Ecclestone & Mosley under fire (updated)

Ecclestone's comments about Adolf Hitler have drawn widespread criticism

Ecclestone's comments about Adolf Hitler have drawn widespread criticism

Fresh evidence of the failures of the status quo in Formula 1 have emerged over the past few days.

Whether it?s the rumours about Max Mosley?s close ally Alan Donnelly?s involvement with Manor, claims the prospective 2010 entrants were denied a slot unless they elected to use Cosworth power, or Bernie Ecclestone praising Adolf Hitler, F1 is finding itself mired ever deeper in sleaze.

Getting things done

Bernie Ecclestone?s remarks to The Times over the weekend were certainly not the first occasion F1?s tycoon billionaire has criticised democracy and talked up the virtues of dictatorship. But it was the first time he tried to justify it with reference to Adolf Hitler, which is why he got his fingers burnt:

In a lot of ways, terrible to say this I suppose, but apart from the fact that Hitler got taken away and persuaded to do things that I have no idea whether he wanted to do or not, he was in the way that he could command a lot of people able to get things done.

Last year Ecclestone gave more insight into his preferred form of governance:

I hate democracy as a political system. It stops you getting things done. I think people should have decisions made for them. Torture is just an old-fashioned way of getting things done.

The arguments about what exactly Ecclestone might have meant by his Hitler remarks have already begun in the forum. It?s not hard to see why Ecclestone’s words have been met with widespread revulsion – he is praising a man whose actions led to the deaths of millions. Ecclestone?s self-contradicting attempt to exonerate Hitler from his worst crimes is perhaps even more alarming. Nor is it any surprise that German politicians are now refusing to meet with him.

To the outside world, it now appears that F1 is run by a Hitler apologist and a son of a close friend of Hitler. Whatever spurious arguments are concocted to defend the supposed virtues of dictatorship, this is not a good image to project.

The Cosworth connection

The Daily Telegraph this morning reported that the F1 teams which submitted applications to compete in 2010 were refused entry if they did not select Cosworth as their engine supplier. Cosworth had previously won the FIA?s tender to supply discounted engines to new F1 teams.

Should we believe the story, which is based on quotes from an unidentified team principals?

I am inclined to. It matches another rumour I heard over the Goodwood weekend, that Prodrive?s entry for 2010 was rejected because the team had arranged a deal to use Mercedes engines instead of Cosworths. Added to that is this telling quote from Manor F1 team principal John Booth:

We wanted to be independent of a manufacturer because we don?t want to be used as a political pawn ?ǣ it was a conscious decision not to approach them.

If he?d said ??we picked Cosworth because they were cheaper?? I?d?ve believed him. Instead this leads me to wonder who persuaded Booth?s team that choosing a manufacturer?s engines would be a “political” decision? I certainly don?t think his team has avoided becoming a ??political pawn??. (Again, more discussion of this in the forum.)

The problem with dictatorships

On his blog, James Allen suggests we should look beyond Ecclestone?s eagerness to overlook Hitler?s crimes and instead take what he is saying at face value: that dictatorship has worked very well for Formula 1. Allen goes further, arguing this is and has always been what’s best for motor racing.

We could have an argument about whether a dictator?s touch was needed in F1 in 1982, or 1994, or 2005. But let?s stick to the present scenario. Is it working now?

I don?t believe it is. The dictatorial leanings of F1’s leaders is at the root of the problems the sport now faces.

Under the Ecclestone-Mosley hegemony, F1?s commercial rights were surrendered by the FIA for a pittance – compared to what Ecclestone then extracted from CVC for its stake in the sport.

CVC now need to make huge profits from F1 in order to pay for the loan it took to purchase it. And so the huge revenues F1 generates are returned not to the competitors or the circuits, but a private equity firm that brings nothing to the sport.

Would the teams have allowed this inequitable deal to go ahead if they had a say? I doubt it. Would Ecclestone have been able to execute it if he had been accountable to interests other than his own? Again, no.

