Red Bull’s Helmut Marko says “Webber should have let Vettel pass” (Video)

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Marko (right) believes Webber should have moved over for Vettel
Marko (right) believes Webber should have moved over for Vettel

Red Bull motorsport consultant Helmut Marko has reiterated his belief that Mark Webber was solely to blame for his collision with Sebastian Vettel which put both cars out of the lead of the Turkish Grand Prix.

Speaking to Speed TV Marko said:

Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower, and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton. So if he would have stayed behind Mark, he would have been overtaken. So he had to do something. And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.
Helmut Marko

Update: Red Bull have put out a video in which Mark Webber discusses the crash. See below.

Marko added that Vettel, who now trails Webber by 15 points in the drivers’ championship, had been “unlucky” not to score again:

It?s unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is. He showed so much speed, and if you have all these incidents it?s unbelievable how strong his morale and commitment still is. To make points in this new points system is the most important thing. And now Vettel has two zeroes.
Helmut Marko

Red Bull have come under criticism for their support of Vettel in the immediate aftermath of the crash. Team boss Christian Horner also said Webber should not have forced Vettel onto the dirty part of the track.

Most people outside the team appear to blame Vettel for the collision – including 74% in a poll of over 4,000 fans conducted by F1 Fanatic.

Webber discusses the collision rather cagily in this video for Red Bull. He said:

Unfortunately, Sebastien tried a move. For both of us, in the end, it didn’t work out for both of us and we made contact. And it’s a real shame for the team, obviously, because we lost a good opportunity to win the race. One of us could have won it and in the end we only got one third place.
Mark Webber

Vettel and Webber collide

Image (C) Red Bull/Getty images

372 comments on “Red Bull’s Helmut Marko says “Webber should have let Vettel pass” (Video)”

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  1. WHAT A COUPLE of *******…
    Their main concern is that Vettel is a Red Bull kid (and marketing puppy), and WEbber isn’t.
    Vettel made a stupid move on the dirty side of the track and moved right in the worst possible moment. Webber just hold his line…what is the right thing to do when you’re leading the race…and WC.
    Marko and Horner cannot stand the fact that Mark is their No.1 driver at the moment.
    And Vettel sure overheard the famous Webber’s “Britney’s in the wall mate!” antics in Williams.
    What a stupid young man…
    Go Aussie!

    1. we all saw it, it was mostly if not all vettel’s fault. RBR PR is just ridiculous. if they don’t want to be harsh on vettel for whatever reason, blame both of them. but there is absolutely no way that could be considered entirely webber’s fault. and i don’t think they understand the point of racing if that is their true stance (that webber should have let him through).

      i don’t think they believe what they’re saying, they just want to preserve vettel’s image. now vettel just looks like a child who’s misbehaved and won’t take any responsibility for his actions and his mum gives him a lolly.

      1. … I hate to play the role of the devil… but isn’t it true that Vettel had his car ahead of Marks? and isn’t it true that Vettel had the inside line?

        So I could argue that Mark should have yielded…

        But of course I won’t because it was a racing incident… s**t happens, and in F1, it happens often.

    2. I believe its more to do with nationality as well, Christian Horner always said how the team treats both drivers equally and blah blah blah! After today this is no longer apparent. This is just bs. I’ve had enough of RBR cr@p, its clearly Vettels fault and they blamed Webber and even the bosses supported Vettel. I was a RBR supporter at the start of the year after turkey its over for me. I’ll still go for Webber but no longer Vettel. The team let me down as a supporter.

      1. and why hasn’t vettel at the very least apologised for his ‘retard’ hand motions? or the team reprimanded him? this is just the most unprofessional handling of the situation from vettel, marko and christian. i’m just glad webber’s showing some maturity and restraint. he must be absolutely fuming.

        1. They did exactly the opposite by consoling him at the pit wall.

          Vettel is RedBull’s child and their attitude reminded me of spoiling children by giving them a pat on the back for doing something wrong, rather than scolding them for being in the wrong.

          Way to go RedBull!

          1. Redbull – The racist parent of a spoilt child?
            sounds fairly well spot on – I had to google Helmut Marko as i was convinced he must have been German (not but close)
            And the ‘Retard hand’ – is Vettel a schoolboy or a professional?

    3. By the way I’m suggesting that people let their feelings known on the RBR website;
      here is your opportunity:–Not-A-Result-To-Savour-021242854675153

      1. Thanks for the link i gave it to them. At least they should have Vettel apologizing for his antics after the race, if not for the crash he caused with his move.

        1. This may just see Webber move to Ferrari next year.

      2. I can only hope that Mark Webber reads that too.

      3. cheers for the link I let them know how disgusted I was…awful behavior I hope they apologise to Webber.

      4. (What I wrote on the site thanks for the link)

        I feel that Vettel is Red Bulls darling. I had respect for you guys until I saw the way you are spoiling Vettel. Mark Webber was clearly holding his line and was in the right.
        You say you give both drivers equal treatment. But the way Christian and Marko both spoke against Mark clearly shows the teams preference for Vettel. I am absolutely disgusted by Red Bull racing and the way you treated Mark Webber. Mark deserves better. He is a top driver who stayed professional when Vettel came on the inside and defended his position well.
        I think Christian Horner, Marko and Sebastien Vettel all expected Mark to move to one side and let Vettel take victory and quite possibly the championship. I have lost respect both for Christian Horner and Red Bull Racing. The incident was 100% Vettel’s fault. Mark Webber deserves better and I suggest he goes to Ferrari next season. I would not be surprised if Red Bull lose their fan support after this. I will definitely support Webber but not Vettel. Vettel cannot overtake. So I suggest he goes back to Karting. Shame on you Christian Horner and Red Bull Racing.

