Video: Vettel’s ’yellow flag’ overtakes
29th November 2012, 0:21 at 12:21 am #216045
If Charlie controls the lights, and the marshalls control the flags, and the two are doing different things, that is the FIA and race control’s problem, not the drivers.
Even if the marshall is displaying the wrong flag, flags take precedence over flashy lights in the rules as far as I know (and they should).
Mistakes happen at 200mph, but on this occasion I don’t see Vettel did anything wrong.
I don’t have a horse in this race, but Ferrari won’t win any of my respect by launching an appeal on this. I don’t think Vettel passed under a known yellow condition due to contradictory signals from the track staff and race control, and I doubt he gained a material advantage in any case, the TR was going to let him by pretty easily at the next corner anyway.29th November 2012, 0:23 at 12:23 am #216046
On lap 3 lights are green but on lap 4 when Vettel overtakes is a yellow flashing lights very clear. But lights are not a simply repeater mechanism, lights are activated by Charlie Whiting on control tower, you can read it on the lights providers web site.29th November 2012, 0:24 at 12:24 am #216047
What was the point of introducing lights if flag was already there. To avoid this scenario where a driver is unable to see a flag in bad conditions. So in no way Flag takes precedence over lights. Just because the word flag is in the rule book it takes precedence doesnt make sense. Even if it does, do you think vettel saw it?29th November 2012, 0:33 at 12:33 am #216048
And Vettel doesnt deserve this championship by any means. Imagine Petrov moving over for Alonso in 2012 just like everybody moved over for Vettel in Brazil. F1 has never been fair and it will never be like other sports. I am huge fan and following it siince 1998. But moments like these disappoint me.29th November 2012, 0:33 at 12:33 am #216049
@nanof1, @f1rollout – None of this changes the fact that a green flag was present and being waved from the marshall’s post (it is very clearly visible in the gif that August posted). As others have stated, physical waved flags take precedence over the trackside or dashboard light displays, thus Vettel’s overtake was under green flag conditions, and legal.
Even if the marshall was displaying the green flag in error without Charlie Whiting’s consent, the fault in this scenario rests not with Vettel (who was racing in accordance with the displayed flag), but with race control.29th November 2012, 0:36 at 12:36 am #216050
I can see it very clear in the gif, but not so clear in the video without rev counter on the screen. What do you think about the incredible speed that the marshall shown in the gif?, I think that he has an arm faster than the redbull, maybe the faster arm on the earth because if you look the minimun distance that the redbull run along and the double movement that the marshall can do in that short period of time it is at least amaizing.29th November 2012, 0:39 at 12:39 am #216051
@f1rollout – if the flags don’t have any meaning when the lights are showing – get rid of the flags. I’ve been unable to track down the correct section of the regs that define this, but if you pass:
1) Flashing yellow light 1
2) Waving green flag
3) Flashing yellow light 2
4) Flashing green light
You are, by application of equal status of the light and flags, free to race between 2 & 3, and from 4 on.
If the flag at point 2 was shown in error, that is no fault of the drivers. And yes, I do think the drivers look for the flags – they are there for their safety and assistance.29th November 2012, 0:40 at 12:40 am #216052
Where is it written that Flags take precedence over lights and why would they take precedence? The lights were introduced later on and are suppose to take precedence because the Flag method is not efficient enough. Its simple.29th November 2012, 0:42 at 12:42 am #216053
Think that I belive that a marshall show a green flag on the post, What about the use of KERS before the green post?, that is clear not allowed on yellow flag conditions, and yellow flag conditions are from light to post if I belive that a marshall are showing a green flag on it.29th November 2012, 0:42 at 12:42 am #216054
@f1rollout – It is a given that F1 drivers will be able to spot things like flags being waved while travelling at high speed. If they can read the details on the pit boards while passing by, I would be surprised if Vettel didn’t see the flag, especially as eyesight is far clearer than the grainy video quality that we are dissecting.
@nanof1 – The camera angle and visual distortion caused by the lens makes judging distances very difficult. I don’t see how the speed of the marshal’s waving motion is relevant. Having rewatched the video you initially posted, it seems that Vettel passed the marshall/green flag at 0:16, and started using KERS at approximately 0:17, or at least, the split second after passing the post.29th November 2012, 0:44 at 12:44 am #216055
The BBC has written, without citation, that the on track signals take precedence over the cockpit lights, so lets assume they have a source, and that is correct.
In that case, it matters not a jot whether the lights or flags have precedence. If you pass a ‘green indicator’ you are free to race until such time as you pass a ‘yellow indicator’ flag or light. Thus Vettel passed between a green and yellow, and cannot be penalized.
If the on track lights take precedence, then they should just get rid of the flags to remove any ambiguity.
And yes you can wave a flag that fast when there is adrenaline flowing…29th November 2012, 0:47 at 12:47 am #216056
In addition, the drivers know where all the flag positions are. This is why the marshalls display flags at the start of every session, so the drivers have a chance to spot the flag positions. Their lives can depend on it, so they are looking for these, among the other things going on in the cockpit.29th November 2012, 0:51 at 12:51 am #216057
Some publications are reporting that ‘Ferrari are considering a protest’. Sky, for example, say:
Ferrari are reportedly considering an appeal against the result of Sunday’s Brazilian Grand Prix.
If they are successful with any appeal it could alter the destination of the drivers world championship title which Sebastian Vettel won on Sunday at Interlagos. [...]
If Ferrari successfully appeal, the FIA could add 20 seconds to Vettel’s race time which would see the German drop to eighth place in the race – and that would mean Alonso would be world champion.
But Sky and many others running similar stories have overlooked that Ferrari cannot lodge an appeal at this stage.
Article 174 (d) of the International Sporting Code makes this clear (emphasis added):
Protests against any error or irregularity occurring during a competition, referring to the non-compliance of vehicles with the regulations and concerning the classification established at the end of the event shall, except in circumstances which the stewards of the meeting consider as physically impossible, be made within thirty minutes of the official publication of the results.
This will be familiar to everyone who remembers the end of the 2007 season, when McLaren attempted to protest the result of that year’s season finale in Brazil in a dispute over fuel temperatures. Their appeal was declared inadmissible because they had protested against a stewards’ decision instead of doing what article 174 (d) told them to – namely, to protest the race classification within 30 minutes of the results being published.
If Ferrari were going to protest the results of the Brazilian Grand Prix, they should have done the same thing, but obviously they haven’t.
The only way this can be investigated now is if the FIA chooses to do so. Again the International Sporting Code explains the procedure (article 179bis Right of Review):
If, in events forming part of a FIA Championship, a new element is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, must meet on a date agreed amongst themselves, summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them. [...]
The period during which an appeal in review may be brought expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is likely to have an effect on the result of a championship.
Note the deadline – that’s tomorrow. So unlike in 2007, we won’t have to wait very long to discover the outcome of this one.29th November 2012, 0:54 at 12:54 am #216058
Lets assume there was a green flag at marshal’s post. so how come it conflicts with lights. Its only possible when the Electrical system doesnt work properly and FIA can clear us on it if it was working properly or not.If the marshall showed the green flag, the lights have to be green because they are just the repetition mechanism of flags.So i doubt if there was any green flag. Even if there was one , FIA did not consider it and overruled it in which case lights got the precedence.29th November 2012, 0:57 at 12:57 am #216059
Kers is begining to use it when indicator lights on, not when it begin to decrease, it is not like DRS that need authorization to use it, they can use it when ever they want. If you check it again you can see clearly that when it lights on is still at least 10 m away from marshall post.
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