Vettel and Passing
7th August 2011, 15:43 at 3:43 pm #129877
Do you think that Vettel’s “inability to pass” is due to the very poor straight line speed of the RB7? Obviously Newey has optimized the design for phenomenal cornering speed at the expense of top end. I support the theory that this makes it very difficult for the Vettel to pass, especially the Mercedes powered cars.
This was discussed on The Flying lap and I think is a fact overlooked by many of Vettel’s critics.7th August 2011, 15:51 at 3:51 pm #176094
But Webber doesn’t have an issue with it. He came from 18th to 3rd in China, wwhile Vettel is perferct when in 1st, but struggles with overtaking.7th August 2011, 16:26 at 4:26 pm #176095
Webber was in a much faster car than most of the people he was passing in China though, and in that case Vettel doesn’t have that problem either. In Silverstone last year he managed to pass a lot of cars too, and he hasn’t had problems passing much slower cars on the track this season.7th August 2011, 17:28 at 5:28 pm #176096
The reputation is born partly from the percentage of races he’s one being from pole, but largely from his collisions in Turkey and Spa last year. He seems less mistake prone this time round, but he’s so rarely been behind people that it’s hard to judge. I will try to reserve judgement till he puts more moves on similarly matched cars.7th August 2011, 17:40 at 5:40 pm #176097
I think you are right. The RB is fast in the high speed corners, but it is impossible to overtake there. Under hard breaking it is really good, but not great, and on the straights it is useless. It is a car that works when it is the quickest. When it isn’t, it is very hard.
@Daykind that was due to having a lot of soft tyres left, and a very long DRS zone on that track. Vettel “even” overtook Hamilton i think, or Button? In china after they jumped him in the start.7th August 2011, 18:24 at 6:24 pm #176098
I believe Webber’s passing in China was related to the fresh tires compared to his opponents. The teams were definitely struggling much more to come to terms with tire strategies early in the season. The teams seem to have settled down since then as the drivers and engineers have adjusted to Pirellis.7th August 2011, 21:46 at 9:46 pm #176099
It seems like a plausible argument and there will be more than an element of truth to it. matt90 said it best.7th August 2011, 22:25 at 10:25 pm #176100
“Vettel can’t pass”- this sort of view gets incredibly tiresome.
I’m not saying that Vettel is a brilliant overtaker (yet, at least), but he’s certainly good enough to shrug off these ridiculous rumours that he can’t overtake. The reason we’ve seen less wheel-to-wheel action with Vettel is because he hasn’t needed to. The further forward on the grid you start, the less likely it is that you’re going to arrive behind another car.
Drivers like Hamilton and Alonso, at least this season, have been forced to overtake more simply because they’ve start the race slightly further back. Hamilton in particular is a truly brilliant overtaker, but he does so out of necessity.
Overtaking is carried out with inherent risk. Starting on pole and leading to the checkered flag is a much more preferable way that fighting through from further back on the grid, even if it DOES end in the same result. Even if it’s not quite as exciting for spectators.
And let us not forget that Vettel is still very young and at the beginning of his career. The majority of the current drivers are vastly more experienced than him, so it’s hardly surprising when he makes a few more mistakes than the others.
Look back on Hamilton’s few years in F1. His first couple of seasons were full of mistakes, crashes and collisions. Indeed he’s now in his fifth season, and look at the criticism he’s been subjected to over the past few months.7th August 2011, 22:55 at 10:55 pm #176101
Wow another thread on this…
But Webber doesn’t have an issue with it. He came from 18th to 3rd in China, wwhile Vettel is perferct when in 1st, but struggles with overtaking
When has Vettel qualified 18th? If he did he wouldn’t have trouble passing cars like Saubers and Renaults (like he did in Germany.) Have mentioned these races a million times now but Vettel went from 22nd to 4th in China 07 and 16th to 4th in Brazil 09 and that was in a Toro Rosso not an RB7.
He’s rarely had to overtake but he has done in most races this year. He passed Hamilton in China, Alonso in Hungary and Button/Massa in Barcelona. I’m beginning to think people shut their eyes and put their fingers in their ears when he does it.8th August 2011, 0:33 at 12:33 am #176102
I think too many people are making too big an issue of Vettel and his ability to overtake. I suspect that because Vettel is unpopular, those people are trying to find excuses to show that his success is only a result of his car, thereby making his victories mean nothing.8th August 2011, 3:09 at 3:09 am #176104
Spam Alert… Keep it on topic please :)
I do think that people tend to over exaggerate Vettel’s inability to pass, for sure he has/had room for improvement but he has indeed improved this year. Like others have already said, the fact that he keeps winning is why i think people try to discredit him.8th August 2011, 3:43 at 3:43 am #176105
He stared at the back of Alonso’s Ferrari for most of the race. I think people say that he can’t pass, because that is his weakness. It’s the chink in his armour that everyone wants to see exposed, because he has been so successful.
I think that he’s quite risk averse, as a driver, and doesn’t feel the need to take risks to improve his overtaking ability. The few occasions where he has made major errors (Turkey/Belgium) were just instances of brain fade, which every driver has now and then.8th August 2011, 6:54 at 6:54 am #176106
As for Singapore-2010 throughout the race the gap between VET and ALO was between 2-4 seconds. If VET indeed had the fastest package he should have at least got the fastest lap there, but he didn’t. And Singapore is not exactly an overtake-friendly track.
Problem with RBR and VET’s is that the closing speed is nowhere near the leading car on a long straight due to its straight line speed deficiency. Since it’s nowhere near, no lunge-in is possible for overtake. There is no risk in a non-existent lunge for a non-existent overtaking maneuver and so VET doesn’t take risks. He can’t overtake on slow corners as the leading driver only has to park the car on the apex. Even if a car shows up on the inside all the defender has to do is make the trailing car run out of road. Overtakes on fast corners is more traction dependent – still not RBRs forte.8th August 2011, 7:02 at 7:02 am #176107
And Singapore is not exactly an overtake-friendly track.
Indeed. Only 48% of the lap is spent at full throttle.8th August 2011, 8:05 at 8:05 am #176108
Maybe there wouldn’t be so many threads on this if we actually discussed the OP, rather than throw arbitrary examples from either side or ascribe agenda to people.
It’s a reasonable theory indeed and the amount of passes the Red Bulls have made that have relied on the DRS does support it. Webber used to have a reputation as a pretty good overtaker so I’m not surprised if he’s doing better than Vettel and even his die-hard fans have to admit he’s shown scrappiness many times, particularly last year.
One thing I will definitely criticise Vettel for is his trademark chop – even when Button gave him the inside line in Spain he still felt the need to chop towards Button a little to scare him into yielding the line on the exit. The same chop movement brought about his collision with Webber last year.
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