Cosworth CA2010 engine

Teams consider changes to 2013 engine rules

F1 Fanatic round-upPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

In the round-up: The switch to four-cylinder engines in 2013 agreed last year could be revised.


Top F1 links from the past 24 hours:

Power play over new F1 rules (BBC)

“Insiders say that, realistically, any decision will have to be made by the end of the summer. Any longer than that, and any objections will be academic – enough money will have been spent on the new engines that they might as well be adopted. So if Ecclestone and Ferrari are going to spike the 2013 engine rules, they are going to have to get on with it.”

Boullier: 2013 engine debate open (Autosport)

“We all signed this agreement in Singapore so that means at one stage we agreed on something. So we have to get back to the basis of this agreement and push back to finalise it. I am quite confident we will be able to find something.”

Doctor gives his view on Kubica?s chances of F1 comeback (James Allen)

“Remember that the biggest injuries were with the nerves, which have long lead times to heal: at least six months. But we already have encouraging signs of recovery. I think a first time to take stock of the recovery has to be done six months after the accident.”

McLaren and the Libyan dictator… Gaddafi link to British F1 team (Daily Mail)

“A McLaren spokesman said: ‘We explored this with [Alex] Waters, and emailed him computer- rendered illustrations of what a McLaren car might look like if such a sponsorship were to come into being, but no meetings between any personnel from McLaren and any personnel from the consortium from Libya ever took place and the deal therefore never reached square one.'”

Bernie Ecclestone and FIA in dispute over Bahrain Grand Prix (Daily Telegraph)

“As far as we are concerned a decision is still due on Sunday. Because it’s a weekend it may be Monday morning that we announce the decision, but we haven’t spoken to Mr Ecclestone about any delay. The decision will be a joint one between the FIA, [Ecclestone?s] Formula One Management and the Bahrain authorities.”

Schumacher plans to fulfil contract (ESPN)

“[Admittedly] 42 [years old] is not the same as 25…I will fulfil my three year contract with Mercedes and afterwards work as a representative of the brand.”

Ecclestone offers hope to Bahrain, Turkey (Reuters)

“I think Turkey is a bloody good circuit. All the facilities there are good, everything is good except we don’t have a big crowd. I would be disappointed if we lose it but we can’t keep subsidising it.”

Caterham F1 ?ǣ Nothing New (The Race Driver)

“As a former Caterham racer and owner of a ??genuine?? Caterham (a 1966 Lotus Super Seven) I feel bound to remind all our readers and viewers that Brausch Niemann started the 1962 Rand GP at the wheel of a Lotus Super Seven and, after 1hr 20min of racing, finished an amazing eleventh, only five laps behind the Lotus 25-Climax of the eventual winner, Jim Clark.”

Formula One Fantasy – Williams? Rubens Barrichello (F1)

“I am a fan of Lewis Hamilton and I would like to see Robert Kubica alongside him. I think that could be a great driver line-up.”

Buemi’s diary: A shift at the factory

“I think we were pleasantly surprised by the tyres, as we had expected some difficulties, but it actually seemed to work quite well on that front. Certainly the races were very exciting and I have to say that the DRS ?ǣ the moveable rear wing ?ǣ definitely worked better, or at least had more effect, than I had expected.”

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Comment of the day

Thumbs up to Mark Webber from Viper-7:

Nice to see drivers concerned about their fans. Good one Mark.

From the forum

How did you get into F1? Share your story here.

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On this day in F1

Mika Hakkinen lost victory in the 2001 Spanish Grand Prix on the final lap.

The McLaren driver had over half a minute hand when he stopped with a broken clutch halfway around the final tour.

His misfortune handed victory to Michael Schumacher:

61 comments on “Teams consider changes to 2013 engine rules”

  1. Ah 2001, it all went wrong for Mika, no wonder he never came back. A sad end to his career.

    Speaking of which, it would be nice to see Schumacher go out with a win. Even Hakkinen had that consolation.

