Red Bull’s Helmut Marko says “Webber should have let Vettel pass” (Video)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Marko (right) believes Webber should have moved over for Vettel
Marko (right) believes Webber should have moved over for Vettel

Red Bull motorsport consultant Helmut Marko has reiterated his belief that Mark Webber was solely to blame for his collision with Sebastian Vettel which put both cars out of the lead of the Turkish Grand Prix.

Speaking to Speed TV Marko said:

Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower, and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton. So if he would have stayed behind Mark, he would have been overtaken. So he had to do something. And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.
Helmut Marko

Update: Red Bull have put out a video in which Mark Webber discusses the crash. See below.

Marko added that Vettel, who now trails Webber by 15 points in the drivers’ championship, had been “unlucky” not to score again:

It?s unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is. He showed so much speed, and if you have all these incidents it?s unbelievable how strong his morale and commitment still is. To make points in this new points system is the most important thing. And now Vettel has two zeroes.
Helmut Marko

Red Bull have come under criticism for their support of Vettel in the immediate aftermath of the crash. Team boss Christian Horner also said Webber should not have forced Vettel onto the dirty part of the track.

Most people outside the team appear to blame Vettel for the collision – including 74% in a poll of over 4,000 fans conducted by F1 Fanatic.

Webber discusses the collision rather cagily in this video for Red Bull. He said:

Unfortunately, Sebastien tried a move. For both of us, in the end, it didn’t work out for both of us and we made contact. And it’s a real shame for the team, obviously, because we lost a good opportunity to win the race. One of us could have won it and in the end we only got one third place.
Mark Webber

Vettel and Webber collide

Image (C) Red Bull/Getty images

372 comments on “Red Bull’s Helmut Marko says “Webber should have let Vettel pass” (Video)”

  1. WHAT A COUPLE of *******…
    Their main concern is that Vettel is a Red Bull kid (and marketing puppy), and WEbber isn’t.
    Vettel made a stupid move on the dirty side of the track and moved right in the worst possible moment. Webber just hold his line…what is the right thing to do when you’re leading the race…and WC.
    Marko and Horner cannot stand the fact that Mark is their No.1 driver at the moment.
    And Vettel sure overheard the famous Webber’s “Britney’s in the wall mate!” antics in Williams.
    What a stupid young man…
    Go Aussie!

    1. we all saw it, it was mostly if not all vettel’s fault. RBR PR is just ridiculous. if they don’t want to be harsh on vettel for whatever reason, blame both of them. but there is absolutely no way that could be considered entirely webber’s fault. and i don’t think they understand the point of racing if that is their true stance (that webber should have let him through).

      i don’t think they believe what they’re saying, they just want to preserve vettel’s image. now vettel just looks like a child who’s misbehaved and won’t take any responsibility for his actions and his mum gives him a lolly.

      1. … I hate to play the role of the devil… but isn’t it true that Vettel had his car ahead of Marks? and isn’t it true that Vettel had the inside line?

        So I could argue that Mark should have yielded…

        But of course I won’t because it was a racing incident… s**t happens, and in F1, it happens often.

    2. I believe its more to do with nationality as well, Christian Horner always said how the team treats both drivers equally and blah blah blah! After today this is no longer apparent. This is just bs. I’ve had enough of RBR cr@p, its clearly Vettels fault and they blamed Webber and even the bosses supported Vettel. I was a RBR supporter at the start of the year after turkey its over for me. I’ll still go for Webber but no longer Vettel. The team let me down as a supporter.

      1. and why hasn’t vettel at the very least apologised for his ‘retard’ hand motions? or the team reprimanded him? this is just the most unprofessional handling of the situation from vettel, marko and christian. i’m just glad webber’s showing some maturity and restraint. he must be absolutely fuming.

        1. They did exactly the opposite by consoling him at the pit wall.

          Vettel is RedBull’s child and their attitude reminded me of spoiling children by giving them a pat on the back for doing something wrong, rather than scolding them for being in the wrong.

          Way to go RedBull!

          1. Redbull – The racist parent of a spoilt child?
            sounds fairly well spot on – I had to google Helmut Marko as i was convinced he must have been German (not but close)
            And the ‘Retard hand’ – is Vettel a schoolboy or a professional?

    3. By the way I’m suggesting that people let their feelings known on the RBR website;
      here is your opportunity:

      http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Turkish-Grand-Prix–Not-A-Result-To-Savour-021242854675153

      1. Thanks for the link i gave it to them. At least they should have Vettel apologizing for his antics after the race, if not for the crash he caused with his move.

        1. This may just see Webber move to Ferrari next year.

      2. I can only hope that Mark Webber reads that too.

      3. cheers for the link I let them know how disgusted I was…awful behavior I hope they apologise to Webber.

      4. (What I wrote on the site thanks for the link)

        I feel that Vettel is Red Bulls darling. I had respect for you guys until I saw the way you are spoiling Vettel. Mark Webber was clearly holding his line and was in the right.
        You say you give both drivers equal treatment. But the way Christian and Marko both spoke against Mark clearly shows the teams preference for Vettel. I am absolutely disgusted by Red Bull racing and the way you treated Mark Webber. Mark deserves better. He is a top driver who stayed professional when Vettel came on the inside and defended his position well.
        I think Christian Horner, Marko and Sebastien Vettel all expected Mark to move to one side and let Vettel take victory and quite possibly the championship. I have lost respect both for Christian Horner and Red Bull Racing. The incident was 100% Vettel’s fault. Mark Webber deserves better and I suggest he goes to Ferrari next season. I would not be surprised if Red Bull lose their fan support after this. I will definitely support Webber but not Vettel. Vettel cannot overtake. So I suggest he goes back to Karting. Shame on you Christian Horner and Red Bull Racing.

      5. Thanks, I posted my displeasure with Vettel’s move on Mark. I was never an RBR fan but after Lewis & Jensen my vote always went to our Australian cousin!!

      6. Done and done, and beleive me I didn’t mince my words.

      7. Here’s what I posted:

        Mark down another vote in support of Mark. Red Bull management has performed the remarkable feat of making Sebastian’s on-track faux pas look relatively minor. His lapse in judgment can at least be partially excused by red mist (if not Red Bull); Mr. Horner and Mr. Marko should know better.

    4. Breza,

      What is this famous momment of “Britney’s in the wall mate!” about?

      Any linky to a video or article?

      Thanks

      1. I think he’s referring to the 2006 Brizillian GP incident when Rosberg ran into the back of (his then teamate) Webber’s car in turn 4 on the first lap. Rosberg damaged his node cone and front win while Webber had a damaged defuser and rear wing. They both raced each other back to the pits so as to be the first one to get serviced, but becuase Rosberg’s damage was easier to fix, the team orders were “Priority Nico”. At one point while they were running side by side as Rosberg attempts to overtake on the dirty side, Rosberg (missing front wing) loses it and ends up in the wall. A few moments later the team once again re-interates “Prioirty Nico, repeat prioirty Nico” to which Webber replies with something like “Don’t think so, mate. Britney’s in the wall!”.

        1. haha, thats awesome.

        2. Webber has always had a lot of respect for Rosberg’s speed

          but

          pretty
          pretty
          pretty
          G-E-R-M-A-N-S

          get their comeupance.

      1. Yeah, I do see a difference. A massive one. Webber was on a straight (not yet at turn in for a corner) and kept going straight, yet Vettel steered into the side of him (moving in the opposite direction to the forthcoming turn). Schumacher, on the other hand, was on the outside of Villeneuve going into a corner and turned in on Villeneuve at the apex, thereby causing the collision. Not the same at all by a long shot.

      2. That pic is clear that Webber was to far to the left . Vetta was past the center

        1. Vettle had enough track space to take the corner if he slowed down – he could have slowed (yes he would have lost the lead).

          Instead Vettle swerved to the right and hit Webber for no real reason.

          You can’t get part way past a car and then expect them to completely move out of your way, they are only required to give enough space to stay on the track – which Webber did do.

          1. argh Vettel typos

          2. You could turn this around and say Webber had more than 4 times enough space and Vettel needed only to give him one, and the fact that he was in front and on the right side for the corner it makes more sense.

          3. Vettel moved to the right into Webber’s car, so it’s Vettel to blame, loooking at the TV picture.
            But, please check this:
            looking repeatedly at other TV pictures, from Vettel’s cockpit, I did see Vettel’s hands steering left to overtake, but I did n o t see his hands steering right, although it looks from outside as a strong move to the right. Could it be a moment of car instability? And Vettel never mentions he went right.

          4. No Ivan he dit turn right but he dit it very gently and only as they touched it looked as he turned violently because his car turned as they touched. But that is not the issue. The problem is Webber did not retrieve back to the racing line, if you look at MSC vs BUT or BUT vs HAM fight you will see that the car on the outside always goes back to the racing line, and HAM vs BUT going on the pit straight was a good example because they were right against the pit wall but as they arrived at the corner they were back on the outside and that is what everybody does unless they want it to end in tears.

    5. I agree fully, if you watch the camera view from Vettel’s onboard camera it look as if he actually rammed Mark. You can see his head even moving to the right before the contact as he turned his steering wheel.
      Go Aussie I say!

    6. im not australian or red bull fan but i got to say both pushed to far in the end vet didnt end the race cause he was the more guilty of the 2

    7. Maybe I’m just a bit slow at the moment, but can someone tell me what this “Britney’s in the wall mate!” thing is all about? Thanks in advance!

        1. i hadnt heard that story before.
          “britneys in the wall” bloddy hlarious.
          i would like to hear it said again when seb does the same thing. he is much more of a britney than nico.

    8. Vettel was doing all right. Why wont he pass through the dirty side.Is it written anywhere that a car could not pass through the dirty side. He was racing hard and agressively. Actually u people like racing to be boring. Vettel had the inside line, then the corner goes right so obviously he have to go a bit right and focus on his braking point. why will he brake at a dirty point. Webber knew he was slow but the old aussie deliberately was driving in his own straight way.He forgot that Vettel was his team mate. Dont talk rubbish. What Red Bull market kid?? He won with a Torro Rosso you maniac. And he is better than Webber.

      1. Brake Bias
        3rd June 2010, 5:48

        @vettel, where is written the the driver being overtaken has to yield the position? That’s called racing. Nobody is calling for racing to be boring, but likewise nobody is interested in stupid driving resulting in accidents. At no point in time was Vettel fully clear of Webber when Vettel swung quickly to the right. Go back & read what Webber had to say. He did not expect Vettel to move so aggressively at that point. Vettel was playing chicken with a seasoned driver & got himself plucked. Maybe he needs to learn a little from this incident.

        1. “And he is better than Webber”

          Yer thats why his way above him in the championship, oh what a second no he isn’t.

  2. Marko and Horner are completely delusional!
    EVERYONE else knows the crash was Vettel’s fault and not Webber’s

    1. No one is delusional. From a teams perspective they want each team mate to give each other space, which is fair enough the points mean more to the team whoever wins it would still be 1-2.

      So from thier point of view Webber was at fault for not giving room. From a drivers perspective Vettels mistake if it was any other drive then team mate no one would care we would simply write it up as Vettels rookie error.

      1. But he ‘did’ give enough room. That’s the point.

        But he was also racing the guy. I just cannot understand this point of view but each to their own I guess. Should Massa have just let Alonso through on many occasions this season then?

        Mark wants to win the Formula One World Championship – his dream since a small boy and now he finally has a chance – probably his last. Why should the guy ‘move over?’

        By the way, wasn’t it a little strange to ask Marj to turn his engine down then, and not later in the race? It clearly wasn’t critical as seen from his fast laps at the end of the race.

      2. When Horner says “not giving enough space”, they surely mean Webber didn’t roll out the red carpet for Vettel to waltz down on.

        Seriously he had more than a car width of space, what they complain about is that webber didn’t give in meekly. Why should he.

        1. Yes, Marko said it clearly, the only mistake was Mark not being told or refusing to do so. It was a clear team order!

      3. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 9:43

        Not Helmut’s view at all – Helmut said that Mark “should have let” Vettel through. He’s just blaming Mark when he should be blaming himself and Vettel. Mark maybe should have given more room, but Vettel caused the accident, therefore it was entirely Vettel’s fault.

        What kind of team is that? Mark will be furious. I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.

        1. “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”

          +1

        2. “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”

          +426

          1. hah i’ll second that, or 427th that!

          2. Jose Arellano
            1st June 2010, 18:48

            “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”

            + 99999!

          3. That’s over 9000!

      4. Brake Bias
        3rd June 2010, 5:58

        @CapeFear, I must be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the FIA had outlawed these sort of “team orders” to achieve contrived results.

    2. Prisoner Monkeys
      1st June 2010, 9:40

      Marko and Horner are completely delusional!

      And everyone in this thread is completely over-reacting.

      1. What you are seeing here PM is public opinion… and RBR have most definitely seriously shot themselves in the foot with this one.

        Horner is merrily painting away with the brush, while Marko is holding the bucket of Tar.

        1. Good call PM. F1Droid; here’s some public opinion. Who cares what the public thinks when its all rubbish?

          -“shot themselves in the foot”
          What are you talking about.. public opinion? Oh, I’m sure that sales for Red Bull cars will drop dramatically… oh wait, they don’t make those. Well, then surely Vodka/Red Bull drinks will falter here in the States… oh wait, people love alcohol and staying up late to drink alcohol.

