory in a Torro Rosso at Italy in 2008
    • Seb’s 2 victories in 2015
    • Jules’ 9th place at Monaco in 2014 in a Marussia. (still have a heavy heart)

    There are numerous others as well, some are victories, some are struggles that outshine the victor’s own efforts.

    #303014
    PorscheF1
    Participant

    You should not confuse underdog with ‘misfortune that got turned around’.

    For example above mentions Schumacher’s podium in Spain. He wasn’t really an underdog, he was always going to go well if that stuck gear did not happen.

    For me the underdog is that guy with a chance but if you had to bet money on it you would not pick him because his chances are slim. Like who would have bet on Vettel in Hungary, nobody would. Hamilton was the obvious pick and the bold one would pick Rosberg, but only a fraction of (mad) people would pick Vettel. His win in Malaysia though could be predicted, Ferrari had good tyre wear and the heat was in their favour. They had nothing like that in Hungary except for a brilliant start.

    Also for example Jenson in Canada, he wasn’t an underdog, he was fast all weekend. He just had bad luck but had that not happend he would have had plenty of chances to win the race.

    More recent examples; Another situation of an underdog is Kovalainen at the Hungarion GP in 2008. Or Alonso in the 2012 world championship, or in that season his race in Valencia. Perez in the 2014 Bahrein GP. Kobayashi in the 2012 Japanese GP. Kimi Raikkonen in Abu Dhabi 2012, but not in 2013 Melbourne. Barichello in the 2009 European GP. Vettel in Monza 2008. Webber 2002 in Melbourne.

    #303023
    Matthijs
    Participant

    I already read some very nice underdog achievements, just want to add: Damon Hill Hungary 1997, Fisichella Brazil 2003, Ivan Capelli France 1990,

    #303024
    safeeuropeanhome
    Participant

    Just make the video extremely long and include all of them :P

    Surely no underdog collection would be complete without mentioning Gilles Villeneuve winning at Jarama in 1981 in a Ferrari that was more a tractor than a racing car. Although it had a powerful engine.
    For championship underdogs then look no further than Kimi winning the title in ’07 and Prost in ’86.

    Senna in the Toleman was Monaco ’84 @dragoll.

    #303026
    Espen
    Participant

    @anto
    Thank you. I’ve already written down all of them, except the one on Stirling Moss, Martini leading the 1989 Portugues GP, and Eric van de Poele near points-finish at Imola of 1991.
    Such “nearly” moments could be another section of the video, or included in the honourable mentions – except for near victories, such as Damon Hill at Hungaroring in 1997 and Perez at Sepang in 2012, because 2nd place was a great achievement, too. We’ll see how I solve that one, though. :)


    @kcampos12

    That was no doubt very impressive, but I think I would leave it out. I see your point, but Button was far from the MOST unlikely to win that race if Vettel were not to win it.


    @jw14b

    Yes, the 2012 season had some good underdog moments – seven different winners in the seven first races too, wasn’t it?
    And I agree on your point about if Williams were to win this, or even last season.


    @dragoll

    Great to hear that I didn’t make a new thread for an old question.
    I do see your argument – to even start to think about a non-Mercedes win without both cars hitting trouble or retiring is not likely. No one probably saw Vettel’s win coming, but I would leave it out, if not include it in the honourable mention – at best.
    The 1984 Monaco GP is a great example of underdog class – we must not forgot Stefan Bellof in the same race, though.
    Schumacher in the wet 1996 Spanish GP was undoubtely a fine moment for him and Ferrari, but this one too would probably miss out on the underdog moments – there’s just so many other to pick.


    @xtwl

    Spot on about Schumacher in 1994 and the clarification on the underdog term, mate.


    @debaser91

    My plan exactly. When I start this project, I want to do it thouroughly – that’s why I’m here to ask you guys for some opinions and tips, which is much, much appreciated :)
    I will most probably not include title wins, though.

    My very first post will be updated with the list I’ve written down so far in my research.
    Edit: Or so I thought, before noticing that it wasn’t possible to do that. My list will follow in next post, then.

    #303032
    Espen
    Participant

    Here it is. These are ones I remember from the top of my head + examples I’ve picked up from other forums, and stuff I’ve written down by looking at the Driver’s championship charts for each season, found at Wikipedia (example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Formula_One_season). I’ve included many moments that can be questioned, as the case with Kubica 2008 and Alesi 1995.

