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Vettel, Webber and reliability at Red Bull

This topic contains 65 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Juzh Juzh 7 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 66 total)
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  • #241614
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    You admitted that you missed the 5 Webber-related issues that were brought by another member.

    Yes, and noted that it appears I had also missed some of Vettel’s. As I showed, I had missed more of Vettel’s than of Webber’s.

    How did that tally up into your count of issues? If we are talking car related issues,

    Have you even bothered to look at the tally?
    It clearly separates mechanical issues, team orders, team-mate clashes, significant pit stop issues and DNFs.

    As for your last “totally unbiased” statement, the facts are the facts. You can find it unbelievable or not, but that doesn’t change the fact it happened. If you believe something did not happen, provide evidence. Otherwise, just accept the facts for what they are.

    #241615
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @mnmracer
    2011
    Australia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race. P1
    Malaysia: Vettel and Webber had KERS issues during the race. P1
    Malaysia: Vettel has brake problems late in the race. P1
    China: Vettel has KERS issues during the race. P2
    Spain: Vettel had KERS issues during qualifying. Q2?
    Spain: Vettel had KERS issues throughout the race.P1
    Britain: A faulty wheelgun at his pit stop drops Vettel from the lead into 2nd place.P2
    Britain: Vettel has KERS issues late in the race.P2
    Britain: Vettel was challenged by Webber, who ignored the team orders not to.P2
    Germany: Vettel has brake issues during the race.P4
    Hungary: Vettel has brake issues during the race.P2
    Abu Dhabi: Vettel has a tire puncture in turn 1.
    Brazil: Vettel has gearbox issues, which drops him from the lead, to finish 2nd.
    P2*

    *Hasn’t Horner implied or stated that it was a gift? Why would anyone gift a victory especially SV who is obviously not the sharing type?

    Based on what you have listed here, Vettel should have won every race in 2011. There’s no other argument that can be made.

    If Vettel’s losses are due to the car failing, why are all victories attributable to only Vettel? Just asking

    #241616
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds
    Congratulations, you have proven exactly nothing.
    At Monza, Vettel had to change 3 gears prior to the race, and was later during the forced to shortshift because of gearbox issues. Yet he won. Does winning magically mean that he did not have gearbox issues? Of course not. The entire premise -a driver can not win if he has issues- is completely ludicrous. Instead of ‘explaining’ what isn’t challenged, explain what is challenged.

    #241617
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds

    If Vettel’s losses are due to the car failing, why are all victories attributable to only Vettel? Just asking

    What are you talking about?
    If you think you’ve seen someone say that, you should probably clean adjust your monitor or something, because you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

    #241618
    Avatar of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    They started favoring Vettel and continued doing so throughout the seasons. I have said it before that the strategy was golden and Horner deserves huge credit for doing that as history has shown. The hypocrisy is what I don’t like

    Says the Hamilton fan who is strangely unconcerned by the favoritism shown to Hamilton at Mercedes. Unlike the supposed favoritism which you imagine goes on at Red Bull but which you can somehow never quite demonstrate, the favoritism for Hamilton is actually very obvious. The only hypocrite here is you.

    #241619
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @mnmracer
    You are not suggesting that he won a race – you are suggesting that he won the WDC breaking and tying some serious records from MS with 12 issues – the same number that Webber experienced.

    Looking at your compiled sheet, 2011 was Vettel’s worst year from a reliability standpoint while it was his absolute best from a results standpoint. Alonso and Hamilton were drooling when they saw the RB7…

    You bundle the issues for Webber counting them as one but deduplicate them for Vettel to add another row. Hardly objective.

    #241620
    Avatar of DC
    DC
    Participant

    Regardless of the statistics, Webber has had a more unreliable car this year than Vettel. And altogether, their problems are not as bad as last year for Mercedes (Schumacher does great in qualifying and then his car breaks down in the race) and McLaren (it cost Hamilton a potential championship).
    BTW, this is a great detective work but statistics don’t really show the real picture – for example McLaren had a lot of reliability problems in 1998 which caused a very tight championship. If not, they would have had a lot easier job.