          They made an exciting race that either would have ended with a great pass or a racing incident- the latter occurring it was largely the best dry race of the year.

          FACE!

      2. Agree with Prisoner Monkeys.

        It was a racing incident and the team weren’t quick enough to send a “coded” message to Webber.

        If they wanted a 1-2, Webber should have told indirectly to let Vettel through. Webber was slow as he was saving fuel. Vettel should gone through, taken the win, while Webber should have held up Lewis and taken 2nd…thats team work!

        Its simple logic! No one is siding Vettel or Webber…the blame lies with the team management, they’re the one who f$%ked this up

        1. but why shouldn’t vettel hold up hamilton and let webber win?

          1. Exactly, this is RACING!!! There is no number 1 driver in the team at this moment and Webber was leading. Vettel should have been holding the pack up and ensured the 1-2 that way.

            There are other ways they are giving an advantage to Webber, allowing him to run quali behind Webber even though it was Webber’s turn to start last and also allowing Vettel to pit before Webber even though Webber was in the lead and should be given preference.

          2. Typo… Vettel getting the advantage.

        2. If they wanted a 1-2 the simple logic would have been to keep things as they were with Webber in 1st and Vettel in 2nd, and use Vettel to fend off Hamilton, and let the two McLaren’s fight each other for third. Instead what Red Bull attempted to do was slide Webber who was the race leader back to second to fend off Hamilton in third place and hand the lead to Vettel on a silver platter. What sort of logic is that? It isn’t. At best it’s screwed strategy, at worse it’s favouritism.

          1. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 14:29

            Look at it this way:

            Helmut said two things:
            1: Vettel was faster than Webber
            2: If Vettel didn’t pass Webber, he’d get passed by Hamilton.

            So therefore, one can assume if Vettel got past Webber, Hamilton would have passed Webber.

            Therefore it would be, at best, a 1-3, if not a 1-4, which, “oddly” enough would give Sebastien an even bigger advantage in the championship.

            They could make a movie out of this.

          2. Helmut Marko’s whole argument is a blatant lie.

            Hamilton wasn’t putting pressure on Vettel and Webber wasn’t gowing slower and slower.

            In reality Vettel suddenly started going 3 tenths a lap faster for the last 3 laps. He was gaining on Webber and getting away from Hamilton.

            I guess he thinks we are so darn stupid that we cannot find the timesheets on the FIA website.

        3. The fact that Red Bull is using team orders is what is getting people riled up.

          1. Jose Arellano
            1st June 2010, 18:52

            the same situation happened with alonso in australia and he just kept hamilton at bay

          2. How so and what year was that?

      3. I think you’re confusing the reaction to the crash to the reaction to how RBR handled it. Had they just left the crash at what it was – an honest mistake by Vettel, then the reaction would be nowhere near as severe as this.

        But RBR chose to publicly support Vettel and blame Mark, flying completely in the face of overwhelming opinion both inside and outside the paddock. The fans are just reacting to that by criticizing the team.

    3. Marko is a disgrace. Put simply, the ONLY people who do not put the majority of the blame on Vettel have a bias towards him. Any reasonable neutral observer would not blame Mark. Red Bull spend millions of dollars on their team for branding, and then F#*! it up by what is in effect discrimination in the workplace, which in any normal arena would violate equal employment opportunity regulations.

      I will never buy a can of Red Bull again. If Webber had signed a contract to be number 2 this would be different. But he was leading the race, had just won the previous two races start to finish, had led every single lap of the Turkish race after qualifying on pole. In the circumstances, to turn down his engine to “save fuel” is a revolting decision.

      I do not believe “save fuel” for a second. Mark drove le mans cars, there are many ways to save fuel for the lap he was supposedly over on consumption. You could roll out of the throttle earlier at the end of straights, use a higher gear in corners where it is not possible to overtake. That could have been done to save fuel, whilst still allowing Webber to blast down the back straight at full speed. I do not believe this “save fuel” scenario! It is code for team orders, pure and simple!!

      1. Vettel apprently claimed his car “lost it” under breaking and that pulled him to the right, which is plausible considering that the car would have been cleaner on one side. So there is an argument that webber should have given more space but no matter how you justify it at most the blame was 50-50.

        1. vettel didn’t lose it. you can see from the on board he steers right. as does webber in fact to give vettel space. vettel just used more than was there. just a critical error of judgement on vettel’s behalf

        2. The crash occured well before the braking zone. Look at the video. Vettel was trying to position himself better FOR the braking zone. Webber knew that and was playing his card of holding his line. Vettel chose the dirty side and knew he would struggle to stop. Webber also knew this, the exact reason he kept him pinned there. But Vettel initiated the move to the inside and initiated the move to the right to bully Webber. Therefore the fault is more on Vettels side. Webber is not blameless, but this is now more about the management position than the crash.

          1. I agree with almost everything you’ve said, saves me writing it again. I think the fault is Vettel’s 100% for one simple reason; he’s the one overtaking therefore he has to make the manouvre

          2. Exactly. Plus this is not the first time he has done this and then denied all wrong doing. Remember a certain pit incident when Hamilton and Vettel were alongside, Again an incident where both drivers refused to give way but vettel turned right to try to drive hamilton into the pit equipment (bearing in mind Vettel had practically a cars width on his left hand side).

            Also I have heard that Hamilton was complaining to webber that vettel had also steared towards him during the Turkey race. If it took that crash to teach him a lesson then so be it as I do think Vettel is a good driver, but he needed to be brought down a peg or two. However I am afraid red bulls inexplicable siding with him will just make things worse.

        3. bernification
          1st June 2010, 10:44

          Which may be true had he started braking, but he hadn’t.

      2. Ted Kravitz during the Red Button showed us how Vettel was suddenly quicker than Webber on lap 36 for 3 laps. If this “fuel save” was true, how was Vettel all of a sudden quicker than Webber for 3 laps? Horner said Vettel had 1 more lap of optimum fuel usage, not 3. Hmm……

        1. He had one more lap left, ie. turn 12 was the last overtaking opportunity before he had to switch into fuel save mode at the end of that lap.
          Hence SV being being so desperate to pass because it was his last real chance to do so unless Mark made a mistake.

      3. If he really had to save fuel he wouldn’t have been able to do a pit in-out, a fastest lap and fight with Schumacher with damaged aero / board and a complete warmdown lap.

        If he turns down though, the team sees it, he expects the team to put in a hold station or give him the call to get back on it to save Seb from Hamilton. The team weren’t talking and tried to trap him …. all the process going through his mind as he sees Seb having his run. Then he says give him enough room to hang himself and thinking I’ll get back and he can be in Hamilton’s clutches.

        Not many saying that Webber isn’t a great racer now. Hard but fair.

      4. For Simon,

        Tears and a tiny violin.

  3. That’s a pretty clear cut favoritism statement there…

  4. HounslowBusGarage
    1st June 2010, 9:07

    “It’s unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is.”
    Is it? On the face of it, Vettel doesn’t look terribly skilled at overtaking.

    1. Doesn’t have much of a record for passing people, does he? A few dominant wins and awesome speed in the wet, but I don’t remember any fighting ones.

      Not the first time he’s smacked into Webber either, remember that wet race behind the safety car…

      1. +1

        This isn’t the first time Vettel has hit Webber, I’m sure that it will be mentioned as well.

      2. Really hate to bang out an “I told you so” BUT I DID, I KEPT ON SAYING THIS. lol, sorry, self congratulation is ugly.

        Still Vettle is not a fighter, he is now, not a fighter under preassure, resulting in misguided agression towards his teamate an other drivers, Hamilton for instance is taking a lot of it, maybe because of his reputation (China+Istanbul) and, I almost think his doing it lest he be found out, as not the full package and definatley not the superstar he’s painted as.

  5. Maybe so Helmut, but that still doesn’t change the fact that Vettel drove into Mark.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 9:45

      Hear hear! Just don’t understand why Red Bull are at such pains to deny it.

      1. Bigbadderboom
        1st June 2010, 11:52

        Deflecting the blame, I think its more a case of defending Vettel than blaming Mark. I think they are aware that Vettels image is becoming slightly tarnished with his unforced errors and car breaking activities. And the fact is Vettel has a far longer career left, I think Red Bull are just sticking with their man, and probably not fully aware of how biased they sound.

        1. But it would look a LOT better with his image, if he was in the video instead of Mark and apologizes to his team for a badly effected move and to Mark for his antics after getting out of the car.
          That would make him be seen as a fair guy who owns up to his mistakes.

          Button did apologize to Hamilton about the situation.

          1. I dont see what Button had to apologise to Hamilton for. Whats he gonna say “Im sorry I raced you.”?.

            If it was Hamilton in that situation he would have done the same, and infact would have been really proud of himself too.

  6. Mark Webber *did* let Vettel past.
    He didn’t make it easy for him, but he didn’t stop the move either.
    Vettel made a hash of it.

    For Marko to come out in public and blame Webber for it is bad management in the extreme. With DC on board, Red Bull had the perfect man to advise them how to deal with things – but evidently didn’t use him.

    Never mind what all the fans say in polls on the internet – every single professional in the paddock that was on the BBC said the same thing – The team had every right to be annoyed, but that they would have to manage the situation properly unless they wanted things to implode and destroy their season. In fact, Vettel was far more professional, circumspect and vague in his post-race comments than the team management themselves. He may have made heat of the moment gestures getting out of the car, but that’s acceptable. Red Bull are beyond “shooting themselves in the foot” with this one, it’s a total disaster.

    The biggest story of ineptitude of the whole thing however, is this: Brundle, DC, Ted, EJ had a long conversation about how much they’d want to be a fly on the pitwall when Vettel came out, and assumed he wouldn’t. There was a massive media riot outside the motorhome trying to get his first interview. Then he appeared on the pitwall, and talked to his engineers, and the BBC camera was right there…….

    ….. and Legard talked over it. About nothing. Brundle must be on the verge of strangling the guy.

    1. Sush Meerkat
      1st June 2010, 9:40

      Well its Martin Brundle’s birthday today, we should send him some Gaffer Tape.

      1. “Well its Martin Brundle’s birthday today, we should send him some Gaffer Tape.”

        LOL!!

    2. “and Legard talked over it. About nothing. Brundle must be on the verge of strangling the guy.”

      Johnathan Legard is an idiot, and does not deserve to be commentating on this sport at this level. Maybe he should do post race-analysis for CBEEBIES, but certainly should not be alongside Martin Brundle (one of the most clued-up ex-F1 drivers of all time) and DC/EJ.

      1. bernification
        1st June 2010, 10:47

        And for god sake can he stop talking about a ‘front nose’!

        What, you have one on the back of your head too. (Insert comment about being two faced here).

      2. yeh, why did he keep saying this was mclaren’s first chance at victory in turkey and then when they won, this is their first victory in turkey. if i’m not mistaken, kimi won the first race there in 2005…

        1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So he it was! :-D

        2. I was frustrated at him all weekend for constantly saying that.

    3. my thoughts exactly about ledgard, the p country hick,in future “jonathon” learn when to stay quiet.was inexcusable for a so called profesional commentator to do that,get rid and replace him.

      1. The problem with Legard is that he was a radio commentator, and still feels a need to talk constantly as though we can’t see what’s happening and therefore haven’t a clue unless he describes it. He hasn’t learned when to shut up. He also misses things that we _do_ see, and mis-identifies drivers as he comments.
        Can someone call ITV and get James Allen back?

        1. ConcedoNulli
          1st June 2010, 19:03

          No not James Allen. If Legard is to be replaced make it David Croft

          1. On the F1 forum (red button) they’re making use of Mr Davidson, I wonder if they’re thinking of doing a 2 ex driver commentator pair? Having said that the radio commentary will be all the poorer if that were the case.

  7. Sounds much like team orders then, why would Mark just let Vettel through when he is fighting for the lead of the race and the lead of the World Drivers Championship! So in races to come whenever Webber sees Vettel behind him he is supposed to let him through, what a load of rubbish. RBR needs to take a good hard look at themselves and can be sure that there are so many more F1 fans out there that would rather see Webber take the trophy from that stroppy little brat.

  8. The ridiculous thing is is that once Vettel was clearly alongside, Webber did nothing more to stop him – it’s Vettel who clearly turned into Webber. The spin they’re putting on this is ridiculous. Webber must feel all kinds of loyalty to his team right about now.

  9. The Nude Wizard
    1st June 2010, 9:35

    Also i have a conspiracy theory for you;

    There have been rumours of Mark going to Ferrari, and further the deals already done for 2 years, This makes sense to me as Webber has a lot of Red Bull/Newey info rolling around in his noggin Ferrari would love to know as they’re not finding the answers they need atm performance wise.

    If Mark were to win the WDC, he takes #1 with him to Ferrari, i cant imagine Red Bull would be too happy about this and them favouring Vettel makes a lot more sense than just the age old “golden haired boy” accusations.

    Of course none of this is based on any facts, just from my own musings.

    1. I have another conspiracy theory.

      From what I can gather Vettel doesn’t have an official manager like most other drivers do.