      5. Thanks, I posted my displeasure with Vettel’s move on Mark. I was never an RBR fan but after Lewis & Jensen my vote always went to our Australian cousin!!

      6. Done and done, and beleive me I didn’t mince my words.

      7. Here’s what I posted:

        Mark down another vote in support of Mark. Red Bull management has performed the remarkable feat of making Sebastian’s on-track faux pas look relatively minor. His lapse in judgment can at least be partially excused by red mist (if not Red Bull); Mr. Horner and Mr. Marko should know better.

    4. Breza,

      What is this famous momment of “Britney’s in the wall mate!” about?

      Any linky to a video or article?


      1. I think he’s referring to the 2006 Brizillian GP incident when Rosberg ran into the back of (his then teamate) Webber’s car in turn 4 on the first lap. Rosberg damaged his node cone and front win while Webber had a damaged defuser and rear wing. They both raced each other back to the pits so as to be the first one to get serviced, but becuase Rosberg’s damage was easier to fix, the team orders were “Priority Nico”. At one point while they were running side by side as Rosberg attempts to overtake on the dirty side, Rosberg (missing front wing) loses it and ends up in the wall. A few moments later the team once again re-interates “Prioirty Nico, repeat prioirty Nico” to which Webber replies with something like “Don’t think so, mate. Britney’s in the wall!”.

        1. haha, thats awesome.

        2. Webber has always had a lot of respect for Rosberg’s speed



          get their comeupance.

      1. Yeah, I do see a difference. A massive one. Webber was on a straight (not yet at turn in for a corner) and kept going straight, yet Vettel steered into the side of him (moving in the opposite direction to the forthcoming turn). Schumacher, on the other hand, was on the outside of Villeneuve going into a corner and turned in on Villeneuve at the apex, thereby causing the collision. Not the same at all by a long shot.

      2. That pic is clear that Webber was to far to the left . Vetta was past the center

        1. Vettle had enough track space to take the corner if he slowed down – he could have slowed (yes he would have lost the lead).

          Instead Vettle swerved to the right and hit Webber for no real reason.

          You can’t get part way past a car and then expect them to completely move out of your way, they are only required to give enough space to stay on the track – which Webber did do.

          1. argh Vettel typos

          2. You could turn this around and say Webber had more than 4 times enough space and Vettel needed only to give him one, and the fact that he was in front and on the right side for the corner it makes more sense.

          3. Vettel moved to the right into Webber’s car, so it’s Vettel to blame, loooking at the TV picture.
            But, please check this:
            looking repeatedly at other TV pictures, from Vettel’s cockpit, I did see Vettel’s hands steering left to overtake, but I did n o t see his hands steering right, although it looks from outside as a strong move to the right. Could it be a moment of car instability? And Vettel never mentions he went right.

          4. No Ivan he dit turn right but he dit it very gently and only as they touched it looked as he turned violently because his car turned as they touched. But that is not the issue. The problem is Webber did not retrieve back to the racing line, if you look at MSC vs BUT or BUT vs HAM fight you will see that the car on the outside always goes back to the racing line, and HAM vs BUT going on the pit straight was a good example because they were right against the pit wall but as they arrived at the corner they were back on the outside and that is what everybody does unless they want it to end in tears.

    5. I agree fully, if you watch the camera view from Vettel’s onboard camera it look as if he actually rammed Mark. You can see his head even moving to the right before the contact as he turned his steering wheel.
      Go Aussie I say!

    6. im not australian or red bull fan but i got to say both pushed to far in the end vet didnt end the race cause he was the more guilty of the 2

    7. Maybe I’m just a bit slow at the moment, but can someone tell me what this “Britney’s in the wall mate!” thing is all about? Thanks in advance!

        1. i hadnt heard that story before.
          “britneys in the wall” bloddy hlarious.
          i would like to hear it said again when seb does the same thing. he is much more of a britney than nico.

    8. Vettel was doing all right. Why wont he pass through the dirty side.Is it written anywhere that a car could not pass through the dirty side. He was racing hard and agressively. Actually u people like racing to be boring. Vettel had the inside line, then the corner goes right so obviously he have to go a bit right and focus on his braking point. why will he brake at a dirty point. Webber knew he was slow but the old aussie deliberately was driving in his own straight way.He forgot that Vettel was his team mate. Dont talk rubbish. What Red Bull market kid?? He won with a Torro Rosso you maniac. And he is better than Webber.

      1. Brake Bias
        3rd June 2010, 5:48

        @vettel, where is written the the driver being overtaken has to yield the position? That’s called racing. Nobody is calling for racing to be boring, but likewise nobody is interested in stupid driving resulting in accidents. At no point in time was Vettel fully clear of Webber when Vettel swung quickly to the right. Go back & read what Webber had to say. He did not expect Vettel to move so aggressively at that point. Vettel was playing chicken with a seasoned driver & got himself plucked. Maybe he needs to learn a little from this incident.

        1. “And he is better than Webber”

          Yer thats why his way above him in the championship, oh what a second no he isn’t.

  2. Marko and Horner are completely delusional!
    EVERYONE else knows the crash was Vettel’s fault and not Webber’s

    1. No one is delusional. From a teams perspective they want each team mate to give each other space, which is fair enough the points mean more to the team whoever wins it would still be 1-2.

      So from thier point of view Webber was at fault for not giving room. From a drivers perspective Vettels mistake if it was any other drive then team mate no one would care we would simply write it up as Vettels rookie error.

      1. But he ‘did’ give enough room. That’s the point.

        But he was also racing the guy. I just cannot understand this point of view but each to their own I guess. Should Massa have just let Alonso through on many occasions this season then?

