2009 F1 testing: March 16th

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Can McLaren get their MP4-24 sorted?
Can McLaren get their MP4-24 sorted?

Today four F1 teams are scheduled to test in Jerez.

Williams, Renault and Brawn GP were all running at the track yesterday, and McLaren will resume work on their troublesome MP4-24.

Today’s testing line-up

Rubens Barrichello (AM)
Jenson Button (PM)
Fernando Alonso
Nico Rosberg
Lewis Hamilton

Live timing

Try the following sites for live lap times (various languages):

Renault usually post details of their test on their blog.

If you find any more good sites for following testing lap times, please post details below. Further updates will be posted in the comments and any images or video from today’s testing will be added here.

2009 F1 testing

88 comments on “2009 F1 testing: March 16th”

  1. i have no doubt whatsoever, as much as I’m not a mclaren fan that they will fix their issues very very soon.

    I’d not be suprised at all, if they we’re very fast with their new parts.

    Not bothering with yesterdays test would be an indication that they have some faith (or hope) that the new parts will improve things and it’s not worth wasting laps on parts that aren’t working.

    time will tell.

  2. I thought that Rosberg was testing the Williams today and tomorrow, with Nakajima running the last two days. Doesn’t make sense for my mind to have the inexperienced Hulkenberg testing a full two out of five days….

  3. mp4-24 (RIP)
    16th March 2009, 7:36

    what is wrong with mclaren & martin whitmarsh. skipping a day’s practice when they pretty well know that they have got a car that is suffering from arthritis. even my grandmother could run faster than that car. how could they have designed such a pig of a car whose rear wing is as flawed as a pig’s snout. Then martin whitmarsh firing warnings at rivals, defending his design team’s approach, leaving everything to the last moment. surely sign of things to come at mclaren under the leadership of whitmarsh. They have really embarrassed themselves.just imagine a force india beating them in their own game in its first season of technical collaboration with them. mclaren may boast of a great record ….fine. but that doesn’t mean that you can rest back on your laurels. complacency is what has cost mclaren a shot at the title this year & many years to come. i agree with some of the gentlemen in these posts, that mclaren at this very moment do not have competent design engineers . we must always remember that the cars that brought race wins & championships to mclaren were an evolution of the cars designed by sir adrian newey. namely mp418 to mp423. clearly the current rules have not been interpreted properly by the dumb mclaren engineers. considering the fact that the have got their own engineers in the OWG( overtaking working group) & their ceo martin whitmarsh as the head Sporting Regulation in FOTA, mclaren have failed miserably. i along with many mclaren fans feel very cheated, humiliated & let down after being promised soo much during winter. mclaren is going the lotus way. i am sure of it.

    1. Why waste a day of tests without the new parts? This way they get to stay a day later than everyone else and run on a clear track with no red flags from other drivers, makes perfect sense.

      You also have a short memory – McLaren won races (and WCC and WDC’s) well before Newey worked for them, way back when they had Honda lumps in the back of them for instance!

    2. i just say wait til melbourne

    3. Pete Firestarter
      16th March 2009, 9:48

      I totally agree with mp4-24(RIP)! I spotted this issue as soon as i saw Kovi struggling at the Barcelona test. The mclaren design engineers have been exposed! Sometimes you need something like this to get rid of some dead wood. Renault have missed the point a bit but they are doing all they can to sort that Car out and will be in front of MacLaren in Melbourne. Mclaren need to develop that car for Lewis only for them to have any meaningful season. No point wasting time with PDR and Kovi. Bennetton, Ferrari did it b4 for Michael Schummi, and Renault are doing it now for Fernando. I would have lewis for 75% of the test just to horn the Car to his driving.

    4. Paul Sainsbury
      16th March 2009, 10:55

      Steady, tiger!

    5. they arent skipping a day, they have 4 days regardless, they are just waiting for a part, the will be there 1 day after everyone else has gone.

    6. The amount of doom and gloom that has been generated from McLaren’s poor testing times is quite staggering. The team has admitted there’s a problem and is working to fix it. It won’t be the first team to encounter a major problem in pre-season tests and it won’t be the last.

