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Video: Vettel’s ’yellow flag’ overtakes

This topic contains 206 replies, has 61 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Bullfrog Bullfrog 1 year, 10 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 136 through 150 (of 207 total)
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  • #216060
    Profile photo of David
    David
    Participant

    For anyone that cares the regulations are here:

    http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf

    Light signals
    Lights may be used to supplement or replace waved red, yellow,
    green, blue and white flags. When lights are to be used at an
    event they should be described in the Supplementary Regulations and the following requirements should be respected.

    As I read it, lights can either supplement OR replace flags. So they are either equal to or less than flags. Without access to the Supplementary Regulations for the event, they could be either.

    Considering both cases:
    - If the yellow flashing light following the green flag was a supplementary light, the flag has precedence, therefore racing could begin and continue at the waved green flag (light supplement incorrect).
    - If the yellow flashing light replaced a flag, then it is an independent flagging position. Racing may occur between the waved green flag, and the yellow flashing light.

    That is my 2p. I will pipe down now. Let’s see if this protest happens, and how it plays out. Never a dull moment in F1 :-).

    #216061

    Does anyone have a decent picture of the Floppy Marker, either way?

    #216063
    Profile photo of David
    David
    Participant

    @F1Rollout

    The lights can either be controlled locally, or by race control. I suspect in this case it was race control. Race control should also direct a flagging station what to flag via radio. It is possible there was a miscommunication – it happens, even with the highly professional marshals that work these events.

    (PS Apparently I they are marshals not marshalls – apologies for my spelling errors)

    #216064
    Profile photo of David
    David
    Participant

    @Bob if that is the case, then I am not sure what all the fuss is about? There is no yellow light between the marshal post displaying green and the green flashing light?

    #216065
    Profile photo of celeste
    celeste
    Participant

    @keithcollantine I´m glad for your site and for you being a voice of reason in this mess

    #216066
    Profile photo of Bob
    Bob
    Participant

    @f1rollout – Consider the order in which the flags and lights are seen in the video.
    0:14 – Yellow light
    0:15 – Green flag
    0:25 – Green light
    The light at the end of the straight (0:25) is the first track signal situated after the marshal’s post showing the green flag. This would confirm that a green flag was in effect for the stretch of track after the marshal’s post.

    @nanof1 – As I mentioned, it is very hard to judge distances using onboard camera, given the distortion of the lens and camera angle. As for whether Vettel deployed KERS before passing the post, the yellow light on the KERS display seems to come on simultaneously, or slightly before. Should the FIA decide to investigate it, the telemetry from RBR should be able to clarify this.

    #216067
    Profile photo of Fernando
    Fernando
    Member

    @Keith Collantine
    If I understood it the complete article is like this text:

    179bis. Right of review
    If, in events forming part of a FIA Championship, a new element
    is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have
    already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing
    this, those designated by the FIA, must meet on a date agreed
    amongst themselves, summoning the party or parties concerned
    to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the
    facts and elements brought before them.
    The right of appeal against this new decision is confined to the
    party or parties concerned in accordance with the final paragraph
    of Article 180 and the following Articles of this Code.
    Should the first decision already have been the subject of
    an appeal before the National Court of Appeal or before the
    International Court of Appeal, or successively before both of
    these courts, the case shall be lawfully submitted to them for
    the possible revision of their previous decision. The International
    Court of Appeal may take up the review of a case that it has
    judged, either on its own initiative or upon an appeal in review
    brought by the FIA President or by one of the parties concerned
    and/or directly affected by its former decision.
    The period during which an appeal in review may be brought
    expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision
    that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is
    likely to have an effect on the result of a championship.

    That Means thar If FIA do not investigated it by thenselves with the new elements, Any parties concerned, (Ferrari, Alonso, Mercedes, Schumacher, Toro Rosso or Vergne) can appeal to the International Court Appeal.

    That is right?

