Safety car speeding
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- 15th June 2011, 17:18 at 5:18 pm #129550FluxParticipant
I can’t see this mentioned anywhere… can anyone explain how both McLarens were under investigation for speeding under the safety car?
During the first safety car (the start), they would have had to overtake people in order to have been speeding. During the second safety car, only Button could have possibly been speeding, as Hamilton was on three wheels and being overtaken – but it still said Hamilton was under investigation for speeding (along with 2389 other incidents).
The FIA’s site also has no document to go with the penalty, like it does with every other penalty:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/on_event.aspx
Odd!
15th June 2011, 19:58 at 7:58 pm #171324AndrewTannerParticipantThere’s probably nothing mentioned on the FIA site about Button as he served a drive-through penalty thus no need for it to go to a stewards inquiry.
I guess speeding behind the safety car is to do with not travelling at a reasonably acceptable pace, perhaps stretching and bunching the field?
15th June 2011, 20:02 at 8:02 pm #171325JT19ParticipantDid McLaren forget to ‘switch it on’ or forgot all about the rule?
16th June 2011, 7:02 at 7:02 am #171326DavidSParticipantFIA Regulations
40.7 All competing cars must then reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first safety car line for the first time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.
Basically, drivers have a lap time time they must be slower than so they don’t race at full speed around the rest of the track to catch up to the safety car. It makes complete sense because when the safety car is deployed there is usually unsafe conditions on the track often requiring marshals to be on the track. If they let the cars race at full speed around to meet the safety car, there is essentially a delay of an entire lap where it is unsafe for marshals to be on the circuit.
A delay like that is not good for situations where drivers may need urgent medical help, or there is a high level of danger present on the track for cars arriving at racing speed.
Button broke that rule, clear as day. That’s why the penalty came so quickly.
16th June 2011, 7:18 at 7:18 am #171327ed24f1ParticipantI think the marshall falling over on the track shows very clearly why we need this rule. It was good to see a clear and decisive penalty in this case unlike the shambles that was Valencia 2010.
I must admit I hadn’t really fully understood the 2011 SC rules until I saw it in action this weekend, and I must say I like it, as it stops drivers racing to join the back of the snake.
I would still prefer that the pitlane was closed in SC periods though.
16th June 2011, 8:19 at 8:19 am #171328AnonymousInactiveFlux – Well spotted. This is very odd. The penalty was during the first SC period. As you say, Hamilton had already crashed during the 2nd and Jenson only did half a lap under the 2nd SC before pitting for inters. Also the stewards investigation was anounced during the 2nd period, so it was definitely during the first period. But how come? They started under the SC and the Mclarens had Rosberg sandwiched between them. I’ve just re-watched the start on iplayer and there are no obvious gaps appear in the train. If they were both speeding at some point, then presumably they both must also have slowed down (to create a gap for them to speed into), so how come Rosberg wasn’t speeding also?
I understand that this is all done by telemetry (MB said in commentary that there can be no arguments because “it’s a metter of fact”) so it would be interesting to see how this happened
16th June 2011, 11:02 at 11:02 am #171329IcthyesParticipantThey really need to to make sure the SC can pick up the leader as soon as possible instead of giving them free pit stops all the time. The whole point of the SC is to bunch everyone up so marshals have the maximum possible amount of clear track time, yet increasingly the process seems to take 3 or more laps to get right.
16th June 2011, 11:10 at 11:10 am #171330Red AndyParticipantThe obvious solution is to revert to the safety car rules of 2007/8 – end the “lap delta” nonsense (which as we’ve seen at Suzuka 2009 and Valencia 2010 isn’t enforced half the time anyway) and just close the pit lane as soon as the safety car is deployed. That ends the incentive for drivers to rush back to the pits but means that they can bunch up relatively quickly.
There’s now no danger of anyone running out of fuel, of course (though I always thought this was a lame excuse, since teams should have been able to take responsibility for their own strategy and factor in the possibility of safety cars), so there’s no reason why we shouldn’t revert to those rules. Maybe even look at reintroducing the “lapped cars may now overtake” feature as well, which used to make things more interesting.
16th June 2011, 13:12 at 1:12 pm #171331xtopheMemberI’m unsure when it happened, but I’m quite certain I saw Button do 2 or 3 green sectors on an in-lap of the SC.
16th June 2011, 14:26 at 2:26 pm #171332Joey-PoeyParticipantWhat I want to know is why they don’t simply use something akin to the pit lane rev limiter? Set a speed limit rather than a delta time and then as soon as the yellows come on, everyone flicks on their rev limiters and drives until they reach the back of the SC line.
17th June 2011, 5:36 at 5:36 am #171333Prisoner MonkeysParticipantcan anyone explain how both McLarens were under investigation for speeding under the safety car?
When the safety car is sent out, all cars are held to a “delta time”, the minimum acceptable lap time for a driver to complete a lap of the course. A driver must not set a lap time faster than this because he will have been deemed to have been speeding under full-course yellows, which are only ever deployed in the event of a serious incident. The rules are a little bit fuzzy here because Jenson Button was caught out at Valencia last year when Mark Webber crashed. Webber did his backflip and the safety cr was sent out. McLaren reacted instantly and got Button into the pits straight away. But because the accident had happened behind Button, who had completed a racing lap at speed, his lap time was naturally faster than the delta time through no fault of his own. This became a serious problem and the FIA promised to change it because Button was penalised for nothing.
The delta time concept has since been changed. I believe the way it works now is a time has been set from each sector. Although full-course yellows require drivers to lap slowly, they usually only block one sector of the circuit. The rest of the track is safe to drive. So to prevent drivers from being caught out, the delta time is calculated for each sector on the first lap a safety car is deployed. That way, if there is an accident in sector one and the safety car is deployed, drivers in sector two and three won’t be penalised simply because the accident was behind them. Once the driver gets to the start/finish line, the full-lap delta time is put in place and he must slow down.
My guess is that Button was caught out when the safety car was deployed in Montreal, and he drove quickly through the clear sectors to catch up to the rear of the safety car train.
17th June 2011, 7:36 at 7:36 am #171334AnonymousInactivePM – Button’s penalty in Canada (and Hamilton would have had one too if he hadn’t crashed out) was for the first SC period where they srarted the race and for the first 4 laps. They anounced that cars 3 and 4 (Ham and Butt) were under investigation for SC speeding just after the start of the 2nd SC period. All the cars started (and remained) in the train. Both Mclarens were cited for speeding but Rosberg (who was sandwiched between them) wasn’t. Seems odd how they both did a lap faster than the delta time but none of the cars around them did.
19th June 2011, 2:15 at 2:15 am #171335Prisoner MonkeysParticipantI’d say that would have something to do with the relative road positions, then. If Button and Hamilton fell back from the cars in front of them on one lap, then they most likely tried to close that gap up on the next, and ended up breaking the delta time.
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