    Hamilton and Kubica? Never really thought of it but that could have been a good line-up. Sadly I don’t expect a full recovery from Robert, just a hope.

    Nice bit of spin by Eccles there, suggesting ticket revenue and not his fees are what’s endangering the Turkish race.

    1. That could make an interesting topic for the Forum actually- drivers who bowed out in style. I’m struggling to think of any, because most careers seem to fizzle out towards the end, but here are a few more:

      Frentzen – Finished 3rd for Sauber in his penultimate race, the 2001 US GP

      Brundle – 6th at Suzuka 96. Outqualified and outdrove his team mate Barrichello in his final race

      Prost – 2nd at Adelaide 93. Decent result that’s since been completely overshadowed as it turned out to be Senna’s last win

      Magnussen – I just watched this race the other day, and I thought it was harsh that he got sacked straight after finishing 6th and scoring his first point at Canada 98! He never did get another drive. Shame

      1. Frentzen was 3rd in the 2003 US GP, silly me

      2. Could be an idea for one of your Top 10 articles!

        1. unnnococooc
          29th April 2011, 4:00

          Should also be noted that Prost bowed out as world champion

          Senna you know the story

          Raikkonen did quite well for a bad car at the end of 09

      3. Schumacher at Brazil 2006 was probably the best example of a driver ending their career in style, until of course he returned.

      4. Always felt sorry for David Caulthard, 1st corner of the Brazilian GP 2008 for his final race.

  2. Wow, McLaren, what’s with all this cosying up to the dictatorships?? They’re already part Bahraini owned, but clearly they just weren’t despotic enough so they had to top up their evil levels with a bit of Gadaffi. This leads me to wonder if the North Korean Communist Party might be interested in purchasing that empty space on their rear wing?…

    1. I wonder if we will see a ‘Visit Iran’ on a future mclaren?

      1. Ron Dennis feels that if he doesn’t have enough suitably sinister connections he doesn’t have the gravitas to look all brooding and master plan in the garages.

        Eventually the bad PR may force them to do something about it. Or not. Whatever happens when they do finally put something on that rear wing it better be spectacular, the build up is killing me.

        1. Should’ve stuck to the black & silver colour scheme then. Far more sinister-looking than red & chrome :D

    2. Well, the LIA (the Libyan fund) had more than 40 billion dollar to invest. As nice as that sounds, its harder done than said, so obviously they looked into everything thats out there. They hold share in a couple of banks, most notably Unicredit and RBS. Also I wouldn’t be surprised if they had some stock of their favourite american banks Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. Furthermore they own about 2.5% of Fiat, so basically they are already invested in F1 a bit. Also they own a lot of hotels, if a F1 fan ever stayed at Ramada Budapest, he funded the Libyan dictator that way :-P
      I don’t find it very surprising that there was a plan to invest in a F1 team. People seem to forget that after 2001 everyone loved Gaddafi, he was our new african knight in shining armour, protecting us from the thousands of africans tyring to get into the EU, delivering nice cheap oil (3rd biggest oil import to my country comes from Libya) and helped finance campaigns for Sarkozy and Berlusconi (with whom he had some investments going aswell). And lets not forget who sold him a lot of the military equipment he is now fighting his own people with.
      The change of mind came very quickly, first he was the uber-terrorist, then our good friend, now he is suddenly uber-evil once again (he probably is quite evil and quite crazy but certainly not stupid).
      Oh and Ron Dennis’ link with the evil in the world is quite fun, surprised Bernie wasn’t in on any deals with them :-P
      (I guess nobody really wanted to get that much info, but here you have it anyway :-P)

      1. No, it was interesting :)

    3. Wow, McLaren, what’s with all this cosying up to the dictatorships??

      I think you’ll find the son McLaren were dealing with was the one who convinced Qaddafi to disband Libya’s WMD program. One of the sons actually seems to be pretty decent compared to his father.

    4. Actually after reading what it is about there is not much into the story.

      Just someone they were close with approached them and asked weather they might be interested. That’s about where it ended.

