“Few developments” for Virgin before Turkey

2011 Malaysian Grand Prix

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Jerome d'Ambrosio, Virgin, Melbourne, 2011

Virgin will not have many performance upgrades ready for their car until the fourth round of the season.

Team principal John Booth said they would not be bringing many new parts for the car in the next two races despite the team coming close to not qualifying in Australia.

Jerome d’Ambrosio and Timo Glock were inside the 107% time by 0.4 and 1.4 seconds respectively in Melbourne.

Booth said: “This round of long-haul races means there are few developments we can bring to the car until the next significant upgrade for Turkey.

“Our focus for now is on gathering as much data as possible to plough back into the development cycle to ensure we can go on to make those bigger steps through the season.

“This time last year we were struggling with reliability issues that were preventing us from finishing races. This year we’ve demonstrated that we are on top of that and that is a much better starting point to build upon.

“We know what we have to do, so whilst that work is taking place behind the scenes, the best job we can do is to keep bringing cars home and focusing on smaller incremental steps.”

Timo Glock said he should be ready for one of the toughest driver fitness challenges of the year in Malaysia following his pre-season appendix surgery:

“The heat and humidity are really punishing and so this is where the physical training really pays off.

“I feel like I have got back on track very quickly with the fitness side of things and I am spending the time between Australia and Malaysia making sure I am fully acclimatised and ready for the challenge.”

2011 Malaysian Grand Prix


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    Keith Collantine
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    38 comments on ““Few developments” for Virgin before Turkey”

    1. I wonder how much that 2-3 week laps matters for fitness.
      But maybe Glock won’t even have to endure the race with it, if they don’t find a lot of speed with setup of the car.

      Sounds pretty worrying for them. I perfectly understand, why they looked at getting it reliable, that was a good decision. But it must be utterly frustrating to be back where they were last year speed wise.

      1. You’ve hit the nail on the head there.

        They have had the most stable of the 3 newer teams in terms of same trans, engine etc and seem to have not managed to

        To me, the CFD only route is fine for publicity, but if I was wirth I’d be popping over to Fondmetal or Toyota under cover of night and getting in the windtunnel.

        It just doesnt seem that they are improving, despite a stable platform.

        Still think Glocks decision to go to Virgin was absolutely crazy.

        1. I don’t think not running a wind tunnel has to much to do with it.

          The problem seems to be more a lack of someone like Newey, Byrne, Walker, Gascoyne or indeed Willis or a Key to get some fresh ideas into the design.
          Either Wirth is afraid of trying something exiting, or he ran out of ideas for F1.

          If they get a good idea, the CFD will enable them to make the car fit it pretty well, but without it … not much chance of a leap forward.

          1. dyslexicbunny
            1st April 2011, 14:28

            They could be still trying to dial in a lot of stuff for CFD. The people I’ve talked to that use CFD (I work in an AE lab) mention a significant number of calibration parameters so you have to compare data to results until you can dial it in. I’m not a CFD guy so I don’t know enough about it though.

            I’d like them to beat HRT this year but I am getting worried that they can’t. Virgin’s got 14-15 now but I’d expect to continue to see some uncertainty until Turkey. HRT could sneak another good result in somewhere.

            1. Isn’t this what McLaren were trying to do in testing?

            2. dyslexicbunny
              2nd April 2011, 2:12

              I assume everyone is doing it in testing. But even then, you’re only so limited. My understanding is that if you come up with something that is significantly different to what you’ve got, anything downstream might be effected. But again, I don’t do CFD so I could be easily wrong.

              Provided you build enough of a database, you should have enough information though. But that’s just how I would do things.

              I would imagine though for general things, even if it’s not dialed in, you could get an idea for what might work and what might not. The trends should be good just the results might not be accurate.

          2. I think the lack of well over a hundred million euro is having some detrimental effect on Virgin’s performance too.

      2. Virgin are British and also have that iconic Virgin brand associated with them, the hatred won’t be anywhere near as much as HRT. End of.

