Ecclestone & Mosley under fire (updated)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Ecclestone's comments about Adolf Hitler have drawn widespread criticism
Ecclestone's comments about Adolf Hitler have drawn widespread criticism

Fresh evidence of the failures of the status quo in Formula 1 have emerged over the past few days.

Whether it?s the rumours about Max Mosley?s close ally Alan Donnelly?s involvement with Manor, claims the prospective 2010 entrants were denied a slot unless they elected to use Cosworth power, or Bernie Ecclestone praising Adolf Hitler, F1 is finding itself mired ever deeper in sleaze.

Getting things done

Bernie Ecclestone?s remarks to The Times over the weekend were certainly not the first occasion F1?s tycoon billionaire has criticised democracy and talked up the virtues of dictatorship. But it was the first time he tried to justify it with reference to Adolf Hitler, which is why he got his fingers burnt:

In a lot of ways, terrible to say this I suppose, but apart from the fact that Hitler got taken away and persuaded to do things that I have no idea whether he wanted to do or not, he was in the way that he could command a lot of people able to get things done.

Last year Ecclestone gave more insight into his preferred form of governance:

I hate democracy as a political system. It stops you getting things done. I think people should have decisions made for them. Torture is just an old-fashioned way of getting things done.

The arguments about what exactly Ecclestone might have meant by his Hitler remarks have already begun in the forum. It?s not hard to see why Ecclestone’s words have been met with widespread revulsion – he is praising a man whose actions led to the deaths of millions. Ecclestone?s self-contradicting attempt to exonerate Hitler from his worst crimes is perhaps even more alarming. Nor is it any surprise that German politicians are now refusing to meet with him.

To the outside world, it now appears that F1 is run by a Hitler apologist and a son of a close friend of Hitler. Whatever spurious arguments are concocted to defend the supposed virtues of dictatorship, this is not a good image to project.

The Cosworth connection

The Daily Telegraph this morning reported that the F1 teams which submitted applications to compete in 2010 were refused entry if they did not select Cosworth as their engine supplier. Cosworth had previously won the FIA?s tender to supply discounted engines to new F1 teams.

Should we believe the story, which is based on quotes from an unidentified team principals?

I am inclined to. It matches another rumour I heard over the Goodwood weekend, that Prodrive?s entry for 2010 was rejected because the team had arranged a deal to use Mercedes engines instead of Cosworths. Added to that is this telling quote from Manor F1 team principal John Booth:

We wanted to be independent of a manufacturer because we don?t want to be used as a political pawn ?ǣ it was a conscious decision not to approach them.

If he?d said ??we picked Cosworth because they were cheaper?? I?d?ve believed him. Instead this leads me to wonder who persuaded Booth?s team that choosing a manufacturer?s engines would be a “political” decision? I certainly don?t think his team has avoided becoming a ??political pawn??. (Again, more discussion of this in the forum.)

The problem with dictatorships

On his blog, James Allen suggests we should look beyond Ecclestone?s eagerness to overlook Hitler?s crimes and instead take what he is saying at face value: that dictatorship has worked very well for Formula 1. Allen goes further, arguing this is and has always been what’s best for motor racing.

We could have an argument about whether a dictator?s touch was needed in F1 in 1982, or 1994, or 2005. But let?s stick to the present scenario. Is it working now?

I don?t believe it is. The dictatorial leanings of F1’s leaders is at the root of the problems the sport now faces.

Under the Ecclestone-Mosley hegemony, F1?s commercial rights were surrendered by the FIA for a pittance – compared to what Ecclestone then extracted from CVC for its stake in the sport.

CVC now need to make huge profits from F1 in order to pay for the loan it took to purchase it. And so the huge revenues F1 generates are returned not to the competitors or the circuits, but a private equity firm that brings nothing to the sport.

Would the teams have allowed this inequitable deal to go ahead if they had a say? I doubt it. Would Ecclestone have been able to execute it if he had been accountable to interests other than his own? Again, no.

Has dictatorship harmed F1? Yes it has.

Update: Ecclestone has done the sensible thing and apologised in an interview with the Jewish Chronicle.

151 comments on “Ecclestone & Mosley under fire (updated)”

  1. I for one do not understand why the teams even bother negotiating with these people. They have a once-in-a-lifetime shot at immediate independence, money in their own pockets, money for racing afficionados (e.g. circuits), intellectual freedom and removing all links with unhealthy political preferences.

    That said, I do believe the whole FOTA/FIA split threat was only there to oust MM.

    A chance wasted.

    1. I agree, I can’t believe they didn’t split when they had the chance. FOTA crumbled and backed down, and now Max and Bernie have them right where they want them once again.

      Silly, silly old men with too much money and not enough sense, the lot of them.

    2. Wasted it may be but a split did nothing for the IRL/Champ Car and the reunified series is now a shadow of its former self. I dont think that a split here was in the best interests of FOTA or FIA/FOM. Hopefully with FOTA growing power/influence/popularity with the fans, some of the financial issue can be worked out that ends up benefiting us in the future.

      1. ROBATCLAXBY
        8th July 2009, 21:19

        I think the split would have worked fine
        hope the FOTA fail to agree with th new teams and get another chance to break away
        from Max,Bernie, and CVC who are bleeding the sport dry.!

  2. Max and Bernie are the two ugly sisters and the F1 team owners are collectivley Cinderella

  3. Very interesting to say the least, and Bernie just seems to be going even more senile with his comments… not only is there a sordid MM tie but also racing in Germany this weekend? Does he honestly think before speaking?

    Silly Bernie will have to be restrained and shipped off to the Fletcher Memorial Home for Incurable Tyrants.

  4. Everytime they talk they just show those true colors again and again.
    These two guys are nuts, complete megalamaniacs. They are loosing their power and it is eating them alive.
    Its a good thing that all they are in control of is 1 bit of motor racing.

  5. The Cosworth revelations (ok, rumours, for now) – do they perhaps account for the attitude displayed by Luca di Montezemolo towards the new teams? I criticized him then for being a snooty aristocrat, but were there a lot of things left unsaid in his contempt?

  6. As much as I’m stupidly involved in both those forum threads… and I apologise for that and basically being pedantic (as I now realise I am)… however, I fully support what Keith has written here as a fantastic piece of considered journalism.

    James Allen says that…

    that dictatorship has worked very well for Formula 1. Allen goes further, arguing this is and has always been what’s best for motor racing.

    …maybe, but I argue that, with the Concorde Agreement, up until now we have never had a true dictatorship in Formula 1.

    1. Wow, thanks Dougie.

      1. Twitter is great!… ;)

        1. I hate Twitter but agree that this is a great article.

  7. HounslowBusGarage
    6th July 2009, 21:35

    Bernie is not stupid. So when he says stupid things you need to try and work out what he’s really saying and why he’s saying it.
    Luca says Max is a dictator, Bernie says democracy is not all it’s cracked up to be and dictators get things done. At the same time, Max is notably silent.
    It’s probably Luca’s move next as Max does not need to say anything that might confirm Luca’s claim. Luca can’t really criticise what Bernie has said because his opinions on subjects outside F1 don’t really concern Luca. So Luca has to be careful in drawing concern to the real shortcomings of Max’s management style and avoid a knee-jerk reaction to Bernie’s slightly provocative comments.

    1. Bernie is not stupid. So when he says stupid things you need to try and work out what he’s really saying and why he’s saying it.

      You don’t have to be a stupid person to say something stupid. But I think you’re giving Ecclestone a bit too much credit. His thoughts on democracy are no great secret but trying to put it in the context of the Third Reich (not to mention Saddam Hussein) is extremely unwise.

      1. …and pathetic in the truest sense of the word.

      2. HounslowBusGarage
        6th July 2009, 23:14

        You don’t have to be a stupid person to say something stupid.

        That’s my exact point, Keith. And we don’t know what the original question was to Bernie. “Bernie, people have called Max a dictator. Are there any redeeming features of a dictator that you admire, Bernie? And what do you think of democracy?”
        There is no denying that the Third Reich made great technical strides, but at a totally unacceptable cost. I say that as someone who lost family in those mad years.
        You could also argue that Saddam stopped the Shia killing the Shi’ite, but that’s for another forum.

        Don’t make me into an apologist for Max or Bernie, but I won’t go along with a knee-jerk reaction that everything Bernie says is to be taken at face value and slagged off accordingly. Bernie (and you) are too intelligent for that.
        The sure way for all of us to defeat the extremists of both sides is to examine carefully their motives and make our judgements accordingly.
        Sorry if that sounds impossibly prissy. I don’t mean it that way. There’s a lovely saying in German that translates as “we will wait and drink tea”. In other words, let’s be patient and see what happens.