      Whenever there’s a major regulation change, there’s always the possibility that one team will drop the ball. McLaren has (including today) four days of testing left to improve its car ahead of Melbourne. It also has some of the finest engineers in F1 and probably the best simulation technology at its disposal. If any team can sort out a problem of this sort, it has to be McLaren. It would be foolish to write them off for 2009, let alone beyond that.

      In the recent past, McLaren has had problems. The team made a very slow start to 2005 (caused by problems heating the tyres for qualifying) but got on top of the issue and challenged for the title. Its 2006 car was fairly dire but the team came back fighting with a very successful 2007 machine which could (and arguably should) have won both titles in the same year.

      We won’t know how bad things really are for McLaren until we get some way into the year. Melbourne will give some pointers but the track tends to throw up some odd results.

  4. McLaren are actually staying a day later than everyone else. So they will get a full 4 days testing!!

  5. Mclaren are behind , no doubt , let’s see how much progress they can make this week , while Brawn GP looks to have silenced the critics they were putting on a show with a light car , the pace is genuine. WOW.

  6. looks like brawn GP are showing true pace. if they start to fight for the WCC or the WDC who would get the No1 slot… looking at the testing rubens seems to be the faster driver!

    1. Lets wait until Oz to declare either driver faster. Rubens was faster on day 2 in barca than Jenson on day 1, but then Jenson was faster still on day 3 and Rubens faster still on day 4. all that shows is that the track was still getting rubbered in and that the team were fine tuning their set ups.

      It wouldn’t suprise me at all if Jenson beats Rubens’ times once he’s in the car in Jerez as the track will be rubbering in…

      Until both drivers are out on track at the same time and in the same conditions, we won’t know who is faster…

      as an iside, does anyone else find it a little ironic that McLaren used to be powered by Honda engines and now ex-Honda are powered by Merc engines…!!

  7. Barrichello has do a 01:18.398…
    And I thought that Vettels 1:19.055 was pretty fast.
    Can anyone catch BGP if they really have almost a sec on the other teams when we get to melbourne? I mean with the in season testban car won’t be developed so fast.

  8. Pete Firestarter
    16th March 2009, 9:51

    Rubens for WDC and Melbourne win. Good olds at the bookies!!

  9. I’m dont think McLaren will be able to make up 1.6sec in four days. not even sure they can do 0.8 sec. But I will still support them as I have been since 1995. Strange how many supporters the new Brawn team has compared to last years honda team… Wonder if they would have had all this support if there pre-season times where not at the top?

    1. People like the ‘independent’ tag, myself included. Harks back to the old days of privateers trying it on, often successfully. No billionaire team owner, just a bunch of racing enthusiasts (with free Mercedes engines?)

    2. I doubt if Brawn receive free engines from Mercedes. Norbert Haug was adament that year-long payments were in place before the deal was signed.

  10. The 1.19.629 from Lewis, still 1.2 off the pace of Barrichello but a 1st improvement?

  11. I agree on Brawn GP, they are now British and independent rather than Japanese manufacturers. Both Button and Rubens has been in deep dips of resp career after some success and any turnaround would be the kind of rags-to-riches stuff that Hollywood is made of. What is there not to like? It is yet a bit premature to claim the season to be “The Curious Case of Jenson Button” but I do know who to root for if the Mcs aren’t up for it.

  12. i say lets all wait itll melbourne ,mclaren about to shame thier critics

  13. yeah mclarens new parts are looking much faster for them, only 1.2 off the pace, and being new parts there’s still room for movement, its not as if they are old parts they are trying to squeese life out of, getting more of a feel for them and learning how to setup the car better with those parts – and doing a better lighter lap could bring 1 second to the table – either way, they are very close to alonso’s 2nd place time and ahead of the rest of the runners – which is better than they have been doing.

    they’ll be competitive in melb.

    anyone seen these parts before?

    1. wow with that huge wind tunnel they have that look very areodinamic!

    2. I think those are Sensors not parts.Check out the deformable cantilevers at the bottom of the Alu frame. I think they are to build up an array of air speed data at that point?

  14. I think it’s used just for testing, it has something to do with picking up data for the telemetry. Probablly air flow on the back of the car

  15. just found that picture on f1.com, and it say’s that it’s a monitoring device

  16. @phil certainly i knew the fact that mclaren won championships well before newey. I also remember in those days it was gordon murray & not some crap engineer who designed it. phil u should also remember that the mp4-24 is certainly not an evolution of the mp4/4 or for that fact the useless bulky mp4-10(into which nigel mansell couldn’t fit his ass) designed by neil oatly & others. So there is no comparison between the 2 eras. Get ready for the funeral of the mp4-24 on 29 march in melbourne.