    #216068
    Profile photo of Matt
    Matt
    Member

    Rarely post here but have to agree that certainly looks like KERS is being deployed:

    Trusting this image http://i49.tinypic.com/212bl1c.jpg I believe this screenshot I just took shows the stand for the marshal on the far left under the BBC logo:

    http://i46.tinypic.com/1zcjssy.jpg

    If so then as can be seen here KERS is being deployed and I find it hard to believe that Vettlel has already passed the green flag based on the position of the tower for the marshal alone.

    #216069
    Profile photo of Keith Collantine
    Keith Collantine
    Keymaster

    @nanof1 I don’t think so. As I understand it the “any parties concerned” part refers to anyone protesting the outcome of the FIA’s new investigation, if there were one.

    For example, say the FIA makes a new decision, e.g. “Vettel overtook a car under a yellow flag”. As a consequence a “party or parties concerned” (e.g. Red Bull) would have a “right of appeal against this new decision”.

    On an unrelated note, as a former Ferrari team principal Jean Todt better make sure he handles this one carefully if the FIA goes anywhere near it.

    #216070
    Profile photo of Fernando
    Fernando
    Member

    @Matt McKenna
    Matt very interesting, is important to say that your marshall screen shot is from lap 3 when the light in front of it were green, in lap 4 the light were yellow flashing, like anybody can see in the onboard video that I post on page 8 or 9.

    #216071
    Profile photo of Aaron
    Aaron
    Member

    Slightly off the topic of the yellow versus green debate, but is there any telemetry (or other information) on whether Vergne was deliberately slowing to let Vettel past anyway? I know those STRs have been shocking this year, but Vergne was tucked up behind the car in front coming out of the corner, by half way down the straight he looked at least 5 or 6 car lengths behind them when Vettel overtook.

    #216072
    Profile photo of Matt
    Matt
    Member

    Perhaps we should discuss potential penalties if he were penalised for either flags or KERS use and which of those penalties change the outcome of the championship.

    I assume a drop of two places (19.2 seconds) is all that is required as Vettel finished +9.4 secs in 6th place and 8th place was Vergne at +28.6 seconds. Therefore either DSQ or 20+ second penalty would drop Vettel 4 points.

    Does anyone know if anyone has ever avoided a penalty for ignoring flags or been given less than a 20 second penalty? I can’t remember any.

    The irony perhaps in all this is that if the STR of Vergne, had slowed down another 0.8 seconds before crossing the line Vettel could have been handed a 20 second penalty with no change to the championship result. Amusing considering that is the driver Vettel passed.

    The Red Bull B Team amazingly weren’t going too slow… they were going too fast!

    #216073
    Profile photo of Matt
    Matt
    Member

    @Fernando The video was taken directly before the overtake – from this Video (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20535302), it doesn’t have a lap number displayed but I’m sure this is the questionable maneuver.

    #216074
    Profile photo of stig
    stig
    Participant

    Wat I would love to know more about (from the fia) is why for the same accident (Maldonado):
    - the straight line is under yellow at the beginning of lap 3 (can see the marshal at the exit of the pit lane showing a yellow)
    - then when vettel comes (still on lap 3), the straight line is green. There’s no light on the dash of the red bull on the onboard and the light is green on the right at the exit of the curve.
    - then the straight is yellow again on lap 4 but only with the light whereas the marshal seems to show a green flag.
    (All of this can be seen from the onboard race link posted above)

    It looks like somebody don’t really know what to do. How can the driver know much? And why at the beginning there is a yellow in the straight as there is nothing wrong there.

    #216075
    Profile photo of Fernando
    Fernando
    Member

    @Matt McKenna
    Sorry Matt I could not see BBC video cause it is not available in my territory, If you check this video on board in real time, you can see that Vettel Overtook Marusia in Lap 3 on green lights (in front of Marshall post) and Vergne in Lap 4 on yellow flashing lights. When I see the A3 video (F1 TV Holders in Spain so I suppoused that it is the same video than BBC, because is the same signal all over the world) I can see the same screen shot that you took on lap 3.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O88bMlNYpc

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