        1. I see what you’re saying and I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.

        2. I agree with what is said above, I’m not a Hitler or Bernie/Max Show apologist either, but when something is said, i try my best to take it as it is, and without automatically condemning it just because it mentions some of the worst people to ever walk this planet.

          i see some people mentioning Saddam, what bernie said about that guy is right on the spot, i’ve been directly affected by Saddam’s Actions, and think the world is a little better without him breathing, but unfortunately what Bernie says about the subject is true.

          in the end i would like to read or listen to the whole interview/conversation before i put final judgement, if he made several examples to drive his point home and only the Hitler one was chosen and published, then the journos had a hidden agenda knowing his opinions on things of that nature.

    2. If you believe what he said was done in a measured fashion, your wrong. He made those comments in a manner of a desperate person. He is under tremendous pressure and he is starting to break. The references he used are so far on the fringe it isnt funny.
      I dont believe in being politically correct but even I have to draw a line with his references.

  8. Again, Fota should not be happy with this type of talk from the sport management. The manufacturers have got to be getting quizzed by their respective boards of directors, “what the **ck is going on?” The manufacturers are racing to sell cars. Not to help some confused old man spout off about Hitler. It is too bad FOTA didn’t stick to their guns. In America I saw how the Indy car fiasco went down. This is different. The manufacturers have got the better series with the bigger name drivers. Hate to harp on about it but they should have pulled out when they had the chance. Now they need to get both Max and Bernie out of their respective positions. Now that I think about it, CVC may take care of Bernie on their own if he can’t fix this mess. After all he is their employee isn’t he?

    1. I agree, Fota should take this latest little tirade from Bernie and along with the whole Max arguments and realize they are better off without either of them or the FIA(If they continue to support them).
      FOTA should start with a clean slate and in 2-4 years nobody will care about the FIA, Max, or Bernie.
      In the political world Bernie just signed his own dismissal papers.

  9. *Ecclestone quote I nabbed at Autosport:

    “Politicians are too worried about elections,” he explained. “We did a terrible thing when we supported the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein, he was the only one who could control that country. It was the same [with the Taleban]. We move into countries and we have no idea of the culture. The Americans probably thought Bosnia was a town in Miami. There are people starving in Africa and we sit back and do nothing, but we get involved in things we should leave alone.”

    This man is as bad as Max,there is no room for the Nazi party in F1 or the world.

    And now we know why Bernie has taken away the USGP…he thinks all of us Americans are stupid…but we are not,I’m pretty sure Bosnia is in South Dakota…uummm…West Virginia?

    1. lol….I thought Bosnia was beside Queens in New York.

      1. Indeed Wesley. While this is not a political discussion, Bernie should also remember that the actions in Bosina were a multinational operation, and servicemembers from many other nations- including his own- served there with pride and honor.

        Then again, with all of his attempts to get rid of the British GP, I doubt Bernie cares much about patriotism, except when it makes him money of course…….

  10. It has to be done somehow. B.E. and M.M have got to go. One way or another.

    1. Yes true,… that’s been the case for the past 4 years specially now

      1. Hey Maksutov any chance of you emailing me? I’d like to find out abit more about you and your views on things.

        my email scunnyman38@yahoo.co.uk

  11. Ecclestone’s comments about Hitler, Hussein, and other dictators originally appeared in an interview in “The Guardian” in March of this year. “The Times” seems to have taken those comments verbatim (without acknowledgment), and then added some new material. Although I do not condone Ecclestone’s comments, I do question why this issue is coming up now, more than three and a half months after the comments were first published. This seems more like a smear campaign, and although I am not a fan of Bernie (or Max), I do think that someone should make it clear that Bernie did not just make these comments in the wake of the latest F1 drama; rather, he was interviewed before the 2009 season began, and only days after his wife divorced him. While none of the aforementioned is an excuse, I still think that the press is being a little unfair here. If they had such an issue with these comments, why not raise a stink in March, April, May, or June?

    1. HounslowBusGarage
      6th July 2009, 23:17

      Good point Lance.

    2. Interesting – that’s not how another columnist in The Times tells it:

      So it was a piece of journalistic luck, in that fascinating Saturday Times interview by Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson, that the aged petrolhead began to range more widely and hilariously. Defending his mate Max Mosley against the word “dictator”, our Bernie observed with the happy insouciance of the insanely rich: “If you have a look at democracy, it hasn’t done a lot of good for many countries — including this one. I like people who make up their minds. If you have to keep referring to your grandmother before you do anything I think that’s dumb.”

      Have you got a link for this other article?

      1. Here is the link Keith (sorry, you will have to copy and paste):

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/mar/14/interview-bernie-ecclestone

      2. Keith,

        This is very odd. I just re-read the interview in “The Guardian,” and it has been altered since Saturday (I have no idea why). The Hitler and Saddam comments are gone. I had found that interview on Saturday after reading about it at “planetf1”:

        http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5414428,00.html

        It was only the following day that I even heard about the interview in “The Times.” When I read that second interview on Sunday, I sent a comment about the similarities to “The Times” (my comment does not, apparently, exist either).

        At the time that I am writing/sending this to you, the “planetf1” article still contains the reference to the interview in “The Guardian.” I have printed a copy just to assure myself that I am not seeing things!

        1. From the article at planet f1:

          Adolf Hitler was a man who “was able to get things done,” Ecclestone told The Guardian.

          Planet f1 is wrong. That Bernie quote was to The Times on 3 July 2009. I wondered, myself, about the mention in this thread of Bernie “Hitler comments” in March , as I didn’t remember any such remarks, and spent 2 hours searching, finding nothing. No media whatsoever reported any such remarks from Bernie Ecclestone in March 2009, or any other month for that matter, until The Times over the weekend.

          Glad to see the German’s have told Bernie to f@@k off–time someone did! D’ya spose Bernie will show his face much at Nurburgring ? What am I saying, of course he will, he has no shame.

          1. In checking further, I discovered an interview with Bernie in The Mail from February of last year. Perhaps these comments sounded familiar to what he said over the weekend.

            “In the old days it was easier to be dictatorial. But now in Formula One we have more of a democracy” – the word is expectorated like chewing tobacco.

            Then he gives me a sly, sidelong look, which seems to imply that other people’s opinions are something of which he takes scant notice.

            “I hate democracy as a political system” Ecclestone continues. “It stops you getting things done. I think people should have decisions made for them.”

            “A good dictator is better for a country than a democracy. Democracy … leads to confusion and bad compromises.”

          2. Hey dsob you want to email me @ scunnyman38@yahoo.co.uk and we can find out a bit more about each other and our views on stuff?

  12. I agree that you have made some good points in a good article. As you always do Keith. But one point you did not make, and i mentioned this in the forum.
    I believe Ecclestone is trying to take the focus off Mosley and away from His attempts to keep his Presidency.
    Mosley is only 69, which to some may sound old and to those quite young posters here, he may seem ANCIENT. But i feel that Mosley will take his presidency to his grave, which could easily be in his 80’s.
    Both Ecclestone and Mosley need to be replaced OR a complete change to a new series. Yes i know people are saying that IRL/CHAMPCAR/CART or INDYCAR is a shadow of it’s former self. But i say Indycar has never been a match for F1 anyway and is quite a different setup. So i believe a split in F1/FIA does NOT have to end the same way as Indy car. IT could actually be BETTER!!!!

    So as i said earlier we need to remember that MAX is still making his moves in the background.

    1. Scunnyman, I like your analysis. To me Max and Bernie are just old, not ancient. And Max will not go awat quietly. I bet neither will Bernie.
      If Fota breaks away, they completely neuter the duo into having zero influence or importance.

      1. Thanks Martin, i try my best.

        1. Those young posters here?

          C’mon bud, you’re not THAT much older…?

          1. So Gman you don’t think 20 yrs is a lot older than you? Or did you really mean i was 20 yrs older than Bernie? lol

        2. Geez, scunny, you must be ancient. LOL

          And I thought I was an old man, coming 59 in November.

          Nine month old daughter you said? Hmmm….can’t be TOO old. :)

          1. with all the crap going on with the politics in F1 dsob, it’s enough to make anyone feel olddddddddddddddd!!!!!. lol

    2. scunny, why do you always feel bad while mentioning your age? i find that very strange.
      anyway good to have you back. that pneumonia seems to have made you lot younger & energetic.

