What will Vettel have to do to gain any recognition
18th September 2012, 14:40 at 2:40 pm #210449
*off18th September 2012, 23:40 at 11:40 pm #210450
Alonso should have disputed ferraris decision
Vettel should have build a better alternator ahead of the race in Valencia.
That strategic mistake by Ferrari was as much Alonso’s fault as the alternator problem was Vettel’s fault. It’d ludicrous to blame Alonso for that.
Vettel’s drive at Valencia being so Godly like it is described to be – well it’s much easier to be quicker without tyre wear if you have no wheel-spin with torque mapping.19th September 2012, 3:28 at 3:28 am #210451
@Kingshark I must preface this post by saying that I do not hold Alonso responsible. The times in Q2 were so tight that any prediction was bound to be a make or break gamble.
However, a strategic decision is something that any human can take, be it wrong or right. You need a very specific skillset for that. Disputing a decision is something Alonso/Vettel has the ability to do – building an alternator is not.
Vettel in Valencia was assisted by the mapping, that I give you. But even looking at previous seasons, Vettel has always featured very strongly in Valencia, even in his 08 Toro Rosso. There is bound to be some of his natural speed around Valencia playing a factor in his dominance pre-kapoof.19th September 2012, 4:32 at 4:32 am #210452
I agree that Vettel was good at Valencia, he generally is, but this year it wasn’t even in his top two drives of the season. I firmly believe his drive at Valencia is being over-hyped because of how he pulled a 20 second lead while Hamilton was driving a mediocre Mclaren around that circuit in second place. While he did well, I’d chose Alonso over him on that day.
How about Bahrain, when he actually kept a faster Lotus at bay, or Spa when he overtook countless drivers in a car with horrendous top speed? Those were his real best drivers of the season.19th September 2012, 4:55 at 4:55 am #210453
I’m not here to argue. But he did put in excellent performances for STR other than Monza that got him noticed in the F1 world (like 17th to 4th at Shanghai ’07, or 18th to 5th at Monaco ’08, qualifying 6th at Valencia and Singapore ’08). And even though STR weren’t the worst car on the 2007-08 grids, they weren’t that great either, and it would be incredibly hard to prove them as better than all of the cars other top drivers have taken good results in.19th September 2012, 7:06 at 7:06 am #210454
raymondu999Participant21st September 2012, 15:31 at 3:31 pm #210455
I knew i could count on you to bring out the STR Monza arguement…. and as I said before, if you missed my first post, Vettel is good, I´ll give him that much BUT he is not at the same level as Lewis or Alonso for that matter. I think someone that actually competes against him has explained it well enough.
I agree with what you say but, “even the sun shines in a dog´s pooper once in a while!!” The STR was no slouch, just as this year´s Sauber is no slouch… These teams once in a while get it right when they design a car and it seems STR got it right back then just as Sauber has got it right this year…
I´m just gonna throw this out there…. So… if Vettel won in a STR and became a “champion”, then Perez will most definitely become a champion later on down the road…. you might say he hasn´t won in the Sauber but, to me, Malaysia was his… And this coming from a “biased” Ferrari fan… It would be interesting to read some comments about this…21st September 2012, 20:33 at 8:33 pm #210456
If the driver has no input as to how a team is run, or any decisions made by that team, then that is a poorly organised team, and one that doesn’t deserve to be in F1 @kingshark
Vettel doesn’t build an alternator does he? He has little to no input as to how the engine is made, as that doesn’t really concern him.
With strategy, however, that is where the driver is an integral part of the operation, and where the driver should have the last say.22nd September 2012, 20:27 at 8:27 pm #210457
I would say that Vettel in 2007/8 is not wildly dissimilar to the 2012 Perez. They’re both in a car that will regularly finish mid-pack and on it’s day can finish higher.
Vettel has produced some astounding performances, perhaps not “recognised” last season due to his dominance being pretty boring, so another driver would catch the limelight.
I still wouldn’t say he’s the best driver on the grid, and he’s certainly not as high up as the BBC’s “list” puts him!22nd September 2012, 22:42 at 10:42 pm #210458
what does Sebastian Vettel need to do to get any recognition?
Now that’s like me questioning myself why certain individuals not just on this site but social media have something against Lewis Hamilton.
Anyway, I don’t think recognition is the ‘issue’ with Vettel, it’s the success he’s had & his achievements & how & why he’s asserted the dominance he’s had in recent seasons & the perspectives it’s given fans (including myself). Think about it, you think a casual or insightful fan would really call a particular individual as great as the experts do if variables were controlled in the sense that in this case, all but one of his wins currently in his potentially lengthy career have been won from the front row.
So many times Vettel has been renowned for his technicality (exploitation of his equipment) & excellence in qualifying whilst seemingly his peers in Alonso & Hamilton have been renowned for their completion & natural talent respectively. So referring back to the question, again it’s not recognition it’s the circumstances he’s had his success in.22nd September 2012, 23:38 at 11:38 pm #210459
Then let me rephrase it if you will: why do other drivers get recognition for feats they have not accomplished? If Vettel is slammed for not winning from the back, then why do people credit Alonso and Hamilton for doing that, while they have not (or not in a credible way).
Vettel won from 3rd lowest
Hamilton won from 4th lowest…
Ayrton Senna won only two races from outside the top 4.
People are making up history on the go just so they don’t have to give Vettel any kind of recognition.23rd September 2012, 5:07 at 5:07 am #210460
Ummmm you have gotten your question answered several times by different people…. basically…. Vettel has never had bad equipment…. it´s a “walk” to accomplish the things he has with good equipment.
Alonso in 2005 and 2006 did not have the best equipment and yet managed to beat the “statistically” best driver ever….
Schumi had it “easy” in his Ferrari domination period due to having a superior machine and being a bad-a$$ driver until a boy in a Renault showed up!
There is your answer again in a nut shell…. Alonso beat the best while the best was in his prime and he did it in an inferior car…. Vettel beat everybody but, with a far superior car by a mile! I see no merit in it when it´s done that way and add to that that he basically had very few races not starting on pole with nobody to get in his way….
Sorry for being blunt about it but, sometimes you need comments like these to maybe open your eyes…23rd September 2012, 5:17 at 5:17 am #210461
why do people credit Alonso and Hamilton for doing that, while they have not (or not in a credible way).
I take it you think Valencia is not credible to you? What is so not credible about it? F1 is a motorsport… stuff breaks in motorsports…. Unlucky about the alternator… definitely but, Alonso had to be there in second place in order to get “lucky”… and I´d like to see how many other drivers can come back from 11th and win a race… SV sure as heck hasn´t…. just saying…23rd September 2012, 6:39 at 6:39 am #210462
Yes, someone calling a twice-constructor’s championship winning car an inferior car really opens my eyes…
But seeing how you avoid the actually facts being given, I know what I need to about the value of certain points.
All it took for Vettel to do a 11th – 1st was one alternator faillure onboard the McLaren… just saying..23rd September 2012, 9:06 at 9:06 am #210463
here it goes:
since the driver of the weekend votes, sebastian vettel has won 15 races – and only 4 driver of the weekend “titles”, all of them after wins.
hamilton has always won after winning a race, and twice when vettel won.
alonso only lost when winning a race in hockenheim 2010, for obvious reasons; and once more to perez, in malaysia. but he’s won twice in vettel wins.
button has won every time he has won the race, which is 4; he also snatched one off vettel (monaco 2011).
so that’s the picture. some reasons mentioned on this thread help explain this, but there must be more to it.
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