Has dictatorship harmed F1? Yes it has.

Update: Ecclestone has done the sensible thing and apologised in an interview with the Jewish Chronicle.

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151 comments on Ecclestone & Mosley under fire (updated)

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  1. Bosley said on 6th July 2009, 20:41

    I for one do not understand why the teams even bother negotiating with these people. They have a once-in-a-lifetime shot at immediate independence, money in their own pockets, money for racing afficionados (e.g. circuits), intellectual freedom and removing all links with unhealthy political preferences.

    That said, I do believe the whole FOTA/FIA split threat was only there to oust MM.

    A chance wasted.

    • ajokay said on 6th July 2009, 21:06

      I agree, I can’t believe they didn’t split when they had the chance. FOTA crumbled and backed down, and now Max and Bernie have them right where they want them once again.

      Silly, silly old men with too much money and not enough sense, the lot of them.

    • Wasted it may be but a split did nothing for the IRL/Champ Car and the reunified series is now a shadow of its former self. I dont think that a split here was in the best interests of FOTA or FIA/FOM. Hopefully with FOTA growing power/influence/popularity with the fans, some of the financial issue can be worked out that ends up benefiting us in the future.

      • ROBATCLAXBY said on 8th July 2009, 21:19

        I think the split would have worked fine
        hope the FOTA fail to agree with th new teams and get another chance to break away
        from Max,Bernie, and CVC who are bleeding the sport dry.!

  2. fastmike said on 6th July 2009, 20:43

    Max and Bernie are the two ugly sisters and the F1 team owners are collectivley Cinderella

  3. Stoo said on 6th July 2009, 20:45

    Very interesting to say the least, and Bernie just seems to be going even more senile with his comments… not only is there a sordid MM tie but also racing in Germany this weekend? Does he honestly think before speaking?

    Silly Bernie will have to be restrained and shipped off to the Fletcher Memorial Home for Incurable Tyrants.

  4. Martin said on 6th July 2009, 21:09

    Everytime they talk they just show those true colors again and again.
    These two guys are nuts, complete megalamaniacs. They are loosing their power and it is eating them alive.
    Its a good thing that all they are in control of is 1 bit of motor racing.

  5. Maciek said on 6th July 2009, 21:26

    The Cosworth revelations (ok, rumours, for now) – do they perhaps account for the attitude displayed by Luca di Montezemolo towards the new teams? I criticized him then for being a snooty aristocrat, but were there a lot of things left unsaid in his contempt?

  6. Dougie said on 6th July 2009, 21:35

    As much as I’m stupidly involved in both those forum threads… and I apologise for that and basically being pedantic (as I now realise I am)… however, I fully support what Keith has written here as a fantastic piece of considered journalism.

    James Allen says that…

    that dictatorship has worked very well for Formula 1. Allen goes further, arguing this is and has always been what’s best for motor racing.

    …maybe, but I argue that, with the Concorde Agreement, up until now we have never had a true dictatorship in Formula 1.

  7. HounslowBusGarage said on 6th July 2009, 21:35

    Bernie is not stupid. So when he says stupid things you need to try and work out what he’s really saying and why he’s saying it.
    Luca says Max is a dictator, Bernie says democracy is not all it’s cracked up to be and dictators get things done. At the same time, Max is notably silent.
    It’s probably Luca’s move next as Max does not need to say anything that might confirm Luca’s claim. Luca can’t really criticise what Bernie has said because his opinions on subjects outside F1 don’t really concern Luca. So Luca has to be careful in drawing concern to the real shortcomings of Max’s management style and avoid a knee-jerk reaction to Bernie’s slightly provocative comments.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 6th July 2009, 21:54

      Bernie is not stupid. So when he says stupid things you need to try and work out what he’s really saying and why he’s saying it.

      You don’t have to be a stupid person to say something stupid. But I think you’re giving Ecclestone a bit too much credit. His thoughts on democracy are no great secret but trying to put it in the context of the Third Reich (not to mention Saddam Hussein) is extremely unwise.