      1. Well mp4-19b i am an old git lol

        I try to stay young and active. Especially with a nine month old daughter to take care of.

        And on another note if F1 does not sort itself soon or breakaway and start afresh the it will be ME who breaksaway and leaves F1 behind. I am the biggest F1 fan, but i am getting sick of the over the top politics and overbearing rules and penalties.

        Personally they should just throw in the towel on FIA, as FIA cannot seem to sort itself, and just get on with a breakaway series with a clean slate.

        It seems that the deal between FOTA/FIA and Ecclestone seems like it is going to be a bit like putting a BAND AID on a bullet wound. Or a finger in the hole of a barrel full of holes. One problem may get fixed, but many more will leak.

        And this last story about Bernie just shows that these people do not deserve the positions they have.

        I have been watching a lot of old races and it just shows how bad F1 is now and has been for a while now. I have been waiting for it to get better but it seems it won’t anytime soon so i may as well stop if there is no breakaway or better president of FIA who can make BIG changes.

      2. Hey mp4-19b i’d like to find out more about you and your views on things, would you like to email me at scunnyman38@yahoo.co.uk?

    3. I believe Ecclestone is trying to take the focus off Mosley and away from His attempts to keep his Presidency.

      100% CORRECT! I am glad we have someone who can see the clear picture :) well done scunnyman! That is absolutely true.

      But i feel that Mosley will take his presidency to his grave, which could easily be in his 80’s.
      Both Ecclestone and Mosley need to be replaced OR a complete change to a new series.

      I must agree with that.

      So i believe a split in F1/FIA does NOT have to end the same way as Indy car. IT could actually be BETTER!!!!

      That is true. At this stage FOTA and the rest of F1 community have very strong ground under which they can continue to peruse the split if they so wish, and they should. This would be a positive move for everyone. But lets see what happens, bottom line is Max and his days are near end. Bernie has burned himself, lets see what happens.

      So as i said earlier we need to remember that MAX is still making his moves in the background.

      Again you have made a very correct evaluation of the situation. good job.

      1. Why THANKYOU maksutov, you’ve made an old or young or middleaged or whatever i am man smile. I just wish this whole circus would end and we can get to some decent f1 discussions without the inclusion of Max Mosley And Bernie Ecclestone. Between them since 1978 they have used FOCA as an excuse to rip the heart out of F1.
        If only they had invaded POLAND we would have known their intentions.

        1. I just wish this whole circus would end and we can get to some decent f1 discussions without the inclusion of Max Mosley And Bernie Ecclestone.

          I wait for that day with GREAT anticipation! :)

    4. jockmcspredder
      7th July 2009, 20:04

      I harbour the hope that FOTA are still working silently behind the scenes with plans to provide an alternative series, if only to be ready with their answer in the not unlikely event that Mad Max welches on the deal and seeks re-election.
      If Max pleads enough, maybe they’ll agree to run in one or two events in his series too.If they work with the seasons, we could have a very short close season.

  13. Why would anyone bother to look deeply into anything Bernie says? 50% of it is because he’s trying (failing)to play for shock value, the other 50% is just because he’s deranged. How deep can the meaning possibly go?

    1. FOTA should break away.

      1. FOTA should break away.

        Ah yes,no ‘dictators’ there,only those that are more equal than others.;-)

    2. Which is the right thing to do under the circumstances,but I guess that it’s too late for him already,and he’ll be labelled as a ‘Nazi-sympathiser’ from now on.Oh hum.

    3. I am frankly astounded by his “apology”. And to the Jewish Chronicle ! And they let him get away with it! Even more astounding.

      “In the end he got lost so he wasn’t a very good dictator. Either he knew what was going on and insisted or he just went along with it – either way he wasn’t a dictator.”

      Even in his so-called apology, he holds open the door for doubt as to whether or not Hitler was responsible for what The Third Reich did. Reading on in the Chronicle article:

      “What I regret is people who have taken this the wrong way and have been offended, …”

      And how exactly did we take this the wrong way, Bernie?

      From The Times:

      In an outspoken interview with The Times, the 78-year-old billionaire chastised contemporary politicians for their weakness and extolled the virtues of strong leadership.

      Mr Ecclestone said: “In a lot of ways, terrible to say this I suppose, but apart from the fact that Hitler got taken away and persuaded to do things that I have no idea whether he wanted to do or not, he was in the way that he could command a lot of people, able to get things done.

      “In the end he got lost, so he wasn’t a very good dictator because either he had all these things and knew what was going on and insisted, or he just went along with it . . . so either way he wasn’t a dictator.” He also rounded on democracy, claiming that “it hasn’t done a lot of good for many countries — including this one [Britain]”.

      Instead, Mr Ecclestone endorsed the concept of a government based on tyranny.

      “Politicians are too worried about elections,” he said. “We did a terrible thing when we supported the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein.”

      Again from The Mail, last year:

      As for some of the less palatable aspects of dictatorship, he remarks casually that “torture is just an old-fashioned way of getting things done”.

      I think you’ve made it quite clear, Bernie. I don’t believe anyone took it the wrong way.

      I do beieve that some of the earlier comments her and some I’ve read in the news are quite correct–anyone who continues to deal with bernie needs their he

      1. For some reason it cut me off and posted my comment before it was done.

        I do believe that some of the earlier comments here and some I’ve read in the news are quite correct–anyone who continues to deal with Bernie needs their head examined. And this includes the teams(FOTA).

        The deal isn’t done until all the papers on the new Concorde agreement is signed, right?

        So, I urge FOTA to go ahead with their own series. After the events of the past few months, I’m sure there is more than enough support in all quarters for FOTA to have their series running well for 2010.

        Also, just wanted to mention that the Champ/IRL split was quite different. One side had the best venues, other side had the famous names, neither dide had sufficient draw to really make it work.

        FOTA has all the major teams and drivers. They would be a success, and the memory of Max & Bernie’s F1 would fade away. The great drivers, the great tracks–the history would still be with the teams and drivers, no one would ever lose that.

        So I say “GO! Fota”, and let’s be rid of this never-ending pathetic drama that these 2 old queens keep dredging up.

        1. So, I urge FOTA to go ahead with their own series. After the events of the past few months, I’m sure there is more than enough support in all quarters for FOTA to have their series running well for 2010.

          Yes, FOTA should have continued with their initial plans of the breakaway all the way. Instead they made a love triangle deal (Max, Bernie and Luca), who knows what deal it is, what was said , what was agreed to. Nothing is known. It is all speculation and manipulative games. I’d say Bernie and Max outsmarted FOTA on that. Lets see what happens, i guess its all we can do. It is far from over, Max and Bernie have made so much damage already and they are still comfortably in power. I do NOT understand who gives them the support.

          1. … they made a love triangle deal (Max, Bernie and Luca), …

            Now THAT, Maksutov, is a mental image I could have lived without.

            LOL :)

        2. jockmcspredder
          7th July 2009, 20:09

          Bernie (and Max) should take his own advice and, if not lost already, should get lost!

    4. Apology should not be accepted.

      If any of the posters on here had said the same things then i am sure Keith would block us from his site.

      If Keith had said these things then we would have rounded on him and probably not come back to his site.

      Why do the likes of Mosley and Ecclestone think thay can get away with saying anything they like? I tell you why…. because they always do get away with it.
      Does not Max still work as President of FIA when he should have been booted from the job long ago. Does not Bernie still make hundreds of millions out of the teams circuit owners and millions of fans.

      They both need to be shown the door.

      And the only way of doing that is to give them the middle finger and walk away to create a new Grand Prix series.

      1. Why do the likes of Mosley and Ecclestone think thay can get away with saying anything they like? I tell you why…. because they always do get away with it.

        haha, again you hit the nail on the head. I couldn’t agree more.

        And the only way of doing that is to give them the middle finger and walk away to create a new Grand Prix series.

        I believe that is true. I am just so afraid that FOTA and the breakaway series is never going to happen. Max and Bernie will continue to manipulate them and everyone else because, for the life of me I DO NOT understand how, they continue to do so comfortably. And everyone who could be in charge to remove them from power supports them.

        Apology should not be accepted.

        As sad as it sounds, even if we want to accept the apology, how do we do it? ” Oh, no worries Bernie” !? …. what!? that will not make any difference, he is still going to remain in power with his long time mutual lover Max..