    1. lol, you’re an Alonso fan aren’t you?!

      Even if McLaren are only fighting in the mid-field pack (which is where they’ll be at worst), it’s hardly RIP for them is it?

    2. Pete Firestarter
      16th March 2009, 14:47

      I remember the publicity on that MP4/10! “Designed with the help of a super computer” and was herald to thrash all opposition. It failed badly and Nigel Mansell (bless) refused to drive it. Well he parked it and self retired himself out of a grand prix!. I think there is hope for the MP4/24, but condition are different this year! No testing and less wind tunnel time means lots of simulations, but thats where the problem comes in. If the calibrations are wrong on the simulator, then you get rubbish out.I hope the problems are related just to one section of the car – ie rear, then there is hope. Some us are angry with McLaren because from last year, F1 champion needs a decent car to defend title with, NOT a 2008-Honda!!

  17. Aquatic Mammal
    16th March 2009, 12:39

    PF1 shows the Hamster did a 1:19.6 this morning in 28 laps. No info as to fuel load but a much more encouraging time, I am sure you will agree.

    I think all the doom and gloom on here is misplaced. Macca haven’t lost their way. They’re not suddenly rubbish because Newey left or because Alonso isn’t there with his extra 0.6. F1 is a tough game and teams sometimes fall behind a little bit, especially when they have to fight like mad to win a WDC the season before. Macca are a pro outfit with massive manufacturing and design resources. They won’t let this little set back upset their programme.

    Expect them to be near, if not very much on, the pace in Melbourne.


    1. Pete Firestarter
      16th March 2009, 14:54

      If McLaren reduce 00:00’01”115 margin to half by Melbourne, then they will be fighting for both Championships. I understand they could test some more new parts at Melbourne?

    2. I’d heard that lighter drivers will have an advantage, but McLaren must be getting desperate to hire Richard Hammond…

  18. Looking alot better today! Go Lewis!

  19. For everyone’s information i am a die hard follower of mclaren since the days of senna & berger. I just can’t stand the fact that its struggling so badly. I’ve always had a feeling ,since the spygate episode that the team have always been hindered in its progress . Particularly the design dept & to make matters worst dennis has stepped down. Whitmarsh is unfortunately from what i heard , a honest man. So u have a honest man & a honest team, pitted against the most corrupt men(berniemax) & organisation FIA. So how can one expect them to make giant leap forwards ( v r talking abt a 2.5 to 3sec gap) in the coming few months? They may have the best simulators,wind tunnel,best design softwares,best test track,best telemetry softwares,best engine supplier,best chefs .but do they have some decent engineers? Unless paddy lowe & his design team r possessed by the spirit of colin chapman or someone ,there is nothing they can do. P.S. i’ve heard chapman is buried somewhere near woking!!

    1. pipe down please

    2. So are McLaren struggling because they’ve suddenly employed a batch of incompetent engineers or because Bernie and Max are somehow fixing things? I think you may just have to face up to the fact that McLaren has collectively cocked up somewhere – it happens, and I’m sure they’ll be working hard to fix it.

      I doubt very much that Colin Chapman would be much interested in 2009-era F1. Chapman came up with some amazing innovations in F1 but properly refining those ideas was not always his strong point – Lotus dominated in 1978 with ground effect then became also rans the following year as other teams made better use of the concept. Modern F1 is about continuous improvement and constant refinement, not great leaps forward. The current regulations are too restrictive for the likes of Colin Chapman to thrive.

      Indeed, for at least the last 10-15 years designing F1 cars has not been about the star designer who draws the whole car. But rather about a skilled technical director bringing together the work of a large team of designers and engineers into a coherent whole.

    3. “But rather about a skilled technical director bringing together the work of a large team of designers and engineers into a coherent whole.”

