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F1

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F1 discussion

Is Vettel’s fourth title almost guaranteed?

This topic contains 97 replies, has 32 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Michael Michael 1 year ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 98 total)
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  • #237679
    Profile photo of Chiz
    Chiz
    Participant

    Alonso has never had the fastest car in the grid during his time in F1 so who knows what he could do when he finally gets it!! Put Alonso and Vettel in the same team and he would DECIMATE finger boy

    #237680
    Profile photo of David-A
    David-A
    Participant

    @a-flying-toilet -

    Alonso has never had the fastest car in the grid during his time in F1 so who knows what he could do when he finally gets it!! Put Alonso and Vettel in the same team and he would DECIMATE finger boy

    You must have been asleep between 2005-2007. Even this season, he’s got a car that is at least on par with the Red Bull on race pace. He can “decimate” Massa, but it’s laughable to suggest he’d do the same to a triple champion 6 years younger than him.

    #237682
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @a-flying-toilet

    Alonso has never had the fastest car in the grid during his time in F1 so who knows what he could do when he finally gets it!!

    That’s rather untrue, actually.

    1. Alonso had the best car in 2005.

    Do not confuse “best” with “fastest”. For instance, in 2005 Renault had the best car even though McLaren had the fastest car, that is because the MP4-20 was horrendously unreliable. Similarly, last year Red Bull had the best car, even though McLaren (again) had the fastest car.

    2. Alonso had the equal best car in 2006 and 2007

    In 2006, Ferrari and Renault were pretty much evenly matched. They were both on par in speed and reliability. Similarly, in 2007 Ferrari and McLaren were dead-on evenly matched, there was little to chose between the two.

    Therefore, even though Alonso never has had a dominant car unlike Vettel (2011), he has driven the best car many times in his career.

    What has he done with it? Well, in those 3 years, he won 2 WDC, and missed out on a third WDC by 1 point. He won 18 out of 53 races (34%).

    I also don’t think Alonso will decimate Vettel in an equal car. I did at one point last year, but I certainly don’t anymore. IMO, Alonso would have the edge around “his” tracks (Spain, Britain, Germany, Italy, and Singapore) while Vettel would have the vantage around his circuits (Bahrain, Suzuka, Korea, India, and Abu Dhabi)

    #237683
    Profile photo of craig-o
    craig-o
    Participant

    In addition to the above comments, Vettel is a supreme qualifier whereas Alonso, as good as he is, is not on par with the likes of Hamilton or Vettel over 1 lap, which would give Vettel the edge on certain tracks like Monaco. Even when Alonso had a car equal to a rival teams he failed to decimate his rivals. Being outscored (on countback) by Hamilton and Raikkonen in 2007, and didn’t decimate Schumacher by any means in 2006. Alonso and Vettel in the same team would be an interesting battle, perhaps more like Prost & Senna than any other combination of drivers in recent years but I very highly doubt Alonso would have that much of an upper hand.

    #237684
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @craig-o

    In addition to the above comments, Vettel is a supreme qualifier whereas Alonso, as good as he is, is not on par with the likes of Hamilton or Vettel over 1 lap, which would give Vettel the edge on certain tracks like Monaco.

    There’s no evidence behind that whatsoever, especially considering that Vettel and Alonso have never driven for the same team.

    Fact of the matter is, Alonso has a better qualifying record against Massa than Vettel does against Webber; and most people rate Webber and Massa very similarly, good but not great drivers.

    It’s a well known fact that Ferrari struggle to get heat in the tyres, while Red Bull are usually among the best at doing this. Ferrari however, are great at making the tyres last, better than Red Bull. That’s why Ferrari’s race pace is often better than Red Bull, comparative to their qualifying pace.

    If Vettel drove the Ferrari over the past 3-4 years, you likely wouldn’t rate him as a great qualifier either. Likewise, if Alonso drove a Red Bull in the past 3-4 years, his one-lap pace would be rated much higher.

    However, it works the other way too, if Vettel drove a Red Bull, people would rate his race craft much stronger, because Ferrari is better at making the tyres last, and has more top speed, which makes it easier to overtake. Likewise, if Alonso drove an RBR, his reputation as a racecraft master wouldn’t be as well-recognized.

    In the 2007 qualifying battle between Hamilton and Alonso, the average difference in Q3 laptime was only a mere 0.018 s in Lewis’ favor, discluding France and Germany, where one of the two didn’t set a final laptime for some reason.

    OK, my rant is over, lol.

    #237685
    Profile photo of matt90
    matt90
    Participant

    “In the 2007 qualifying battle between Hamilton and Alonso, the average difference in Q3 laptime was only a mere 0.018 s in Lewis’ favor, discluding France and Germany, where one of the two didn’t set a final laptime for some reason.”

    Hamilton only out-qualified Alonso once in the first 5 races, after which his performance improved. But those were his first ever qualifying sessions in F1.

    #237686
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous

    I think Alonso would finish just ahead of Vettel in an equal car. Of course, it would depend on the circuit, weather, etc.

    #237687
    Profile photo of craig-o
    craig-o
    Participant

    @Kingshark

    If Ferrari are so bad at getting heat into their tyres why have they had the best starting car over the last few years?

    Hamilton scored 6 pole positions in 2007, Alonso scored 2, which in his first season, is not too bad. From Canada onwards, excluding situations like France and Europe where neither set a competitive lap time, Alonso only outqualified Hamilton at Monza and at Spa.