        1. Well maksutov I hate to say it being a fan of F1 for a long time but if things do not improve dramatically, like a giant raft of changes in F1 in the next 2 to 3 years then i WILL give them my middle finger and walk away.

          I’m sick of it all. Apart from the odd spark there is not that much great racing anymore. And who’s fault is that?????

          Well it’s NOT the fans that’s for sure.
          We are the ones who get the **** end of the stick at every turn.

          The trouble is the FIA took F1 down the wrong road at the beginning of the 90’s. And to correct that mistake then F1 needs to remove quite a lot of the changes that have happened in that time. Too many to mention. I see the only way to do that is to start again. Even if you get rid of Max, get rid of Bernie and get rid of most of the FIA establishment. You are still stuck with bad regulations, bad decisions made by stewards and bad decisions by WMSC. Still stuck with bad circuits or missing circuits. Missing countries for that matter. And of course bad cars. The teams do their best within the regulations. But everything needs completely re-writing so we can get back to better looking cars, better racing cars and drivers who can really race and overtake. Yes it would be way too expensive to get the circuits changed back to the less neutred tracks they used to be, but surely the regulations for the cars can be made so that they can run better on these tracks. Stop making rules and regs predominantly for safety. Yes safety is an issue, but it should not be the be all and end all of car design and race structure. Motorsport is inherently dangerous. I just say let the drivers race. Give them the tools to do the job and they’ll deliver.

          Oh and get rid of all the old farts on the podium celebrations and let’s have some dolly birds in bikini’s giving out the prizes.

          Wow!!! i waffled a bit there when i didn’t mean to.

          Never mind i am an OLD MAN!!! i can say what i like. lol

          1. I read that twice. Tried to think of a better way to say it, and couldn’t.

            Well done, scunny. Well said.

            Hmm…except for that “old farts” crack. I resemble that remark! :)

            And if you are that well-spoken each time you waffle, well then, waffle away, ma friend.

          2. Well dsob do you NOT want to see bikini clad girls on the podium then?

          3. Wow!!! i waffled a bit there when i didn’t mean to.

            Never mind i am an OLD MAN!!! i can say what i like. lol

            haha.. well I enjoy your views, so its all good lol :)

            And to correct that mistake then F1 needs to remove quite a lot of the changes that have happened in that time. Too many to mention. I see the only way to do that is to start again.

            I would like nothing more but to see that happen. I am not sure what FOTA is planning now but at this stage i would settle for anything if only the removal of Max and Bernie…, and that would be a HUGE step forward. As it is, at the moment we have nothing..

            Yes safety is an issue, but it should not be the be all and end all of car design and race structure. Motorsport is inherently dangerous. I just say let the drivers race. Give them the tools to do the job and they’ll deliver.

            Exactly, I think enough has been done on safety for now, lets see if we can improve the excitement and the racing. The technical rules need to be reevaluated and fixed, and hopefully made so that the cars could take a little punch without for example, the wings disintegrating into million pieces when the cars touch. This would enable closer wheel to wheel racing and would allow drivers to take that extra risk. As it is now, cars are unable to overtake, it is like watching a computerized game to which to the end result known.

            Oh and get rid of all the old farts on the podium celebrations and let’s have some dolly birds in bikini’s giving out the prizes.

            haha.. that would be nice

          4. I want bikini clad dolly birds on the podium!

  14. “Most of my mates are Jewish people, I spoke to two or three very prominent people today, Jewish people. One of them said to me, ‘Bernie, you’re more Jewish than all of my friends’.

    The man is seriously clueless.

    1. Yes indeed Verasaki. This man is clueless. I refer back to the post Keith put in referencing a columnest in the Times referring to Bernies comments as, “insouciance of the insanely rich.” Yes, the man is totally out of touch with reality and the real world.

  15. As funny as it may seem, I understand the feelings Bernie is trying to express. However, his means of expressing them are quite out of line…

    Obviously Bernie is blessed to live in a land where he is free to say as he pleases, and what I believe he’s doing here is trying to say that autocratic, one-person government is the most effective form of leadership. What it looks like to me is an attempt by him to defend his management style at a time when everyone is taking potshots at him and his buddy Max. So he launches a rant about strong leadership, and makes terrible choices to illustrate his point.

    If Bernie was looking for good leaders, there are many, many better examples from the pages of history he could use than Hitler and Saddam. At my very core, this upsets me because Bernie should realise that tens of millions of his countrymen- many of them not much older than he is- served in harm’s way to free the world of such dictatorship, and many of them diden’t make it back to dear old England to take part in the society he now enjoys rather nicely.

    At the end of the day, it amounts ot a very poor choice of words, but someone in such a position of leadership should know much, much better than to make such statements.

    1. Exactly

  16. Why dont they Bernie & Max retire,they should spend time with there grand children & pray to GOD so that they are taken to heaven .

    1. I agree with you on the retirement part for both of them, but I don’t think either of them has grandchildren at the moment.

  17. Oh, and one last thing that I don’t think anyone has mentioned anywhere….

    It really disapointed me to hear Bernie take a cheap shot at the Red Arrows in that interview. Perhaps he meant no disrespect to the squadron, it’s pilots and crew, and the RAF as a whole….but that team spreads a great deal of good will for the British Armed Forces both at home and abroad, and there are many other examples he could have used if he wanted to illustrate the effects of pollution and fuel useage on the planet today.

    We always hear Bernie and his buddy Flavio talk about increasing the spectacle and making the sport more of a show. Well, few things get me more excited for an event than a jet team flyover. I’ve never seen the Red Arrows in person, but I have seen the jet demo teams for the USAF, USN, and CAF on multiple occasions, and I’m sure many of you have seen the team at the British GP would agree that they add a great element to the day.

    1. Couldn’t agree more, they provided a stunning warm-up to the race, a really excellent show. What was more amazing is the fact that they were at Woodcote leaving a roll, and 3 seconds later were shooting over my head at Stowe. I wonder what their lap times would be like?!

  18. In the ‘real world’ there are a great many ‘dictatorships’ or ‘one party states’ that get along just fine.Indeed,we may find that our efforts to force democracy upon them will not only be resisted by their ‘rulers’,but also by the peoples themselves.There are indeed places where atrocities take place,but these aren’t solely limited to ‘dictatorships’.

    As for Bernie and Max.I’ve heard much worse than either of them down my local on an evening.’Normal everyday citizens’ in semi-detatched suburbia,putting the world to rights.LOL

  19. Ecclestone is playing you for a sucker Keith. He is implaccably opposed to Mosely and running the nazi card is yet another attack upon him and the FIA. Donnelly is the second front. This isn’t over by a long shot yet because nothing has been done about F1 economic viability across a full grid.

    Why are you opposed to a non manufacturer engine supplier getting enough critical mass to make their investment worthwhile? How else do you achieve that with only 3 grid slots open and the residual teams committed?

    The FIA is showing itself to be for a viable future F1 and many comments here are against it by just wanting to continue with a TV showcase of a few brands running around with popular actors unchallenged like world championship wrestling. This is an oddball year and the best racing for years except for the DDD being approved and the manufacturers are hating it.

    Sorry but I will be voting like Montoya if FOTA or Bernie get control. The FIA should then look to decentralise the engineering base away from the UK.

  20. Um, Mosley for Prime Minister?

  21. Isn’t the beauty of a democracy that things DON’T get done quickly. Rash decisions cannot be made which is a good thing. Multiple opinions get heard so a well thought out plan can be made as opposed to an ill advised quick decision? (sorry, BA in poly sci, couldn’t help it.) Go USF1!

  22. B.E. and M.M need to be replaced by younger men (or women) that haven’t been corrupted yet, then when they are corrupted, we get rid of them too. No matter who leads F1, that will be the cycle. But we still need to put and end to M.M and B.E.’s reign of terror.
    I’m convinced that if enough fans get together and show their distaste for B.E. and M.M. they will step down. They don’t have to leave the sport entirely, but just let other people take over.

    1. No they need to be removed from all involvement in the sport. They have created this sense of emergency and financial problem. They created the enormous bond for teams to even be considered. They created the absolute rule with an iron fist and if you dont play by the rules or criticize them, then look at Mclaren.
      No they need to be completely removed from the sport and only allowed to by general admission seats in the grandstands at best.

  23. Great post, once again Keith. One of the many things I really appreciate about your blog is the freedom to express opinions that might be considered controversial on other more “official” sites. I was censured in the beginning at Saward’s blog for questioning Max’s sanity, and just recently on James Allen’s blog for saying Bernie’s words were the mark of a senile old fool, an opinion recently shared by a higher up in one of the teams.