      Ross Brawn anyone..?? No wonder Brawn GP are going so well…

    4. Well said mp4-24(RIP). I am a McLaren fan and I also suspect that the knives are out for the team from the Ecclstone camp, who i think is quickly becoming more of a liability than an asset to the sport.
      On the plus side they have Lewis and a hungry Heikki behind the wheel, so not all that bad :)

  20. Melbourne podium,P1 BUTTON, P2 BARRICHELLO, P3 GLOCK.

  21. I too am a die hard McLaren fan and I just accept that they have some work to do! But I have confidentce they will manage this in the early part of the season. As long as something british does well I will be more than content, so if McLaren can’t do it, roll on Jenson!

    As it happens i don’t believe McLaren have to go back to the drawing board with the car, it just needs refining, and it seems that this is what they are doing, quite sucessfully based on their improvement this week. They’ll start the season, at the very least at the front of the midfield, but hopefully challenging for the podium.

  22. I think we will be suprised by Renault/Alonso pace. They are near this year and we know how good Alonso is in developing cars. Like Brawn GP though! hope they continue to be good when it matters.

  23. I’ve been watching F1 since the beginning of ’99 and this is the most unpredictable season I can remember, Can anyone who has been following for longer than me remember any more unpredictable.

  24. What still surprises is how much the argument that McLaren has a very good group of engineers is used to say that now way they would build a bad car!

    What about the MP4-18 that actually never raced, and its “debugged” version MP4-19 that managed only 1 win, and finihsed 5th in the Championship only after making an almost brand new car the MP4-19D? And what about the MP4-21 used in 2006? This car failed to win a single race…

    So McLaren is an excelent team, and no way would they get it wrong, but they actually did twice in a row (MP4-18 and MP4-19) and then did it again in 2005 with the MP4-21…

    But I’,ve been watching McLaren’s progress, and although I was very concerned for them a while back, I’m now felling they will manage to be closer to the front

    1. I’m not trying to sound nerdy but the MP4-21 was raced in 2006

    2. Kimi won at Spa in 2006, driving the 21….

    3. I would not agree about 2005 because the car was conatantly faster then Renault, but on the down side it was not reliable as renault

  25. Scott Joslin
    16th March 2009, 15:39

    Seems like Jenson has had an incident testing today – he brought out a Red Flag. Not sure if he had crashed the car or if it was mechanical : http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.f1today.nl%2Flive-update%2F2009%2F03%2F16%2Fcircuito-de-jerez%2F&sl=nl&tl=en&history_state0=

    1. I think mechanical: engine faliure or something. But maybe someone knows it better

  26. 1:18.343 ALO
    Faster than Ayrton Senna Circuit record :-)

    1. completely irrelevant – it was a different track then. it has since been resurfaced, and ironically had the Senna curve chicane.

    2. Anyway, it’s a wonderful new ;-)

  27. 1º 7 Fernando Alonso Renault 00:01’18”343 99
    .2º 19 Rubens Barrichello Brawn GP 00:01’18”398 00:00’00”055 62
    .3º 18 Jenson Button Brawn GP 00:01’18”892 00:00’00”549 12
    .4º 1 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 00:01’19”513 00:00’01”170 85
    .5º 9 Nico Rosberg Williams 00:01’19”783 00:00’01”440 123

  28. And i was supposed to be there but my parents weren’t bothered to take me :(

  29. Looks like Renault will be fast enaugh to compete with Brawn GP and Ferrari in melbourne :)

    1. I don’t want a car that hideous to be competitive.

  30. Captain Caveman
    16th March 2009, 16:55

    Do we know if he (Alonso) was running with the additional weight of Kers for this session?

    i ahve checked some foreign sites and they are unclear

  31. Bigbadderboom
    16th March 2009, 17:00

    Interesting to see how McLaren can improve now, I think they will be ok. I think they probably have the right development thread now, so its just a case of time. I am amazed at how quick Brawn are, I hope their pace is maintainable and the car is reliable. Well done Fernando! but no doubt he is worth a second a lap!!!

  32. StrFerrari4Ever
    16th March 2009, 17:02

    interesting is Jenson 12 laps and he was faster then Lewis who ran 85 laps

  33. Captain Caveman
    16th March 2009, 17:05

    I would have to agree (bigbadderboom) that Brawn have been a very big surprise, but what I find more intriguing is that they seem to have had 2 full weeks of good testing.

    WITHOUT any mechanical problems. Either they have been very fortunate or the car is genuinely looking to be reliable.