      Therefore is it possible given that Vettel doesn’t have an official manager that Marko is unofficially filling the void? He has officially managed other drivers in the past.

      If he is unofficially filling the management void it would go someway towards explaining why Marko blames Webber when pretty everyone else can agree that Vettel was at fault.

      This is just my personal theory.

      1. Marko was head of the Red Bull young driver development program, and his “star” graduate is Vettel.

      2. The Nude Wizard
        1st June 2010, 10:58

        That is interesting, i didnt know that, and may explain Markos motivation in one. But it doesnt explain why Horner insinuated blame in his first interview after the race without going that far after the race, and in his subsesquent interview during the BBC Forum going a little further and blaming Mark outright.

        James Allen also recounts a story on his website yesterday of Horner and Markos in serious discussions after Webbers previous win, looking less than pleased they had just won a GP. And Webbers wife also making comments along those lines

        I think much of his blog post on the matter and all the other little pieces of info and rumour leaking out recently lend themselves to something just a little more.. Saucy, lets say ;)

    2. As much as I hate to spread conspiracy theories, your theory does make a _lot_ of sense.

  10. Marko is a disgrace. Put simply, the ONLY people who do not put the majority of the blame on Vettel have a bias towards him. Any reasonable neutral observer would not blame Mark. Red Bull spend millions of dollars on their team for branding, and then F#*! it up by what is in effect discrimination in the workplace, which in any normal arena would violate equal employment opportunity regulations.

    I will never buy a can of Red Bull again. If Webber had signed a contract to be number 2 this would be different. But he was leading the race, had just one the previous two races start to finish, had led every single lap of the Turkish race after qualifying on pole. In the circumstances, to turn down his engine to “save fuel” is a revolting decision.

    I do not believe “save fuel” for a second. Mark drove le mans cars, there are many ways to save fuel for the lap he was supposedly over on consumption. You could roll out of the throttle earlier at the end of straights, use a higher gear in corners where it is not possible to overtake. That could have been done to save fuel, whilst still allowing Webber to blast down the back straight at full speed. I do not believe this “save fuel” scenario! It is code for team orders, pure and simple!!

    1. Marko had a curtailled driving career and is but a footnote in history (wiki him). He is trying to live out his unfullfilled driving ambitions through Vettel. Put an icing of pan german nationalism over it and then sprinkle it with the fact that Marko sees Vettel as the cherry of his young drivers programme and Mark as a mutt that clawed his way to the seat and you have the whole cake. Plenty bad formula in there.

  11. I am simply flabbergasted by the fact that RBR don’t seem to have a spin doctor or head of PR on board that tells the management to SHUT the hell UP about their feelings about the accident when talking to the press. They could and should have handled this like every other team that has been in such a situation before: say that they are extremely disappointed about the result and will talk to the drivers about what happened on the track. That should have been all! Any digging by journalists about who’s fault it was could have been met with: “We will look at the data and solve the problem within the team.” All they have done now is give everybody something to fuss over by showing a weak spot.
    Of course, we cannot analyse the car data, do not know the RBR race plan and haven’t heard the board radio of either driver. For all we know RBR might have had a sound reason for wanting their drivers to swap positions, but it looked bad to the outsider and they’ve only managed to make it worse. I hope this doesn’t start to drive a wedge between the team mates.

  12. “Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower, and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton.”

    Wow. Ridiculous.

  13. Mark Webber is a man , while Vettel is still a boy. So Webber will have got over it already , but then he must move to a new team next year so he can have support and will win a WDC.

  14. MouseNightshirt
    1st June 2010, 9:50

    Here’s a question. Will Mark now want to stay with Red Bull after this debacle. Everyone was all whistling along to the one year contract before, but Mark may want a way out after this.

    Stefano Domenicalli said he was keeping Massa, but if he was going to get rid of him, I think he’d rather have Kubica. So Mark to Renault in that case? Renault would absolutely love to have him. Red Bull chassis knowledge to go along with the identical engine, would be a big coup.

    1. and he was a renault prodigy back in the day. that is to say he tested with them in 2003…

      1. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 14:31

        Good point.

        A small vindictive part of me wants Webber to win the WDC this year, then move to Renault, take whatever secrets he can remember in his head and then have Renault demolish RBR next year.

        But honestly, that would be so sweet on the tongue!

        …gotta stop this Mouse!

    2. The driver market among the top few teams doesn’t appear to have much room for change next year. Where could Webber go that would afford him another decent shot at the WDC? Even though I am at heart a McLaren fan, last weekends debacle leaves me kind of hoping that Webber can prevail THIS year, and rub Vettel’s (and Marko’s) nose in it! This could be his last chance if he doesn’t want to, or is not allowed to, carry on with Red Bull. Time will tell, of course, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      1st June 2010, 9:56

      Internet petitions don’t work. The only one that I know of was the one appealing to CBS to keep “Jericho” on the air … and then they cancelled it six months later.

      1. LOL but didn’t they also send boxes and boxes of nuts to the network.

  15. Prisoner Monkeys
    1st June 2010, 9:54

    I think everyone needs to take a minute here. Assuming Vettel was to blame for the accident, how exactly did the world fall apart? He caused the accident, and retired. Webber recovered and took third, which – given his speed relative to the McLarens – was about as much as he could hope for. How exactly has “justice” (or whatever you want to call it) been delivered unfaialy?

    1. PM, this isn’t about the final race result, and how Webber came out on top with the points…

      It’s completely 100% about RBR managements handling of the situation.

      1. Prisoner Monkeys
        1st June 2010, 10:14

        Just because they disagee with you means they’re automaticlly in the wrong?

        1. MouseNightshirt
          1st June 2010, 10:29

          They disagree with the general consensus, the evidence available to the fans (which may be very different to the evidence the team has, but is irrelevant because they haven’t shared that), and thus people are questioning their reasons for marking Mark for crucifixion.

          1. As MouseNightshirt says

          2. Prisoner Monkeys
            1st June 2010, 10:58

            They disagree with the general consensus

            Where is it written that they have to? The “general consensus” was estabilished within thirty seconds of the accident – Red Bull never had a chance to explain themselves, and so anything they say will always be taken the wrong way.

            the evidence available to the fans (which may be very different to the evidence the team has, but is irrelevant because they haven’t shared that)
            And where is it written that they are obligated to share their evidence?

          3. PM

            Where does it say we should “shut up and be quiet” if we feel strongly about a situation?

          4. @PM: How have Red Bull not had a chance to explain themselves? And if they haven’t yet been able to come to a full concluson, why go making statements that put Mark Webber at fault. From the evidence available it certainly appears Vettels fault, so Red Bull have two options after making these sort of statements: provide evidence as to why it was Webber’s fault or keep quiet and receive all the bad PR coming their way.

          5. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 14:33

            Mr Monkeys:

            1: It isn’t written they have to agree with it, they just don’t, therefore it’s being questioned.

            2: I’ve not said they should share it at all. What I’m saying is that it’s irrelevant to the fans _unless_ they decide to share it, at which point we’d be able to take it into consideration.

        2. well it’s very much like disciplining a child as a parent. if your child does something wrong, you make it clear to them that it’s unacceptable. you don’t pat them on the back and tell them it’s ok and that it was the other person’s fault. vettel needs to learn to take responsibility and stand on his own. how would you feel if you were mark? taken out of the lead by your team mate and then blamed for it. how could he not get a sense of bias?
          at least he’s shown the maturity to handle the situaion professionally

        3. PM – do you seriously belive that RedBull didn’t have an opportunity to explain themselves? I don’t think people are over-reacting at all. There’s nothing wrong with a team having a no.1 whom they favour, implicitly or implicitly – but what RedBull are doing here is basically mud-slinging at Webber in an attempt to take the blame for the accident off Vettel. And that’s a pretty crappy thing to do.

          1. *implicitly or explicitly*

        4. PM, try & take Mark Webber and your dislike of him (forgive me, but it doth have shades of tall poppy syndrome about it) out of the equation. Pretend it was another driver & team. Then after having done that, tell me if you still think ‘the team’ are justified with their carry on?

    2. It is the revelation of clear bias towards Vettel and the ramifications that may have for the rest of the year, not the crash itself. How is that difficult to understand??

    3. The Nude Wizard
      1st June 2010, 10:21

      hahaha

      “given his speed relative to the McLarens – was about as much as he could hope for.”

      Just gotta have a dig at Webber while you’re at it. He was leading the race, made it thought the pit stops. Being setup by your team and made to turn down your engine and passed in lieu of team orders which are illegal is one thing, but Webber was being given curry by Hamilton for a long time and as Webber said, he’d have never got past without me making a mistake and he’d know a little bit more than you I reckon ;)

      Marko said Seb needed to get past or he would be taken by Hamilton, his gap was steady the 7 laps previous to his overtake.

      An outright lie

      Horner said Vettel had 1 more litre of fuel than Webber at that point so could be on the high revs longer, I think i read here some place it takes about 3 litres per lap.. On top of that lap times would indicate Webber was forced to turn down his engine a couple of laps earlier, not one..

      Are you starting to get how what they say and the reality arent quite matching up here?

      That’s why people are a little annoyed, not just because Vettels a mong and stuck his car into his team mate.

      1. “Marko said Seb needed to get past or he would be taken by Hamilton, his gap was steady the 7 laps previous to his overtake.”

        well if webber can hold of hamilton for 30 odd laps but vettel can’t take 7 laps, this must be red bull’s way of admitting webber is simply a better driver than vettel.

    4. PM, it is always fun playing devil’s advocate but generally I live by Occam’s Razor. In this case the simplest fact is that Vettel turned in to Webber, Vettel was allowed to pit before Webber (even though the team is supposed to allow the leader the right to pit first), Vettel started quali in behind Webber (even though it was Webber’s turn, look at the post-quali press conference) and management is blaming Webber. Vettel also had extra opportunity to drive with new parts this weekend over Webber before they were added to his car.

      The world didn’t fall apart but the actions of Vettel cost the team points, Webber points and forced Vettel to retire. To imply it wasn’t his fault if he went over a bump and the car jumped right on the dirty line is plausible, not stating that and blaming Webber simply isn’t! The team is clearly favouring a driver over the other even though it has constantly stated it wouldn’t at this stage and they were free to race each other. It isn’t racing if one has to move out of the way of the other

      1. This isn’t the first time RBR have screwed Webber this season either. Melbourne pit stops strategy springs to mind.

    5. That is a great relieve, their plot with team orders back fired making it even harder for them to do it in the future with Mark ahead.

      McLaren drivers must be happy the fastest cars are fighting it out like this. Not to mention Alonso, who is still within reach because of all opportunities lost.
      Still a PR blunder, they should have made Vettel apologize for the way he acted after getting out of the car and admit he did lose the move, not Mark.

    6. Brake Bias
      2nd June 2010, 3:15

      PM, why was Webber able to reel off a succession of fastest laps after the accident and still finish the race if he was meant to be on fuel conserve as per the instruction from the pit lane? To me, this part of the saga needs to be investigated. Even in the laps leading up to Vettels idiotic move, both were comfortably ahead of the McLarens & had the reserve speed to counter any move by the McLarens ie turn the wick up again.

      What most people are aggrieved about is the line taken by the RBR management in their “protect vettel at all costs attitude” and also vettels immature hand signals (twice) indicating Webber was the driver at fault.

      But then again, you have previously stated that you are not a fan of Webber. I think you are suffering from the all to common Australian affliction of “tall poppy syndrome”

      1. Did Webber take on new tyres as well as a fresh nose? – I cannot fathom why the team wouldn’t do that during a pitstop for a new nose, in any event if he and they did add fresh tyres, that would certainly explain faster laptimes.

        1. The Nude Wizard
          2nd June 2010, 8:59

          Don’t you mean a new nose and fresh tyres? haha but yes, he did and you’re right it does explain the faster lap times.

        2. Brake Bias
          3rd June 2010, 6:18

          @ MarkC, Webber did indeed take on new tyres – but why before the accident was he told to tune down the engine to conserve fuel when afterwards he was told to turn it up & push hard at the McLarens. Very inconsistent instructions to the driver here. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I can’t equate how new tyres equals turning the motor up.

  16. Seb screwed a 1-2 for the team. Some team player.

    Give a place away, what a load of rubbish. Mark has already shown this season that he will give up a place to preserve his car. Seb tried it on and should be called for what he is, a hot-head through a red mist. Telling Seb that he was right will only create more problems further down the line.

  17. RBR are really shooting themselves in the foot with this. Screencaps have clearly shown that Vettel chose to go down that side, he wasn’t “forced” at all. Webber left room, if he had moved over more he would have been conceeding the place without any fight, and as Brundle pointed out, he can’t do that if he wants to fight for the title. So Vettel is allowed to overtake, but Webber isn’t allowed to defend? Do they wonder why they’re now being accused of bias?

    And none of what Marko says changes the fact that his “unlucky” protege was the one who caused the crash. He could be leading the championship now if he hadn’t swerved right, so my heart doesn’t exactly bleed for him.

    The laptime charts really don’t back up that Vettel was under pressure of Lewis, and as for “Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower”…um, would that have anything to do with a turned down engine that he’s conveniently not mentioned? They seem to have problems getting their story straight over that one…

  18. “Mark for whatever reason was slower.”