        Mark wants to win the Formula One World Championship – his dream since a small boy and now he finally has a chance – probably his last. Why should the guy ‘move over?’

        By the way, wasn’t it a little strange to ask Marj to turn his engine down then, and not later in the race? It clearly wasn’t critical as seen from his fast laps at the end of the race.

      2. When Horner says “not giving enough space”, they surely mean Webber didn’t roll out the red carpet for Vettel to waltz down on.

        Seriously he had more than a car width of space, what they complain about is that webber didn’t give in meekly. Why should he.

        1. Yes, Marko said it clearly, the only mistake was Mark not being told or refusing to do so. It was a clear team order!

      3. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 9:43

        Not Helmut’s view at all – Helmut said that Mark “should have let” Vettel through. He’s just blaming Mark when he should be blaming himself and Vettel. Mark maybe should have given more room, but Vettel caused the accident, therefore it was entirely Vettel’s fault.

        What kind of team is that? Mark will be furious. I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.

        1. “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”


        2. “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”


          1. hah i’ll second that, or 427th that!

          2. Jose Arellano
            1st June 2010, 18:48

            “I hope he goes on a rampage and demolishes Vettel this season.”

            + 99999!

          3. That’s over 9000!

      4. Brake Bias
        3rd June 2010, 5:58

        @CapeFear, I must be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the FIA had outlawed these sort of “team orders” to achieve contrived results.

    2. Prisoner Monkeys
      1st June 2010, 9:40

      Marko and Horner are completely delusional!

      And everyone in this thread is completely over-reacting.

      1. What you are seeing here PM is public opinion… and RBR have most definitely seriously shot themselves in the foot with this one.

        Horner is merrily painting away with the brush, while Marko is holding the bucket of Tar.

        1. Good call PM. F1Droid; here’s some public opinion. Who cares what the public thinks when its all rubbish?

          -“shot themselves in the foot”
          What are you talking about.. public opinion? Oh, I’m sure that sales for Red Bull cars will drop dramatically… oh wait, they don’t make those. Well, then surely Vodka/Red Bull drinks will falter here in the States… oh wait, people love alcohol and staying up late to drink alcohol.

          They made an exciting race that either would have ended with a great pass or a racing incident- the latter occurring it was largely the best dry race of the year.


      2. Agree with Prisoner Monkeys.

        It was a racing incident and the team weren’t quick enough to send a “coded” message to Webber.

        If they wanted a 1-2, Webber should have told indirectly to let Vettel through. Webber was slow as he was saving fuel. Vettel should gone through, taken the win, while Webber should have held up Lewis and taken 2nd…thats team work!

        Its simple logic! No one is siding Vettel or Webber…the blame lies with the team management, they’re the one who f$%ked this up

        1. but why shouldn’t vettel hold up hamilton and let webber win?

          1. Exactly, this is RACING!!! There is no number 1 driver in the team at this moment and Webber was leading. Vettel should have been holding the pack up and ensured the 1-2 that way.

            There are other ways they are giving an advantage to Webber, allowing him to run quali behind Webber even though it was Webber’s turn to start last and also allowing Vettel to pit before Webber even though Webber was in the lead and should be given preference.

          2. Typo… Vettel getting the advantage.

        2. If they wanted a 1-2 the simple logic would have been to keep things as they were with Webber in 1st and Vettel in 2nd, and use Vettel to fend off Hamilton, and let the two McLaren’s fight each other for third. Instead what Red Bull attempted to do was slide Webber who was the race leader back to second to fend off Hamilton in third place and hand the lead to Vettel on a silver platter. What sort of logic is that? It isn’t. At best it’s screwed strategy, at worse it’s favouritism.

          1. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 14:29

            Look at it this way:

            Helmut said two things:
            1: Vettel was faster than Webber
            2: If Vettel didn’t pass Webber, he’d get passed by Hamilton.

            So therefore, one can assume if Vettel got past Webber, Hamilton would have passed Webber.

            Therefore it would be, at best, a 1-3, if not a 1-4, which, “oddly” enough would give Sebastien an even bigger advantage in the championship.

            They could make a movie out of this.

          2. Helmut Marko’s whole argument is a blatant lie.

            Hamilton wasn’t putting pressure on Vettel and Webber wasn’t gowing slower and slower.

            In reality Vettel suddenly started going 3 tenths a lap faster for the last 3 laps. He was gaining on Webber and getting away from Hamilton.

            I guess he thinks we are so darn stupid that we cannot find the timesheets on the FIA website.

        3. The fact that Red Bull is using team orders is what is getting people riled up.

          1. Jose Arellano
            1st June 2010, 18:52

            the same situation happened with alonso in australia and he just kept hamilton at bay

          2. How so and what year was that?

      3. I think you’re confusing the reaction to the crash to the reaction to how RBR handled it. Had they just left the crash at what it was – an honest mistake by Vettel, then the reaction would be nowhere near as severe as this.

        But RBR chose to publicly support Vettel and blame Mark, flying completely in the face of overwhelming opinion both inside and outside the paddock. The fans are just reacting to that by criticizing the team.

    3. Marko is a disgrace. Put simply, the ONLY people who do not put the majority of the blame on Vettel have a bias towards him. Any reasonable neutral observer would not blame Mark. Red Bull spend millions of dollars on their team for branding, and then F#*! it up by what is in effect discrimination in the workplace, which in any normal arena would violate equal employment opportunity regulations.

      I will never buy a can of Red Bull again. If Webber had signed a contract to be number 2 this would be different. But he was leading the race, had just won the previous two races start to finish, had led every single lap of the Turkish race after qualifying on pole. In the circumstances, to turn down his engine to “save fuel” is a revolting decision.