        1. Hating either of them seems rather silly. All we’re talking about is a group of people trying to build a racing car.

          1. dyslexicbunny
            1st April 2011, 17:22

            But that’s not relevant to this hate! (/sarcasm)

    2. HRT have been the most hated F1 team ever, if Virgin don’t improve soon then they will also come in the list as well.

      1. At least they got some testing in.

        That said, it surely will be more embarrasing for Virgin to not qualify as they at least got some miles under the belt in Spain!

        1. But they just don’t get the thing in their mind that a F1 can can’t be all about CFD.

          1. It’s a budget thing. I don’t think they seriously believe only-CFD is the best way forward at the moment. But eventually all the teams will have to rely more and more on CFD as the RRA (Resource Restriction Agreement) comes into effect and Virgin reckon they’ll have a jump on the others when that happens.

            1. dyslexicbunny
              1st April 2011, 14:53

              When does the RRA come into full effect? I know last year there was an agreement to not exceed some amount I can’t remember. Is it going to be stricter in the future?

            2. Did a quick search and unsurprisingly there’s very few details to be had. All is really known is that the current one applies to the year and a new one was negotiated last year because the current one a) apparently has some loopholes (remember there were some complaints that Red Bull over-spent to win the championship) b) was “too aggressive” in its cost-cutting. The new one is supposed to run from 2012 to 2017, I guess we’ll see the same amount cut but over a slower period than the original.

            3. The RRA is a negotiated team thing. The teams that have the ability to spend (Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, Mercedes), will only pay it lip service until it is binned. Teams without MONEY will not survive, let alone succeed.

              This belief that the the big spenders do not have CFD facilities that at least rival Nick Worth’s is ridicules.

              Virgin along with HRT are working on a shoestring and will be LUCKY to survive.

      2. Are HRT “hated”?

        I just think they’re rubbish.

        1. tolgakaranlik
          1st April 2011, 15:53

          I agree, this team is just not necessary. Every cent they spend is a waste for both them and F1

          1. I disagree entirely, every extra team in F1 is worth it, don’t forget, not so long ago we we’re starting to run out of teams.

            1. Geordie_Porker
              2nd April 2011, 10:14

              +1 Mike.
              HRT have had a really rocky start because they’ve got no money. I’d like to see F1 become more viable for the teams (look at Williams’ struggle, selecting Pastor & floating the company), but that will only happen if someone takes over from Bernie E…until then, anyone who can produce an F1 car on a shoestring budget is doing well as far as I’m concerned – go Virin, go HRT, and (to a lesser extent) go Green Lotus.

        2. Ecclestone and Montezemolo sure seem to “hate” them

    3. It will be interesting to see the performance gap between these guys and HRT…once HRT make the grid.

      Continuing down the path of CFD is all well and good but you need a good basis for the car and a wind tunnel can give you a better insight. There will be plenty of questions asked come mid-season if this car doesn’t start to challenge Lotus.

      1. They might be having trouble with the quality of their CFD. From all I know CFD is far from perfect, but a very useful tool once you understood what it does wrong and how it does it wrong. You make a model in the computer, calculate everything, go to a track, test it, look at the data, compare to the theoretical data, make changes, calculate, go testing, measure data, compare and so on. And finally after a long time you have an understanding of the accuracy and the limitations of your computer models and thats when you can start developing (at least thats how we work it at our tiny students team at my university, because some professors advised us that way, but obviously we don’t have to do aerodynamics as complicated as in F1).
        Virgin had all last year and about 4000km of testing to get to a point of understanding but seems they are not there yet and as long as they aren’t, their developments are nothing but shots in the dark, but they should help them get closer to understanding their system. McLaren seem to be rather good in this as their development pace of recent years has showed, but they are better than Virgin anyway.

        If they can get to understand their system they will get to understand their car and be able to improve on it, until then I see them under threat of being worse than HRT. HRT came with 0 and was 1,7s slower than Virgin who came with 4000km of testing and 3 FPs to develop a good setup plus a very determined Glock who I rate much too fast for this car. Not looking good for Virgin so far.