  34. Renault has been using KERS for some time now and semmingly with good relibality, so I’m suprised if they ran without KERS, but even so, if they took-out KERS, they have to put the ballasts, so the car should run with the same weight.
    It would be stupid for Renault to be down on the weight limit just to top a test session. For a team with wins as a goal (and maybe the champioship) sandbagging is the way to go, not show-off (which I think causes bad results).

    Nevertheless, running the car without KERS is a good idea, cause they need to evaluate if using KERS gives an advantage, or a disadvantage!
    Not using KERS allows them to have more ballast to play with, and change the weight distribution of the car, which can result is a faster car per lap, albeit not having the extra 80hp to use (which I think is handy for overtaking).

    This raises an interesting question: How will drivers use the extra 80hp during the races? Will they use it for overtaking purposes? OR in straits in order to have a better top-speed, hence, a better lap-time independently of overtaking a car or not?

  35. Are there any press releases today?

  36. Aquatic Mammal
    16th March 2009, 18:23

    Where did you find that information, StrFerrari4Ever?


  37. Fernando Alonso 1’18”343!!!!

    I believe he’s the only one who have been able to go faster than Brown GP. He did only two laps but is a great time in any case.

    The rest:

    Barrichelo 1’18”398
    Button 1’18”892
    Hamilton 1’19”513
    Rosberg 1’19”783

    1. Oopss!!

      I’m afraid many others had commented this (I read the comments just after publish mine…)

  38. no doubt ferrari and bmw have a great challenger in renault.

    toyota, brawn have also a shot.

    williams, mclaren and red bull stay behind… by some tenths!

  39. brawn as added the must need chilis.

  40. To Tims point near the top

    Actually BMW have the best simulation technology in f1
    Fact :)


    Oh and yes back to the point i really do hope that Mclaren struggle in melbourne, so we can really see what Hamilton is made off (Probably nothing)and we will see him fail miserably. But we will see and i cannot wait

    1. I love jealousy! Brings out the best in people. Wherever Mclaren are in Melbourne, Lewis will outperform the car. You don’t get straight into a top team by being rubbish, and you don’t win the WDC by not beating everybody else. People like you realy should think about things on level terms before they make a comment. There are many good drivers in Formula 1, all of them deserve to be there. Lewis Hamilton, in driver skill terms is at least on level with Fernando Alonso, as proved in 2007 where they scored equal points, and lewis finished higher due to more wins. This is a fair comment with evidence to back it up. Please find some evidence to back your comment up. Also please change all the “we’s” in your comment to “I’s” and it might more sense as you are only speaking for yourself.

    2. djdaveyp…getting nervous? it’s not the end of the world…

  41. @mp4-24 (RIP)

    All I have to say is, a Pig’s Snout is perfectly designed, via the wonders of evolution, for it’s specified task. As such, that was a rather poor analogy. ;)

  42. Press release: Brawn GP

    Monday 16 March
    Circuito de Jerez
    Rubens Barrichello / Jenson Button
    62 laps / 12 laps
    Best Lap Time 01:18.398 / 01:18.892
    Kilometres Covered 275km / 53km
    Track Length 4.428km

    Weather – Hot and sunny
    Ambient Temperature – Maximum 24°C
    Track Temperature – Maximum 39°C

    Brawn GP continued testing in Jerez today on the second day of the team’s final test before the start of the new Formula One season. Race drivers Rubens Barrichello and Jenson Button were both in action and ended the day in second and third positions respectively on the timesheets.

    Rubens was the first of the team’s drivers on track to continue his programme from yesterday at the wheel of the BGP 001 car. He completed a series of set-up and tyre evaluations and covered 62 laps in the morning session.

    Jenson took over the driving responsibilities for the afternoon and began a race simulation before a gearbox problem stopped the car out on the circuit and brought his running to an early conclusion after 12 laps.

    Jenson will continue the team’s programme in Jerez tomorrow for the final day of the test.

    RESULTS (All timings are unofficial)

    Pos Driver Team Time Laps
    1. Fernando Alonso Renault 1:18.343 103
    2. Rubens Barrichello Brawn GP 1:18.398 62
    3. Jenson Button Brawn GP 1:18.892 12
    4. Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 1:19.513 87
    5. Nico Rosberg Williams 1:19.783 123

    Press release: Williams

    Nico Rosberg took over testing duties from Nico Hulkenberg at a sunny Jerez today. Concentrating on set-up work on the FW31 before Melbourne, Nico covered the most mileage of the five drivers on track today, clocking 123 laps of the 4.423km circuit while setting the fifth fastest time of the session with a 1:19.783.