      Actually who was not close with Libya a year ago?

    5. Gadaffi’s been in charge for 41 years, for most of which he was supported either tacitly or sometimes overtly by the British Government. There’s hardly a British company involved in import or export to and from, or development of North Africa that doesn’t have some history of dealing with his regime. And indeed if we’re getting onto dodgy human rights records, how many British companies have links with China? Etc. etc. It’s a pointless, meaningless argument, fuelled by ludicrous, hypocritical media claptrap.

      1. It’s a pointless, meaningless argument, fuelled by ludicrous, hypocritical media claptrap

        Is that directed at me? If so, what argument? I wasn’t trying to prove anything by saying that

  3. If their is one thing that I miss these days is that races back then didn’t finish until the chequered flag

    1. The Last Pope
      29th April 2011, 4:07

      I bet Massa and Vettel would have wished the last race finished a few laps early :P

  4. DAMN IT TEAMS! You promised me 800HP Turbos I will be VERY annoyed if I don’t get my turbo wail, my boost switch, my extra suped up electrics, even my turbo lag. An I WANT 800HP!

    That Rubens thing was excellent, makes me remember why I like him so much, all that enthusiasm. Still I think we might have got the best first, who do you want in your team? Senna, who do you want for dinner? Senna, What should they add to all motorhomes? Senna and Prost. Literally can’t wait till we get Hamilton ;)

    There’s a few interesting characters left on the grid though, Schumi’s could be quite interesting, Webbers a fun un’ an I reckon Button might be a laugh.

    1. I agree. I want those nice and handsome turbo engines with a whopping 150-200HP power boost ASAP.

      Sure let Ferrari do their V6 with direct injection if they want, the more differences in characteristics, the merrier. It will bring back Ferrari being powerfull gas guzzlers, but hey its their choice.

    2. Yea, i was looking forward to Turbos too… :(

      Whats the actual deal with Bernie and the teams, is it just the proposed Straigh 4’s? or loosing the V8s? I think they should meet in the middle, a V6 Turbo engine. Ferrari can just make a new Dino road car to use it.

  5. MuzzleFlash
    29th April 2011, 3:00

    I’m not against an engine switch per say, just the fact that it has to be a 1.6 Turbo, surely that’s touring car territory? I always felt road relevant technology would be better suited to the tin-tops anyway.

    Didn’t anyone mention 6 cylinders? 2litre V or Straight-6’s might be nice.

    1. I don’t think it is too bad. The turbo cars of the 80s were all small capacity. They were a blatent rule bend of the 1.5 litre supercharged engine rule. The V6 on Senna and Prost’s MP4 4 was a 1.5 litre motor. I think Bernie is getting upset over nothing. Of course the NA engine sound is fantastic, nothing in my opinion has ever truly matched the sound of V12 F1 cars:
      I think that quality racing will be remembered more than the engine sound. The Turbo Era was one of the greatest eras in F1 due to the characters and the quality of the racing.

      Personally I feel the whole moving technology to road cars argument is more to justify the level of F1 spending to board members of car manufacturers.

    2. Douglas62500
      29th April 2011, 8:15

      For heaven’s sake why do they start arguing about this all over again after reaching an agreement surely it’s because someone’s trying to maintain an unfair advantage with their superior engine within the engine freeze. For heaven’s sake yes we know we miss old school V8 power but this is going to change anyway, it’s just the matter of time, so why not just focus hard on changing it so there’s more time for improvements ?? We can’t stay with internal combustion engines for that long.

    3. Straight 6s would be damn cool. Theres something I’ve always loved about a straight 6 :) (Maybe its just cause I’m a tvr fan)

    4. Douglas62500
      29th April 2011, 19:36

      I can see where you’re going, but inevitably that’s just downsizing engines, not really bringing about changes to make the formulas more efficient. In fact, probably downsizing to 2L NAs could actually be less efficient in transferring fuel into speed than the current units. I guess Ferrari opposed to that due to the political reasons they always liked, which in this case is to maintain the unfair advantage over others on their engine as their 1.8 V6 proposal is basically cutting 2 cylinders off their current 056 V8.