        1. I remember talking to Jock Clear before the start of the 2010 season and he believed that this is strong technology but needs a wind tunnel as well. He also said that the technology is probably ahead of its time, reckoning that the Virgin would be well off the pace.

          He was proved right, but Virgin are doing a good job (small fuel tank last year aside).

          My concern is that Turkey may be too far away as all teams are improving at an exceptional rate these days and they were not exactly comfortable in Melbourne for the 107% rule.

    4. Glock is worth a better team :(

    5. The only move stupider than JV’s move to BAR is Glock’s move to Virgin. I wonder if Glock knew that they weren’t going to have any wind tunnel testing before he signed teh contract.

      1. Adrian Morse
        1st April 2011, 18:07

        Did Glock have any options within F1 for 2010, then? I don’t suppose he turned down any Ferrari or Red Bull contracts to drive for Virgin.

        1. He had a place at Renault secured if he had wanted it end of 2009. But with Renault unsecure about its own future, Glock chose to go with Virgin.

          1. Without Petrov’s roubles they might have only been as good as Williams, so perhaps not the worst move ever.

    6. I’ve said it before, and I will continue and only stop after 10 consequetive races outsiode 107% for both cars:

      Virgin will become better!

      Last year, they had that stupid fuel tank issue, a general lack of reliability and at the start of this season Glock drove too little miles. This all compromised getting data, knowing how to match the data to the CFD and knowing the best set up.

      And, as seen last year at HRT, but also this year at Mercedes, setting up the car can make a big difference.

      So, I would say about next year, when they have learned how to match the track data to the CFD, we will see what they can do.

    7. Funny enough Branson seems to have just vanished from the scene. Perhaps hehas gone one one of those rond the world balloon adventures.
      If only he had invested in HRT, we would have a team better able to compete with Lotus.
      What makes them think they even have the best CFD solution in F1.
      Isn’t the use of CFD supposed to save you from building too many real life parts? Shouldn’t that also afford you the ability to try out different design concepts? Unless of course your CFD tools only allow you a one dimensonal approach to performance, ie, minimizing drag, which is great if you are designing a tear drop, rather than a multidimensional approach that allows you to optimize your drag to downforce ratio and not just building an arrow and then adding wings.
      I am not going to laugh at the team or call them a joke. Perhaps they are doing their best. But one thing I know is that there is a point in time when you have to take away responsibility for designs away from a researcher and give it to an engineer. Because more often than not, a researcher is an idealist, while an engineer is a realist.

      1. Typing from a phone makes it harder to spot typos but easier to make them.

      2. If only he had invested in HRT, we would have a team better able to compete with Lotus.

        Keep in mind Lotus has a significantly bigger budget than either of the other new teams. Starting a new team makes this doubly important as new teams simply do not have the facilities, processes and personnel to compete immediately.

        These teams will catch up. But only if they are given a chance to do so!

    8. I have to admit : The term’s “Virgin” and “Turkey” kind of suit each other in an F1 context.

    9. That may be true or not so true regarding funding. I do know for certain that Virgin has had a much better financial situation than HRT. They are not swimming in money but there is enough to the pay bills and then go racing. HRT on the other hand don’t have the luxury of a guaranteed budget.

    10. i think when talking virgin, nick wirth and cfd people forget that wirth proberly has more cfd experience than anyone else in f1 and wirth research proberly have some of the best cfd models as well.

      wirth has been playing with cfd for a fair few years and dont forget the 2 alms acuras he designed were heavily dependant on cfd and in fact all development of the lmp1 acura was done via cfd.

      also wirth said on a few occasions last year that every update they put on the car did exactly what the cfd data said it would which is a positive thing.

      1. If Worth was so much more experienced/knowledgeable in CFD than all the F1 teams please explain why NOBODY bought his company or EVEN used him as a consultant over the last few years. NONSENSE.

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