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Would Honda have won in 2009? (25 posts)

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OrangeLacedShoe said 1 year, 11 months ago:

The whole rear end was compromised by the Mercedes engine so I think it would have been even quicker than with the more powerful Merc. Besides with all the money Honda would’ve brought they probably would have beaten Red Bull throughout.

And then there’s the whole deal about the Honda KERs which I believe the car was designed around. It was rumored to be one of the best solutions to it. So yes Honda would’ve won just as much as Brawn if not more.

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Keith Collantine said 1 year, 11 months ago:

I remember speaking to a Brawn engineer in 2009 and he reckoned not.

The Honda engine was weaker than the Mercedes and remember that although Button scorched away in the first half of the season he really came under siege after Turkey and didn’t win any more races. The team were grappling with a significant cut in staff and little development on the car. A less competitive engine might have been enough to tip the balance in Red Bull’s favour.

I’m glad things worked out the way they did though – it was one of the most remarkable stories of recent F1 history and I expect it’ll be a long time before we see anything like that again.

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OEL F1 said 1 year, 11 months ago:

The Mercedes-engine might’ve been stronger than the Honda-engine, but the car was built around the Honda-engine. To stuff in the Mercedes-engine, compromises had to be made. I doubt the car would’ve been weaker had it been run by Honda to begin with, and certanly their development pace would’ve been stronger – had they still elected to keep Rubens.

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GeeMac said 1 year, 11 months ago:

The photo that Fixy posted of the Honda “RA109″ was in fact a RA108 running slicks and a basic interim 2009 spec wing. Many teams did similar things in pre-season to try establish the amount of performance they would loose under the new rules.

This is probably the most interesting “what if” scenario in the history of the sport because there are variables involved that provide compelling arguments for both outcomes (the variables being additional money from Honda, the better Mercedes engine, Rubens’ set-up abilities, possibly having Senna in his rookie season).

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Fixy said 1 year, 11 months ago:

You’re right GeeMac and I’m ashamed I didn’t look carefully before posting. As I already said my point is not a great one because the BGP 001 was designed by the Honda designers before ending in Brawn’s hands, but the differences between that and the RA108 are stricking, and I have difficulties imagining they would have been so different if Honda had run the car, but I’m probably the only one.

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GeeMac said 1 year, 11 months ago:

No worries Fixy my man!

I suppose Honda just decided to start with a completely clean sheet of paper with the RA109, because its not like the RA108 was up to much!

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Fixy said 1 year, 11 months ago:

If you look at the F2008 and the F60 they are quite similar given the radical changes in regulations. I’m glad the BGP 001 bears no resemblance to the RA108, in livery or shape, as the Honda was ugly in my opinion whilst the Brawn is one of my favourite cars.

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Coopzer said 1 year, 11 months ago:

Well they would have had the double diffuser, and all research/plans that Brawn GP had was from the Honda base. But who knows.

One thing for sure is that if Honda wasn’t saved by Brawn, Vettel would be looking like a 3rd time championship winner this season! Scary :)

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Aetost said 1 year, 11 months ago:

I was always under the impression that the BGP 001 was a tribute to the RA109. They had to hastily stuff a different engine to it, scrap its KERS (although one can argue that KERS was largely useless during 2009) and try to develop the damn thing without staff and money. Still, they ran away with 2 titles. Did I mention they did little pre-season testing?…
Now, we don’t know how crappier the Honda engine would have been, how much input Rubens had to the setup or, more importantly, how much would the Honda top brass interfere with the day-to-day running of the team…
As Keith said, they probably would have not (though I could wonder how kind would an engineer’s remarks have been towards his ex-employers that, almost, left him without a job).
Still, I believe that they’d probably be very competitive as a Honda works team..

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James_mc said 1 year, 11 months ago:

Oddly enough I felt that KERS was much more interesting in 2009 as only some teams had it and only 1 really managed to get it work.

I’ll completely disregard Keith’s story for my comment which is thus:

Yes, I think it would have because I believe from what I’ve read here and there that compromises were made to the tightly-packaged bodywork that you get on any F1 car to shoehorn a different engine unit in. And Red Bull/Newey this year have demonstrated the benefits of compact packaging versus mechanical technology trade-off.

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