  6. That race of Mika is the last memory I have on F1.As far I remember I think he had a ride back on the sidepod of Coulthard.

    I like Turbo but not with 4 cylinders, at least they should have 6.

    Kubica is a WC driver,is a question when rather then if he will become a WC.

    I just hope for once in my life I could see a GP where Schumi is driving.

    1. unnnococooc
      29th April 2011, 4:09

      How do you know Kubica is a WDC driver?
      He is equal/slightly better than Hidfeld. And he isn’t what you would call a WDC driver.

      Hamilton and Alonso are WDC drivers.
      Vettel and Webber are great drivers in a WDC car.

      Kubica I think falls into the later. I haven’t seen anything that says that he is that brilliant. The renault was good at some tracks and he did well there but he was bad when the car was bad and that was it. The difference between a WDC driver and a great driver in a WDC car is that the WC driver will outperform the cars expectations not just do well where the car would do well.

      1. What about Schumacher?

        1. “was” and not “is” it seems. I hope he wins a race or gets on the podium this year though having said that.

      2. You should have seen Kubica’s qualifying lap in last year Monaco GP & also his race drive in Belgium both were spectacular. Some of his drive was awesome.

        1. You mean the one where he made up a place because Webbe fluffed the start, was then passed by Button and Vettel, made up two places when they crashed and made a rookie error coming into the pits and lost 2nd place?

          Kubica is turning out to be the new Raikkonen with a fanbase making out good fortune to be shows of skill and a refusal to accept he’s not one of the greats. At least Kimi proved himself as a champion.

        2. Kimi was soundly trumped by Massa…..

          also, Kubica… The Monaco lap… Just incredible.

      3. Kubica impressed me the most in Monaco and Suzuka 2010

        Outqualifying a Red Bull and coming just behind them in Monaco is a mighty feat in my opinion.

        1. @ Icthyes
          I doubt Kubica to be the next Kimi, unlike Kimi he likes to work with his team. Just give him a machine he will prove himself.Every drivers be that be great or bad made errors so there is nothing to do about that.

          1. We will have to wait until we call Kubica a great driver. Until he wins races regularly, I cannot rate him alongside Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, or even Button.

            Just remember Fisichella looked like a great driver who pulled out performances in poor cars, but when given good machinery, he won 2 races to Alonso’s 14.

  7. We Want Turbos
    29th April 2011, 6:53

    Drivers bowing out in style – Jonny Herbert… Backwards into a wall in a Jaguar, if my memory serves me correct

  8. Thats amazing – that what is essentially a road car finish just outside the top ten and only five laps down of a grand prix won by Jim Clark of all people (with custom built race cars) is amazing, reliability notwithstanding.

    1. Pretty amazing, isn’t it!

  9. Damn, I remember watching this race when I was a kid, and I remember my disappointing… I thought it was so unfair that the engine failed on the very last lap…

  10. I remember analysing some of the GP data from this year so far and the STR6 does seem very capable on its tyres.

    I didn’t expect Schumacher to stay beyond his three years but reading him say so is a little sad. I hope for better results than last year.

  11. why 800bhp? more would be better. Who cares the size of the engine as long as they deleiver more power than now. But it’s not going to happen. sadly.

    1. It’s not going to happen because of reasons of safety.

      F1 cars are generally thought to be quick enough, and taking a couple more seconds off lap times isn’t going to add to anything other than costs. 1500 bhp back in the eighties didn’t actually make the cars that much quicker then either!

      If you watch the Superleague series, you would know that they use a 4.2 litre 12,000 rpm rev limited 750 BHP V12 engine. It’s sounds fantastic and has even won awards for its design. But is it something that F1 should be copying?