      • pSynrg said on 6th July 2009, 22:03

        …and pathetic in the truest sense of the word.

      • HounslowBusGarage said on 6th July 2009, 23:14

        You don’t have to be a stupid person to say something stupid.

        That’s my exact point, Keith. And we don’t know what the original question was to Bernie. “Bernie, people have called Max a dictator. Are there any redeeming features of a dictator that you admire, Bernie? And what do you think of democracy?”
        There is no denying that the Third Reich made great technical strides, but at a totally unacceptable cost. I say that as someone who lost family in those mad years.
        You could also argue that Saddam stopped the Shia killing the Shi’ite, but that’s for another forum.

        Don’t make me into an apologist for Max or Bernie, but I won’t go along with a knee-jerk reaction that everything Bernie says is to be taken at face value and slagged off accordingly. Bernie (and you) are too intelligent for that.
        The sure way for all of us to defeat the extremists of both sides is to examine carefully their motives and make our judgements accordingly.
        Sorry if that sounds impossibly prissy. I don’t mean it that way. There’s a lovely saying in German that translates as “we will wait and drink tea”. In other words, let’s be patient and see what happens.

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 6th July 2009, 23:36

          I see what you’re saying and I’m not trying to put words in your mouth.

        • Ronman said on 7th July 2009, 7:10

          I agree with what is said above, I’m not a Hitler or Bernie/Max Show apologist either, but when something is said, i try my best to take it as it is, and without automatically condemning it just because it mentions some of the worst people to ever walk this planet.

          i see some people mentioning Saddam, what bernie said about that guy is right on the spot, i’ve been directly affected by Saddam’s Actions, and think the world is a little better without him breathing, but unfortunately what Bernie says about the subject is true.

          in the end i would like to read or listen to the whole interview/conversation before i put final judgement, if he made several examples to drive his point home and only the Hitler one was chosen and published, then the journos had a hidden agenda knowing his opinions on things of that nature.

    • Martin said on 6th July 2009, 23:04

      If you believe what he said was done in a measured fashion, your wrong. He made those comments in a manner of a desperate person. He is under tremendous pressure and he is starting to break. The references he used are so far on the fringe it isnt funny.
      I dont believe in being politically correct but even I have to draw a line with his references.

  8. Leaf said on 6th July 2009, 21:51

    Again, Fota should not be happy with this type of talk from the sport management. The manufacturers have got to be getting quizzed by their respective boards of directors, “what the **ck is going on?” The manufacturers are racing to sell cars. Not to help some confused old man spout off about Hitler. It is too bad FOTA didn’t stick to their guns. In America I saw how the Indy car fiasco went down. This is different. The manufacturers have got the better series with the bigger name drivers. Hate to harp on about it but they should have pulled out when they had the chance. Now they need to get both Max and Bernie out of their respective positions. Now that I think about it, CVC may take care of Bernie on their own if he can’t fix this mess. After all he is their employee isn’t he?

    • Martin said on 6th July 2009, 23:08

      I agree, Fota should take this latest little tirade from Bernie and along with the whole Max arguments and realize they are better off without either of them or the FIA(If they continue to support them).
      FOTA should start with a clean slate and in 2-4 years nobody will care about the FIA, Max, or Bernie.
      In the political world Bernie just signed his own dismissal papers.

  9. Wesley said on 6th July 2009, 22:05

    *Ecclestone quote I nabbed at Autosport:

    “Politicians are too worried about elections,” he explained. “We did a terrible thing when we supported the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein, he was the only one who could control that country. It was the same [with the Taleban]. We move into countries and we have no idea of the culture. The Americans probably thought Bosnia was a town in Miami. There are people starving in Africa and we sit back and do nothing, but we get involved in things we should leave alone.”

    This man is as bad as Max,there is no room for the Nazi party in F1 or the world.

