Group Admins

  • Profile picture of Keith Collantine

Group Mods

  • Profile picture of damonsmedley
  • Profile picture of Bradley Downton

F1

Public Group active 8 hours, 59 minutes ago

F1 discussion

Which competing champion most deserves another title?

This topic contains 33 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by Avatar of Michael Michael 1 year ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #238578
    Avatar of Tayyib
    Tayyib
    Participant

    Fair point Lucas but I still think that if Alonso wants to be mentioned in the same breath as the Sennas, Shcumachers etc he has to win a 3rd world title. It defines his career and validates him as one of the all time greats. I have watched F1 since 1999 when I was 4 and if Alonso wins a 3rd world title it makes him the best I HAVE ever seen not counting Senna, Mansell, Fangio because I wasn’t alive. But also for Alonso he lost by a point in 07, 4 pts in 2010 and 3 last year. I hope he can still do it.

    #238579
    Avatar of mnmracer
    mnmracer
    Participant

    The top 5, bar Jimmy Clark, all have minimum 3 titles. And I’m sorry, but I don’t think Fernando is to be mentioned in the same breath as Jimmy (yet).

    #238580
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Tayyib

    Fair point Lucas but I still think that if Alonso wants to be mentioned in the same breath as the Sennas, Shcumachers etc he has to win a 3rd world title. It defines his career and validates him as one of the all time greats.

    I think Alonso is aware of that too. If he can’t win a 3rd WDC at Ferrari then most folks won’t include him in the same pantheon as the other drivers.

    @Lucas_Wilson Nigel Mansell is an anomaly – even though he has won just 1 WDC, he has enough wins and pole positions to qualify as one of the best and he also won the IndyCar during his 1 year off.

    #238581
    Avatar of Kyle Miller
    Kyle Miller
    Participant

    Raikkonen’s car control skills are truly astounding. I think that the reason he is unable to score more wdc’s is because he don’t have the driving polish of Vettel. Or the team leader ability of alonso.

    #238582
    Avatar of Aditya F. Yahya
    Aditya F. Yahya
    Participant

    in my order: VET-RAI-ALO-HAM-BUT, because:

    VET – he’s undoubtedly doing great and consistent. up until now, he barely have made mistake. I never supported Red Bull and Sebastian, but seriously. I can’t deny he’s doing great. (I’ll never support him, though)
    RAI – his hunger is back. when did you feel it the last time? 2003, 2005, or 2007? He unusually had quite some mistake, sometime losing his cool, but that because he wants to win again. It might be personal view (a fan view), but what crossed your mind when you imagine Kimi is now currently driving for Red Bull or Mercedes?
    ALO – he missed 3 titles by small margins. that was past, this year I see him not as tough as last year. The samurai spirit seems now gone. he’s not consistent enough (Ferrari is partly blamed). he’s still great but underperforming when Ferrari isn’t performing well, simply just not like last season anymore.
    HAM – the tyre-gate has tainted my view of Mercedes, not Lewis. but I simply can’t say whoever driving in the ‘cheating’ team deserved the title.
    BUT – what’s special of him this season? he failed to drag the legendary team of McLaren and strongly challenged by a certain Mexican.

    note: I put HAM higher than BUT, because he’s doing a lot better before the tyre-gate.

    #238583
    Avatar of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    In my opinion, Alonso and then Raikkonen, followed by Hamilton and lastly Vettel and Button. I have a feeling Hamilton may win a WDC driving a Mercedes, perhaps 2014 or 2015. If not in a few years, he may move back to McLaren if they are back near the front again, probably after Button has retired.

    In my eyes, I feel Alonso deserves the 2006, 2007 championships, Raikkonen the 2005 and 2008 championships, Button the 2009 championship (driving for Honda ;)), Vettel the 2010 and 2011 (also now most likely 2013) championships, Hamilton the 2012 championship. I do feel Alonso deserves 3 titles, and with a bit of luck this could have already happened in 2008 (with a McLaren), 2010 or 2012 (in a Ferrari). Into the future, it’ll depend on how Ferrari improve their design team working with computers instead of track testing, and how they adapt to the new engine formula.

    Alonso definitely deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as the best in the sport – same with Raikkonen and the other 3 drivers as outlined here. Their careers have all been exemplary. I feel Alonso and Raikkonen remind me a little of Clark and Ronnie Peterson. Personally, I feel Fangio, Clark and Senna deserve 6 championships, Schumacher 5, Prost 4, Moss, Stewart, Lauda and Gilles Villeneuve 3, Ascari, Brabham, Fittipaldi, Mansell, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Alonso, Vettel 2, Rindt, Andretti/Peterson, Jones, Reutemann, Piquet, Montoya, Button and Hamilton 1 as of this year.

    Part of me wished Alonso could deserve the 2013 championship, but momentum seems to be swinging towards Vettel, and he needs another non-race to be level with Alonso’s 2x non-races, but his car is still a lot better than the Ferrari, probably more with the 2012 tyres, which will give him the title when we head to the October circuits (Singapore, Korea, Japan, India, Abu Dhabi) which he always seems to win. I’m more sad at the fact that the tyre switch could lean the momentum towards Vettel. With RB always spending the most money every year, we need the momentum to swing away from them!

    #238584
    Avatar of Asanator
    Asanator
    Participant

    Alonso, Kimi, Vettel. Probably in that order.

    Hamilton and Button haven’t really done anything since their championship years to deserve another.

    I only put Vettel in 3rd because although he has been awesome over the last 3 years and is probably the benchmark in modern F1, he HAS been driving a very consistent Redbull and 4 in a row is maybe more a reflection on the car than SV himself.