      I do not believe “save fuel” for a second. Mark drove le mans cars, there are many ways to save fuel for the lap he was supposedly over on consumption. You could roll out of the throttle earlier at the end of straights, use a higher gear in corners where it is not possible to overtake. That could have been done to save fuel, whilst still allowing Webber to blast down the back straight at full speed. I do not believe this “save fuel” scenario! It is code for team orders, pure and simple!!

      1. Vettel apprently claimed his car “lost it” under breaking and that pulled him to the right, which is plausible considering that the car would have been cleaner on one side. So there is an argument that webber should have given more space but no matter how you justify it at most the blame was 50-50.

        1. vettel didn’t lose it. you can see from the on board he steers right. as does webber in fact to give vettel space. vettel just used more than was there. just a critical error of judgement on vettel’s behalf

        2. The crash occured well before the braking zone. Look at the video. Vettel was trying to position himself better FOR the braking zone. Webber knew that and was playing his card of holding his line. Vettel chose the dirty side and knew he would struggle to stop. Webber also knew this, the exact reason he kept him pinned there. But Vettel initiated the move to the inside and initiated the move to the right to bully Webber. Therefore the fault is more on Vettels side. Webber is not blameless, but this is now more about the management position than the crash.

          1. I agree with almost everything you’ve said, saves me writing it again. I think the fault is Vettel’s 100% for one simple reason; he’s the one overtaking therefore he has to make the manouvre

          2. Exactly. Plus this is not the first time he has done this and then denied all wrong doing. Remember a certain pit incident when Hamilton and Vettel were alongside, Again an incident where both drivers refused to give way but vettel turned right to try to drive hamilton into the pit equipment (bearing in mind Vettel had practically a cars width on his left hand side).

            Also I have heard that Hamilton was complaining to webber that vettel had also steared towards him during the Turkey race. If it took that crash to teach him a lesson then so be it as I do think Vettel is a good driver, but he needed to be brought down a peg or two. However I am afraid red bulls inexplicable siding with him will just make things worse.

        3. bernification
          1st June 2010, 10:44

          Which may be true had he started braking, but he hadn’t.

      2. Ted Kravitz during the Red Button showed us how Vettel was suddenly quicker than Webber on lap 36 for 3 laps. If this “fuel save” was true, how was Vettel all of a sudden quicker than Webber for 3 laps? Horner said Vettel had 1 more lap of optimum fuel usage, not 3. Hmm……

        1. He had one more lap left, ie. turn 12 was the last overtaking opportunity before he had to switch into fuel save mode at the end of that lap.
          Hence SV being being so desperate to pass because it was his last real chance to do so unless Mark made a mistake.

      3. If he really had to save fuel he wouldn’t have been able to do a pit in-out, a fastest lap and fight with Schumacher with damaged aero / board and a complete warmdown lap.

        If he turns down though, the team sees it, he expects the team to put in a hold station or give him the call to get back on it to save Seb from Hamilton. The team weren’t talking and tried to trap him …. all the process going through his mind as he sees Seb having his run. Then he says give him enough room to hang himself and thinking I’ll get back and he can be in Hamilton’s clutches.

        Not many saying that Webber isn’t a great racer now. Hard but fair.

      4. For Simon,

        Tears and a tiny violin.

  3. That’s a pretty clear cut favoritism statement there…

  4. HounslowBusGarage
    1st June 2010, 9:07

    “It’s unbelievable how unlucky Vettel is.”
    Is it? On the face of it, Vettel doesn’t look terribly skilled at overtaking.

    1. Doesn’t have much of a record for passing people, does he? A few dominant wins and awesome speed in the wet, but I don’t remember any fighting ones.

      Not the first time he’s smacked into Webber either, remember that wet race behind the safety car…

      1. +1

        This isn’t the first time Vettel has hit Webber, I’m sure that it will be mentioned as well.

      2. Really hate to bang out an “I told you so” BUT I DID, I KEPT ON SAYING THIS. lol, sorry, self congratulation is ugly.

        Still Vettle is not a fighter, he is now, not a fighter under preassure, resulting in misguided agression towards his teamate an other drivers, Hamilton for instance is taking a lot of it, maybe because of his reputation (China+Istanbul) and, I almost think his doing it lest he be found out, as not the full package and definatley not the superstar he’s painted as.

  5. Maybe so Helmut, but that still doesn’t change the fact that Vettel drove into Mark.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 9:45

      Hear hear! Just don’t understand why Red Bull are at such pains to deny it.

      1. Bigbadderboom
        1st June 2010, 11:52

        Deflecting the blame, I think its more a case of defending Vettel than blaming Mark. I think they are aware that Vettels image is becoming slightly tarnished with his unforced errors and car breaking activities. And the fact is Vettel has a far longer career left, I think Red Bull are just sticking with their man, and probably not fully aware of how biased they sound.

        1. But it would look a LOT better with his image, if he was in the video instead of Mark and apologizes to his team for a badly effected move and to Mark for his antics after getting out of the car.
          That would make him be seen as a fair guy who owns up to his mistakes.

          Button did apologize to Hamilton about the situation.

          1. I dont see what Button had to apologise to Hamilton for. Whats he gonna say “Im sorry I raced you.”?.

            If it was Hamilton in that situation he would have done the same, and infact would have been really proud of himself too.

  6. Mark Webber *did* let Vettel past.
    He didn’t make it easy for him, but he didn’t stop the move either.
    Vettel made a hash of it.