    Facts in brackets about points finishes and completed races is about that specific season. The number in “Out of (number) completed races” counts each car finishing a race.
    Question mark before a race means questionable underdog moment/needs more research.

    Brace yourselves, these notes are messy.

    1961 Either of Stirling Moss’ victories
    1967 South African GP – John Love almost wins

    1972 Monaco GP – Jean-Pierre Beltoise wins (only victory for Beltoise)
    1976 Austrian GP – John Watson wins in a Penske (only victory for Penske)
    1975 Austrian GP – Vittorio Brambilla wins in a March (only victory for Brambilla)
    1977 Austrian GP – Alan Jones wins in a Shadow
    1977 Argentinian GP – Jody Scheckter wins in a Walter Wolf

    1981 British GP – ATS takes 6th place (only point that season, out of three completed races that season)
    1981 US GP West – Theodore takes 6th place (only point out of ten completed races)
    1981 Brazilian GP – Ensign takes 4th place (one of two points finishes, out of six completed races); Arrows takes third place (one of two points finishes)
    1981 San Marino GP – Arrows takes 2nd place (one of two points finishes)
    1981 Caesar’s Palace GP – Alfa Romeo takes 3rd (one of three points finishes)
    ? 1982 Monaco GP – Alfa Romeo takes 3rd (one of three points finishes, out of 14 completed races)
    ? 1982 Brazilian GP – ATS takes 5th place
    ? 1982 US GP (Detroit) – John Watson wins
    ? 1982 San Marino GP – Osella takes 4th place (only points finish, out of three completed races); ATS takes 5th place
    1982 Belgian GP – Fittipaldi takes 6th place (only points finish)
    ? 1983 German GP – Alfa Romeo takes 2nd place (one of four points finishes)
    ? 1983 South African GP – Alfa Romeo takes 2nd place (one of four points finishes)
    1983 USA GP West – Theodore takes 6th (only points finish)
    1983 US GP (Detroit) – Tyrrell wins (one of three points finishes)
    ? 1984 US GP (Detroit) – Martin Brundle takes 2nd place in a Tyrrell (Tyrrell made many great results this season, but was later disqualified)
    ? 1984 Monaco GP – Ayrton Senna takes 2nd place; Stefan Bellof takes 3rd, later disqualified
    1984 Brazilian GP – Arrows takes 6th and 7th place (one of four points finishes)
    1984 Italian GP – Alfa Romeo takes 3rd place (one of four points finishes)
    ? 1984 Austria GP – Arrows på femte- og sjetteplass (two of four points finishes)
    ? 1985 San Marino GP – Arrows in 2nd place
    ? 1985 Australian GP – Ligier takes 2nd and 3rd place
    ? 1986 Austrian GP – Lola takes 4th and 5th place
    ? 1986 Mexican GP – Gerhard Berger wins in an Benetton (one of six points finishes for Benetton)
    ? 1987 Belgian GP – Brabham takes 3rd place (out of eight completed races)
    ? 1987 Mexican GP – Brabham takes 3rd place (out of eight completed races)
    1987 San Marino GP – Zakspeed takes 5th place (only points finish, out of ten completed races)
    ? 1987 Monaco GP – March takes 6th place (only points finish, out of six completed races)
    1988 US GP (Detroit) – Minardi takes 6th place (only points finish); Rial takes 4th place (only points finish, out of five completed races)
    1989 Portuguese GP – Pierluigi Martini leads in a Minardi; Onyx takes 3rd place (six races completed out of 15 tries)
    ? 1989 French GP – Jean Alesi on fire, takes 4th place
    1989 Canadian GP – Derek Warwick close to a win in an Arrows; Dallara takes 3rd and 6th place
    1989 Brazilian GP – Mauricio Gugelmin takes 3rd place in a March
    1989 US GP – Rial takes 4th place
    ? 1989 Japanese GP – Alessandro Nannini wins in a Benetton
    ? 1989 Mexican GP – AGS takes 6th place (only participated in six races, three of them completed)
    ? 1989 Spanish GP – Lola takes 6th place (six races completed all season)