    With Vettel, he’s managed to pull out some remarkable qualifying performances even in his Toro Rosso days, with 7 top 10 starts in a row. An average grid position of 1.26 in 2011 was not too bad either. The Red Bull was very quick that year, yes, but not as dominant by such a margin at a lot of tracks as it was in 2010.

    I just generally believe Vettel would have the edge in qualifying over Alonso, who would probably have slightly better race pace.

    #237688
    Profile photo of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    Fact of the matter is, Alonso has a better qualifying record against Massa than Vettel does against Webber; and most people rate Webber and Massa very similarly, good but not great drivers.

    People rate Webber and Massa similarly overall, but you are ignoring one important thing: Webber is a recognized “qualifying ace” (to quote Formula One.com), hence why he’s closer to Vettel in qualifying.

    #237689
    Profile photo of Nick
    Nick
    Participant

    People seem to rate this season as becoming Vettel vs. Alonso, but I’m curious why people are disregarding Kimi after 2 bad races. In my opinion, Kimi has never had a really consistent season, either due to car/engine woes or odd moves like Spa 2008, much like last year where he also seemed to fade at the Monaco and Canadian GP. Lotus’ budget and development pace has been mentioned, but let’s not forget the 2013 car seems to be better than last year’s challenger and despite that, Kimi managed to keep Alonso behind him for his win last year.

    Kimi should be able to grab a lot more podiums and with Alonso/Ferrari typically not doing amazing stuff at the Asian Tilke tracks, and Vettel/RedBull not doing too well at the traditional European circuits, Kimi should be able to take points from both of them, provided he doesn’t get in too many tangles with Perez.

    Depending on what happens to Mercedes over the testing scandal, they too might steal points from both Vettel and Alonso in cold races or when they magically get their tyre act together, or manage to hold off the championship contenders. I’m not too sure about Hamilton and Rosberg winning many more races, but I can see them on the podium on some tracks, if Alonso has a poor qualifying, that might cost him dearly at a track like Singapore.

    Then there’s Webber and Massa. While most people aren’t that alarmed by Webber’s 1 year drought, I do think this year’s British GP might have a lot of influence on Mark’s position and morale. He is seemingly further behind Vettel than he has been before, while Massa has been doing swell, he too isn’t exactly stealing many points from his team mate’s direct competitor. To be honest, as far as the WDC is concerned, it’s looking like Vettel and Alonso aren’t getting much help from their team mates as of yet.

    #237690
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @craig-o

    If Ferrari are so bad at getting heat into their tyres why have they had the best starting car over the last few years?

    Because they have a better launch setting than everyone else?

    I’m not sure how anyone can deny Ferrari’s struggles to get heat in the tyres, it’s been a signature part of the team ever since Pirelli tyres were introduced in 2011.

    #237691
    Profile photo of Nathan
    Nathan
    Participant

    @ Kingshark:

    Also, back in 07-08 and partly 09 they had the exact same problem. Even then the Ferraris were fast-starting, but not so much as now, now they resemble the Renault cars from 2003/4-2006. Interestingly, Alonso was the driver behind all of the those cars.

    #237692
    Profile photo of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    >”Alonso has never had the fastest car in the grid during his time in F1″

    What are the odds, eh? Here’s a very successful driver who’s spent his career with big and/or successful teams, and yet … inexplicably! … he just never has “the fastest car”.

    If it’s not obvious to you yet that Alonso is distinctly mediocre in qualifying then it never will be.

    #237693
    Profile photo of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    “Alonso has a better qualifying record against Massa than Vettel does against Webber; and most people rate Webber and Massa very similarly, good but not great drivers.”

    The Massa Alonso has had as a teammate is very different from the Massa people held in high regard. Post-injury Massa has been a poor driver. I’m sorry to say it but it’s the truth. He’s a shadow of what he once was. I don’t rank post-crash Massa anywhere close to Webber – in fact it’s it’s a mystery why Ferrari keep him on. They’d probably have won the WCC last year with a better Number 2.

    These days it seems that Massa’s only function is to make Alonso look good.

    #237694
    Profile photo of Kingshark
    Kingshark
    Participant

    @jonsan

    The Massa Alonso has had as a teammate is very different from the Massa people held in high regard. Post-injury Massa has been a poor driver. I’m sorry to say it but it’s the truth. He’s a shadow of what he once was. I don’t rank post-crash Massa anywhere close to Webber – in fact it’s it’s a mystery why Ferrari keep him on. They’d probably have won the WCC last year with a better Number 2. These days it seems that Massa’s only function is to make Alonso look good.

    You think that Ferrari would sacrifice two WCC’s to make Alonso look good? How selfless do you think Di Montezemolo is? Massa is a good driver, currently on par with Webber, Alonso has made him look poor. If post-crash Massa was as poor as you claim he is, Ferrari would have sacked him mid-season.

    Then again, Alonso has a history of making good teammates look poor. Giancarlo Fisichella was rated very, very highly in the early 2000’s, people, including drivers, were screaming for him to be Schumacher’s teammate. Of course, because Alonso trashed him, it doesn’t count.

    I recommend you read this old thread for further evidence:
    http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=36250

    You can keep making up conspiracies about how post-comeback Massa is the worst driver since Yuji Ide, but perhaps the truth might escape you. Ferrari would never sign Massa for 4 years if he was even half as bad as you wishfully claim he is.

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