    For Marko to come out in public and blame Webber for it is bad management in the extreme. With DC on board, Red Bull had the perfect man to advise them how to deal with things – but evidently didn’t use him.

    Never mind what all the fans say in polls on the internet – every single professional in the paddock that was on the BBC said the same thing – The team had every right to be annoyed, but that they would have to manage the situation properly unless they wanted things to implode and destroy their season. In fact, Vettel was far more professional, circumspect and vague in his post-race comments than the team management themselves. He may have made heat of the moment gestures getting out of the car, but that’s acceptable. Red Bull are beyond “shooting themselves in the foot” with this one, it’s a total disaster.

    The biggest story of ineptitude of the whole thing however, is this: Brundle, DC, Ted, EJ had a long conversation about how much they’d want to be a fly on the pitwall when Vettel came out, and assumed he wouldn’t. There was a massive media riot outside the motorhome trying to get his first interview. Then he appeared on the pitwall, and talked to his engineers, and the BBC camera was right there…….

    ….. and Legard talked over it. About nothing. Brundle must be on the verge of strangling the guy.

    1. Sush Meerkat
      1st June 2010, 9:40

      Well its Martin Brundle’s birthday today, we should send him some Gaffer Tape.

      1. “Well its Martin Brundle’s birthday today, we should send him some Gaffer Tape.”


    2. “and Legard talked over it. About nothing. Brundle must be on the verge of strangling the guy.”

      Johnathan Legard is an idiot, and does not deserve to be commentating on this sport at this level. Maybe he should do post race-analysis for CBEEBIES, but certainly should not be alongside Martin Brundle (one of the most clued-up ex-F1 drivers of all time) and DC/EJ.

      1. bernification
        1st June 2010, 10:47

        And for god sake can he stop talking about a ‘front nose’!

        What, you have one on the back of your head too. (Insert comment about being two faced here).

      2. yeh, why did he keep saying this was mclaren’s first chance at victory in turkey and then when they won, this is their first victory in turkey. if i’m not mistaken, kimi won the first race there in 2005…

        1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! So he it was! :-D

        2. I was frustrated at him all weekend for constantly saying that.

    3. my thoughts exactly about ledgard, the p country hick,in future “jonathon” learn when to stay quiet.was inexcusable for a so called profesional commentator to do that,get rid and replace him.

      1. The problem with Legard is that he was a radio commentator, and still feels a need to talk constantly as though we can’t see what’s happening and therefore haven’t a clue unless he describes it. He hasn’t learned when to shut up. He also misses things that we _do_ see, and mis-identifies drivers as he comments.
        Can someone call ITV and get James Allen back?

        1. ConcedoNulli
          1st June 2010, 19:03

          No not James Allen. If Legard is to be replaced make it David Croft

          1. On the F1 forum (red button) they’re making use of Mr Davidson, I wonder if they’re thinking of doing a 2 ex driver commentator pair? Having said that the radio commentary will be all the poorer if that were the case.

  7. Sounds much like team orders then, why would Mark just let Vettel through when he is fighting for the lead of the race and the lead of the World Drivers Championship! So in races to come whenever Webber sees Vettel behind him he is supposed to let him through, what a load of rubbish. RBR needs to take a good hard look at themselves and can be sure that there are so many more F1 fans out there that would rather see Webber take the trophy from that stroppy little brat.

  8. The ridiculous thing is is that once Vettel was clearly alongside, Webber did nothing more to stop him – it’s Vettel who clearly turned into Webber. The spin they’re putting on this is ridiculous. Webber must feel all kinds of loyalty to his team right about now.

  9. The Nude Wizard
    1st June 2010, 9:35

    Also i have a conspiracy theory for you;

    There have been rumours of Mark going to Ferrari, and further the deals already done for 2 years, This makes sense to me as Webber has a lot of Red Bull/Newey info rolling around in his noggin Ferrari would love to know as they’re not finding the answers they need atm performance wise.

    If Mark were to win the WDC, he takes #1 with him to Ferrari, i cant imagine Red Bull would be too happy about this and them favouring Vettel makes a lot more sense than just the age old “golden haired boy” accusations.

    Of course none of this is based on any facts, just from my own musings.

    1. I have another conspiracy theory.

      From what I can gather Vettel doesn’t have an official manager like most other drivers do.

      Therefore is it possible given that Vettel doesn’t have an official manager that Marko is unofficially filling the void? He has officially managed other drivers in the past.

      If he is unofficially filling the management void it would go someway towards explaining why Marko blames Webber when pretty everyone else can agree that Vettel was at fault.

      This is just my personal theory.

      1. Marko was head of the Red Bull young driver development program, and his “star” graduate is Vettel.

      2. The Nude Wizard
        1st June 2010, 10:58

        That is interesting, i didnt know that, and may explain Markos motivation in one. But it doesnt explain why Horner insinuated blame in his first interview after the race without going that far after the race, and in his subsesquent interview during the BBC Forum going a little further and blaming Mark outright.

        James Allen also recounts a story on his website yesterday of Horner and Markos in serious discussions after Webbers previous win, looking less than pleased they had just won a GP. And Webbers wife also making comments along those lines

        I think much of his blog post on the matter and all the other little pieces of info and rumour leaking out recently lend themselves to something just a little more.. Saucy, lets say ;)

    2. As much as I hate to spread conspiracy theories, your theory does make a _lot_ of sense.

  10. Marko is a disgrace. Put simply, the ONLY people who do not put the majority of the blame on Vettel have a bias towards him. Any reasonable neutral observer would not blame Mark. Red Bull spend millions of dollars on their team for branding, and then F#*! it up by what is in effect discrimination in the workplace, which in any normal arena would violate equal employment opportunity regulations.

