F1 Fanatic

@freelittlebirds
So your entire hypothesis is based on “Hamilton – no comment necessary”.
That’s not a very strong basis.

@freelittlebirds yep – no qualms there. But let’s go with your line of reasoning. In what way is Alonso/Hamilton a known quantity? Hamilton is a known, relative to Alonso. Alonso is a known… relative to Trulli, Fisichella, etc.

See where I’m going with this?

I’m not slating Alonso – I’m saying that there are times when you have to ask “ok – how DO we know?” Alonso is undoubtedly a top driver. But if he was the benchmark for Hamilton, who was the benchmark for him?

For example if you’re going to take early F1 results, then in 2004 Trulli was ahead of Alonso in the standings. But then again I don’t believe for a moment that Alonso (at least the Alonso of today) is a lesser driver than Trulli.

Without an inside eye – a part of it will undoubtedly be, for lack of a better word – black magic. Mind you if we did have an inside eye that could change a lot of things. In terms of which drivers maximise a car’s grip – there are certain parameters you could indeed measure on telemetry, and pretty definitively see whether or not a driver was close to the limit (though you cannot see if, for example, the driver is missing a trick by using the wrong racing line, or not missing the correct bumps etc)

A part of it will undoubtedly be nothing more than through reputation.

@mnmracer – Thanks for the info about the karts.

Does everyone agree about the following points on Vettel’s pre-F1 career:

1. He was fast in karting and had speed early on.
2. He dominated in one season of Formula BMW ADAC.
3 He did well in Formula 3 but he didn’t live up to expectations.
4. He did well in Formula Renault 3.5 but again didn’t really live up to expectations.

Conclusion
Vettel’s an early bloomer. His pre-F1 career was very good but he didn’t perform as expected in the early series. He didn’t perform horribly either.

The Race of Champions, did Vettel and Schumacher compete against a team anywhere as good as theirs? Button and Hamilton would have been a comparable team.

I basically agree with @raymondu999 on known quantities. Remember that Alonso was also widely regarded the best driver in F1 before being teammates with Hamilton. Back then he had been teammates with only Marques, Trulli and Fisichella, (and beat them all, with the exception of Trulli in 2004). He had simply maximised the opportunities he was presented with, which is ALL you can ask from any driver, in the history of the sport, much like Vettel now.

@freelittlebirds I am unable to disagree with your comment given that I don’t follow the junior categories as much. But wasn’t he leading FR3.5 before he was pulled out before the season’s end? To move into Toro Rosso, a la Alguersuari?

I don’t think Vettel’s an early bloomer to be honest. If anything he’s a late bloomer, as @mnmracer was talking about in his Valencia 2008 experience.

Hamilton doesn’t drive in ROC. But Vettel in the ROC buggy is absolutely stunning to watch.

For what it’s worth here is Vettel vs Button. Button spun on lap 2, but over such a short lap, it’s stunning that Vettel was already able to pull such a gap.

Here’s in whole:
Nations Cup

Drivers Cup

@raymondu999

After a fashion – you also have to trust the judgment of these people on the inside. They have a lot more access to data than we do – and they have a lot better info to make judgment from.

Agreed but there have been an equal amount of comments from other people questioning Vettel’s abilities. So yes, Vettel has support especially from the Red Bull/Torro Rosso camp and from German fans but he has an incredible number of detractors.

AFAIK, no one has questioned Senna’s or Clark’s speed. No one is questioning Alonso’s or Hamilton’s speed. Vettel’s speed is the question and where there is smoke, there is usually fire.

@freelittlebirds No one questions Senna/Clark NOW – but on the day? There were – just that it’s a sad truth of life that artists are rarely fully appreciated until after their passing.

Case in point – Michael Jackson. After his death a lot of people started listening to his music and calling him a genius. All the talk of molestation etc was forgotten, pretty much.

I know people who insist that Bellof is much quicker than Senna for example.

I’m NOT saying Clark/Senna are slow. But come back in 20-30 years and see what people are saying then. There will be a lot less detractors – I guarantee you.

@raymondu999
Good point, this video might be interesting for @freelittlebirds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdCWDSpwv9U