      Do sound good though, just like those mid 90’s Ferrari’s. *sob*

  12. V6 Turbos!

    1. Back to the future!

      You can tune an exhaust to make a good enough noise from a 4 cylinder engine. No one complains about the noise not being good enough in MotoGP for example.

      Actually, the noise quality from a three cylinder engine would be superior to that of a four, and comparable to that of a six or a twelve cylinder engine. Check out any triumph triple motorcycle with a race can exhaust pipe fitted!

      A triple is the way to go for that distinctive exhaust note, but I don’t think anyone will buy it.

      1. I was sceptical but when he revved it, damn you were right, that bike sounds awesome!

  13. Am I the only one worrying about F1 turning into a ” 1design ” circus and more to the point how can you have genuine overtaking if all the cars have identical characteristics and all the drivers are the worlds best? Is it great entertainment watching a talented driver finally force a pay-to-drive driver into an error? and remember normally the talented drivers will all start in the order of their talent and we will have to wait for an unforced error or a reliability issue, highly unlikely with the rules outlawing highly stressed mechanicals. I remember “Formula V” it was quite entertaining, inexpensive racing in which the best prepared car with the best driver usually won but the only people passionate about it were the participants and nobody bought a VW beetle on Monday because of it. Is this where we want F1 to go ?

  14. I have a pretty simple solution to the engine regulations dilemma:

    Restrict the engines to 1.6L Turbocharged engines as planned, but dont restrict it to 4 cylinders, and dont restric the layout/orientation. Im certainly not an engine builder, but I dont think there would be much of a performance advantage between running a 1.6L V12 vs a 1.6L I4, or anything in between for that matter.

    This way, Ferrari could run a tiny Turbo V12 that would maintain a link to their road cars (and sound freaking spectacular, Im sure), McLaren could run a Turbo V8 like the MP4-12C road car has, and Renault could run a turbo I4 just like they sell in their road cars. This would even allow these companies to superficially label their F1 engines in the same manner that they do with their road car engine ranges, which would surely be appealing from a marketing perspective. Best of all, it would serve to entice potential manufacturers to the sport. Porsche might even be interested if they could build a turbo flat-six for it!

    Now I know that there could be minor disadvantages to different configurations (obviously a V12 has more moving parts and therefore greater risk of failure than an I4 with all other things being equal, but maybe it would have much more consistent exhaust pressure for EBD applications), but it would allow for engine manufacturers to market more of their own unique identity in F1, and actually allow the engines to be more of a competitive performance variable again. Who’s with me?

    1. Just for space saving reasons alone, a straight four would always be preferable to any other configuration, especially if restricted by a rev limit and a fuel limit…except maybe a straight three, which would actually sound better and also be smaller and more efficient than a four.

      I don’t understand why Ferrari take this stance, when its parent company (Fiat) are mass producing twin cylinder turbo road car engines?!

  15. Hasn’t renault the manufacturer completely sold off the formula one team? If so why would eric boullier be allowed to say.

    “Renault as a car manufacturer is willing to go for the new regulations,”?

  16. Hallard, I agree entirely with your suggestion of allowing varying configuration but not with turbocharging as almost any backyard hotrodder can achieve a designated horsepower at a limited RPM just by increasing the boost and why go back to a formula used 25 years ago and restrict the horsepower to less than that achieved 25 years ago, is that technological progress? If it has to be turbo it should be 1000cc or less and unrestricted development.

    1. If you can make an engine that used to produce 1500 bhp in qualifying mode last an entire season and still produce 1500bhp all the way through that season, then that’s technolgical progress! Not going to happen though, but it might be possible with less bhp.

      To get naturally aspirated engines to make more power means more revs and that isn’t achieving anything worthwhile.

      Little point in having a V12 turbo that’s fuel limited because the IL4 will be just as powerful, take up less space and use less fuel.

      Unrestricted development on engines is very costly and that’s something that F1 needs to avoid if it wants enough teams around to compete.