    One important point that I hope does not get lost in all of this is Max’s conduct in the new teams selection process. I think this really should be pursued and brought to light as the scandal that it is. Donnelly would do nothing without Max’s instruction (or, being kind, permission). This is clearly an ethical and legal breach, and may open the door to a challenge to Max’s leadership. Talk about bringing the sport into disrepute: start selling investment into a team that legally hasn’t earned the right to compete yet. Giving select investors a heads-up like that is akin to insider trading.

    Then there’s the Cosworth angle. This was a clear ploy against the manufacturers-who, it has to be said, Mosley courted to start with. But in doing so, the playing field was far from leveled, and it is becoming clear that not only were the teams that Max wanted told ahead of time that they would be using Cosworth engines, but apparently USF1 had other plans as well. When will this corruption end?

    And to add fuel, German Jews are calling on Germans to boycott the race: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098208.html

  24. What an idiot thing to say. Another Nazi reference by a top F1 person in 2yrs. Might as well get Basil Fawlty in for a nazi comment too.

  25. height of madness. what was the little troll bernie thinking? how dare he make references to that murderer mf hitler. has bernie forgotten his history? hitler was responsible for the death of 6 million jews in europe alone, not to mention the poles & the gypsies he massacred. This clearly shows bernie & max are out of their minds. they’ve lost all rational thinking. Hitler imo never commanded respect, he demanded it. These 2 old idiots have lost their marbles. They are going gaga over each passing day. reading ridiculous quotes from max & bernie has become a regularity for me. What do these 2 idiots want? FOTA, i’m sorry to say, urinated all over themselves. They had a golden opportunity to break away. Maybe if Ron was theboss of FOTA he would have certainly put an end to all this nonsense & broken away. but since is luca & not ron who is the boss, there seems to be that little loyality towards max from luca. after all it was the FIA at the instructions of max that allowed ferrari to walk away with all those titles. maybe max has promised the another one next year, which might have prompted luca to stay with the FIA. for an effective solution to the current ridiculous problem, luca must be replaced by ron imo. luca i belive still has some loyalty & a sense of obligation toward FIA & mosley. Ron will put an end to all these problems.finally i wanna ask a question. being a non-european. i wanna know why haven’t some Europeans gotten over the facist hangover? particularly people who hold high administrative position in europe seem to be fascinated about hitler & his rule of law. hitler is the personification of evil & bernie endorses him. so what is bernie? mf?

    1. @mp4-19b: I think you should ditch your opinion… though you’ve the right to think so, you’re completely wrong to think so. You’re seriously mixing things here, I’m not responding as a Ferrari fan, but as an F1 fan who doesn’t want to hear baseless theories about FOTA’s decision. You never know, on which circumstances the decision was taken. And the promises given by FIA was good enough to answer their demands (speaking about cost-cutting and regulation freedom and Max’s commitment to step-down). To say with hindsight, or to mock someones decision will always be easy :) With all due respect, nobody knows what Ron would have done if he acted as president of FOTA on that occasion. So, if you’re listening to me, I place humble request to you… not to play favoritism here. You’re questioning FOTA’s unity, which also includes McLaren.
      For your information, I’m no enemy to McLaren… I like Mika, Ron, Lewis and McLaren for their profession and talent.

  26. “finally i wanna ask a question. being a non-european. i wanna know why haven’t some Europeans gotten over the facist hangover?”

    Please explain mp4-19b?

    1. i didn’t mean every european. for example in some parts of germany,austria & Switzerland, people(few, maybe in 100’s) regret the fact that poland, russia & other countries were not captured by the nazis. they still believe that under the rule of hitler all of europe would have been unified & the total elimination of non-aryans would have resulted in total domination of the aryans. i find it very strange that many top personalities find hitler & his way of governing fascinating. For example a few years back the ex-austrian body builder & the present Governor of california, Arnold Schwarzenegger openly admired hitler & prasied him for no good reason. even a few years back an ex- italian prime minister openly justified the holocaust. i find that very disgusting. holocaust is the worst thing, the single most shameful thing to have happened in this history of humankind. the present day terrorism is nothing compared to the holocaust. just read the diary of anne frank & u’ll have tears in your eyes. yet many europeans find the idea of hitlet facinating. its quite unbelievable as to how they are so naive. what bernie has said is a disgrace to entire mankind. i believe he’s a jew, i dunno how he mad such stupid comment on a man who almost drove his race into extinction. bernie must be ashamed of what he’s said. he should think twice before letting stupid words out of his bitter tongue of his. i dont blame europeans for thinking what they are thinking. its people like max & bernie that makes them think in that way. its high time europe denounces fascism in any form. imo bernie must be sued for those irresponsible words that he uttered from his stinking mouth.

      1. Thankyou. Would it surprise you to find out that the Politically correct brigade in europe are trying to have the Holocaust removed from the School curriculum. The likes of Max and Bernie must love that idea.
        At least with Bernie saying the things he did it let’s people remember how bad things were 70 + years ago. I am not sure how much the americans know about the holocaust. Some know but not all. mY wife is american and doesn’t know much, but i try to educate her. i feel it’s a bit late to educate Bernie and Max. They know exactly what they are doing though, even if they may not truly realise that most of the world despise what they say and do.

        I wonder if others in FIA and WMSC are of a similar ilk to these guys?

        1. so they are trying to rewrite history. fine. so what does hitler become? a catholic priest? or perhaps the founder of the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile ? that would be convenient for history re-writers i guess. but i must admit that hitler would have done a better job as prez of FIA than max.first thing he would have done was to get rid of the dwarf bernie(for obvious reasons). its better to deal with one tyrant that two. we could have taken care of hitler later. perhaps take the help of the russians or americans to git rid of him.

      2. I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone in Switzerland that has publicly expressed the views you accuse all German speaking countries of harbouring, small though that faction may be. Switzerland has been officially independent since the late-1800’s if I remember my history (I am a dual Swiss/Canadian citizen). They are content to let any storm blow around them and take advantage where they can. A Hitler or a Mussolini on their border was simply an opportunity, not a threat. Hitler knew he had nothing to gain and everything to lose by “annexing” Switzerland. Every mountain pass, bridge and tunnel was (is?) wired to explode should any outside force intrude. There was no love for Hitler and his thirst for “lebensraum,” only an eye on where to make a buck. So, if you want to paint the “Germans” with the same broad brush, leave the Swiss out of it, although I can say that, my other half being Austrian, they pretty much fit into that camp.

  27. Fascist hangover hardly begins to describe the scars left by Adolph, Benito, and don’t omit Francisco Franco.

    Possibly the greatest group to suffer from Adolph’s dementia were the German people themselves. Granted, nothing can compare to the atrocities suffered by the victims of the camps, but the German people and culture were nearly obliterated by a lunatic who happened to be in the right place at the right time of history to dominate a country and lead it to it’s ruin.

    Kinda sounds like what Bernie and Max are doing to F1 now. And Bernie has the effrontery to throw it in our collective faces. It’s truly mind boggling that CVC haven’t terminated him already.

    As big a question as “who will replace Max” is, the bigger question is who would replace Bernie? The devil you know conundrum. Regardless, the little tyrant has to go.

    1. Fascist hangover hardly begins to describe the scars left by Adolph, Benito, and don’t omit Francisco Franco.

      Franco has his own history for not being remembered as a good thing for a country; he doesn’t need to be attached to any other.

      You should talk about Stalin, whose records in killing people are at least at the same level of Hitler’s one, more than trying to make Francisco Franco guilty of Hitler’s genocide.

      but the German people and culture were nearly obliterated by a lunatic who happened to be in the right place at the right time of history to dominate a country and lead it to it’s ruin.

      Hitler was democratically elected by German people. They were as guilty as Hitler, and thanks they have not forgotten that, now Germany is a fantastic and deeply democratic nation.

      1. yeah! and they’ve got a female vampire as their chancellor. omg! angela merkel is one scary looking woman.scares the hell out of me when i look into her eyes. she could have acted in the exorcist without any makeup! she has the scariest eyes in the world!