    Read… we told him to turn his engine down, while simultaneously telling Vettel to turn his up.

    “And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.”

    Read… team manipulating the results in favour of their protegy.

    “Team boss Christian Horner also said Webber should not have forced Vettel onto the dirty part of the track.”

    Actually, Christian, Mark did *not* force Vettel onto the dirty side of the track… Mark, gave your lovely Sebastian a choice, and he *chose* the dirty inside line rather than the clean outside line that Button used to pass Hamilton. Once there, Mark was very professional and supplied him enough room.

    1. 100% agree F1droid. Well summed up!

    2. button also passed schumacher on the outside there early in the race, very good point. vettel made 2 wrong decisions. the line and then the right turn

    3. well put, Team orders are no longer allowed since an infamous race in Austria (say no more). Mark Webber knows this and he’s probably smart enough to play the political game. They can say whatever they like but they can’t say that they told Mark to let Seb past.

      In that case Mark already knows who’s the team favourite, could that be the motivation behind his great form of late?

  19. This clearly shows the inexperience of the Red Bull Management.

    Helmut Marko was a failure as an F1 driver, and has never done anything substantial in F1, other than running a driver training program ,to be connected with a top tier F1 racing team.

    Christian Horner stepped up from managing GP2 teams to Red Bull, and this is his first time managing a team that is the favourite to win the title in F1. Other than having that stupid smug smile on his face, Christian clearly doesn’t have anything that a top team manager should have.

    Clearly these two morons have no idea on how to handle the press at the highest level of motorsport. These statements should never have been made public, and all the issues should have been thrashed out before the media was involved.

    However, I think Mark should not give a crap about what they have to say about him, and just race his heart out to get the title this year. I think it will be a good idea for Mark to look at other teams such as Ferrari, etc.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 10:38

      “Christian clearly doesn’t have anything that a top team manager should have.”

      As much as I’m against the smearing of Webber by Red Bull, that point is simply not true. Red Bull is where it is today because of Christian managing to get a hold of Newey and build an efficient, driven team.

      What he doesn’t have experience of yet is being manager of a front running F1 team undergoing scrutiny. Last year, all the attention was on Brawn, now this year the limelight is on him, he can’t deal with it.

      1. I actually think that Horner is doing a great job. I also don’t think that Horner is biased towards either driver.

        I believe that the root cause of the perceived injustices in the RBR team stem from the aforementioned Marko. He’s been in charge of a lot of Mateschitz’s money for the young driver programme. I’m sure Mr Mateschitz is more than happy to put money into the team, but a driver programme is a whole different kettle of fish. Therefore if Marko’s grand plan and star pupil is not finishing as highly as an older driver who came with a batch of Renault engines, he is going to be going for Marko’s head (and Horner and any other high-heid-yin who are unlucky enough to be caught in the firing line).

        As I’ve said previously, Horner and Webber are in cahoots for their MW-Arden GP3 team, so I think that Horner is playing the “Severus Snape” in the RBR garage to Marko’s Voldemort, with Webber Harry Potter and Sebastian Vettel rapidly becoming Draco Malfoy.

        1. OH DEAR GOD!!! You didn’t just compare F1 to Harry Potter? That’s awful!

          1. I agree. Not all of us F1 fans follow Harry Potter. Ive completely missed your point.

          2. RandomChimp
            1st June 2010, 15:05

            I actually thought it was a rather good analogy :D

    2. Actually, i get the feeling Horner is doing what he can.
      In the firs interview he was covering up nice, saying the cars “were running the same as far as he was aware”.

      After hearing from Marko (and the telephone call from big Dieter) he changed that to a stance with more emphasis on Mark being to blame.
      The team bosses are 100% behind Vettel winning it, but Horner knows he needs Mark as well to do it.
      what a mess and blundering, this team still has a lot to learn.

    3. “Helmut Marko was a failure as an F1 driver”

      Er, do you know why Helmet Marko’s F1 career never came to anything? Because a stone flipped up by Emerson Fittipaldi’s Lotus at the 1972 French GP pierced Marko’s visor and hit him in the eye, partially blinding him. That kind of thing tends to hamper a career as a racing driver.

      Just weeks before his accident, Marko set the all time lap record at the Targa Florio and won Le Mans the previous year. He wasn’t bad driver by any measure – 10 GP starts in a third BRM wasn’t exactly a fair crack at the whip.

      1. Now we see that Marko and the Red Bull sponsors are just a one eyed Vettel fans.

        I don’t know what all the fuss is – Webber let Vettel through, and refused to be intimidated by some aggressive driving.

  20. I reckon that if the situation was reversed, Webber would’ve copped an earfull, and he would’ve owned up to it like a man and apologised directly.

    In James Allen’s article, he wrote that Hamilton was no closer than 1.2 sec to Vettel over the last 7 laps before the incident. Over this time Webber was told to turn the engine down…
    You can also see in the replay of the incident Horner’s saying “MOVE”.
    Sounds to me like they wanted to take the opportunity to ‘give’ the win to Seb.

    1. i really want to ask vettel what he would have done if he was in webber’s shoes (well, car). i find it incredibly hard to believe he’d have just opened the door to let him through. then again, webber wouldn’t be stupid enough to run one up the inside of his team mate knowing full well the gap was going to close at the apex of the corner.

  21. I think it is bad management to criticize either driver in public like this, yes give them a dressing down in private but they have handled it badly.

    Most people are blaming Vettel for the incident, maybe Red Bull have some information they are not making public which shows that Webber was to blame, but I think it is a case of Red Bull favouring Vettel.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 10:40

      I agree that Red Bull may be holding back some info, but none of it would exonerate Vettel anyway.

      Even if you were to whip out a contract saying “Mark is obliged to give way for Seb”, it doesn’t change the fact Vettel turned into Mark.

  22. These comments from Red Bull management are dissapointing. Helmut Marko’s comments are in my opinion are the most deranged. I think Horner is just saying what he’s been told to say.

    Since when should a team mate sacrifice the lead to protect the guy in second place from slipping back to third place? Especially when both drivers are equal on points going into the race. If anything Vettel should have been doing his best to defend against Hamilton giving the team the best possible chance of scoring another win. Instead it seems management decided that Mark should drop back to second, defend against Hamilton and hand Vettel the win. What a joke. If that’s the case their plan backfired big time.

    1. i completely agree. why should mark be the rear gunner when he’s leading the championshop?
      again, i wonder what would have happened if it was the other way around

  23. Some time ago Kovalainen pulled over to let his faster teammate Hamilton by. We discussed it, but I can’t find the thread, nor even remember the race. (Anyone?)

    I recall few, if any, people at that time saying that Kovalainen should have held his position. Instead he was applauded for his team spirit. (It would also be interesting to see what McLaren said about it at the time.) Why is it so different now? Just because Heikki pulled over and Mark didn’t?

    I know there are a lot of Hamilton and McLaren fans here, but don’t get carried away with partisanship.

    For the record, though, I also think Vettel was wrong in this case.

    1. Kovalainen was a slave to hamilton and new that from the outset. Webber has battled away for years, finally gets a car capable of winning the championship, is leading the championship and they treat him like a dill. thats the difference. It is not about the crash at all. It’s about the managements ill timed bias.

      1. And the RBR team here repeatedly stated they are treating both drivers equal.

        McLaren was not even asked to do that with Heikki, as he was clearly behind Lewis.

        1. Brake Bias
          2nd June 2010, 3:25

          and there in lies the difference.

          RBR keep stating both drivers are equal.

    2. I’m pretty sure they weren’t equally leading the WDC though. And was it this early in the season? Probably not, though I confess that I don’t remember what precise race this happened.

    3. I don’t recall this, but lets assume the context is different. Maybe, and very likely, Heikki was not equal on points with Hamilton at the top of the table, in fact I would imagine Heikki was not even looking at any chance of taking the championship that year… I also doubt they were swapping places to give Lewis the win over Heikki.

      If the situation was identical to the RBR farce, and Heikki was leading Hamilton for a McLaren 1-2 with them both leading the championship, and this situation was manufactured by the McLaren team… then I think the resulting Public Opinion would also match what we have here.

    4. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 10:43

      One of the differences is that Lewis didn’t cut across and wipe out the pair of them.

      On a side note, it’s brilliant to see Heikki so happy this year. Those years at McLaren really must have been depressing.

      1. agreed… heikki may not be able to match 100% of hamilton’s skill, but he definitely deserves to be in F1.. and the Lotus team is a good place for him, and in turn he is now a no.1 driver like i’m guessing all F1 drivers wish to be.

    5. remember fuel loads though. hamilton may have had more potential speed before a pit stop. makes it really hard to compare. those situations happened all the time with varying strategies.

    6. Here we go. 2008 German Grand Prix. (I wasted way too much time looking for this.)

      http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/07/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-despite-strategy-blunder-2008-german-gp-review/

      Check out the comments.

      1. Yep, pretty much as I described it.

    7. If memory serves me, I believe it was Hockenheim 2008. I think in that race LH had a 1.2 or 1.5 second lap-time advantage over HK and was chasing the field (Piquet & Massa) down after the botched pit-stop call during the safety car. It kinda looked like Massa and Piquet “moved aside” to let LH pass as well!

    8. It was in Hockenheim 2008. Hamilton had dominated the race, but didn’t make his pitstop when the safety car came out, as everyone else did. Therefore he had to pit later and lost a lot of positions and were behind Kovalainen. Heikki didn’t have the pace and Lewis was fighting for the championship, so Lewis was let passed, and then he passed Felipe and Nelsinho to win.

    9. Hamilton was a second a lap faster and he overtook Kovalainen hardly any easier than he breezed past Massa and later Piquet jr.

      The difference is that Hamilton is actually able to overtake cars and Vettel is not.

  24. I think the reason this is so bad, is the fact that it is so clear that high up management favour Vettel. I don’t think any other team would acknowledge thier preference to either driver. Even Ferrari who clearly favoured Schumacher didn’t actually admit it. I really see this turning quite ugly in the next few races if Webber continues to beat Vettel. What ever happened to teams being impartial, all drivers treated equally?

    1. is it just me or is this 2007 all over again? a debutant driver ferrari wins the first round, then goes wandering for a bit. meanwhile the fastest team’s drivers take points from each other and escalate tensions. then come europe phase 2, ferrari dominates….fastest team falls to pieces and pipped in the final round.
      WDC for alonso by 1 point in abu dhabi.

      1. very possible Tommy, except Hamilton by 1 point in Abu Dhabi! think there’s absolutely no way Ferrari can win this championship now, they’ll be lucky to keep ahead of Renault.

  25. Helmut’s reasoning is contradictory.

    1) He says that the most important thing for the Red Bull team as a whole was to secure a 1-2 result.
    2) He says that at the time of the incident, Vettel was going faster than Webber.
    3) He says that had Webber not let Vettel through, Vettel would have been passed by Hamilton.

    But if Webber was going slower than Vettel, he would surely have been even more vulnerable to attack by Hamilton. So Red Bull would have been more likely to secure their 1-2 finish by instructing Vettel to hold station and protect Webber from Hamilton.

    1. I was thinking along those lines too. Surely Hamilton would have had a crack at picking off Webber. The gap with Hamilton and Seb was pretty constant as it was shown on the F1 forum so if Seb had got held up the situation may have became more urgent but at that moment it wasn’t. Unless they think Seb just can’t defend :P

      1. Horner is now saying the win was priority not the 1-2…
        “Q: Were you happy that Sebastian challenged Mark for the lead at that point in the race? You had a one-two, so why not stick with that?
        CH: With the pace of the McLarens and with it looking like Sebastian was the quicker of the two Red Bull cars, the priority was to win the race.”
        Interview here. Just put up I think.
        http://www.redbullracing.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Christian-Horner–Turkish-GP-Debrief-021242855717795?refmod=ContentFeed&refmodpos=A1

        1. Thanks for that link Steph. Still they keep telling lies about Mark not moving over. He could never have reacted quick enough after Vettel drove into him.

          Still no apology at all from Marko and Vettel only half heartedly admitting any mistakes (we’ll take the admission of doing something wrong in Vettels diary for the after crash antics by Vettel for now)

    2. yup

      it stinks

    3. Exactly on the point! If Lewis would really have been such a threath, they should have had the faster car as rear guard.

      If not, this is just b******t, covering a team order blunder.

    4. The thing is though, Marko lied that Webber was going slower and that Hamilton was putting more and mroe pressure on Vettel.

      Hamilton and Webber were driving the same laptimes for about 9 laps. The gap between them was virtually a constant.

      Indeed Vettel was lapping 3 tenths a lap faster all of a sudden. He closed 8 tenths on Vettel in those few laps. he also enlarged his gap to Hamilton by the same amount.

      So all Marko’s scenario’s simply fall apart because his whole premise is a lie.

  26. The shortest suicide note in history from Dr Helmut. Too much vodka in his redbull perhaps. Just like their ghastly drink the whole thing leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. Theyve blown championships already through poor decision making despite having the fastest car but this time they’re going to look foolish and thats not good brand building. Horner may be sitting in a corner by next season.

  27. i would have thought that when one driver was ahead of another driver from the same team that room would be given….that’s all that is being asked of from management…after all they run the team.