    1990 French GP – Leyton House absolutely on fire
    1990 US GP – Unusual starting grid; Jean Alesi is challenging for top spot, ends up 2nd; Modena takes 5th place in a Brabham
    1990 Japanese GP – Aguri Suzuki takes 3rd place in a Lola
    ? 1990 Monaco GP – Arrows takes 5th place
    ? 1990 British GP – Lola takes 4th and 6th place
    1991 Belgian GP – Schumacher places his Jordan in 7th gridspot; Andrea de Cesaris challenging for top spot
    1991 San Marino GP – Dallara takes 3rd place; Martini takes 4th place in a Minardi; Eric van de Poele close to Modena’s first points
    1991 Portuguese GP – Pierluigi Martini takes 4th place in a Minardi
    ? 1991 Japanese GP – Brabham takes 5th place
    ? 1991 Canadian GP – Tyrrell takes 2nd place
    1992 Monaco GP – Larrousse takes 6th place
    1992 Canadian GP – March takes 4th place
    ? 1992 Belgian GP – Michael Schumacher wins in a Benetton
    1993 San Marino GP – Larrousse takes 5th place
    ? 1993 Japanese GP – Jordan’s double points finish (only points finishes that season)
    1993 Hungarian GP – Footwork takes 4th place
    1994 Belgian GP – Rubens Barrichello takes pole position
    1994 German GP – Ligier takes 2nd and 3rd place
    ? 1995 Canadian GP – Jean Alesi wins; Jordan takes 2nd and 3rd place
    1995 Australian GP – Footwork takes 3rd place
    1996 Monaco GP – Panis wins in a Ligier; Sauber takes 3rd and 4th place
    1996 Argentinian GP – Footwork takes 6th place
    1997 Monaco GP – Stewart takes 2nd place (only points finish); Tyrrell takes 5th place
    ? 1997 Brazilian GP – Prost takes 3rd place
    ? 1997 Spanish GP – Prost takes 2nd place
    ? 1997 German GP – Giancarlo Fisichella close to winning for Jordan; Gerhard Berger wins
    1997 Belgian GP – Giancarlo Fisichella takes 2nd place
    1997 Austrian GP – Jarno Trulli (?)
    1997 Argentinian GP – Olivier Panis (?)
    1997 Hungarian GP – Damon Hill close to victory, takes 2nd place
    1998 Belgian GP – Jordan takes 1st and 2nd place, first win
    1999 season – BAR Supertec competitive in several occassions (like Spain), but ends up with zero points
    1999 European GP – Johnny Herbert wins; Trulli 2nd; Barrichello 3rd; Luca Badoer close to get points; Marc Gené takes 6th place
    1999 Australian GP – Arrows takes their single point of the season
    ? 1999 French GP – The qualifying results
    ? 2000 Monaco GP – Jaguar takes 4th place
    ? 2000 Australian GP – BAR Honda’s maiden points with 4th and 6th place
    ? 2001 Spanish GP – Villeneuve takes 3rd place in a BAR Honda
    2001 Monaco GP – Jaguar takes 3rd place
    2001 German GP – Fernando Alonso takes 10th place in a Minardi; Benetton takes 4th and 5th place; Villeneuve takes 3rd place
    2001 Japanese GP – Fernando Alonso takes 11th place
    2001 Belgian GP – Frentzen in 4th starting position; Fisichella takes 3rd place
    2001 Malaysian GP – Jos Verstappen takes 7th for Arrows
    2001 Austrian GP – Jos Verstappen takes 6th for Arrows
    2002 Australian GP – Mark Webber takes 5th in a Minardi
    2002 Italian GP – Eddie Irvine takes 3rd place in a Jaguar
    2002 Japanese GP – Takuma Sato takes 5th place in a Jordan
    2003 Brazilian GP – Giancarlo Fisichella wins
    2003 British GP – The Toyotas in 1-2 for a number of laps; Cristiano Da Matta leading many laps
    ? 2003 French GP – Jos Verstappen on pole after Q1
    ? 2003 US GP – Sauber takes 3rd and 5th place
    2004 Malaysian GP – Mark Webber qualifies 2nd (has an awful race)
    2004 Canadian – Jordan’s double points finish; Timo Glock debuts with points finish
    ? 2004 US GP – Minardi takes 8th place
    ? 2005 season – Tiago Monteiro matches Michael Schumacher’s record of consecutive race finishes, in a Jordan
    ? 2005 San Marino GP – Jacques Villeneuve takes 4th place for Sauber
    ? 2005 Canada GP – Jenson Button puts his BAR Honda on pole position; Felipe Massa takes 4th in a Sauber
    ? 2005 US GP – Jordan takes 3rd and 4th place; Minardi takes 5th and 6th place
    2006 Hungarian GP – Jenson Button wins
    2006 Monaco GP – Coulthard takes 3rd place for Red Bull
    ? 2006 US GP – Toro Rosso earns maiden points
    2007 Canadian GP – Super Aguri
    2007 European GP – Markus Winkelhock leads the race
    2007 Japanese GP – Spyker scores points!
    ? 2007 Chinese GP – Toro Rosso takes 4th and 6th place (as only points finishes that season)
    2008 Monaco GP – Adrian Sutil does brilliantly in his Force India, until retiring after Raikkonen collision
    ? 2008 British GP – Rubens Barrichello takes 3rd place for Honda
    ? 2008 Canadian GP – Robert Kubica wins; Coulthard takes 3rd
    2008 Italian GP – Vettel takes pole and win in a Toro Rosso
    2008 Singapore GP – Nico Rosberg takes 2nd place
    ? 2008 French GP – Jarno Trulli (?)
    ? 2008 Hungarian GP – Timo Glock (?)
    ? 2009 season – Brawn GP and their predictions before start of season
    2009 Belgian GP – Fisichella on pole position, takes 2nd place
    2009 Italian GP – Adrian Sutil takes 4th place
    2010 Abu Dhabi – (?)
    2010 Brazilian GP – Nico Hulkenberg takes pole position for Williams
    ? 2012 Canadian GP – Sauber takes 3rd place
    ? 2012 Italian GP – Sauber takes 2nd place
    ? 2012 Japanese GP – Sauber takes 3rd place
    2012 Malaysian GP – Perez challenges Alonso for victory
    2012 Brazilian GP – Hulkenberg challenges Hamilton for the lead
    2012 Spanish GP – Maldonado takes 2nd grid spot and win
    2014 Monaco GP – Jules Bianchi scores points