    And now we know why Bernie has taken away the USGP…he thinks all of us Americans are stupid…but we are not,I’m pretty sure Bosnia is in South Dakota…uummm…West Virginia?

    • Martin said on 6th July 2009, 23:11

      lol….I thought Bosnia was beside Queens in New York.

      • Gman said on 7th July 2009, 1:19

        Indeed Wesley. While this is not a political discussion, Bernie should also remember that the actions in Bosina were a multinational operation, and servicemembers from many other nations- including his own- served there with pride and honor.

        Then again, with all of his attempts to get rid of the British GP, I doubt Bernie cares much about patriotism, except when it makes him money of course…….

  10. Brian said on 6th July 2009, 22:40

    It has to be done somehow. B.E. and M.M have got to go. One way or another.

  11. Lance said on 6th July 2009, 22:58

    Ecclestone’s comments about Hitler, Hussein, and other dictators originally appeared in an interview in “The Guardian” in March of this year. “The Times” seems to have taken those comments verbatim (without acknowledgment), and then added some new material. Although I do not condone Ecclestone’s comments, I do question why this issue is coming up now, more than three and a half months after the comments were first published. This seems more like a smear campaign, and although I am not a fan of Bernie (or Max), I do think that someone should make it clear that Bernie did not just make these comments in the wake of the latest F1 drama; rather, he was interviewed before the 2009 season began, and only days after his wife divorced him. While none of the aforementioned is an excuse, I still think that the press is being a little unfair here. If they had such an issue with these comments, why not raise a stink in March, April, May, or June?

    • HounslowBusGarage said on 6th July 2009, 23:17

      Good point Lance.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 6th July 2009, 23:27

      Interesting – that’s not how another columnist in The Times tells it:

      So it was a piece of journalistic luck, in that fascinating Saturday Times interview by Rachel Sylvester and Alice Thomson, that the aged petrolhead began to range more widely and hilariously. Defending his mate Max Mosley against the word “dictator”, our Bernie observed with the happy insouciance of the insanely rich: “If you have a look at democracy, it hasn’t done a lot of good for many countries — including this one. I like people who make up their minds. If you have to keep referring to your grandmother before you do anything I think that’s dumb.”

      Have you got a link for this other article?

      • Lance said on 7th July 2009, 3:22

        Here is the link Keith (sorry, you will have to copy and paste):

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/mar/14/interview-bernie-ecclestone

      • Lance said on 7th July 2009, 3:51

        Keith,

        This is very odd. I just re-read the interview in “The Guardian,” and it has been altered since Saturday (I have no idea why). The Hitler and Saddam comments are gone. I had found that interview on Saturday after reading about it at “planetf1″:

        http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5414428,00.html

        It was only the following day that I even heard about the interview in “The Times.” When I read that second interview on Sunday, I sent a comment about the similarities to “The Times” (my comment does not, apparently, exist either).

        At the time that I am writing/sending this to you, the “planetf1″ article still contains the reference to the interview in “The Guardian.” I have printed a copy just to assure myself that I am not seeing things!

        • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 7:26

          From the article at planet f1:

          Adolf Hitler was a man who “was able to get things done,” Ecclestone told The Guardian.

          Planet f1 is wrong. That Bernie quote was to The Times on 3 July 2009. I wondered, myself, about the mention in this thread of Bernie “Hitler comments” in March , as I didn’t remember any such remarks, and spent 2 hours searching, finding nothing. No media whatsoever reported any such remarks from Bernie Ecclestone in March 2009, or any other month for that matter, until The Times over the weekend.

          Glad to see the German’s have told Bernie to f@@k off–time someone did! D’ya spose Bernie will show his face much at Nurburgring ? What am I saying, of course he will, he has no shame.

          • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 7:37

            In checking further, I discovered an interview with Bernie in The Mail from February of last year. Perhaps these comments sounded familiar to what he said over the weekend.