    1. “Ahead”

      for Seb’s back wheel to hit Mark’s front wheel he couldn’t be that far in front.

      1. Seb’s back wheel actually first struck Marks car in the sidepod and then spun round into the front wheel.

        So he was even less “ahead” than he thought.

        1. Brake Bias
          2nd June 2010, 3:39

          yes, there seems to be intersting interpretations of what “being ahead” actually means.

          First point of contact of vettels car On Webber was on the side pod & not the front wing, If it had of been the front wing first, then yes a lot of the criticism aimed at Webber for not yeilding would be justified. To me, vettel had not passed Webber, but still beside him. vettels mistake in my opinion

  28. Teams lose trust when they say to the public on the one hand “we give equal opportunities to both drivers” and “we allow them to race,” and then do what appears to be the exact opposite.

    That’s why there is such strong reaction here PM. People don’t like to be taken as fools and the RBR management, whether rightly or wrongly, ‘appear’ to be doing just that.

  29. James Brickles
    1st June 2010, 11:24

    Webber was on the verge of extending his contract for Red Bull before the Turkish Grand Prix. I wouldn’t bet against Webber leaving Red Bull at the end of the year now. Comments that hint favouritism towards Vettel from within his own team are bound to unsettle the Aussie and affect his concentration.

  30. i just hate the vettel sympathy. ‘oh he’s had so much bad luck’. how about ‘seb screwed up and cost himself and the team valuble points. let’s forget about it and move to canada’.

    luck has nothing to do with it.

    1. and it’s not like they came out after the race in australia saying ‘oh mark’s had so much bad luck’. webber stuffed up qualy in bahrain and stuffed up the race in melbourne. difference is, he admitted it, apologised and moved on.

      1. Actually first Red Bull stuffed up Mark’s race in Australia.

        Webber was being held up by Vettel who was struggling on his worn intermediates. They called in Vettel so late that when they finally had time for Webber to come in he dropped from P2 to P6.

        If Red Bull hadn’t screded up so royally there, Webber would have come out on P2 or P1 and he could very well have gone on to win the race.

        Now he was frustrated and in a position where he had to take a lot of risk to overtake cars. Which indeed in the end didn’t go too well.

        He should never have been in that mess to begin with though.

        1. My thoughts exactly. Webber was in with a real shot at winning Melbourne, and they sacrificed that for Vettel. And remind me of how many points Vettel scored in Melbourne again?? Not only did RBR ruin their chances of a race win & decent points, they deprived us Aussie fans of seeing Webber on the podium at his home race, possibly even on the top step. An Australian has never won the Australian GP & we were all so keyed up for it to happen. It didn’t, and it should have, and so nearly did.

  31. In reality I don’t think anyone doubts a bias toward Vettel. I mean, a young German spokesman for Redbull is clearly a better marketing tool then an older Australian. I say this as an Australian and Webber supporter. Redbull are the experts at marketing. I suppose one of the weaknesses of f1 is the difficulty of drivers from places like Ausrtalia and other similar countries to get into f1 as they are less marketable. Webber showed promise for a long time but really only got into F1 as he was hired by the Minardi owner at the time, Paul Stoddard, another Aussie.

    The point I am getting to is favouring one driver may make marketing sense but in situations like this it may make the company look worse and be a marketing disaster.

    1. true indeed.

      and are you ‘the’ Andrew G?

      1. Ha. No, I don’t like him much.

  32. Mike Collins
    1st June 2010, 11:37

    Horner & Marko keep pushing that Vettel, by slipstreaming, had saved a “kilogram” of fuel and as such did not need to go into fuel saving mode. Since a kilogram of fuel is approximately 1.4 litres, my question is how far that would take Vettel’s car? Certainly not one lap by my calculation, more likely less than half a lap.

    Then why weren’t both drivers told to turn down their engines on the same lap?
    I think we all know why

  33. Another contradiction was that these two were previously told they were free to race or at least that is what Horner and RBR have said to the media numerous times. Free to race, not contingent on the circumstances or being in a 1-2 positon and under threat. Alonso seems like he’s constantly stuck behind Massa, Hamilton overtook Button in Aus that shows how teammates can race. They weren’t in 1-2 positions but Horner said before Malaysia that his drivers were free to race when Mark was on pole. If they could race in that instance at the start of a race (here they had a little but constant gap to Hamilton) then I don’t blame Mark for assuming he could defend now.

    Mark actually didn’t not let Seb by though. He squeezed but he left enough room for Seb to get by and kept his wheel completely straight. When Vettel turned in on him he then moved to try to avoid contact. There was sufficient room. The gorund work was there, Seb could see ahead if he couldn’t execute the move then that doesn’t mean it’s Mark’s fault. Seb had the room, he wasn’t in the gravel/grass or on the kerbs. He had an F1 car sized space.

    The favouritism issue is just speculation at the minute but it is very strong. That doesn’t make it true and it could just be perception but they’re going to watched incredibly closely and even if the drivers are pacified now, I wonder if there is still a trace of doubt left in their minds particularly Mark’s and coming out and saying this in public really can’t do any favours to a driver’s mentality.

    1. I agree. “Mark actually didn’t not let Seb by though.” Of course, because why would he? Both of them are fighting for the championship “on equal terms” as Red Bull call it. Now Vettel wanted more than just enough room, because he wanted a good line which could make him hold the lead after turns 12-14. As it was he was on the dirty side of the track, and would’ve had to brake very early, likely to hand Webber the lead back. Webber’s move was hard but fair, and that’s how it should be.

      What Vettel did was another stupid move, which is why I dislike him. Crashing with Webber now and in Japan 2007, and with Kubica in Australia 2009, is not good enough for a “true champion” as Red Bull seems to think he is.

      1. harsh – a racer in his early 20’s cant make a few mistakes?

        would you have booted Hamilton outta the sport for not seeing a red light?

    2. I don’t there’s much doubt that Red Bull’s management would prefer to see Vettel winning over Webber – but there’s a big difference between favouritism and preferential treatment.

      It’s perfectly possible for a team to wish to see one of its drivers win races instead of the other, while still supplying them both with identical equipment and the same opportunities to succeed. Ron Dennis has admitted that he was much closer to Mika Hakkinen than he was to David Coulthard, but both received equal equipment from McLaren. Hakkinen and Coulthard, of course, also once managed to collide losing their team a likely one-two – at the 1999 Austrian GP.

      There have, however, been occasions when a team has provided preferential treatment to a clear number one driver, Michael Schumacher at Ferrari being an obvious example. There are plenty of other examples – Jackie Stewart turned down the offer of a Lotus drive alongside Jim Clark, observing that Lotus’ number two driver rarely did anything worth mentioning.

      Webber rarely pulls his punches – if he believed Red Bull was consistently disadvantaging him relative to Vettel I don’t think he’d hesitate to say so.

  34. Everyone complains about no overtaking in Formula 1 but then berates drivers when they try and overtake their team mates as a “dangerous move”. A lot of people spoke of how lucky it is that Button and Hamilton didn’t go the same way as the Red Bulls. The only real over taking in an otherwise boring race was between team mates, had the Vettel/Webber and Button/Hamilton battles not taken place, I think the ratings for the race would have been a lot lower than they were.

    As for the Vettel/Webber incident,l this is the way I see it, Vettel was running faster than Webber and thus took a chance to overtake, dived up the inside and couldn’t get completely ahead of Webber before he had to move into a position to brake for the corner. At this point, he’d committed to the move and it seems to me he had two choices. 1. Continue on the dirty line and miss the turn in to the corner, forcing both the Red Bulls off the road. 2. Try and move aside into a position where he can brake and make the turn in to the corner and hope that your team mate moves to give you both enough room.

    I agree though that the handling of it by the team by laying the blame on one of their drivers when clearly both could have played a part in avoiding it, it a poor show and will only serve to demotivate and alienate Webber. They should have treated it as a racing incident and spoken to both drivers at the same time without laying blame.

    1. Everyone complains about no overtaking in Formula 1 but then berates drivers when they try and overtake their team mates as a “dangerous move”.

      I don’t agree that is what’s happened here at all.

      Vettel is being criticised for moving across on Webber and causing a crash.

      I don’t think I’ve read a single comment where someone has said “Vettel should not have tried to pass Webber”.

      1. It was merely an observation of some of the comments I’ve seen and heard since the race. More often directed at the Button/Hamilton fight, and a fair amount saying that it was dangerous and they were lucky to get away with it. In your team-by-team analysis you mentioned “…they can consider themselves lucky it didn’t end in tears.” In fact, a lot of people heavily criticised Alonso for his move on Massa in China, yet had they not been team mates it would have just been hailed as an opportunistic move. I just don’t feel that should be at the forefront of their minds, I want them to race and try and overtake each other, not the least because there are some fantastic drivers in the same team and it’s then down to setup and skill to see who prevails.

        Again, it was just a general attitude I’ve picked up on, not to say that people don’t want team mates to race, but just that they feel it should be some sort of watered down pseudo-racing where you only overtake if you can drive completely around the outside of your team mate with no element of risk.

      2. And one other thing, that of course only popped into my mind once I’d hit submit. A lot of comments do mention that if Red Bull wanted to secure a 1-2 then Vettel should have protected Webber rather than attack him. While that is a prudent strategy if you only have one driver in the running for the WDC, at this stage of the season I’d rather they just race.

      3. exactly, sure have a go but if you can’t do it cleanly, pull out before that happens. it’s ridiculous how marko suggests webber should have let him through. that is not racing. people want to see well fought and clean overtaking

      4. The big issue here is not that Vettel made a mistake, but the fact that Red Bull claim that the driver who didn’t make a mistake was to blame.

        Also the fact that by now it’s blatantly clear that there was some form of team effort going on to put Vettel in front of Webber.

        What they did looks like the most disgusting form of team orders that you can imagine. Instead of actually being man enough to tell the lead driver to move over, they crippled his car and boosted the following car. Telling only Vettel what was going on and Webber was quietly getting done in.

        The FIA should investigate this as team orders are illegal. In what form these orders are given is irrelevant.

        Hamilton argued that his pitstop in Monaco 2007 was a form of team orders too. The FIA judged that it wasn’t but at least they investigated that situation.

    2. Brake Bias
      2nd June 2010, 3:46

      Puffy, he also had a third option which was he could of backed off & waited until another opportunity presented itself. Sadly, he did not.

  35. I am certain the RBR team wanted a 1-2 finish, but with Sebastian 1 and Mark 2. That is the meaning of the code speak telling Mark to turn his engine down while telling Sebastian to turn his up.

    That is why Mark was not outraged at the incident, because he was expected to respond to the code, and knew he would be in trouble for how things turned out.

    The fact that he technically made just enough room for Sebatian, but then Sebastian messed it up is why the team is unhappy with him. He was supposed to make it easy, and that is what Sebastian expected.

    This is exactly the same sort of code speak as Maclaren telling Jensen “fuel is CRITICAL” ie. HOLD STATION! All the teams do it since they cannot be up front with the team orders.

    As for why they prefer Vettel for 1 and Webber for 2, there have been a lot of good speculations in previous posts. I think most plausible is Webber is likely to move teams for next season, and would take 1 with him.

  36. To play devils advocate for a second, F1 is littered with teams who lost championships as a result of not favouring drivers or of trying to anyway ( just Williams an Mclaren have lost countless WDC’s). Michael Schumacher wasnt as successful as he was because his team mate was given equal treatment.

    Red Bull are allowed to favour a driver, he is their boy and he is the future. They have seen it blow up in their face in this race but whatever the rights and wrongs of that, generally you win more by having a number one

    1. and that should be webber. he’s leading the championship and simply driving better now while the maclarens are catching them

  37. Im disgusted. Poor Webber. I feel so much for this guy. He looks utterly wrecked. I just hope that he isnt put to bed now.

  38. RBR management wanted Seb in front because he would not have won the pressure battle with Hamilton. Webber would have had a better chance of holding off Hamilton.
    Seb’s quick but he’s mentally vulnerable and commits to many errors under pressure when it comes to man on man dogfights.
    His move on Webber was like a kid on a Playstation, he fogot in the real world there are consequences of getting it wrong. There are many buttons on an F1 steering wheel but “Play Again” isn’t one of them

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 14:45

      “There are many buttons on an F1 steering wheel but “Play Again” isn’t one of them”

      Such a true point. Vettel isn’t and hasn’t been the only driver who needs to get a grip with that point. Piquet Jr springs to mind…

  39. I still can’t believe it….after looking at the incident so many times and even after reading the team’s comments …..u guys still feel iys vettel’s fault….i clearly think its webber’s fault…..its clear red bull don’t favour anybody….but they can’t just support the one who is in fault….i think its clearly webber’s fault

    1. I really am curious, Rahim, as to how you blame Webber here. Really, I am. Theories, evidence, all would be welcome…or are you just content to say it’s Webber’s fault, with no real reasoning?

      1. yeh, reasoning would help…

    2. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 14:46

      It’s exactly after watching the incident so many times that the majority of us have come to the decision that it was Vettel’s fault. The management’s position is not relevant to who gets apportioned blame, but it’s getting discussed as it is contradictory to most of the general thought direction here and elsewhere on the web.