    Nico will return to the cockpit for his final day of testing tomorrow before Kazuki Nakajima takes over.

    Dickie Stanford, Test Team Manager, Williams F1:
    “Nico Rosberg is having his final two days of testing in the car this week before the first race in Australia. We completed a very full programme, with the majority of laps spent on set-up work. Nico will carry on testing tomorrow.”

  43. why everybodys saying Brawn is surprise? C´mon…they started to develop their car in 2007…!

    1. 1. Because they’ve had two months of not knowing they’d be racing this year
      2. Because they’ve had a last-minute change of engines
      3. Because their last two cars weren’t much cop

    2. I couldn’t have put it better myself!

    3. It’s probably also worth pointing out that most if not all teams would have started development for 2009 around the same time. It’s the way F1 works.
      With differing levels of priority for sure but started nonetheless.

  44. Keith it would be lovely to hear you opinion on my blog. I just did a review on last season. If I get enough good comments I may write some more!

    1. Will do!

  45. I justlove the way almost every one’s written off Lewis and Mclaren for this season, mark my words there’s a shocker comming up for all you nay sayers!!!

  46. Hahaha, so funny some ppl are still saying Lewis is a bad driver….

    He has proven himself pretty good (pre f1 and now).
    When you see him drive irl, you see him and Alonso are the best in pure car control!

  47. Testing is testing. We won’t know anything real until Sunday in Melbourne. Happens every year. But, for McLaren to admit problems and run all sorts of of “basic” physical monitors (ie paint, that thing that looks like an egg slicer), well that just reminds me of the ’07 Honda in testing. Macca have obviously got something wrong, but it doesn’t appear too drastic really. They’ve just stuffed something up a bit. There are nine other teams that’ll be racing. Where do they stand?

    p.s. it looks like McLaren have taken over the role of everybody’s favourite team! Go Williams!

  48. cmon Lewis is a good driver but so is everyone else in f1. You cant say vettel or kubica wouldnt be champion if they had mcl. Or sutil or rosberg or whoever. he didnt have his R28 or Ferrari from that year Schu got in Ferrari. So let him proove himself with a bad or not so good car. I personaly think he is not a development driver. Take a look at motogp. Pedrosa is a great rider but he cant win anything and so cant Honda(ok hayden did win wc but only because rossi fell too many times). And yamaha didnt win nothing for some years. And than they got Rossi and he was champ the first year. Development and driver input is everything. I think guys like Alo,schu,senna,rossi are the guys that know how to develop a car/bike
    Bottom line – i think lewis is a good driver but only if he has a good car he can win.

  49. eeerrr alonso? what did i miss there? what happened?! where did that time come from, he made up .7 or something?

  50. People seem to forget that LH has only been in F1 for 2 years. And now they expect him to develop the car. And they compare him to Alo, Sch, Senna etc. just the fact that they compare him to these drivers tells me he is a good driver. And in time to come with more experience he Will be a development driver. but give the guy a break, its F1, you cant learn EVERYTHING in 2 years AND win the WDC.

  51. schumi the greatest
    17th March 2009, 9:25

    yes carl is right. Senna, alonso schumacher, all struggled at the beginning of their ceers to some extent with cars that they didnt know how to develop.

    that comes with experience.

    im a hamilton fan but im not so dissapointed that the mclaren looks rubbish because he will out-perform the car and show everyone how good he is, then hopefully i wont have to read stud comments on here from people who really dont have a clue about real talent. You dont have to like hamilton, the same as not everyone liked senna or schumahcer, but no-one can say them guys were not special talents, the same should be said of hamilton and i thinik this year he’l prove it.

  52. schumi the greatest
    17th March 2009, 9:25

    apologies for my rubbish spelling

  53. My point is that all drivers in F1 are tallented but some know what to tell the engeneers what to do with the car and some are just great drivers…dont know where LH is. But i hope we will find out!

  54. So is tyler leaving mclaren tat big of a loss for them?

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