      1. VXR all this talk of cost is bunkum, in the 60’s F1 constantly developed new engines, chassis and ideas without sponsorship and without the huge TV payout that they get now (although they should be getting a bigger share, but that’s another subject) some years ago Mclaren were fined $100 million and survived. Engine development is a legitimate and beneficial expense for motor manufacturers, when you stop development there is nothing to be gained for all those millions spent so manufacturers like BMW, Honda and Toyota walk away.

        1. VXR all this talk of cost is bunkum

          If that’s true, then FOTA is bunkum.

          1. Best quote from that article:

            Martin Whitmarsh

            “It is okay for some of us at this end to say that it doesn’t feel like a real and immediate priority – but if we don’t do it then we won’t have people to race against. It is as simple as that.”

            And I don’t think that he means only the likes of HRT and Virgin.

  17. Vxr, McLaren of course are not a major motor manufacturer so engine parity suits them, but have they (FOTA, FIA ) really tried to reduce costs with the constant rule changes, kers etc.? Would not all that money have been better spent developing engines that give more power from each gram of fuel burnt and the rule left alone for some years ? Re packaging, an I4 may beat a V12 but an H4 would be better still and quite likely an H6 also , especially if trying to entice VW-Porsche back to F1.

  18. Would not all that money have been better spent developing engines that give more power from each gram of fuel burnt and the rule left alone for some years ?

    That is pretty much what is happening already with the V8 engines. You can still work on the V8s reliabilty and fuel efficiency areas. They are probably the most fuel efficient and reliable internal combustion engines on the planet for their capacity and power output. The less fuel you need to carry the faster you can go. Renault are currently superior to others in this department.

    Unfortunately you can only do so much with a naturally aspirated internal combustion engine and it is obvious to all engine manufacturers that the use of KERS, turbos and other devices is the only way to go to get better fuel economy.

    Re:Packaging. In what way would an H4 or an H6 be better? Both in terms of F1 use and road car use? I would say the opposite to you. Less is more when it comes to efficiency.

    In fact an I3 would probably be superior in every way (great noise too) to even an I4 or any of the configurations that you suggest in order to get around 650bhp of drivable power from a 1.6 litre turbo compound engine.

    The only thing against running an I3 maybe that the maximum cylinder bore allowed for the new engines isn’t wide enough and the stroke of the piston would have to be too long.

    1. 1.Ithink you have answered this yourself, an H4 is only 2 cylinder bores long against an I4 being 4 identical diameter bores long, an H6 engine could be 3 smaller cylinder bores long ( all plus water jackets etc. of course) and the horizontal opposing piston layout is better balanced and has a lower center of gravity.

      2. How can the teams develop more power or fuel efficiency with a sealed ecu.supplied by McLaren other than change the bore/stroke ratio or redesign the aspiration and combustion chambers currently frozen.

      3. I have not read the regs. will the maximum bore size you mention (ie.the standard bore ) mean a longer stroke to bore ratio ?
      This off course will mean identical bore and stroke in all engines and soon a “1 design” engine with identical power curves making overtaking without gimmicks even harder. No doubt the engineers will spend countless hours designing their badge for this engine so their adoring fans can point out the inferiority of the opposing teams badge. I am so excited I can’t wait.

      1. The only way you will entice engine manufacturers into F1 is to make sure that first of all you have regulations that don’t ensure that one engine manufacturer runs away with the championship in its first year and the other engine manufacturers decide to cut their losses and go and do something far more beneficial and far less expensive instead.

        Engine regulations that are too open are a recipe for disaster and FOTA (except maybe Ferrari) as well as anyone else who knows how F1 really works knows this only too well.

        You may well have the best engine, but you may also find that you are supplying all of what is left of the grid with it!

        1. F1 has always had its ups and downs and the teams have more funding now than ever.Cosworth was a small company that produced the best engine of the early 3l,formula, Ilmor was a small company that produced the best V10 for Mercedes. Engine design and development probably costs less than aerodynamics and I think the teams are only crying poor because they all want to be as rich as Bernie.

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