    3. Rahim, I’m wondering which race you were watching?

      Because in the one being discussed in this thread, it is blatantly obvious that Vettel couldn’t pull off a clean overtake in time to be on proper line in the braking zone, and cut to the right well before he was clear of Webber’s car, evidently expecting Webber to lay down and let him drive by.

      As to the tema’s comments, it’s clear that if Marko and Christian actually believe what they are saying, they wouldn’t know a fact if it bit them in the butt.

  40. Awsome. Just awesome.
    It will be AWESOME to see the team with the fastest cars on the track loosing the championship because of the awfully moronic team management.
    Marko, do are doing an awesome job! After the first four races I thought that the season will be a boring series of RBR 1-2s. Now, thanks to Marko and Horner, we will have some dispute because you two are cracking the team apart with your mindless statements.
    It will be awesome.

  41. I think at this point FIA should be investigating team orders by RBR during the Turkey Grand Prix. By continuing to insist Webber was wrong to defend his lead, Marko and Horner are effectively declaring that Webber was under ‘implicit’ instruction to let Vettel past: their complaint to Webber is that he didn’t ‘understand’ what the team wanted. That’s team orders, irrespective of whether they happened or not. RBR are throwing this season’s F1 championship into serious disrepute, since if their car continues to be ahead of the rest, RBR will be deciding off track who wins this year. And it isn’t their current best driver and WDC leader. This is a serious issue.

    1. I agree 100%.
      The problem will be how to prove before the FIA that RBR is using the fuel control to decide who wins.

      1. Haha no my friend. I think the bigger problem would be Jean Todt trying to enforce a punishment for team orders.

        1. lol, Hamish, lol

        2. Why would you say so. He is the expert on this matter, knowing exactly how to do it!

          1. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 14:47

            …which is exactly Hamish’s point! :D

        3. Sadly very true!

        4. LOL, Hamish, you almost made me spill my coffee all over my PC screen….

        5. Todt giving / enforcing a punishment for team orders…….

          my, the irony is simply delicious, isn’t it?

    2. Completely agree. Remember the Monaco 2007 case where they investigated whether McLaren had kept Hamilton back from winning that race.

      The data should show exactly how much fuel the drivers had and who was running at what engine setting. They knew this things during the Monaco 2007 investigation too.

      The team (especially Marko) is quite clear on the fact that the team wanted Vettel in front of Webber.

  42. “…with Sebastian Vettel which put both cars out of the Turkish Grand Prix.”

    erm…Mark finished 3rd.

    1. Sorry – fixed.

  43. Used to be a Red Bull fan.
    I’m a Webber fan now.
    How stupid all this sounds! Can’t explain the unexplainable. It is clear on the images how Vettel moved to the left and collided Webber who was on his lane and with enough space inside for Vettel to pass. If it was the dirty side, is Vettels problem. Can’t force Webber to the outside kerbs just to let your team mate go!!….
    The most important thing here is that Webber showed that he has what it takes to be a tilte contender in the last races, so RBR should give him the opportunity and don’t put all the apples on Vettel’s basket.
    Remember when Ferrari didn’t let Irvine to be WC, just because they wanted MSC to be the following year?
    Shame on them and shame on Red Bull now!

    GO WEBBER!

    1. Vettel moved to the right, sorry…

  44. My take on it was this. I thought, hats off to the kid for taking the shot at Webber. If Webber wasn’t gonna give him the room then the kid had the balls to try to push it. Webber didn’t give and SV ended up on the bad side of the deal. I think we can all think of more than a few WC’s that that had both those qualities. That’s racing isn’t it?

  45. My previous comment just got me thinking.

    I’m not saying this is the case but lets just say for the sake of this comment the whole Mark turned engine down/Seb turned engine up was to get Seb past Mark. That would therefore bring us back to team orders. Now my question is what type of reaction would there be from teams, commentators, the media and us with Jean Todt trying to enforce and punishment for team orders? I know his position is President of the FIA but once again the sport would be subject to ridicule in which it has no defence for.

    1. Hamish , the only driver that listens to orders is the #2 driver ;)

      Is there a #2 @ RB?

      1. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 14:48

        Going by what’s happened… obviously is the answer to that!

  46. If nothing else it simply proves that Webber and Vettel don’t know how to overtake. Australia ’09 and ’10 anyone?

    Vettel and Webber can cruise at the front all they like when no-one can pressure them but the minute another team matches their pace or they need to take cars for position they lose it.

    1. Webber CAN overtake, though, there are some classic moves in the 2009 season. His move on Hamilton earlier at Albert Park this season was horrible, and he admitted as much. Occasionally it CAN go wrong.

      On a side note, I’d be very curious to hear Adrian Newey’s opinion. I always got the feeling he supported Mark wholeheartedly.

      1. Adrian Newey being on the side of the driver against the team management is not exactly a new position for him. Whether or not Newey will be as annoyed with Red Bull’s treatment of Webber as he was with Williams’ treatment of Damon Hill (ie, enough to leave the team) we shall have to wait and see.

    2. i think you’ve forgotten malaysia and spain 09 for some good overtaking by webber. to be honest though, nothing springs to mind with seb…

  47. Frank from Oz
    1st June 2010, 13:46

    I hardly ever post comments on the internet, but this incident has certainly made me want to share my humble views.
    I am a Webber fan since he started in F1, but it is not the actual shunt during the race that bothers me. It is the reaction by Vettel and in particular the comments by Horner and Marko placing blame on Webber. I guess under pressure the true colours emerge, though Webber has remained remarkably dignified and composed.
    It will be interesting if anyone from RBR has more to say on this, I’m sure they will be asked plenty at the next event.
    Cheers all and enjoy Montreal.

    1. Well thanks for choosing this site to share your views, Frank. Hope to hear from you again soon.

    2. I agree, He is composed in this video, but he does look incredibly tired, even close to crying. What have they done to him?

      1. They have shown him that a mature, skilled, dominant Aussie driver winning the WDC in a Red Bull car is less important to them than having their younger more-marketable fair-haired boy German driver win the WDC for the Austrian registered team.

        Also, Red Bull’s management have demonstrated that their integrity may leave something to be desired, which I am certain is a great disappointment to Webber. He may be envisioning his car full of glitches and “unlucky” happenings for the remainder of the season, as Vettel is pushed to the front by Red Bull.

        I sincerely hope I am wrong about that last bit of speculation, as webber ceertainly has demonstrated, to me at least, that of the 2 drivers at Red Bull, he is the one with class enough to be a propersort of champion.

  48. This situation is emerging as I feared it may. The management and corporate people at Red Bull clearly favor Vettel: he’s their product and clearly the guy who they’re building the team around for the future. Of course, being arguably the most talented driver out there and having the perhaps most potential of anyone, Red Bull bigwigs know they must do all they can to keep him happy or risk losing him to Ferrari or Mercedes. Plus, there have been rumblings in the past that Marko, in addition to his pro-Vettel agenda, also has an anti-Webber agenda, and this incident provided him with the perfect opportunity to advance it.

    This could seriously blow the team apart. aside from being a conflict between drivers. Upper management has now chimed in on Vettel’s side, and it could stir up other people in the team with whom Webber has deep and strong ties dating back to the Jaguar days to stand up for him. It’s a shame, because Red Bull as a team has so much potential.

    I know this; if the situation isn’t fully resolved by Canada, there is zero chance Webber will be back at Red Bull next year. The good news is he’s on great form, and if he continues it, there could be a cozy seat ready for him next year in a red car.

  49. MouseNightshirt
    1st June 2010, 13:55

    A translated entry in Seb’s fan diary:

    “Hello!

    You all saw what happened. That were such racing moments in which you should shut yourself away for 20 minutes without running into cameras immediately. That’s why I often feel sorry for football players, who have to do interviews right after a match, still being full of adrenalin and so they might say something they regret afterwards. Nevertheless, I did no mistake. I was much quicker than Mark. I will try to see it positive because I found the speed I was missing for the last two races. In Canada it will be difficult with the straight lines, but I will attack again…

    Your Sebastian”

    1. As he should ;)

    2. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 14:16

      Just to note, I didn’t do the translation, it was pulled from a forum.

    3. he is truly lost

      1. I think that’s the attitude that a WC has to have.

        1. MouseNightshirt
          1st June 2010, 14:49

          If he doesn’t grow up a bit, he could be waiting a long time before he wears a number 1 on his car…

        2. Don’t think so. A true champion knows that he did something wrong. He would find some excuse for it, but still.

    4. He found the speed he’d been missing …. ? “I was much quicker than Mark” … ? Yeah, right after Webber was instructed to turn down his fuel mix.

      Dear heaven, this boy displays such a lack of character with these remarks.

  50. Well, at least F1 has a new whipping boy which lets Lewis Hamilton off the hook.

    Vettel has a history of doing this (although Mark Webber is no angel when it comes to causing crashes – but at least he apologises when he knows he is to blame as in Australia). He did it in the pitlane in China – squeezing Hamilton into the path of the mechanics when he had heaps of room on his other side.

    I wonder if those who were so quick to put the blame for that squarely on Lewis’s shoulders will now re-evaluate. Even Charlie Whiting said the pitlane incident was more Vettel’s fault than Hamilton’s.

    What makes a bad situation even worse is the hand gestures indicating that Mark was crazy. How rude, unprofessional and unsportsmanlike! Particularly to a teammate and when the incident was entirely his fault.

    1. Prost and Senna come to mind?

    2. yeh, the china thing i thought was completely hamilton’s fault during the race but after watching replays, he was just unlucky with wheelspin and vettel was a tad rude to say the least. i’s marginal though cause lewis could have yeilded.

      1. But Hamilton didn’t have to yield. That’s exactly what Charlie Whiting said. Racing on the fast lane is ok, but pushing each other off is not.

  51. LOL!! To quote Bruce Wade-Schuz here…

    http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Turkish-Grand-Prix–Not-A-Result-To-Savour-021242854675153#comment-462

    “Perhaps its not Vettels fault at all. As the great Jeremy Clarkson pointed out, theres a problem with many German cars in that the moment you take your hands off the wheel, even for an instant, they automatically turn towards Poland. If Webber was between Vettel and Poland, that would explain the incident.”

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 14:24

      Ah, bless Clarkson!

      1. At this point I have to add… good thing that Vettle isn’t American. ;)

  52. Lot of Vettel haters here but lets look at it from a racing standpoint. There was no way in hell Vettel was going to make a left hand turn from the left side of the track (dirt side) at those speeds. Yes Webber new that and left himself to either A) hit webber B) over shoot the corner… Vettel choose C) cut right to make the turn which yes he shouldn’t of done knowing Webber was there.

    1. from a racing point of view Mark would have known that and expected any other driver on the dirty inside to have backed off early so he could re-take his line behind webber and have another go at another corner. Mark was defending the lead of the race and the lead in the championship.

    2. or D) drop back and try to make a safe pass?

      why do people keep forgetting Vettel could have easily pulled back if he couldn’t make the move stick?

    3. “There was no way in hell Vettel was going to make a left hand turn from the left side of the track (dirt side) at those speeds.”

      Ehm … isn’t that exactly what defending your line is about?

      If Vettel had a better chance on the outside of the corner he could have gone there too. Just like Button did.

      The fact that you put your car beside another car doesn’t mean that the lead car should simply yield their position.

      It’s not a sport for little girls …

  53. Sush Meerkat
    1st June 2010, 14:38

    I’m pretty sure Christian Horner was out of shot in that video pointing a gun a Webber’s head telling him to “KEEP TO THE SCRIPT!”

  54. Randy Mandy to charge Vettel for assault and public humiliation.

  55. I haven’t read all the post so i don’t know if this has been asked already but why did the FIA not investigate this accident? surely if it wasn’t two team mates vettel would find himself 10 grid spots further down in Canada.

    1. Someone claimed that the incident was looked at by the stewards, but wasn’t investigated because it didn’t happen in the braking zone.

      I haven’t seen any official confirmation on this though. The only stewards document on the FIA site (document 33) is now gone missing. Maybe they retracted it?

  56. come on, as if a german driver would deliberately drive into someone!

    1. I truly laughed so hard at that, that tears ran down my cheeks.

      Great comment.

  57. Lee McKenzie on Twitter, quoting a debrief recieved from Christian Horner…

    Horner – “What we expect from our drivers is that they show respect for each other and allow one another enough room on the race track”

    Well, Mark did… Vettel didn’t.

  58. More reaction from Red Bull: Horner blames both drivers for crash

  59. Marco on f1.com:

    Q: Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
    HM: I think it was in the tyres.

    What a joke.

  60. Webber to smash vettel every race from here on out. FIRE UP MARK!

  61. From the dictionary on my desk:-

    red (noun). having the face temporarily suffused with blood, being a sign of anger, shame etc.

    bull (noun). a ludicrously self-contradictory or inconsistent statement.

  62. I can see the position Red Bull is in right now. I think Webber doesn’t have anything to offer to F1 anymore, Vettel is the future and Red Bull knows it. It is Webber fault not giving enough space to let Vettel pass cause Vettel was faster than him. Hamilton was catching both of them and the risk would be to lose the race to the McLaren’s. The team gave orders to both drivers, to Webber to get to the saving fuel mode and Vettel to use the extra liter he had, the pass was planned, Vettel new it and Mark new it too, so that’s why Vettel thought he wasn’t passing an adversary but a team-mate that was going to let him pass. We have seen the antics of Webber before regarding to be passed, he is the president of the drivers association but he behaves like a little kid. Webbers behavior is not good for the team, IMO that’s why they are saying and acting like this.

