Random stat about Sauber

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    Just a random stat about Sauber, just before the end of the season they celebrated their 20th birthday. With 20 years, Sauber is tied with Ligier and Minardi as third longest existing time never winning a WDC or WCC. First is Arrows with 24 years, second is March with 22 years. Sixth is Jordan with 14 years.

    Of course, things get more complicated if you take into account:
    -March only raced in 14 of the seasons from 1970 to 1992;
    -some could consider Force India still being the same team as Jordan, and Toro Rosso still being the same team as Minardi.

    Maybe it has been mentioned before on this forum, but in the same vein:
    Longest existing team to never win a GP:
    -Arrows (24 years)
    -Minardi (20 years)
    -Jordan (14 years)
    -Osella (10 years)
    -Ensign (9 years)

    Maybe I’ve missed something, so feel free to correct or comment!


    Lucas Wilson

    Not true! They won a race in 2008 as BMW Dauber.


    Lucas Wilson




    The second part of my post, concerning race wins, doesn’t mention Sauber as one of the teams without wins, but maybe I should have made that clearer…


    Bradley Downton


    Longest existing team to never win a GP:
    -Jordan (14 years)

    Jordan won the:
    1998 Belgian GP
    1999 French GP
    1999 Italian GP
    and the 2003 Brazilian GP



    …and 3 other races!


    Iestyn Davies

    Interesting to note that with the following:

    Arrows should have won the 1997 Hungarian GP, with a 50p seal breaking on the penultimate lap.
    Sauber won a race with BMW Sauber, and maybe should have won in Malaysia 2012.
    Minardi won a race with Toro Rosso and Sebastian Vettel, in a customer Red Bull-Ferrari combo.
    March won races in the 1970s, before avoiding the GE/Turbo era and returning for the late 80’s/early 90s N/A era with Adrian Newey.

    Would this make Osella and Ensign the longest constructor bases/franchises to never win a race? The true winner of the teams race would always be Minardi of course, although they did have competitive times with Ferrari engines in the odd year they could get them (early-90s). We could still have the longest wait to win with Minardi/Toro Rosso, Arrows to Hungary 1997 and Sauber to Canada 2008.

    Now I re-read it and see it says WDC/WCC and not race! I suppose this list is then accurate. Which one came closest? March or Jordan? Arrows interestingly enough was formed out of Shadow, which was competitive in the mid-1970s, so that team almost has a longer history than even as Arrows, such a shame when they went bust in 2002.. They were almost reborn as Super Aguri (the old Arrows cars) and now Caterham is in their old factory…

    March – 3rd in 1970, 11 points from WCC, with drivers Stewart, Amon, Andretti/Peterson, Cevert, Siffert..
    Jordan – 3rd in 1999, 2 wins. Hill only scored 7 points in his final year, while Frentzen challenged for WDC..
    Sauber – 4th in 2001, 3rd in 2007/8 with BMW. 3 fastest laps in the last two years, 10 podiums non-BMW.
    Arrows – 5th in 1988, continuing with turbo engines. 5x 2nd place, 4x 3rd place, 1x pole position in 25 years.
    Minardi – 7th in 1991 with Ferrari engines, 8th in 1993 with Ford. 3x 4th place finishes the best for the team. Have led a lap and also qualified on the front row. Badoer retired from 4th in the 1999 European GP.
    Ensign – 10th in 1977, best finish of 4th with Surer in the 1981 Brazilian GP, with a surprise fastest lap. Competitive with Regazzoni but brake failure injured him in 1980. Team ran for 10 seasons, merging into Theodore at the end of the GE era. Founder Mo Nunn was successful in late 90’s CART. Theodore/Ensign was a bit like RB/Toro Rosso, and thus 1983 could be counted to make 11 seasons. Senna won 1983 Macau GP with Theodore.
    Osella – best finishes of 12th in 1982, 1984; 4th in 1982 San Marino GP, 5th in 1984 Dallas GP. Fortuitous on both occasions (FOCA boycott, Mansell pushing his car to the line and falling short), only points in 11 seasons.

    It’s fair to say March, Arrows, Jordan have all been successful (Arrows have 5 second places), making Minardi the true backmarker team (and sometimes midfield in the early 90s) that can rarely be competitive (but still no podium, unless with Toro Rosso), followed by Ensign and Osella for durability.



    Oh no @Bradley Downton, how could I have missed the 4 race wins of Jordan, quite embarassing! I didn’t find anything on the other 3 victories Tomsk mentions though…


    Bradley Downton

    @ludwigmic – Haha, I have made @tomsk look a little silly there :P I originally just put the 2003 Brazilian GP because I couldn’t remember the other wins then added them in after tomsk mentioned them :P



    Some interesting stats there!

    What does make the “official” change of an old team to a new team (a re-badge) or a REAL new team??
    Red Bull are a “new team” but come for the Jags, Benneton (best colours in F1 in the 80’s) become Renualt, we had Lotus, who was really Renualt, or vice versa :) then back again!!

    Hell, even Ferrari have been rebadged so many times they have come back to being Ferrari LOL (Kidding Tifosi!!)

    So when do the official FIA records get reset for an F1 team?? Does a rebagde with new sponsor yet same staff and drivers count? There do not seem really to be too many new teams just a fresh start, change a few things and try again!


    Lucas Wilson


    I think its personal opinion. Renault to Lotus in 2012 probably wasn’t a ‘new’ team, neither was Renaults buyout of Bennetton. However when BAR bought Tyrrells race licence and joined in 1999 it was considered by many to be a new team.

    But like I said personal opinion. Some may think that Virgins change to Marrusia constites that as ‘new’ team or those who think that it has to be fully new like when Toyota joined in 2002 or Lotus, Virgin and HRT in 2010.



    @lucas Wilson

    I was having a little fun with that post but when on a podium announces “this is Red Bull Racings xxx podium in F1” they have drawn a line in the sand at some stage- so where?

    I think Virgin to Marrusia to me is simply a re-badge, but technically I dont know?


    Lucas Wilson


    There is actually a great table in the 200th issue of F1 Racing showing their view of ‘new’ F1 teams: (this is a complete quote, nothing added by me)

    “35 teams have taken part in F1 from 1996 to 2012, from Tyrrell though to Mercedes, Benetton to Lotus and Stewart to Red Bull”

    “Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Ligier-Prost, Toyota, HRT, Virgin-Marussia, Benetton-Renault-Lotus, Lola, Forti, Jordan-Midland-Spyker-Force India, Sauber-BMW-Sauber, Minardi-Toro Rosso, Tyrrell-BAR-Honda-Brawn-Mercedes, Footwork-Arrows, Super Aguri, Stewart-Jaguar-Red Bull, Lotus Racing-Caterham”



    I’d argue that they have not raced for 20 years. During the time they were BMW Sauber I am sure that much of the personnel remained the same, as did the headquarters, and they even retained ‘Sauber’ in their name. However, the change in name, team principal, and sudden identity as a manufacturer team is probably enough to consider it as a separate outfit when considering stats.


    Rob Allen

    When did Jordan cease as that gp team name… 2005?

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