    I will never buy a can of Red Bull again. If Webber had signed a contract to be number 2 this would be different. But he was leading the race, had just one the previous two races start to finish, had led every single lap of the Turkish race after qualifying on pole. In the circumstances, to turn down his engine to “save fuel” is a revolting decision.

    I do not believe “save fuel” for a second. Mark drove le mans cars, there are many ways to save fuel for the lap he was supposedly over on consumption. You could roll out of the throttle earlier at the end of straights, use a higher gear in corners where it is not possible to overtake. That could have been done to save fuel, whilst still allowing Webber to blast down the back straight at full speed. I do not believe this “save fuel” scenario! It is code for team orders, pure and simple!!

    1. Marko had a curtailled driving career and is but a footnote in history (wiki him). He is trying to live out his unfullfilled driving ambitions through Vettel. Put an icing of pan german nationalism over it and then sprinkle it with the fact that Marko sees Vettel as the cherry of his young drivers programme and Mark as a mutt that clawed his way to the seat and you have the whole cake. Plenty bad formula in there.

  11. I am simply flabbergasted by the fact that RBR don’t seem to have a spin doctor or head of PR on board that tells the management to SHUT the hell UP about their feelings about the accident when talking to the press. They could and should have handled this like every other team that has been in such a situation before: say that they are extremely disappointed about the result and will talk to the drivers about what happened on the track. That should have been all! Any digging by journalists about who’s fault it was could have been met with: “We will look at the data and solve the problem within the team.” All they have done now is give everybody something to fuss over by showing a weak spot.
    Of course, we cannot analyse the car data, do not know the RBR race plan and haven’t heard the board radio of either driver. For all we know RBR might have had a sound reason for wanting their drivers to swap positions, but it looked bad to the outsider and they’ve only managed to make it worse. I hope this doesn’t start to drive a wedge between the team mates.

  12. “Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower, and Vettel was getting faster and was coming under enormous pressure from Hamilton.”

    Wow. Ridiculous.

  13. Mark Webber is a man , while Vettel is still a boy. So Webber will have got over it already , but then he must move to a new team next year so he can have support and will win a WDC.

  14. MouseNightshirt
    1st June 2010, 9:50

    Here’s a question. Will Mark now want to stay with Red Bull after this debacle. Everyone was all whistling along to the one year contract before, but Mark may want a way out after this.

    Stefano Domenicalli said he was keeping Massa, but if he was going to get rid of him, I think he’d rather have Kubica. So Mark to Renault in that case? Renault would absolutely love to have him. Red Bull chassis knowledge to go along with the identical engine, would be a big coup.

    1. and he was a renault prodigy back in the day. that is to say he tested with them in 2003…

      1. MouseNightshirt
        1st June 2010, 14:31

        Good point.

        A small vindictive part of me wants Webber to win the WDC this year, then move to Renault, take whatever secrets he can remember in his head and then have Renault demolish RBR next year.

        But honestly, that would be so sweet on the tongue!

        …gotta stop this Mouse!

    2. The driver market among the top few teams doesn’t appear to have much room for change next year. Where could Webber go that would afford him another decent shot at the WDC? Even though I am at heart a McLaren fan, last weekends debacle leaves me kind of hoping that Webber can prevail THIS year, and rub Vettel’s (and Marko’s) nose in it! This could be his last chance if he doesn’t want to, or is not allowed to, carry on with Red Bull. Time will tell, of course, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

    1. Prisoner Monkeys
      1st June 2010, 9:56

      Internet petitions don’t work. The only one that I know of was the one appealing to CBS to keep “Jericho” on the air … and then they cancelled it six months later.

      1. LOL but didn’t they also send boxes and boxes of nuts to the network.

  15. Prisoner Monkeys
    1st June 2010, 9:54

    I think everyone needs to take a minute here. Assuming Vettel was to blame for the accident, how exactly did the world fall apart? He caused the accident, and retired. Webber recovered and took third, which – given his speed relative to the McLarens – was about as much as he could hope for. How exactly has “justice” (or whatever you want to call it) been delivered unfaialy?

    1. PM, this isn’t about the final race result, and how Webber came out on top with the points…

      It’s completely 100% about RBR managements handling of the situation.

      1. Prisoner Monkeys
        1st June 2010, 10:14

        Just because they disagee with you means they’re automaticlly in the wrong?

        1. MouseNightshirt
          1st June 2010, 10:29

          They disagree with the general consensus, the evidence available to the fans (which may be very different to the evidence the team has, but is irrelevant because they haven’t shared that), and thus people are questioning their reasons for marking Mark for crucifixion.

          1. As MouseNightshirt says

          2. Prisoner Monkeys
            1st June 2010, 10:58

            They disagree with the general consensus

            Where is it written that they have to? The “general consensus” was estabilished within thirty seconds of the accident – Red Bull never had a chance to explain themselves, and so anything they say will always be taken the wrong way.

            the evidence available to the fans (which may be very different to the evidence the team has, but is irrelevant because they haven’t shared that)
            And where is it written that they are obligated to share their evidence?

          3. PM

            Where does it say we should “shut up and be quiet” if we feel strongly about a situation?

          4. @PM: How have Red Bull not had a chance to explain themselves? And if they haven’t yet been able to come to a full concluson, why go making statements that put Mark Webber at fault. From the evidence available it certainly appears Vettels fault, so Red Bull have two options after making these sort of statements: provide evidence as to why it was Webber’s fault or keep quiet and receive all the bad PR coming their way.

          5. MouseNightshirt
            1st June 2010, 14:33

            Mr Monkeys:

            1: It isn’t written they have to agree with it, they just don’t, therefore it’s being questioned.