    1. Webber has run well all year, has had 3 straight poles, lead every lap at Monaco, has one the last 2 races in a row before Turkey and was, and still is, leading the WDC points.

      Yes, I see your point, of course. Webber has nothing to offer F1.

      If Vettel is Red Bull’s future, then they are welcome to him. Hopefully they will have him take lessons in both overtaking and in maturely accepting responsibility.

      Oh, and a course in brake management wouldn’t hurt either.

    2. Well one of them was behaving like a little kid. Not convinced that it was Webber, though.

    3. LondonRacer
      2nd June 2010, 10:16

      Lewis wasn’t catching them enough and both Red Bulls were fast… Vettel just couldn’t allow Mark to get a three-in-a-row result, and he’d conserved enough fuel whilst running behind anyway… Both drivers were told to save fuel, but given their nature, they wanted to race. One of them just doesn’t know how to overtake in a straight line. Couldn’t Vettel do his team a favour and make it a one-two? It’s a long season anyway

  63. with all due respect macca77 that is the biggest misreading of a position since a certain Welsh minister got into someones car on Clapham Common.

    IMO should read IMO and no one else int he worlds bar Dr Helmut and little Jack Horner

  64. rui moreira
    1st June 2010, 16:07

    its obvious that vettel made the mistake, he probably tried to clash wheels on wheels, but he didnt figure that his position was not right for that move which has become a feature of GP racing.
    now, redlbull obviously want vettel to win the championship but, alas, webber is a mor experienced driver.
    i think in the end it will be mclaren to win the championship, because they have a better structure, they have learned from past mistakes, nd as hamilton pointed out, these antics would never have happened in that team.
    on another note, ferrari behind schumi – what a laugh -.

  65. Wow. the site just ate my comment. Let me copy all and recap:

    When Marko said Vettel would fall to Hamilton he knew what he was talking about. RBR was critical on fuel. VMM’s strategy of pushing them down the straight with the F-duct all but guaranteed that Webber could not touch the mixture-knob. He could not lolligag through 8, as it would put in in danger at 12, or 3, where Hamilton was very quick. The f-duct cancelled out completely RBR’s handling advantage at this track. Their only hope was to have one car delay the McLarens. They chose the stupid way to do it—they way that burned more fuel and wasted lap time— letting Vettel past with his lousy extra liter of gas. Oh, and it was dangerous. Even if it went off properly, they risked letting Hamilton pounce on both of them. VMM would have been able to use less fuel, with their efficient Mercedes engine, each lap they were behind RBR, and with the F-duct at the ready, it was only a matter of time before Hamilton dusted them both when they were forced to drop a couple revs into 12. RBR panicked when they realized this and their drivers showed insufficient skill to deal with a delicate strategic situation.

    All that said. If RBR wants to humiliate the man who has two firsts and a third in the last three races, and leads the WDC for them, they will never win a championship. As I have said, making sugar water is not the same as making race cars, and a team managed, apparently, directly, by people who sell drinks are not going to prosper. This is the same bad pit wall that lost them the titles last year, so why does Mateschitz think this year will be different? If anything, they are making it worse. Horner has to walk, for starters.

    1. Why do people refer to the roots of Red Bull as if their drink has anything to do with their racing team?

      They bought a racing team and they pay the (majority of) bill of the running costs. That’s it.

      I’ll agree that RBR panicked though. Webber didn;t think they had (during post race interviews), but at that time he didn’t know what the team was plotting against him and why.

      1. I think Webber knew his fuel situation but is just supremely confident in how wide his car is. I think that he discounted that Hamilton, like Alonso, is not a guy who is going to just let you drive down the middle of the braking zone every time and escape without “autographing” your side-pod. Hamilton has done some crazy stuff to get by people, running pepole off the road, sacrificing wing-bits. And sometimes he gets it way, way wrong (Fuji 2008?) Are people now scared of him? Well, Helmut Marko is. Webber fears no one, which why I like him, but I don’t think he was going to keep Hamilton back without leaving some carbon fiber on the track. I’m most annoyed though that we did not see a Hamilton-Webber duel to the end, lap after lap at 200mph into turn 12.

        I knoew Dieter writes the checks, but isn’t it strange that he has Newey on the payroll but the rest of the pit wall are rather undistinguished? They need a shake up at the operational level and I wonder if Mateschitz knows what to do.

        1. Hamilton is one of the cleanest overtakers of them all. It’s exactly why he is so effective at it.

          If anything he suffers from some drivers overly aggressive defending. Like Raikkonen pushing him off track in Spa 2008.

          Or in Brazil 2009 when Barrichello tried to squeeze him and punctured his own rear. Barrichello apologized for that though.

          Fuji 2008 Hamilton simply outbraked himself. Webber did the same twice in Australia. Webebr got zero penalties for it there.

          1. LondonRacer
            2nd June 2010, 10:19

            well, Mosley’s gone and stewards have been restructured… we can sigh with relief and enjoy racing

  66. great comment daveW. fascinating, so they basically gambled on a hand they were going to lose anyway and lost the pot! And your right theyve been finding new ways to cock up for a couple of years now.

  67. It was Vettel’s fault, no question. He should have pushed on in a straight line for just a fraction of a second longer, and then turn in. He mis-timed it. Webber, who has screwed up many a race precisely because of his personality or call it poor race-management skills, simply held his position and made Vettel expend the extra effort to close out the pass. If Vettel realized that he could not complete the pass then, he should have waited for the next lap. We know that he had enough fuel for one more lap at full throttle. And who knows, with the team having seen that a potential for collision was very much there, they might have advised Webber to let Vettel go by on that next lap.

    It is nobody’s fault but Vettel’s, no “if”s or “but”s.

  68. Surely Maschwetz or whatever his name is decides on the key appointments who then decide further appointments further down the chain. Its not as simple as saying he bought Stewart Racing ( it was them wasnt it) and they operate in exactly the same way. They dont.

    Maschwetz owns the rights to a 3rd rate drink that he has turned into a world class performer. He owns the rights to an F1 team who are achieving 3rd rate results with a world class car.

    Bit harsh but hes well on the way.

  69. Webber is now the big winner out of this debacle. Not only did he earn 15 more points than Vettel, he won over the fans and media that he’s a wise and feisty racer doing what he’s suppose to do. He handled himself with class right after the race, and also with his statements today how his team and both drivers need to learn and move on from this. Meanwhile Vettel’s stock fell off a cliff by his public immaturity. It also reinforce the belief that he’s not at all great at overtaking.

    F1 fans are also big winners who were treated a true “race” and its drama. How thankful we should be that finally “F1 controversies” arose from pure on-track action rather than stirred up by Max Mosley and the like. Long live F1!

  70. I really hate Red Bull right now.

  71. Vettel is the faster driver …Webber needs to get out of his way

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 17:21

      Care to elaborate and give your reasoning?

      1. Just adding fuel…but they need to change these cars ,so we can see some passing…it was a boring race until this happened :)

  72. Guys, I have a question:
    is it JUST ME, or that idea of a RACING DRIVER getting out of the way is just exactly the opposito of what a CAR RACING should be?

    Because if now Formula 1 is all about one driver making room to be overtaken, I will seriously consider watching some curling on TV.

  73. A lot of “obviously” in this interview lol

  74. For me the worst aspect was Vettel’s behaviour afterwards making gestures implying Webber was stupid or crazy. Extremely unprofessional from someone who had a previously well regarded character.

    Fast forward one year – Webber with number 1 on his car racing for another team?

  75. Jhonnie Siggie
    1st June 2010, 18:14

    They have finally cracked and conceded that it was not entirely Webber’s fault http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84085. I am glad fan power counts for something. Did they really expect us to buy Helmut Marko’s spin vs. what we could clearly see with our eys?

    1. Yup looks like some serious back peddling at red bull now.

    2. Actually, the article still seems to pin a fair amount of blame on Webber for ‘not giving enough room’. They’ve just sugar coated it a little, is all.

  76. Oh dear. Lets start another heated debate lol.

    Is it the controversies or the racing that make F1 great?

    F1 and I guess by natural extension the media have a way of ramping up and dragging out incidences that are sometimes commonplace in other motor sports. It does this well. But is it proportionate to the racing we are seeing?

  77. Slightly off point but i was gazing through an old autosport mag from feb 2010 and i noticed that hamilton’s best time was 1:20.400 and yet come Quali a good couple of months later he only managed a 1:20:800 bearing in mind the new updates on the Mclaren.
    Weird. Can anyone shed any light

  78. Thing is, I don’t know why Red Bull are so up Vettels bottom. I’m pretty sure if McLaren or Ferrari came knocking Vettel would be out of there! They need to show equal support for both drivers. Webber has outperformed every car he has raced. Vettel was only marginally faster than Bourdais at Toro Rosso. When Vettel took pole at Monza, Bourdais wasn’t too far behind in 5th, they had a fast car that season!

    1. LondonRacer
      2nd June 2010, 10:21

      Vettel and Alonso in Ferrari 2012? Might actually witness some proper cat fights in the garage

      1. Handbags at 10 paces… driver with the best result in the last race gets to swing first

  79. Wow this is getting a lot of heated response for a non-Hamilton issue.

    1. Almost as much as a Schumacher vs Alonso issue?

  80. Electrolite
    1st June 2010, 23:22

    This may have recieved 272 comments as of yet, but at the end of the day;

    “And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.”

    Who says he should have let him past? Mark has his own race to worry about!

    1. Mark’s just not a team player,he will be out at the end of season, even if he wins WDC.

      1. LondonRacer
        2nd June 2010, 10:08

        you mean Vettel isn’t… Webber has been in his shadow for too long, and Vettel can’t take it when someone else is getting all the wins… he ruined Mark’s 3 in a row, crazy spoiled kid

    2. You are exactly right. Seb has to pass him.

      1. justbull racing
        2nd June 2010, 5:24

        Seb doesn’t know how to pass. That should be blatantly obvious by now.

      2. As oppossed to Seb who is such a great sport and super team player. In opposite land perhaps.

        1. LondonRacer
          2nd June 2010, 10:09

          in Red Bull land :)) I do prefer Monster energy

  81. Mark in Florida
    1st June 2010, 23:35

    Looks like the hippy love fest is over at RBR.If Mark doesn`t stand up for himself no one else at RBR apparently will.It just shows that no matter how good of a driver you are if your not the Bosses pet. You had better tow the company line and make Vettel look like the second coming of Michael Schumacher.Only problem he`s not that smart and throws away obvious chances to win and or place high in the points.Mark needs to leave because the fiction of team equality is over.

  82. I would like to know what Newey has to say about this whole mess. At any rate add me to the list of Webber supporters; the collision was not Marks’ fault at all.
    The following car(in this case Vettel) has the responsibility to find a safe way to pass the leading car; the leader of the race(in this case Webber) does not have to move aside for anyone, and that includes his “spoiled brat” teammate.

    SHAME ON RED BULL RACING!! I am no longer a fan of Red Bull, but I will continue to support Mark Webber in his quest to become the 2010 WDC!!! Go Mark!!!

    1. LondonRacer
      2nd June 2010, 10:10

      Newey should move to Renault where there’s only one dominant driver and one rookie… Red Bull are a bit of a political mess, it turns out

  83. Yeah RBR have posted a Q&A with Horner which sorta more or less nuances their earlier public statements:

    http://www.redbull.com/cs/Satellite/en_INT/Article/Christian-Horner–Turkish-GP-Debrief-021242855717795?refmod=ContentFeed&refmodpos=A1

    But the best they can come up with is apparently this:

    “What we expect from our drivers, as team-mates, is that they show respect for each other and allow one another enough room on the race track. Unfortunately neither driver did this on Sunday and the net result was an incident between the two.”

    Not quite a retraction of guilt from Mark Webber’s side, like they claim in the Autosport article. He also still insists Hamilton was putting “tremendous” pressure on them, despite all published evidence pointing to the pressure not having changed for several laps up to that point.

    So yeah, they’re a bit full of it and themselves. Too much so to admit they were simply wrong. If not entirely with the guilt-apportion, then certainly with how they handled themselves after the fact.

  84. Here’s the B.S. stopper , now watch an listen , Webber went right then left…now watch vettel’s hands , he never turn in on webber until after the HIT. .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHRpfGbcFUg

    1. It’s hard to tell with the looking at steering wheel. A more accurate gauge is to look at the distance of Vettel’s LFW from the white line, it gradually increases in distance once he comes alongside MW. Which can only mean he turned into Webber at the last moment. BS cleared.

      This is also the same corner that Alonso had issues under braking in qualifying. The bumps could have caused SV to veer to the right.

      Regardless, I can see no way it was MW’s fault. The response from the team is nothing but RedBull****.

