F1 Fanatic

But hamilton has never had bad equipment either @JB
In 2007, it was on a par with the Fezzas, in 2008, it was the class of the field, in the second half of 2009, it was on a par with the Red Bulls, in 2010, it was on a par with the Red Bulls for about half the season, in 2011, it was as fast as the Red Bulls from about Singapore onwards, and in 2012, he has the best car in the field.

Furthermore, in 2005, Alonso did have the best car; F1 isn’t always about being the fastest; the Renault was far more reliable than Kimis McLaren, which meant it was actually a better race car.

@xjr15jaaag

in 2008, it was the class of the field, in the second half of 2009, it was on a par with the Red Bulls, in 2010, it was on a par with the Red Bulls for about half the season, in 2011, it was as fast as the Red Bulls from about Singapore onwards, and in 2012, he has the best car in the field.

Why are you comparing them only to RBR??? Look at the whole grid… And being good only half of the season may it be at the start or the end of it is not having good material! Hamilton has won races in which his car wasn´t the best at that particular race… that´s all I´m saying… When have we seen this from SV?? Once in Monza in a midfielding STR… that´s about it…

@JB

Dude, Fernando Alonso gave them those 2 constructors titles on the years he beat the best! Ferrari had 5 years of domination…

I have to double check, because it is so hard to believe, but are you truly saying that Ferrari had a competitive car in 2005?
And by what measure did Fernando Alonso single-handedly give Renault the constructor’s championships?

Vettel hasn´t done his work in crappy cars… others have…

Because your only definition of a crappy car is the driver. Fernando Alonso never does anything wrong, so when he doesn’t win, it’s because he drives a crappy car. Meanwhile Vettel can’t do anything right, so when he does well, it is always a superior car. Never mind the fact that it is circular reasoning with no argument to stand on.

But did he win?? As I said earlier… stuff breaks sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t

So it is a skill now to be lucky that your competitors break down?
So Alonso won Valencia because he was skilled enough to make Vettel break down, and Vettel failed to win in Belgium because he was not skilled enough to make Button brake down?

Has Vettel ever started from pit lane and fought his way back to sixth in MONACO??

No, Vettel never finished sixth starting from the back in a championship-contending car. He did however finish 5th starting second-last in a lower-midfield car. And the best part: he didn’t even have to wave franticly because a Marussia had the audacity to race for position and Fernando was unable to pass him on skill.

That drive from Alonso in 2010 wasn’t as impressive as it may seem on paper. He benefited from the early SC to do his only pit stop, overtook the drivers in the new teams and then waited for everyone else to do their stops.

This. He just had to overtake 6 much slower cars and he couldn’t do that without throwing his toys out of the pram about di Grassi. The rest was just strategy. There were a lot of great comeback drives from Alonso, but that certainly doesn’t rank amongst his best.

On the subject of crappy cars, I’ll just say that Vettel has done more on midfield cars than Hamilton ever did (because, you know, he only had a midfield car for 9 races in his whole career. From Hungary onwards the MP4/24 was either the best or the second best car at every race as Brawn went backwards).

Anyway, I won’t add anything more to this thread, because @mnmracer is doing a damn good job of saying everything I would have said, but he’s doing it much better than I would.

On the subject of crappy cars, I’ll just say that Vettel has done more on midfield cars than Hamilton ever did (because, you know, he only had a midfield car for 9 races in his whole career. From Hungary onwards the MP4/24 was either the best or the second best car at every race as Brawn went backwards).

It’s often overlooked because of lie-gate, but one of the greatest performances I’ve ever seen in a truly rubbish car was Hamilton in Aus 09. He started dead last and finished on the podium on merit.

I have to double check, because it is so hard to believe, but are you truly saying that Ferrari had a competitive car in 2005?
And by what measure did Fernando Alonso single-handedly give Renault the constructor’s championships?