    #303035
    Michal
    Participant

    2007 – Winkelhock leading the European GP for Spyker
    2008 – Vettel taking pole in a Toro Rosso at Monza then winning the race
    2009 – AustralianGP, Brawn, Red Bull, Toyota and Williams emerging in front, possibly the biggest order shakeup in F1 history
    2009 – Fisichella scoring pole for Force India at Spa with normal fuel load
    2010 – Hulkenberg beating the championship contenders to pole in Brazil
    2012 – Perez nearly winning in Malaysia
    2012 – Maldonado inheriting pole at Catalunya, then impressively outgunning Alonso in the race
    2012 – Hulkenberg leading most of the Brazilian GP + some other 2012 underdog moments overshadowed by a bigger ones

    Some others I haven’t watched live:
    1990 – Leyton House nearing winning the race after not qualifying on merit for a previous one
    1997 – Hill coming agonisingly close to scoring a surprise victory for Arrows
    1998 – Jordan 1-2 with Fisichella third at Spa
    1999 – Herbert’s victory at Nurburgring
    2002 – Webber’s fifth place in the Minardi, bettered only 10 years later!
    2003 – Fisichella winning at Interlagos amid all chaos

    And I strongly disagree with Kubica’s Canada victory being an underdog triumph on par with Maldonado/Herbert/Fisichella. He had a competitive car, ran second in the race and was in the contention for the championship at that point. It’s as much of a surprise as last year’s Ricciardo’s victories if not less.

    #303040
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Berger’s win in Hockenheim 1997 has always been my favorite.
    It was his first race after being sidelined by an illness. His father just passed away and it ended up being his final win in his final season.
    The Benetton was good that year, probably third best along with the Mclaren but definitely nowhere near the Williams and slower than the Ferrari.
    It wasn’t a giant-killing performance but Berger was pretty much unfancied for the win that day.

    I’m biased because Berger has always been a personal favorite of mine though.
    By the way, you could pretty much say that the entire 2010 season was an underdog moment for Kubica, frequently running wheel-to-wheel with the Red Bulls in a much slower car.

    And in the 2012 Malaysian GP Alonso was actually slower than Perez so it’s actually more impressive that Alonso ended up being the one that took the chequered flag.

    #303041
    Matthijs
    Participant

    1971 Italian GP: Pether Gethin wins in ‘photo finish’. Apart from this win, he would only score 2 points throughout his F1-career.

    #303073
    Tom L.
    Participant

    Surprised no one’s mentioned Trulli’s victory in Monaco yet, the only time in a stretch of 13 races that Schumacher was beaten!

    #303113
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I wouldn’t have regarded any win by a Ferrari, McLaren, Williams or Benetton/Renault as being an underdog moment.

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