    2. *sigh*
      You’re blind, surely. There’s even a site which shows still images of how one moment Vettel’s car is right against the line, next moment there’s a metre of space in which he’s drifted right. Keep clutching at straws, because now even RBR have gone back on their original view…

    3. Every comment you have made thus far has been extremely biased and unfounded. We get the point, you don’t like Mark Webber. The video link above shows Mark keeping the car on his line; no movement once Vettel starts to move up beside him. And yes, Vettel’s steering wheel was tilted slightly right before the impact (plus the outside camera shots confirm that it was HIS car that pitched right suddenly into Mark)… bear in mind that with the exceptionally quick steering ratios on an F1 car, you would barely have to move the steering wheel to make a move like Vettel did at those speeds. Coming from a racing background personally, fault lies with Vettel.

      1. Look, i don’t hate Mark Webber,look how fast SV was coming up on MW,- mw 1st moved right ,so sv when left,then mw moved left, it was a laim FF move, just go to youtube an put in Mark Webber Formula Ford…you see mw is no angle

  85. As the year has progressed, Webber has outperformed Vettel and as a result you can see and hear Vettel’s lack of poise now that he is not king of the hill at RBR.
    If this situation does not change, irrespective of any potential fallout from Turkey, Vettel will become increasingly frustrated and will vent his feelings on and off the track. He hasn’t the maturity yet to accept losing to his team mate now that they are the pride of the grid and we can look for him to do more stuff on the track.
    This, in my view, is but a first of a number of such events to come.

  86. I’m glad all of you english guys have something to talk about. Fact is that Weber had almost half the track to the right side available. Vettel couldn’t go anywhere else. Weber just didn’t want to let go and forced Vettel into the situation. He is as much to blame. And I think that for any intelligent being with a little bit of a brain it shouldn’t matter whether Sebastian Vettel is a German. But I’m sure you will criticize my opinion to the max, too. Go ahead, proof that you have a brain … (or not).

    1. “Fact is that Weber had almost half the track to the right side available.” Yes, Webber was covering the inside line leading into turn 12. This meant that Vettel had two choices: 1. Try a pass on the outside (right side) of Webber, similar to Button on Hamilton later in the race. This would have been safer as there was loads of room, and he would have had the inside line for the following right hander where he could have pushed Webber out wide. Or 2. Try a pass into the car width space that Webber had left on the inside. You could see in the replays that he went right whilst behind Webber to try the outside line, then changed his mind and decided to dive bomb the inside.

      So Webber didn’t force Vettel into the situation – he made a choice to drive defensively and cover the inside, and he held his line as he should have. Vettel chose to take the riskier of his two options and a crash was the result (actually, there was a third option – don’t pass and be happy with a 1-2 for the team!)

    2. Dr Marko, is that you?

    3. Vettel couldn’t go anywhere else.

      He could have continued going straight. He didn’t have to turn right and Webber wasn’t obliged to give him any more space than he had done.

      Also what’s with this “you english guys” stuff? Nationality has nothing to do with this.

      1. KC,look at the posted video above ,look at the angle of MW nose before the hit, MW just being a D

    4. The importance of Vettel’s nationality in the debate is that he is German and the team is Austrian. The two nations have been close for years and it is reasonable to suggest that the Red Bull management and in particular Helmut Marko have shown a bias toward Vettel. If this is true then we could conclude Vettel will enjoy preferential treatment. This will be a great shame to all race fans, irrespective of nationality, who pay to watch racing. In a technology dominated era often the only real race we get is between guys in equal cars. Let’s hope the two Red Bulls are equal for the remainder of the season.

  87. What race were you watching?
    Maybe you should go to Specsavers

  88. that was to dj He/She thinks noo-ne else saw anything

    1. yup,look at the posted video,MW moved right then left after SV started his pass

  89. If Red Bull stars to favour Vettel then Webber then I wonder whether the later will stay in the team in 2011.You go to any website & if you see that the majority of the fans are blaming Vettel which is OK, but I think Red Bull should have supported their drivers other than blaming each other that shows how weak is their management.

  90. Can anyone explain to me why Mark Webber decelerates before the impact. You can clearly hear that in the video. was this not before the breaking point? could he have done this on purpose? what happens when the back of the front wheel of a car hits the front of the backwheel of another car? which wheel survives normally? would not the front wheel (mark’s car) always win?

    1. He decelerated because Seb would have gone in too shallow and too hot on the marbles. But he held his line and that had nothing to do with the collision. He did move right after Vettel turned in but you can’t expect a reaction as fast as that. He had no hope of avoiding the hit after Vettel made his choice and slashed it in.

  91. in other words maybe you can make an argument that the crash is not caused by the fact that the cars are to close , the crash is caused by the fact that suddenly one car slows down and thus causes the wheels to touch. I just want one of you engineers out there to clarify: does the wheel going up towards impact have an advantage here?

    1. I am guessing this is just a case of audio lag. Why would Webber want to slow down any earlier than he needed to, with 3 cars ready to pass him at the smallest error? And 2 of those are the quickest in a straight line!

      1. well the audio lag had nothing to do with it because you can hears the contact when you see them hit so there is no lag. The explanation then is that Webber did a fowl move which is why vettel suggested he is nuts. the collision came from diference in speed not from one car moving towards the other.

        1. Thank you,some one seeing the same thing…the right ,left move by MW set this whole thing off

  92. This will be 2010 saviour for F1. More mayhem must follow every race or else it will be a big bore. Turkey’s race was a procession until Vettel and Webber’s clash. There’s really no exciting overtaking unless more incidents keeps cropping up. Noticed the amount of postings in all the F1 blogs, never have I seen so much comments, it’ll take days to read all of them.

    MAYHEM and TEAM MATES war will be the flavour as from now. Which team will be next. Let’s make a bet McLaren or Ferrari?

    1. LondonRacer
      2nd June 2010, 10:11

      Kubica or Petrov? :D

  93. I’ve got an idea…

    How about we ask two independent motor insurance companies to discuss who’s at fault, one acting as Vettel’s insurance and the Webber’s.

    I wonder who’s gonna lose their no-claims bonus…

    1. I beleive I can assist you in that regard, seeing as I work in the insurance industry & have done for the past 11 years. I even work in dispute resolution !

      Based on the Australian Road Rules, specifically rule 140 which states “No overtaking unless safe to do so. A driver must not overtake a vehicle unless:
      (a) the driver has a clear view of any approaching traffic;
      and
      (b) the driver can safely overtake the vehicle”.

      So, on that basis, we would apply the excess and loss of no claims bonus to Vettel.

  94. hmmm – webber and kubica at renault for 2011?

    now that red bull have made it to the front of the grid, and feature and austrian/german star driver, they have no use for mark. expect dc’s relation to be cut as well.

    the good news is mark finally has a first-class car to demonstrate his skills, and he should be able to find another quality drive. he can add race winner on the resume, along with team and car development and driver’s assoc chair.

    i just hope renault can afford to sign mark and not petrov. i doubt any seats will change at ferrari, mclaren or merc.

    1. LondonRacer
      2nd June 2010, 10:12

      DC was also saying it was Vettel’s fault on BBC after the race, even though he looked rather uncomfortable, given he’s their 3rd driver

  95. I obviously have my opinion of the crash but my point is regarding Dr Helmut Marko.

    The unprofessionalism of his comments have been an outrage, moreso than the crash, and have undermined the authentcity of the team and their ‘our drivers are equal’ stand. Vet and Web had fractions of a second to make the decisions they made approaching turn 12…even if some were disasterous for the team. Neither decisions however were as rediculous (or disasterous for the team – in my opinion) as a man, apparently with ‘credibility’ and some sort of PhD, with minutes, hours and days to condsider his comments, to blame Webber publicly on numerous occasions to numerous sources. These statements have lost him any credibility he possessed and I hope he will never be asked an opinion again.

  96. Blaming Webber is ridiculous. I am a really fat fool with hypertension; it is solely the fault of the overpriced filth in a tin I drink called Red Bull.

  97. Go Webber!!! win the championship!

  98. Vettel is spoiled brat… he’s totally wrong, so pity (for Mark) the bossess is behind Vettel.

  99. Part of the answer is that the RBR06 is such a great handling machine , but I’m wondering where Webber suddenly found the form in the last three races , to go ahead of Vettel and win races ? Up to 3 races ago , he always gave me the impression of being a kind of mid-field driver. Maybe he drinks more of the product of the team he drives for all of a sudden? Jokes aside , that’s what I think is Helmut Marko’s problem now , he had Webber as a solid driver , probably able to help a lot with car development , but never saw he would threaten Vettel , now that’s exactly what’s happening.

  100. OPEN YOUR EYES! the crash was NOT a sideways crash. If you look at the video the crah is cuased by a difference in speed of the cars. Its not the side of one car hitting the other side. Its de front of a wheel against the back of a wheel. You cannot ignore the facts. You have to ask who caused the sudden difference in speed. Clearly Webber took the foot of the accelerator and caused the crash. Why he did this is a mistery, but that he did this is a fact – just listen to the sounds of teh engine from the onboard video during the crash.

    1. Brake Bias
      3rd June 2010, 7:32

      wow, I didn’t know there was a camera in the cockpit watching the pedals ………..

      1. lol, that’s new… a camera in the pedal hahaha

  101. I don’t think the team was right to support Vettel publicly after the incident… and at the same time, I don’t think Vettel did anything wrong by attempting a move on Webber. Even if it is a half chance, drivers are there to take it… otherwise what is the point in racing??? I don’t know why, but many of us think drivers shouldn’t attempt an overtaking move on his team-mate.

    Why would drivers avoid overtaking moves in favor of the team result… instead, I would say, while overtaking whoever is likely to lose the battle should play safe by letting the advantaged team-mate to pass. Well, that is just my opinion.

  102. vettel is too stupid to be a WC. “mark should let him pass” – uahahaha :)

    1. No,but doing that right ,left move was just a bad move on a team mate…any one have a youtube of LH and JB showing how to race team mates in 2010 Turkey GP…now that was fun to watch…if only their coud fix the aero package ,so we could see this all the time!!!

  103. Most of the comments here in favor of Webber is clearly biased by the fact that he is Aussie (with a very nice charming accent) and in any conflict between 2 F1 drivers You would naturally favor the one from within the old english empire vs. someone from somewhere else. At F1.com the votes about who was at fault is much more divided, so when some of You claim that almost everyone blames Vettel, it is simply not true.
    If I where a Redbull team fan, I would blame Webber for not adheering to the teams policy (any teams policy) – give Your teammate room at the track.
    Most of You claim he did give Vettel enough room, but clearly he didn’t – they had an accident.
    Many are more or less fan of specific drivers, despite the fact that the driver, excuse me for the simplification, is only the pilot. The real hero in F1 is the team effort, beginning with the designers.
    If I owned an F1 team, and the drivers in this way put their own ego clearly above the teams best interest, then they would be in serious trouble…

    1. OK. But let me say that until this event, it was Vettel who had the golden brand as the fun-loving scamp who gave his cars interesting names and always had a smile on his face. I think his amazing transformation from a netter Typ into a terrible hissing cockroach, to apply a literary reference, is what explains the voting. Regarding F1.com, I assume you are aware that this is the official, and carefully sanitized mouthpiece of F1 management?

  104. The truth has been taken down…”This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Formula One Management. “…sorry but it will live for ever…just some place else on the web.

  105. This guy Marko is unbelievable. RBR should do two things to help the company restore some public trust in them after the PR disaster by senior members. First they should send Marko packing and fire him, secondly they should publicly apologize to Mark Webber.

    1. strongly agree with “car driver’. So bias while his little child is 100% at fault. He made a story like Hamiltons pressure etc. bla bla blah. He should be fired.

  106. He didn’t swing into MW, SV’s rear hit MW front,bottom line is MW when right,SV when left to pass ,MW them when left, SV still managed to get passed the center line of MW car,he should have given his Team Mate a little room,just like LH an JB did in their dual.

  107. The way i saw it from the outset and still do is that they are both at fault. Ok so Vettel caused the contact by edging right at the last moment but Mark is not an innocent party in all of this. He gave Vettel minimal space and was asking for trouble imo. Watch the onboard footage and you will see from Marks car that Mark actually edges left himself to the point where it was lucky that they didnt make contact earlier down the straight. Both are naughty and should get a telling off!!

  108. DB4 GT Zagato
    4th June 2010, 4:55

    Helmut Marko = dimwit who knows not about racing.

  109. this DJ and robby are sticky little creatures on this issue aren’t they? Well a little note for RBR’s Marko, we Webber supporters want to put it behind us for his good and the good of other drivers in your programme. So spare us a favour and stop rubbing our nose in it so we can get some closure .. note we can’t unsubscribe to what we subsribed to on the blog and we keep getting this incredible dribble from your protaganists.

  110. Was Vettel going to make the corner, unlikely from the position he held, So Lewis would have gone pass both RBR cars if Webber had moved right. His initial poor judgement is the problem and not the accident. His after crash actions are inexcusable from adult. He is a man after all, not a boy.

  111. Not enough space? Did Horner expect Vettel to make that move even if Webber wasn’t there? Should Webber expect the young punk to be a reckless juvenile? It would seem so!

    If you go up to the biggest kid in the playground and poke him in the eye, you shouldn’t be surprised when he turns around and kicks your head in. You’ll always come off worst. An important lesson in there me thinks.

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