    #241621
    Avatar of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    the data compiled by @mnmracer makes the RB7 look like a very unreliable car when it shattered records.

    You don’t have the foggiest idea whether it “makes the RB7 look like a very unreliable car”. That would only be true if you had a list of similar car issues for the non RB cars to compare it to, as I already pointed out to you several times. You are entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to be willfully dishonest and to try to hide that willful dishonesty behind the fig leaf of “opinion”.

    #241622
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Jon_Sandor Why are you bringing up Hamilton? This is about Red Bull, Vettel and Webber.

    What “foggiest ideas” and “fig leaves” are you talking about? Mark Webber said he’s the #2 driver in 2010. Was he lying? Why make such a humiliating admission? Even Massa hasn’t said that and he’s not competing for the championship this year…

    #241623
    Avatar of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    Why are so frightened to answer the question? Why do you obsess so monomanically over “favoritism” for Vettel which exists only in your own imagination while you are apparently perfectly comfortable with much greater favoritism which goes on at Mercedes? And a tLotus and Ferrari, for that matter? If you want to go on a crusade against favoritism in F1 teams, I’ll still think you’re silly. But you wouldn’t come across as such a flaming hypocrite if you objected to favoritism everywhere.

    You don’t object to favoritism You object to Vettel. This embarrassingly nonsensical “favoritism” ploy is just one of the sticks you use to beat him.

    #241624
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Jon_Sandor
    Once again, you have reached the wrong conclusions. The booers point that many feel the same way. They applauded Webber at Monza.

    I’m not opposed to Vettel – I think he’s a great driver and history someday may show that he was in fact better than Hamilton and Alonso.

    I have also never said I’m against favoritism in F1. I believe there is favoritism in every team and in most cases it’s fully justified even at Red Bull. (correction: especially at Red Bull)

    What I don’t like is the fact that some claim that Vettel is not favored at Red Bull. That’s impossible…

    #241625
    Avatar of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    What I don’t like is the fact that some claim that Vettel is not favored at Red Bull.

    It’s just that, somehow, for some reason ,you can never quite manage to demonstrate the favoritism which you are convinced goes on there. Just as you failed again in this thread, as you flipped from “Webbers car has more problems which proves Vettel is favored” to “Vettels car has more problems which proves Vettel is favored” without batting an eye.

    Really? The booers are upset with “favoritism” for Vettel? Then they should be burning Hamilton, Alonso, and Raikkonen in effigy, because those three drivers all receive vastly more obvious favoritism than Vettel does.

    Tell you what – as you are such a favoritism expert, why don’t you do a forum post detailing the favoritism which goes on at Red Bull, Mercedes, Ferrari, and Lotus? Be sure to include references to Brawn insisting that Rosberg and Hamilton are treated equally, as you’ve already said how much hypocrisy annoys you.

    #241626
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds
    I am not suggesting anything. I am stating the facts.
    If you think they are incorrect, please provide evidence of that.

    @dujedcv
    This season, yes, but not to the point that it justifies anyone saying “only Webber has reliability issues”.
    And please don’t fall for Michael’s borderline deceptive posts. No one is claiming this to mean anything in regards to speed or best car.

    #241627
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @jon_Sandor
    I don’t have to prove it – Mark Webber claimed he’s the#2 driver while he was fighting for the WDC and that’s good enough for me and most folks. Why would he say that if he was the #1 driver?

    Are you expecting “smoking gun” type of evidence? We know that won’t happen…

    Have you heard Massa or Barrichello running around advertising that they are #2 drivers? I never heard Massa say that in 2008….

    #241628
    Avatar of Jon Sandor
    Jon Sandor
    Member

    Mark Webber claimed he’s the#2 driver while he was fighting for the WDC

    Will you stop with the pathological lying already? Mark Webber never “claimed” any such thing. He made a snarky, sarcastic remark whose plain meaning was “I am NOT a No 2 driver”.

    Are you expecting “smoking gun” type of evidence?

    I can provide you with plenty of “smoking gun” type of evidence for favoritism at Ferrari, Lotus, and Mercedes. Remind me again – why exactly is it that favoritism there does not concern you?

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