  28. we don’t need dictators, we need reformers & certainly max is not a reformer & must be shown the door. max is really a pain in everyone’s you know what! max will not let his soul to rip. he along with that dwarf bernie will device a plan to stage a coup & take over europe?? what nonsense!!!! this is formula one!!! what does that mf hitler have to do with it. what bernie has said is completely out of context. this clearly shows that bernie is an attention seeking prat, who is lost in a reality forgotten “land” or must i say “fatherland”!! this is all a ploy to divert attention from the core issue. but i must admit bernie has failed miserably :))

    1. guys, these two are inseperable. You cant have Max without Bernie. Or Bernie without Max, that is the way they operate. If Fota doesnt take this episode of this incredibly tasteless soap opera and use it as a reason to leave and form their own series they are just empowering the 2 little powermonges to continue.

  29. question: when does one know someone is schizophrenic?

    answer: when they start praising hitler & the Third Reich.

    would bernie have praised hitler in the way he has, if his mum or dad or sister were one of the victims during the holocaust? does bernie know the kind of torture those innocent souls suffered? no,he does not. it shows total insensitivity on the part of bernie. this sport is a cursed one. we don’t have people stooping soo low, indulging in out of context references & mud-slinging in other sports. only god can save formula one from the evil power of max & bernie.

    1. Maybe now we truly know some of the reasons why Bernies wife lef thim and divorced him.

  30. Amazing, how in mass media Hitler _must_ be portrayed as an epitome of evil with _nothing_ human left.

    This is a short-sighted idiocy! He was just a man. Sure, a man who started a devastating war, but then, the same can be said about many a king or emperor. And now self-serving politicians compete in earning cookie-points faking outrage at Ecclestone’s remarks. Silly, really.

    And finally: yes, dictatorship may well be a good solution for F1. It’s just that somehow it has to be ensured the dictators don’t remain in position for more than 10 years or so. Else we get the M&E catastrophe.

    1. Tell me… which Kings and/or which emperor have executed ove 6 million people and countless other atrocities?

      1. Well, offhand I can think of several leaders. A number of the Roman Ceasars, Hannibal, Alexander the Great…they were all responsible for countless deaths under their rule…but of course the deaths were soldiers in battle, not civilians rounded up like cattle to be gassed then burned like so much trash.

        I think Janis1207 is not cognisant of that difference, scunnyman.

        And I’d like to nominate Janis for the Totally Insensitive & Politically Incorrct Award for the month. Any “aye” votes?

        1. aye aye aye!!!

    2. totally insensitive remarks to make. but fortunately you are in a minority group of hitler supporters. may god show mercy on you janis1207.

    3. What’s silly, really is your superficial and facile explanation of a man who, human though he was in terms of being a mammal like the rest of us, was clearly not human like the rest of us in terms of possessing a conscience.The psychopath has no remorse, no voice of reason, only their selfish goal based in a psycho/spiritual soup of mental illness.

      Hitler was not just a man. He was a man who created/seized an opportunity to inflict his twisted world view on a country that was ripe for being taken for a ride. Germany was poor and insecure after WW1 and it was ripe for the taking and manipulating.

      Janis1207 you could probably benefit from reading a little history. “Mein Kampf” and “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich” would be a good start.

      As for dictatorship being good for F1, obviously that model has been tried and has brought us to the brink. And how would you ensure it doesn’t last longer than ten years? A vote? Well, that wouldn’t be a dctatorshipthen, would it?

      1. maybe he suggests a referendum. thats what dictators all around the world do. just to show the rest of the world that they have absolute support of the entire nation. but usually such referendums are usually rigged up. they are not free & fair as in a democracy. but with all its flaws, democracy is the only way forward in this 21st century.dictatorship is dangerous, especially if you have a man like max mosley at the helm. and yes janis needs to read both the books that you suggested. i’ve read mein kampf & find the first volume” A RETROSPECT” particularly disturbing. The man is such a evil. he’ll never be forgotten in history, even if they do away with the holocaust in school curriculums, he’ll go down in history as the man who destroyed humanity & so will max & bernie as the men who destroyed formula one.

  31. European Member of Parliament and former WRC driver Ari Vatanen has said he will run agains Mosley if he doesn’t step down.

    Too bad I’ve never heard of him.

    [quote]Vatanen throws gauntlet to Mosley -Reuters

    7.7.2009 at 9:23

    Ari Vatanen, a Finnish former rally driver, was quoted as saying by Reuters on Monday he was considering standing against Max Mosley should the Briton seek re-election as head of the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), the governing body of motorsport.

    “At the moment I am consulting the member clubs and am already seeing positive feedback,” the former Euro-MP was quoted as saying by the news agency.

    “I am considering standing. I think the time has come for a change. I would go for it, even if not sure of winning.”

    Mr Mosley had said in June after a row with the Formula One Teams’ Association he would not stand in October but has said since that some members of the FIA wanted him to seek a fifth term.
    [/quote]

    http://newsroom.finland.fi/stt/showarticle.asp?intNWSAID=22274&group=General

    1. HounslowBusGarage
      7th July 2009, 8:40

      Ari Vatanen may stand for FIA.
      That’s the best news I’ve read here.

      I’m not going to mention political figures or concepts or history again here. This is Keith’s racing blog.

      1. me too! i’m sick and tired of this dirty politics. this is what the FIA wants. to convert a wonderful racing blog into an ugly racist one,one fully filled with hate comments.this is one of the way to divert attention from the core issue. we as f1 fanatics must stand together & not give into the FIA & bernie. but bernie has failed to understand that the f1 fan is more smarter,cleverer than he thinks.

  32. Great to hear that Ari will try to compete with Mad Max in the FIA elections.
    After reading all the previous comments here, I have to ask – has Max’s and Bernie’s dictatorship of F1 (and presumably European motorsport in Max’s case) actually benifited anyone apart from themselves?
    Sure, Max is the man on safety and ‘green’ issues, and Bernie has taken F1 to places it has never been before. But overall, has ‘dictatorship’ worked?
    1.I think we have seen with the rise of FOTA that most of the teams are unhappy.
    2.From what we seen in the media, there are a lot of disgruntled and annoyed local politicians and race-track owners.
    3.There are not that many happy fans about either.
    This is just a snapshot of 2009, but I think this situation has been getting worse as the Bernie & Max Show has continued over the years.
    But I cannot decide if these are two old men with so much power they know they can say what they want and offend whoever they like, and know they will get away with it; or if they are two stupid old men who say the first thing that comes into their heads, and are surprised when people don’t agree with them……
    By the way, if Keith or anybody on this blog said the things that Bernie has just said, do you think we would survive the political backlash?

  33. Bigbadderboom
    7th July 2009, 9:22

    I always had a respect for Bernie, he has transformed our sport and delivered it as a fantastic spectacle to the masses, it saddens me that someone who I respected continues to make this kind of remark. Initially when I read his thoughts last year I presumed he was either being taken out of context, manipulated or simply mis-quoted. This recent interview enforces strongly his beliefs. A megalomaniac surrounded by sychophants in his professional life, and now sadly nobody to provide balance in his personal life, he should have all his influence over F1 removed before any more damage is done. CVC need to act against their employee.

    As for Cosworth being a “preferred” engine manufacturer by the FIA. This absolutley bewilders me, had the current manufacturers been able to supply engines this would have given F1 an instrument in which to exercise some cost cutting, which Mad Mosley seems so desperate to enforce. Current manufacturers would have been able to provide technical support, development support and even components, but oh no, Mad Max has to introduce another company (Cosworth) who will need financing from F1, will need to do their own research, restart their manufacturing of F1 engines and set up more departments all which would be charged to the new teams. Mad Max has cut the nose off dispite the face of Formula 1…….TWAT.

    1. The ‘Cosworth’ story has,so far,been nothing more than a bunch of unsubstantiated rumours.Nothing since the article in the Telegraph has changed that.

      It may be true,it may not be.But so far it isn’t ‘fact’.

      Under the original 2010 regulations it would have been a ‘no-brainer’ decision to choose the Cosworth engine.Why would anyone choose the ‘slower’ more expensive options ?

      1. Bigbadderboom
        7th July 2009, 10:01

        The fact it is rumoured and not fact is still worthy of us voicing an opinion.. FOTA had offered substantial assistance to the new teams as part of its own cost cutting suggestions. I personally see the evidence as fairly conclusive. I can understand why Max would be reluctant to hand FOTA/Manufacturers any more leverage, but my argument is more about Max sacrificing the good of the sport to protect it’s governance, and the power the FIA seem desperate to retain.

      2. has a cosworth powered car ever won a championship in the modern era? does max think cosworth are better than bmw,mecedes,honda,etc? max is a blind man.