            “In the old days it was easier to be dictatorial. But now in Formula One we have more of a democracy” – the word is expectorated like chewing tobacco.

            Then he gives me a sly, sidelong look, which seems to imply that other people’s opinions are something of which he takes scant notice.

            “I hate democracy as a political system” Ecclestone continues. “It stops you getting things done. I think people should have decisions made for them.”

            “A good dictator is better for a country than a democracy. Democracy … leads to confusion and bad compromises.”

          • scunnyman said on 8th July 2009, 10:30

            Hey dsob you want to email me @ scunnyman38@yahoo.co.uk and we can find out a bit more about each other and our views on stuff?

  12. scunnyman said on 6th July 2009, 23:20

    I agree that you have made some good points in a good article. As you always do Keith. But one point you did not make, and i mentioned this in the forum.
    I believe Ecclestone is trying to take the focus off Mosley and away from His attempts to keep his Presidency.
    Mosley is only 69, which to some may sound old and to those quite young posters here, he may seem ANCIENT. But i feel that Mosley will take his presidency to his grave, which could easily be in his 80’s.
    Both Ecclestone and Mosley need to be replaced OR a complete change to a new series. Yes i know people are saying that IRL/CHAMPCAR/CART or INDYCAR is a shadow of it’s former self. But i say Indycar has never been a match for F1 anyway and is quite a different setup. So i believe a split in F1/FIA does NOT have to end the same way as Indy car. IT could actually be BETTER!!!!

    So as i said earlier we need to remember that MAX is still making his moves in the background.

    • Martin said on 7th July 2009, 0:14

      Scunnyman, I like your analysis. To me Max and Bernie are just old, not ancient. And Max will not go awat quietly. I bet neither will Bernie.
      If Fota breaks away, they completely neuter the duo into having zero influence or importance.

      • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 0:22

        Thanks Martin, i try my best.

        • Gman said on 7th July 2009, 1:20

          Those young posters here?

          C’mon bud, you’re not THAT much older…?

          • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 2:14

            So Gman you don’t think 20 yrs is a lot older than you? Or did you really mean i was 20 yrs older than Bernie? lol

        • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 8:35

          Geez, scunny, you must be ancient. LOL

          And I thought I was an old man, coming 59 in November.

          Nine month old daughter you said? Hmmm….can’t be TOO old. :)

          • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 10:16

            with all the crap going on with the politics in F1 dsob, it’s enough to make anyone feel olddddddddddddddd!!!!!. lol

    • mp4-19b said on 7th July 2009, 5:14

      scunny, why do you always feel bad while mentioning your age? i find that very strange.
      anyway good to have you back. that pneumonia seems to have made you lot younger & energetic.

      • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 5:46

        Well mp4-19b i am an old git lol

        I try to stay young and active. Especially with a nine month old daughter to take care of.

        And on another note if F1 does not sort itself soon or breakaway and start afresh the it will be ME who breaksaway and leaves F1 behind. I am the biggest F1 fan, but i am getting sick of the over the top politics and overbearing rules and penalties.

        Personally they should just throw in the towel on FIA, as FIA cannot seem to sort itself, and just get on with a breakaway series with a clean slate.

        It seems that the deal between FOTA/FIA and Ecclestone seems like it is going to be a bit like putting a BAND AID on a bullet wound. Or a finger in the hole of a barrel full of holes. One problem may get fixed, but many more will leak.

        And this last story about Bernie just shows that these people do not deserve the positions they have.

        I have been watching a lot of old races and it just shows how bad F1 is now and has been for a while now. I have been waiting for it to get better but it seems it won’t anytime soon so i may as well stop if there is no breakaway or better president of FIA who can make BIG changes.

      • scunnyman said on 8th July 2009, 10:33

        Hey mp4-19b i’d like to find out more about you and your views on things, would you like to email me at scunnyman38@yahoo.co.uk?

    • Maksutov said on 7th July 2009, 9:55

      I believe Ecclestone is trying to take the focus off Mosley and away from His attempts to keep his Presidency.