            2: I’ve not said they should share it at all. What I’m saying is that it’s irrelevant to the fans _unless_ they decide to share it, at which point we’d be able to take it into consideration.

        2. well it’s very much like disciplining a child as a parent. if your child does something wrong, you make it clear to them that it’s unacceptable. you don’t pat them on the back and tell them it’s ok and that it was the other person’s fault. vettel needs to learn to take responsibility and stand on his own. how would you feel if you were mark? taken out of the lead by your team mate and then blamed for it. how could he not get a sense of bias?
          at least he’s shown the maturity to handle the situaion professionally

        3. PM – do you seriously belive that RedBull didn’t have an opportunity to explain themselves? I don’t think people are over-reacting at all. There’s nothing wrong with a team having a no.1 whom they favour, implicitly or implicitly – but what RedBull are doing here is basically mud-slinging at Webber in an attempt to take the blame for the accident off Vettel. And that’s a pretty crappy thing to do.

          1. *implicitly or explicitly*

        4. PM, try & take Mark Webber and your dislike of him (forgive me, but it doth have shades of tall poppy syndrome about it) out of the equation. Pretend it was another driver & team. Then after having done that, tell me if you still think ‘the team’ are justified with their carry on?

    2. It is the revelation of clear bias towards Vettel and the ramifications that may have for the rest of the year, not the crash itself. How is that difficult to understand??

    3. The Nude Wizard
      1st June 2010, 10:21


      “given his speed relative to the McLarens – was about as much as he could hope for.”

      Just gotta have a dig at Webber while you’re at it. He was leading the race, made it thought the pit stops. Being setup by your team and made to turn down your engine and passed in lieu of team orders which are illegal is one thing, but Webber was being given curry by Hamilton for a long time and as Webber said, he’d have never got past without me making a mistake and he’d know a little bit more than you I reckon ;)

      Marko said Seb needed to get past or he would be taken by Hamilton, his gap was steady the 7 laps previous to his overtake.

      An outright lie

      Horner said Vettel had 1 more litre of fuel than Webber at that point so could be on the high revs longer, I think i read here some place it takes about 3 litres per lap.. On top of that lap times would indicate Webber was forced to turn down his engine a couple of laps earlier, not one..

      Are you starting to get how what they say and the reality arent quite matching up here?

      That’s why people are a little annoyed, not just because Vettels a mong and stuck his car into his team mate.

      1. “Marko said Seb needed to get past or he would be taken by Hamilton, his gap was steady the 7 laps previous to his overtake.”

        well if webber can hold of hamilton for 30 odd laps but vettel can’t take 7 laps, this must be red bull’s way of admitting webber is simply a better driver than vettel.

    4. PM, it is always fun playing devil’s advocate but generally I live by Occam’s Razor. In this case the simplest fact is that Vettel turned in to Webber, Vettel was allowed to pit before Webber (even though the team is supposed to allow the leader the right to pit first), Vettel started quali in behind Webber (even though it was Webber’s turn, look at the post-quali press conference) and management is blaming Webber. Vettel also had extra opportunity to drive with new parts this weekend over Webber before they were added to his car.

      The world didn’t fall apart but the actions of Vettel cost the team points, Webber points and forced Vettel to retire. To imply it wasn’t his fault if he went over a bump and the car jumped right on the dirty line is plausible, not stating that and blaming Webber simply isn’t! The team is clearly favouring a driver over the other even though it has constantly stated it wouldn’t at this stage and they were free to race each other. It isn’t racing if one has to move out of the way of the other

      1. This isn’t the first time RBR have screwed Webber this season either. Melbourne pit stops strategy springs to mind.

    5. That is a great relieve, their plot with team orders back fired making it even harder for them to do it in the future with Mark ahead.

      McLaren drivers must be happy the fastest cars are fighting it out like this. Not to mention Alonso, who is still within reach because of all opportunities lost.
      Still a PR blunder, they should have made Vettel apologize for the way he acted after getting out of the car and admit he did lose the move, not Mark.

    6. Brake Bias
      2nd June 2010, 3:15

      PM, why was Webber able to reel off a succession of fastest laps after the accident and still finish the race if he was meant to be on fuel conserve as per the instruction from the pit lane? To me, this part of the saga needs to be investigated. Even in the laps leading up to Vettels idiotic move, both were comfortably ahead of the McLarens & had the reserve speed to counter any move by the McLarens ie turn the wick up again.

      What most people are aggrieved about is the line taken by the RBR management in their “protect vettel at all costs attitude” and also vettels immature hand signals (twice) indicating Webber was the driver at fault.

      But then again, you have previously stated that you are not a fan of Webber. I think you are suffering from the all to common Australian affliction of “tall poppy syndrome”

      1. Did Webber take on new tyres as well as a fresh nose? – I cannot fathom why the team wouldn’t do that during a pitstop for a new nose, in any event if he and they did add fresh tyres, that would certainly explain faster laptimes.

        1. The Nude Wizard
          2nd June 2010, 8:59

          Don’t you mean a new nose and fresh tyres? haha but yes, he did and you’re right it does explain the faster lap times.

        2. Brake Bias
          3rd June 2010, 6:18

          @ MarkC, Webber did indeed take on new tyres – but why before the accident was he told to tune down the engine to conserve fuel when afterwards he was told to turn it up & push hard at the McLarens. Very inconsistent instructions to the driver here. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I can’t equate how new tyres equals turning the motor up.

  16. Seb screwed a 1-2 for the team. Some team player.

    Give a place away, what a load of rubbish. Mark has already shown this season that he will give up a place to preserve his car. Seb tried it on and should be called for what he is, a hot-head through a red mist. Telling Seb that he was right will only create more problems further down the line.