    #238585
    Avatar of Fixy
    Fixy
    Participant

    I’d have said Hamilton, because he always came very close, including obviously last year when reliability cost him the title, but his recent comments where he says “everyone is better than us, our car is the worst ever, I should be winning all the races” made him sound ungrateful to me. This year, out of the 22 drivers, one and one only will be champion, and none of the others comes out with such comments. Not only is Hamilton [being payed for] doing what he loves most, he also has a car which can score podiums, scores poles, won two races, and considering he was lucky to avoid remaining with McLaren this season his comments are out of place.
    Therefore, I now think Raikkonen is the most deserving of another title, simply because to me his comeback was impressive and he seems to have earned, not lost, speed.
    Vettel of course, who will probably win the championship, deserves it because he never fails to perform and his results, which he fights for, are what earn him the titles. I say Kimi because his car cannot fight with the Red Bull, but he still does an amazing job.
    Alonso comes second behind Raikkonen, then Hamilton, Vettel and Button.

    #238586
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Fixy

    everyone is better than us, our car is the worst ever, I should be winning all the races

    When did Hamilton say those things?

    #238587
    Avatar of Bob
    Bob
    Participant

    In my view, from most deserving to least deserving:
    1. Alonso winning his 3rd WDC – Not a fan of his, but even I have to concede Alonso has been consistently impressive even in slightly inferior equipment, especially his valiant 2012 campaign.
    2. Vettel winning his 4th consecutive WDC – He’s hardly put a foot wrong this year, and almost always gotten the job done.
    3. Raikkonen winning his 2nd WDC – He has the gutsy determination and experience to do it. He’s performed solidly since his comeback.
    4. Hamilton winning his 2nd WDC – Hamilton most certainly has the speed, and he did have some awful luck in 2012.
    5. Button winning his 2nd WDC – Speaking as a Button fan, his performances have generally been underwhelming as of late.

    Slightly off topic, in response to @fastiesty:

    With RB always spending the most money every year

    Not quite. From what figures I’ve been able to find, Ferrari spends the most each year, 240 million Euros, compared to 180 million Euros for RBR (both figures for the 2012 season).

    #238588
    Avatar of electrolite
    electrolite
    Participant

    At the minute, Vettel or Kimi are doing the most to deserve another title.

    #238589
    Avatar of Fixy
    Fixy
    Participant

    @freelittlebirds of course he did not say those exact words, but by only reading the title of this article I was annoyed with Lewis.

    The car is a disaster on heavy fuel loads. It’s always a shock when a race goes bad. You never expect it to go as bad as it does. You find you are digging yourself out of a hole right towards the end of a race when all of a sudden the car starts working. It’s very frustrating.

    Surely, he’s sad not to win all races, but I think he’s exaggerated this time. It’s not the end of the world, the car is second in the championship and I don’t know where he has been living, but perfect cars are very rare, an RB7 can’t be made every year and he should be more grateful to the Mercedes engineers for the awesome job they’ve done in improving a car, and he should also be grateful for the fact he’s driving it.

    #238590
    Avatar of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    @bobthevulcan That is a fair figure for the RBR team, but RB have a holding company as well which spends a significant amount, and I think RBR and Toro Rosso are both under this holding company (no doubt that the spend probably goes on designing Red Bull development parts. Red Bull Technology I think it is called). This is what I can remember from Joe Saward’s blog analysis.

    For 2012 figures, I have:
    Red Bull – 605 employees, $344m.
    Ferrari – 600 employees, $240m.
    McLaren – 600 employees, $240m. (Interesting this is the same as Ferrari, considering Ferrari’s extra FOM deal)
    Mercedes – 550 employees, $225m.
    Lotus – 4-500 employees, $190m.
    Williams – 4-500 employees, $145m.
    Toro Rosso – 300 employees, $110m.
    Sauber – 300 employees, $104m.
    Force India – 300 employees, $100m.
    Caterham – 260 employees, $96m.
    Marussia – 175 employees, $105m.

    Guessing that Lotus have near 500 people, Williams near 400. Mercedes have publicised that their 2013 spend has increased, throwing away their 2010-12 strategy of winning with a little less spend, and also taking into account the 2014 engine spend they now spend more than Red Bull (and the car development would back this up – RB are always best through the year, Merc have gained multiple seconds this year and are now keeping up in development). These figures show how Williams did so well last year, as they should do, with a boost from the PDVSA money, but this year they’ve gone down a development blind alley somewhat. Sauber did very well last year, and their star people have now been poached for more money, putting them in a similar position. Force India’s strategy of buying in speed from McLaren has worked well to propel them above their midfield rivals, securing more FOM money each time out. Marussia are now looking to do the same strategy and they are in a lot of bank debt to try and secure this critical 10th place/FOM money, as shown by their spend to employee ratio. Lotus are punching above their weight, and with some significant Honeywell or investor backing, could really challenge the top four teams, but perhaps they need to replace James Allison first.

    I wonder if the knowledge of these figures would change any opinions on who best deserves another WDC, given we now know what machinery they have (and how much it cost to make it).

    #238591
    Avatar of Iestyn Davies
    Iestyn Davies
    Participant

    @fixy – I think his frustration is pretty much borne from the fact that he believes, given equal equipment, that he could probably beat any driver on the grid in a straight fight.

    #238592
    Avatar of Michael
    Michael
    Participant

    @Fixy

    I think he has shown his appreciation towards his new team and even Rosberg every time he gets a good result. He is not blaming the team just the car’s inability to handle heavy fuel loads – is that not true?

    He’s expressing his frustration at losing 2 races in a row from pole position and even a podium – in my opinion, it’s absolutely normal to be ftrustrated in that case. Any real racer would feel that way.

    There’s probably hints of frustration from 2012 there.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 34 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.