        1. Right here goes mp4-19b.

          1968 Graham hill won for Lotus, and the top 3 constructors were Lotus.

          1969 Jackie Stewart won and Matra won constructors

          1970 Jochen Rindt won the driver’s championship posthumously

          1971 Jackie Stewart won and Tyrrell won the constructors

          1972 Emmerson Fittipaldi won and Mclaren won constructors

          1973 cosworth won all the races

          1974 Emmerson Fittipaldi won

          1976 james Hunt won

          1978 Mario Andretti won

          1980 Alan Jones won and Williams won constructors

          1981 Nelson Piquet won and Williams won constructors

          1982 Keke Rosberg won

          1994 Michael Schumacher won (huh!!!!) Benetton won constructors.

          Or is that not modern era? I guess if your old like me lol then it’s not. But yes nothing since 94′.

        2. Bigbadderboom
          7th July 2009, 11:10

          Most succesful independent engine manufacturer in modern times.

          1. And if Red Bull hadn’t dumped them and switched to overheating Ferrari engines in 2006 there would probably have been a couple of podiums for them that year – it was a good car and the Cosworth started the season the best engine, so they’ve not been that far from the top step very recently.

  34. i would suggest mika hakkinen as one of the candidates. he is a sensible man & adored by all the teams. he has fair bit of experience in rallying as he is from finland & he has also won races in DTM. MIKA FOR PREZ!!!!!!

  35. When it comes to the new entries I’m amazed that Mosley’s old Simtek partner Nick Wirth getting a ticket has gone unnoticed.

    Prodrive & Lola have everything in place to build a car & yet others, with nothing but plans on paper,got the nod?

    1. i hope we don’t have another roland ratzenberger in 2010. i fear the worse, if mosley is still there in 2010. he’ll resign only if a driver is killed or something?

      1. He’ll never resign mp4-19b He didn’t after Ratzenberger and Senna so why now?

    2. The Nick Wirth thing was commented on a few time earlier this year.

    3. By no means has it gone unnoticed, my friend. I had mentioned this when first it was announced that Manor had received one of the three new berths. Though it was in another Comments section in the then-current article.

      Also worthy of mention is the fact that Wirth was aerodynamicist for March Engineering, of which Max Mosley was part owner.

      And, as to the question of why Cosworth was getting such a favourable nod from Max? Remember March? March ran Cosworth engines. Max and Cosworth go waaaaaay back.

      Manor’s berth and FiA/Max touting Cosworth as the way to go on engines simply stinks of pork-barrel politics and feudalism.

      And one other possible conflict of interest possibility, or at least a pork-barrel sort of thing: In 2006 Wirth worked for FiA at Casamuro, designing the split rear wing design FiA proposed for the 2008 season.

      There’s enough favouritism in that mess to choke a good-sized horse.

      1. This has the stink of insider trading. I don’t know that much about it but i’m sure there has got to be some rule against that sort of thing, even in F1.

  36. Keith, thank you for making this article and an accurate analysis of the situation. I agree with all your views and comments.

    1. maksutov are you russian? if you are russian, what is the opinion of russians about the current state of f1? the russians have this great ability to analyze politics better than most others. including you. ur posts are really good.

      1. wow.. Thank you for your comments mp4-19b. I have lived in Russia and have Russian background … im not sure if all Russians could analyze politics well, but the ones that have that job… well I guess that remains to be seen :). I can tell you that the new resolutions between Russia and US are very positive for the world and for everyone. And it is nice to see them trying to work together, as they should. But this is entirely another matter.

        I guess analyzing these matters including those in F1 applies to anyone anywhere in the world. Everybody has the equal opportunity (or almost everybody) to learn and gain knowledge. I very much believe in democracy for life, in sport and in everything, this means sharing ideas, debating as a team, making decisions as a group, just as it applies in the scientific world and community where everybody works together regardless of which country or place they are from, and this is such a great environment to be in. As the very famous saying goes “two heads are better then one”, or “five heads are better than two” and so on, this will apply forever on any matters involving political or humanitarian grounds anywhere in the world. So only the system that instigates this ideology, working together, will win. That is why dictatorship can not prevail. Dictatorship is a historical flaw from which humans are still growing. It might have worked in the past in some places, but not in the world as it is today. Dictatorship is a rather inefficient system regardless of whether it is exploited or not.

        But regarding Bernie’s overly twisted views which are certainly fueled by Max Mosley, this is unacceptable. This does not belong in the sport nor in the business of the sport. they need to be removed. I have very similar views to you and scunnyman on that…

        1. Thankyou Maksutov for including me in that group. I would also include dsob, Gman and persempre(to a lesser degree, she is a ferrari fan after all lol) to the group of people who have very very similar, if not the same views as myself.

          Also Keith does have those kind of views too it seems.

          oh and maksutov i agree we could done without the love triangle image lol

          1. oh and maksutov i agree we could done without the love triangle image lol

            haha.. ooops, I think that “somehow” slipped out, ; I’ll have to try extra hard to keep my fingers from tying the damn thing, but I should manage :)
            —–

            Thanks for letting me know on the other people, i look forward to reading their posts :], certainly dsob and Keith of course I know :)

  37. Has dictatorship harmed F1? Yes it has.

    It has also helped it. I’m not trying to defend or justify Bernie’s remarks about Hitler, which were foolish in the extreme. However, I can understand why he argues for dictatorship in certain circumstances and it has had significant benefits for F1 as well as the downsides.

    When Bernie made his entry into F1 as a team owner in the early 1970s the sport was still basically the pasttime of wealthy amateurs, drivers and team owners both. Sponsors advertising on the cars had only just been permitted, circuits were fairly ramshackle and television coverage was a million miles away from where it is now.

    The then teams’ association (the name of which temporarily escapes me) was supposed to negotiate on behalf of the teams but couldn’t do so without discussing and agreeing it with all of its members. It was unwieldy and, as a consequence, it stayed an amateur sport.

    Bernie organised the teams into a more effective group with him at its head. The teams were happy for Bernie to represent them and he’s played a huge role in turning F1 into a global sport watched by millions. A single-minded vision achieved that, not management by committee. Can anyone seriously imagine that the FISA/FOCA war would have had a better outcome had the teams not been represented by a cunning and forceful individual against JM Balestre? F1 has made Bernie rich(er), but not for doing nothing and it works both ways – how many other team owners in the 1970s would have sacrificed a massive technical advantage (the Brabham fan car) for the sake of FOCA unity?

    It would be difficult to argue in favour of the CVC rights sale, but F1 would not have been in a position to sell its commercial rights for anything like that sum without the input of its dictator.

    1. Tim, i would just like to say, It has been said by many commenters recently including me that the safety issue in F1 would have come about after Senna’s death no matter who was president.
      So in the same vane it could be said that F1 would have evolved into something similar to what we have now even if Bernie had not been there.

      1. Had it not been for that pesky Issac Newton I would have discovered gravity…

        Perhaps you’re right, but we’ll never know for sure will we? And following your logic it could equally be argued that the present issues facing F1 would also have come about in more or less the same way without Bernie, too? Ecclestone would probably argue (as he has in the past) that he took on the risks when no one else was prepared to. Blaming the man for his failings while denying him any credit for his very real achievements is a bit too simplistic an argument, I think.

        After all, Jackie Stewart’s safety crusade of the late 1960s/early 1970s also seems like a complete no brainer in hindsight, but Stewart was very much out on a limb at the time. Would you argue that Stewart deserves no credit because someone else would have done it if he hadn’t?

        It’s easy to berate Ecclestone for the selfish, short-sighted things he’s done to F1. It’s less easy to take a more rounded view of how he has changed the sport. The fact remains that it was Bernie who seized the opportunity to transform F1 into what we see today, for better and for worse.

        1. Agreed Tim. But if bernie wants to take all the credit for the state of F1 as we know it now, then he should be willing to take some of the blame too for how bad the way things are. But he just won’t do that. I mean even when the man apologises for something he does it in a backhanded way, so he isn’t really apologising at all.

          And think of this as an analogy. Take a guy doing a protection racket. He will say he is making things better for those concerned, but he is still taking your money and not giving that much back.

          I’m just not sure i agree that Bernie has done sufficiently enough good to say he deseves as much credit as he wants and how much money he takes out of the sport.

          1. I’m just not sure i agree that Bernie has done sufficiently enough good to say he deseves as much credit as he wants and how much money he takes out of the sport.