The 2005 Ferrari was not a competitive car but they where however the reigning championship team, therefore it was expected of them to be competitive which obviously wasn´t the case. And for the second part, I never said he single handedly gave him the titles… that is your assumption but it would be foolish to think that he didn´t have anything to do with it…

Because your only definition of a crappy car is the driver. Fernando Alonso never does anything wrong, so when he doesn’t win, it’s because he drives a crappy car. Meanwhile Vettel can’t do anything right, so when he does well, it is always a superior car.

And yet again, you seem to be putting words in my mouth…. A crappy car is a crappy car, not a driver. I never said otherwise and of course Alonso makes mistakes, he´s human after all but how often have we seen him do them lately? How much more often has Vettel made mistakes… Turkey 2010 comes to mind… Sepang also comes to mind when after flicking Karthikeyan off a couple of times, when he actually passes him then swerves violently towards Narain certainly seemed like a mistake. I could go on about the moaning and such… like : “I´m much faster, do something!!” or the infamous “maintain the gap mark”….

So it is a skill now to be lucky that your competitors break down?
So Alonso won Valencia because he was skilled enough to make Vettel break down, and Vettel failed to win in Belgium because he was not skilled enough to make Button brake down?

Again with the assumptions…. Alonso just got lucky…. but it took skill to get to second place after starting 11th in Valencia which was known to be a track where overtaking was impossible and yet Fernando made it look soooo darn easy… ending up in 1st was just the cherry on top! Oh and by the way…. In Belgium, Vettel wasn´t even close to Button… that dude was long gone! I do tend to remember however Vettel moaning and waving about Lewis unlapping himself in Germany!! Class act right there!

No, Vettel never finished sixth starting from the back in a championship-contending car. He did however finish 5th starting second-last in a lower-midfield car. And the best part: he didn’t even have to wave franticly because a Marussia had the audacity to race for position and Fernando was unable to pass him on skill.

Ummm it has been said earlier before that the STR was no slouch and is comparable to 2012´s Sauber so… I don´t see the point. And on the second part of this statement… reffer to the above… I do remember Vettel Moaning and waving at Hamilton for having the “audacity” to unlap himself… Oh and just to clear something…. Alonso did wave after he tried to go on the inside of the Marussia but sure enough… he got him on the following laps going the long way around and took him on the chicane coming out of the tunnel…. So much for your waving arguement…. LOL… He might wave but in the end he gets it done… And just because I feel Germany 2010 coming up in the debate… Just remember “Mark, you have to maintain the gap” or all the other messages RBR has used…. Mark save fuel… Mark, you might have a slow puncture, etc… So don´t even try to go there, just saying…. ;)

@catracho504

He didn’t really benefit though. Vettel had the worst start of anyone and came out of Turn 1 down in 12th (if Grosjean hadn’t taken out 4 front runners, he would’ve been 16th) – and then the fightback started from there.

And this nonsense about ANYONE knowing ANYTHING about how good a car is – what rubbish.

We don’t – and probably never will – know how quick each car is. Prove to me that the 2012 Ferrari is off the pace, I dare you. Prove to me that Fernando isn’t a tortoise of a driver driving a car that should have 2s/lap over everyone.

On the flipside, prove to me that the 2012 McLaren is on the pace, I dare you. Prove to me that Hamilton isn’t a 2s/lap faster driver driving a 1.5s/lap slower car.

And before you bring 2007 into the comparison – people change. Drivers change. Something that happened 5 years ago doesn’t mean it still is true now.

How competitive was the 2007/2008 STR cars? Nobody. Knows. Prove that it wasn’t actually a stellar car being driven by a rubbish driver. Prove that it wasn’t slower than an HRT, being driven by a godly driver.

Can we all stop this madness and agree to disagree? Otherwise, I recommend a good dose of locking the thread. @estesark @damonsmedley

The 2012 Mclaren got back on the pace in Germany: Only one car finishes though, so they haven’t made up much ground in the constructors.

Hockenheim – second
Hungaroring – 1st (pole)
Spa – 1st (pole)
Italy – 1st (pole)
Singapore – 2nd (pole) (DNF from 1st)