      100% CORRECT! I am glad we have someone who can see the clear picture :) well done scunnyman! That is absolutely true.

      But i feel that Mosley will take his presidency to his grave, which could easily be in his 80’s.
      Both Ecclestone and Mosley need to be replaced OR a complete change to a new series.

      I must agree with that.

      So i believe a split in F1/FIA does NOT have to end the same way as Indy car. IT could actually be BETTER!!!!

      That is true. At this stage FOTA and the rest of F1 community have very strong ground under which they can continue to peruse the split if they so wish, and they should. This would be a positive move for everyone. But lets see what happens, bottom line is Max and his days are near end. Bernie has burned himself, lets see what happens.

      So as i said earlier we need to remember that MAX is still making his moves in the background.

      Again you have made a very correct evaluation of the situation. good job.

      • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 10:23

        Why THANKYOU maksutov, you’ve made an old or young or middleaged or whatever i am man smile. I just wish this whole circus would end and we can get to some decent f1 discussions without the inclusion of Max Mosley And Bernie Ecclestone. Between them since 1978 they have used FOCA as an excuse to rip the heart out of F1.
        If only they had invaded POLAND we would have known their intentions.

        • Maksutov said on 7th July 2009, 14:50

          I just wish this whole circus would end and we can get to some decent f1 discussions without the inclusion of Max Mosley And Bernie Ecclestone.

          I wait for that day with GREAT anticipation! :)

    • jockmcspredder said on 7th July 2009, 20:04

      I harbour the hope that FOTA are still working silently behind the scenes with plans to provide an alternative series, if only to be ready with their answer in the not unlikely event that Mad Max welches on the deal and seeks re-election.
      If Max pleads enough, maybe they’ll agree to run in one or two events in his series too.If they work with the seasons, we could have a very short close season.

  13. verasaki said on 6th July 2009, 23:31

    Why would anyone bother to look deeply into anything Bernie says? 50% of it is because he’s trying (failing)to play for shock value, the other 50% is just because he’s deranged. How deep can the meaning possibly go?

    • FOTA should break away.

      • VXR said on 7th July 2009, 1:32

        FOTA should break away.

        Ah yes,no ‘dictators’ there,only those that are more equal than others.;-)

    • VXR said on 7th July 2009, 1:27

      Which is the right thing to do under the circumstances,but I guess that it’s too late for him already,and he’ll be labelled as a ‘Nazi-sympathiser’ from now on.Oh hum.

    • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 7:56

      I am frankly astounded by his “apology”. And to the Jewish Chronicle ! And they let him get away with it! Even more astounding.

      “In the end he got lost so he wasn’t a very good dictator. Either he knew what was going on and insisted or he just went along with it – either way he wasn’t a dictator.”

      Even in his so-called apology, he holds open the door for doubt as to whether or not Hitler was responsible for what The Third Reich did. Reading on in the Chronicle article:

      “What I regret is people who have taken this the wrong way and have been offended, …”

      And how exactly did we take this the wrong way, Bernie?

      From The Times:

      In an outspoken interview with The Times, the 78-year-old billionaire chastised contemporary politicians for their weakness and extolled the virtues of strong leadership.

      Mr Ecclestone said: “In a lot of ways, terrible to say this I suppose, but apart from the fact that Hitler got taken away and persuaded to do things that I have no idea whether he wanted to do or not, he was in the way that he could command a lot of people, able to get things done.

      “In the end he got lost, so he wasn’t a very good dictator because either he had all these things and knew what was going on and insisted, or he just went along with it . . . so either way he wasn’t a dictator.” He also rounded on democracy, claiming that “it hasn’t done a lot of good for many countries — including this one [Britain]”.

      Instead, Mr Ecclestone endorsed the concept of a government based on tyranny.

      “Politicians are too worried about elections,” he said. “We did a terrible thing when we supported the idea of getting rid of Saddam Hussein.”