  17. RBR are really shooting themselves in the foot with this. Screencaps have clearly shown that Vettel chose to go down that side, he wasn’t “forced” at all. Webber left room, if he had moved over more he would have been conceeding the place without any fight, and as Brundle pointed out, he can’t do that if he wants to fight for the title. So Vettel is allowed to overtake, but Webber isn’t allowed to defend? Do they wonder why they’re now being accused of bias?

    And none of what Marko says changes the fact that his “unlucky” protege was the one who caused the crash. He could be leading the championship now if he hadn’t swerved right, so my heart doesn’t exactly bleed for him.

    The laptime charts really don’t back up that Vettel was under pressure of Lewis, and as for “Mark for whatever reason was slower. He was getting lap by lap slower”…um, would that have anything to do with a turned down engine that he’s conveniently not mentioned? They seem to have problems getting their story straight over that one…

  18. “Mark for whatever reason was slower.”

    Read… we told him to turn his engine down, while simultaneously telling Vettel to turn his up.

    “And Mark knew that he was slower, so he should have let him past.”

    Read… team manipulating the results in favour of their protegy.

    “Team boss Christian Horner also said Webber should not have forced Vettel onto the dirty part of the track.”

    Actually, Christian, Mark did *not* force Vettel onto the dirty side of the track… Mark, gave your lovely Sebastian a choice, and he *chose* the dirty inside line rather than the clean outside line that Button used to pass Hamilton. Once there, Mark was very professional and supplied him enough room.

    1. 100% agree F1droid. Well summed up!

    2. button also passed schumacher on the outside there early in the race, very good point. vettel made 2 wrong decisions. the line and then the right turn

    3. well put, Team orders are no longer allowed since an infamous race in Austria (say no more). Mark Webber knows this and he’s probably smart enough to play the political game. They can say whatever they like but they can’t say that they told Mark to let Seb past.

      In that case Mark already knows who’s the team favourite, could that be the motivation behind his great form of late?

  19. This clearly shows the inexperience of the Red Bull Management.

    Helmut Marko was a failure as an F1 driver, and has never done anything substantial in F1, other than running a driver training program ,to be connected with a top tier F1 racing team.

    Christian Horner stepped up from managing GP2 teams to Red Bull, and this is his first time managing a team that is the favourite to win the title in F1. Other than having that stupid smug smile on his face, Christian clearly doesn’t have anything that a top team manager should have.

    Clearly these two morons have no idea on how to handle the press at the highest level of motorsport. These statements should never have been made public, and all the issues should have been thrashed out before the media was involved.

    However, I think Mark should not give a crap about what they have to say about him, and just race his heart out to get the title this year. I think it will be a good idea for Mark to look at other teams such as Ferrari, etc.

    1. MouseNightshirt
      1st June 2010, 10:38

      “Christian clearly doesn’t have anything that a top team manager should have.”

      As much as I’m against the smearing of Webber by Red Bull, that point is simply not true. Red Bull is where it is today because of Christian managing to get a hold of Newey and build an efficient, driven team.

      What he doesn’t have experience of yet is being manager of a front running F1 team undergoing scrutiny. Last year, all the attention was on Brawn, now this year the limelight is on him, he can’t deal with it.

      1. I actually think that Horner is doing a great job. I also don’t think that Horner is biased towards either driver.

        I believe that the root cause of the perceived injustices in the RBR team stem from the aforementioned Marko. He’s been in charge of a lot of Mateschitz’s money for the young driver programme. I’m sure Mr Mateschitz is more than happy to put money into the team, but a driver programme is a whole different kettle of fish. Therefore if Marko’s grand plan and star pupil is not finishing as highly as an older driver who came with a batch of Renault engines, he is going to be going for Marko’s head (and Horner and any other high-heid-yin who are unlucky enough to be caught in the firing line).

        As I’ve said previously, Horner and Webber are in cahoots for their MW-Arden GP3 team, so I think that Horner is playing the “Severus Snape” in the RBR garage to Marko’s Voldemort, with Webber Harry Potter and Sebastian Vettel rapidly becoming Draco Malfoy.

        1. OH DEAR GOD!!! You didn’t just compare F1 to Harry Potter? That’s awful!

          1. I agree. Not all of us F1 fans follow Harry Potter. Ive completely missed your point.

          2. RandomChimp
            1st June 2010, 15:05

            I actually thought it was a rather good analogy :D

    2. Actually, i get the feeling Horner is doing what he can.
      In the firs interview he was covering up nice, saying the cars “were running the same as far as he was aware”.

      After hearing from Marko (and the telephone call from big Dieter) he changed that to a stance with more emphasis on Mark being to blame.
      The team bosses are 100% behind Vettel winning it, but Horner knows he needs Mark as well to do it.
      what a mess and blundering, this team still has a lot to learn.

    3. “Helmut Marko was a failure as an F1 driver”

      Er, do you know why Helmet Marko’s F1 career never came to anything? Because a stone flipped up by Emerson Fittipaldi’s Lotus at the 1972 French GP pierced Marko’s visor and hit him in the eye, partially blinding him. That kind of thing tends to hamper a career as a racing driver.

      Just weeks before his accident, Marko set the all time lap record at the Targa Florio and won Le Mans the previous year. He wasn’t bad driver by any measure – 10 GP starts in a third BRM wasn’t exactly a fair crack at the whip.

      1. Now we see that Marko and the Red Bull sponsors are just a one eyed Vettel fans.

        I don’t know what all the fuss is – Webber let Vettel through, and refused to be intimidated by some aggressive driving.

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