            I’m not sure I agree with that either – all I was suggesting was taking a more rounded, balanced approach to assessing Bernie’s impact on F1.

        2. I do give alot of credit to Jackie as a soundboard for safety when no one else wanted to hear about it.
          Bernie as head of Foca did negotiate for the group as that was what he was good at and he let others run Brabham.
          As time went on and Brabham became uncompetitive than you saw the focus of Bernie change from team owner to becoming the only person to negotiate deals for the track as we as being the promoter for several of the races. As time has gone on his grip on this has gotten worse.(So have the tracks he has chosen)
          Bernie being the point man for negoitiation was ok for a while but he should have been kept on a short leash and the teams should have had better foresight and they wouldnt have beem put in this situation.
          After his latest set of comments I dont know of any track in the US that will negotiate with him due to the fallout associated with his comments. People in the US are to PC(especially the news) about others making these kinds of comments.

    2. Formula 1 was anything but an amateur sport when Bernie bought the Brabham team in 1971.

      Major factory teams included Ferrari, Renault, Alfa Romeo, BMW, and Ford supplied engines to several teams. Not amateur groups by any means.

      In 1971 the Grand Prix Constructors Association represented the various teams. And yes, it was unwieldy, but amateur?…No. Mosley was the March team’s representative at meetings between GPCA and FISA, and first met Ecclestone at one such meeting.

      By 1974 Bernie had convinced GPCA to re-structure as Formula One Constructors Association(FOCA).

      In 1978 Bernie became Chief Executive of FOCA. True, Bernie was a shrewd negotiator, and proved just how shrewd a few years later.

      The FISA/Foca War is the stuff of legend, but when it all comes down to tallying up, neither side really won. The whole thing ended not with a bang but with a whimper, as both sides agreed in the wake of driver deaths and loss of one of F1’s major sponsors that they should bury the hatchet before they all lost a fortune.

      And so,the first Concorde Agreement took effect for the 1981 season. Even at that there were still some rough patches and hard feelings.

      In that respect, the teams balked at the terms of the Concorde renewal and in 1987 that Concorde expired. Bernie dropped both FOCA and the Brabham team like a hot potato to cut a deal with FiA and form Formula One Productions and Administration(FOPA), which later became known as Formula One Management(FOM). FOPA would now negotiate TV rights for the teams.

      The split was 50% to FiA, 49% to FOPA(read that Bernie Ecclestone), and 1% to the teams. Also, FOPA would receive all fees paid by promoters. In exchange, though, FOPA would pay the prize money to the teams. FOPA set the amounts the teams would be paid.

      Yessir, Bernie was a shrewd negotiator.

      Yes, it’s true that in 1978 the teams were glad to have Bernie as head of FOCA, to conduct negotiations on their behalf. But none of them realized that at an opportunity for his own huge gain that he would abandon them and then treat them as he did through FOPA and later through FOM. Had they any inkling, I doubt if they would have elected him head of FOCA in 1974.

      To this day, Bernie still owes money to the teams from the arrangement reached at a later Concorde agreement, though Bernie denies this vociferously.

      Please don’t ever believe that anything Bernie ever did in the sport was of an altruistic nature.

      Yes, I’ll agree that Bernie really did put F1 on the global map, mediawise. Recently though, it seems his decisions on venues are based more on how much the venue can pay rather than on what is good for the sport.

      For that reason alone, all thinking people have to wish for Bernie to step down.

      There is much more to all this, and I have over-simplified some things for the sake of trying to make this post not hugely long.

      But I know what when on. I was there for much of it, and have dear friends that saw the rest of it.

      Bernie is no one’s friend but Bernie’s….he isn’t even really Max’s friend.

      1. Very well and eloquently put dsob. And do Max and Bernie have any real friends or just hangers on i wonder.

        I guess it does help sometime if you live through a period when things happen , rather than read about it afterward. Of course not everyone can have the benefit of age.

  38. I can’t wait to get old. It’s a magical age; you can just say whatever you think or want, because you just don’t care anymore. Just a bunch of hypocrites, the people who criticize Ecclestone for his opinions. Everyone is entitled to have one and everyone should be entitled to speak their minds. As J Allen said, the really important thing is not his opinion of Hitler (we all have one, why should we all have THE SAME one?), the really important thing is his view on dictatorship and if it really works for F1, because that’s what he’s doing. He’s running F1, not Germany.

    1. While I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I find that opinions reflect ones values and ethics. Perhaps even one’s morals.

      Also, I find that the importance of who holds what opinion differs with the position the person holds.

      Were it the teacher who had your child’s class who espoused such opinions, I wonder if your comment would be the same.

    2. Yes well, do enlighten us – what is your opinion of a man who preached hate and violence, and installed a system of industrialized, mass-scale, racial murder? Hm?

  39. Oh and by the way Keith, every time i see that pic you have at the top of Bernie i can’t help but imagine him with a squeaky voice like in Monty Python or even a chipmunk lol

  40. I have just been wondering, is F1 the only motorsport run as a ‘dictatorship’, or are the others run in a similar way? What about the likes of NASCAR and IRL? Or A1GP and ALMS? WTCC and WRC? It would be interesting to compare, as I have a feeling Bernie isn’t the only fish in this particular barrel…..
    Also, how does F1 compare to other sport in general? Basketball, Football, Soccer, Tennis – we all know the judges and referees can be a bit harsh, but what about the rule-making behind the scenes? Is F1 unique?

    1. I would say that F1 is a bit unique in the fact that there are “dictators” over various aspects of it but not the whole thing. Bernie controls the commercial side while Max (FIA) controls the rules.

      In IndyCar, for instance, there is a director for commercial development and a competition / rules director, but they both report to the same person (which used to be Tony George, but he just was forced out).

      In this sense, F1 is less dictatorial than IndyCars. I would guess that the France family runs NASCAR the same way – perhaps even more “dictatorial” because they also own many of the tracks.

  41. A couple of comments (and therefore threads hanging from them) have been deleted from this topic for racist content. For more information see the comment policy: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/credits-and-contacts/f1-fanatic-comment-policy/

    If you have a query about why a comment has been removed please email me via the contact form.

    1. I’m quite curious about these racist comments Keith. I have re-read the articles comments a couple of time and can’t see anything gone. Maybe they came on while i was away.

  42. Is anybody really suprised at what Bernie said? Nothing that arrogant beady eyed little weasel says anymore surprises me. Bottom line is IT IS TIME FOR BERNIE AND MAX TO GO! If that means a split then so be it, I would rather have a split than watch them bury F1 for their petty little reasons.

  43. To all who think a dictatorship could be a positive force: I think you are confusing leadership with dictatorship. Gaining consensus for a plan of action as opposed to shoving it down your constituencies throats. A minor difference that Max has lost sight of.

    As for Bernie, he is a business man who has sold out every principal sport should be based on to maximize revenue. He has swung the pendulum of the sport beyond sustainable financial levels. If FOTA thinks Bernie will kick more cash to the teams then they are operating with an agenda none of us have been privy to.

  44. As I’ve said in the forum on this topic, and I think this important – this very definitely was not just a poor choice of words on Bernie’s part. It is a question of lacking an adequate moral compass and about a willingness to trivialize and perhaps excuse predetermined mass-scale murder. Bernie’s outing, and anyone else’s along the same lines, is nothing short of abhorrent and should be clearly denounced as such. What a slimy little man.

    1. One more: to all those who are willing to excuse Bernie – realize that praising Hitler for his effectiveness, is like praising suicide bombers for their devotion, or a serial killer for his attention to detail, or a rapist for his taste in women…. get it?

      1. bernie is certainly not a rapist!!!he is a virgin. unlike max he doesn’t visit brothels. he is like a saint. he’s taken a vow of celibacy. he is like the pope of f1. he doesn’t allow evil thoughts to enter his brain. the man’s soul is as clear & holy as the ganges. he is a role model for all youngsters. he has written his last will & testament, it reveals that after he attains sainthood & reaches god ,all his earnings should be used for gambling purposes at monte carlo. now isn’t that a saintly will? tell me how many of us would make such a will. bernie is a really good Samaritan. now i pay my respect to bernie by raising my right hand to 45 degrees, the traditional Deutscher Gruß even known as Hitlergruß & shout at the top of my voice SIEG HEIL BERNIEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

  45. Maciek, short and to the point. Perfect! Unfortunately Bernie’s problems will fade with the latest FIA/Max hosing of FOTA. Time for them to walk, and not look back. That will solve both problems (Max and Bernie).

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