      Again from The Mail, last year:

      As for some of the less palatable aspects of dictatorship, he remarks casually that “torture is just an old-fashioned way of getting things done”.

      I think you’ve made it quite clear, Bernie. I don’t believe anyone took it the wrong way.

      I do beieve that some of the earlier comments her and some I’ve read in the news are quite correct–anyone who continues to deal with bernie needs their he

      • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 8:06

        For some reason it cut me off and posted my comment before it was done.

        I do believe that some of the earlier comments here and some I’ve read in the news are quite correct–anyone who continues to deal with Bernie needs their head examined. And this includes the teams(FOTA).

        The deal isn’t done until all the papers on the new Concorde agreement is signed, right?

        So, I urge FOTA to go ahead with their own series. After the events of the past few months, I’m sure there is more than enough support in all quarters for FOTA to have their series running well for 2010.

        Also, just wanted to mention that the Champ/IRL split was quite different. One side had the best venues, other side had the famous names, neither dide had sufficient draw to really make it work.

        FOTA has all the major teams and drivers. They would be a success, and the memory of Max & Bernie’s F1 would fade away. The great drivers, the great tracks–the history would still be with the teams and drivers, no one would ever lose that.

        So I say “GO! Fota”, and let’s be rid of this never-ending pathetic drama that these 2 old queens keep dredging up.

        • Maksutov said on 7th July 2009, 11:01

          So, I urge FOTA to go ahead with their own series. After the events of the past few months, I’m sure there is more than enough support in all quarters for FOTA to have their series running well for 2010.

          Yes, FOTA should have continued with their initial plans of the breakaway all the way. Instead they made a love triangle deal (Max, Bernie and Luca), who knows what deal it is, what was said , what was agreed to. Nothing is known. It is all speculation and manipulative games. I’d say Bernie and Max outsmarted FOTA on that. Lets see what happens, i guess its all we can do. It is far from over, Max and Bernie have made so much damage already and they are still comfortably in power. I do NOT understand who gives them the support.

          • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 12:51

            … they made a love triangle deal (Max, Bernie and Luca), …

            Now THAT, Maksutov, is a mental image I could have lived without.

            LOL :)

        • jockmcspredder said on 7th July 2009, 20:09

          Bernie (and Max) should take his own advice and, if not lost already, should get lost!

    • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 10:29

      Apology should not be accepted.

      If any of the posters on here had said the same things then i am sure Keith would block us from his site.

      If Keith had said these things then we would have rounded on him and probably not come back to his site.

      Why do the likes of Mosley and Ecclestone think thay can get away with saying anything they like? I tell you why…. because they always do get away with it.
      Does not Max still work as President of FIA when he should have been booted from the job long ago. Does not Bernie still make hundreds of millions out of the teams circuit owners and millions of fans.

      They both need to be shown the door.

      And the only way of doing that is to give them the middle finger and walk away to create a new Grand Prix series.

      • Maksutov said on 7th July 2009, 11:12

        Why do the likes of Mosley and Ecclestone think thay can get away with saying anything they like? I tell you why…. because they always do get away with it.

        haha, again you hit the nail on the head. I couldn’t agree more.

        And the only way of doing that is to give them the middle finger and walk away to create a new Grand Prix series.

        I believe that is true. I am just so afraid that FOTA and the breakaway series is never going to happen. Max and Bernie will continue to manipulate them and everyone else because, for the life of me I DO NOT understand how, they continue to do so comfortably. And everyone who could be in charge to remove them from power supports them.

        Apology should not be accepted.

        As sad as it sounds, even if we want to accept the apology, how do we do it? ” Oh, no worries Bernie” !? …. what!? that will not make any difference, he is still going to remain in power with his long time mutual lover Max..

        • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 11:43

          Well maksutov I hate to say it being a fan of F1 for a long time but if things do not improve dramatically, like a giant raft of changes in F1 in the next 2 to 3 years then i WILL give them my middle finger and walk away.

          I’m sick of it all. Apart from the odd spark there is not that much great racing anymore. And who’s fault is that?????

          Well it’s NOT the fans that’s for sure.
          We are the ones who get the **** end of the stick at every turn.

          The trouble is the FIA took F1 down the wrong road at the beginning of the 90’s. And to correct that mistake then F1 needs to remove quite a lot of the changes that have happened in that time. Too many to mention. I see the only way to do that is to start again. Even if you get rid of Max, get rid of Bernie and get rid of most of the FIA establishment. You are still stuck with bad regulations, bad decisions made by stewards and bad decisions by WMSC. Still stuck with bad circuits or missing circuits. Missing countries for that matter. And of course bad cars. The teams do their best within the regulations. But everything needs completely re-writing so we can get back to better looking cars, better racing cars and drivers who can really race and overtake. Yes it would be way too expensive to get the circuits changed back to the less neutred tracks they used to be, but surely the regulations for the cars can be made so that they can run better on these tracks. Stop making rules and regs predominantly for safety. Yes safety is an issue, but it should not be the be all and end all of car design and race structure. Motorsport is inherently dangerous. I just say let the drivers race. Give them the tools to do the job and they’ll deliver.

          Oh and get rid of all the old farts on the podium celebrations and let’s have some dolly birds in bikini’s giving out the prizes.

          Wow!!! i waffled a bit there when i didn’t mean to.

          Never mind i am an OLD MAN!!! i can say what i like. lol

          • dsob said on 7th July 2009, 16:03

            I read that twice. Tried to think of a better way to say it, and couldn’t.

            Well done, scunny. Well said.

            Hmm…except for that “old farts” crack. I resemble that remark! :)

            And if you are that well-spoken each time you waffle, well then, waffle away, ma friend.

          • scunnyman said on 7th July 2009, 16:38

            Well dsob do you NOT want to see bikini clad girls on the podium then?

          • Maksutov said on 7th July 2009, 17:55

            Wow!!! i waffled a bit there when i didn’t mean to.

            Never mind i am an OLD MAN!!! i can say what i like. lol

            haha.. well I enjoy your views, so its all good lol :)

            And to correct that mistake then F1 needs to remove quite a lot of the changes that have happened in that time. Too many to mention. I see the only way to do that is to start again.

            I would like nothing more but to see that happen. I am not sure what FOTA is planning now but at this stage i would settle for anything if only the removal of Max and Bernie…, and that would be a HUGE step forward. As it is, at the moment we have nothing..

            Yes safety is an issue, but it should not be the be all and end all of car design and race structure. Motorsport is inherently dangerous. I just say let the drivers race. Give them the tools to do the job and they’ll deliver.

            Exactly, I think enough has been done on safety for now, lets see if we can improve the excitement and the racing. The technical rules need to be reevaluated and fixed, and hopefully made so that the cars could take a little punch without for example, the wings disintegrating into million pieces when the cars touch. This would enable closer wheel to wheel racing and would allow drivers to take that extra risk. As it is now, cars are unable to overtake, it is like watching a computerized game to which to the end result known.

            Oh and get rid of all the old farts on the podium celebrations and let’s have some dolly birds in bikini’s giving out the prizes.

            haha.. that would be nice

          • Wesley said on 7th July 2009, 21:58

            I want bikini clad dolly birds on the podium!

  14. verasaki said on 6th July 2009, 23:59

    “Most of my mates are Jewish people, I spoke to two or three very prominent people today, Jewish people. One of them said to me, ‘Bernie, you’re more Jewish than all of my friends’.

    The man is seriously clueless.

    • Leaf said on 7th July 2009, 0:35

      Yes indeed Verasaki. This man is clueless. I refer back to the post Keith put in referencing a columnest in the Times referring to Bernies comments as, “insouciance of the insanely rich.” Yes, the man is totally out of touch with reality and the real world.

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