Mark Webber, Red Bull, Marina Bay, 2012

Webber demoted to 11th after time penalty

2012 Singapore Grand PrixPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

Mark Webber, Red Bull, Marina Bay, 2012Mark Webber has lost the point he scored in the Singapore Grand Prix after being handed a penalty.

The stewards gave the Red Bull driver a 20-second time penalty after going off the track while overtaking Kamui Kobayashi.

Webber was given a drive-through penalty which, because it is applied after the race, becomes a 20-second penalty.

Webber’s penalty promotes Kobayashi’s team mate Sergio Perez to tenth place and the final championship point.

See the updated 2012 Singapore Grand Prix result.

The stewards’ report said: “Notwithstanding that the distance by which car two left the circuit was minimal, advantage was gained hence a breach did in fact occur.

“Such a breach has consistently attracted a drive-through penalty.”

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Image ?é?® Red Bull/Getty images

59 comments on “Webber demoted to 11th after time penalty”

  1. This is running the risk of drawing a lot of criticism about the stewards again… Too many penalties being given out after the race finishes, and for some pretty silly reasons….

    1. @keeleyobsessed But not this one. If you put all four wheels off the track and overtake someone you’ve gained an unfair advantage and get a penalty. That is indisputable – remember Vettel’s penalty in Germany.

      Still I think Webber was a little unfortunate here. He could have escaped the penalty by giving the place back to Kobayashi. But Kobayashi was very soon afterwards involved in a tangle with Hulkenberg and dropped back with a broken wing. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect a driver to have to hand a place back in those circumstances.

      So on those grounds, perhaps a reprimand would have been fairer. That said, this penalty is entirely consistent with what’s gone before.

      1. @keithcollantine I understand that’s the rule, but to impose it so long after the event seems incredibly harsh.. I’ll probably have to watch the incident again as I didn’t think Webber was completely off the track, but I still feel that the delay is just wrong.. It’s close to Stewards manipulating the race result…

      2. @kethcollantine i think he is talking about how the penalty wasn’t given during the race.

        And i agree, it shouldn’t take long to issue the penalty (even with other things happening) to see: 1. all 4 wheels over line 2. gained an advantage)

      3. @keithcollantine, I know my opinion may be considered Bee…I..AY…S…E…D but remembering that Vettel got a drive through penalty for failing to give Alonso track-room and forcing Alonso off the track when Alonso tried to pass Vettel I would have thought that Kobayashi
        should have been the one getting a penalty, if any penalty were to be given.

          1. Thanks Keith, understood, but with reservations as per my reply to @stefmeister.

    2. Traverse Mark Senior (@)
      23rd September 2012, 19:16

      I agree with Keith, the stewards are just being consistent. If they didn’t penalise Webber they would risk being accused of biased against Vettel. Maybe they initially overlooked it and then belatedly realised their mistake but hey, better late than never.

      @kethcollantine i think he is talking about how the penalty wasn’t given during the race.

      @sato113 I’m pretty sure that @keeleyobsessed is a women…

  2. Viewers need to be more consistent with their demands. They say the FIA are too inconsistent, and when the FIA become more consistent, the viewers say “Too many penalties being given out”.

    1. @infy, but I don’t see the consistency, Webber was alongside Kobayashi before the corner, to be consistent KOB should have been penalised for not giving Webber room, just as Vettel was penalised for not giving Alonso room at Monza.

      1. disregard above, that was a curve but this was a corner, silly me.

  3. The problem here, and on many other occasons, is that the rules on going off-track, overtaking off-track and being pushed off-track aren’t clear enough. The rules on blocking on straights have been clarified and there’s been no problems since.

    If the off-track rules were clear, Webber would’ve been clever enough to either not overtake in such way, or to give the place back. And it wouldn’t have taken the stewards three hours to announce the penalty.

    1. you speak sense Enigma.

  4. I can’t argue with the penalty. It’s not the first time Webber has been in trouble for passing someone off the track at turn 7 and he clearly hadn’t learned from that.

  5. Harsh though it is, I can’t argue with this one. Time and again we have seen drivers punished for gaining an off-track advantage, so it’s good to see the stewards being consistent. If you hit drivers where it hurts you’ll stamp out these moves.

  6. Seemed like the track border discipline was fairly poor all race. I thought massa was being penalised in his fight with senna as he cut a number of corner apexes, including the one that put him alongside on the following straight.

    1. @newdecade Yup, I thought that one was far more obvious than this one Webber has been done for. As @stefmeister below says, Webber was more or less forced off-track by Kobayashi too, whereas Massa had more of a choice.

    2. Michael Brown (@)
      23rd September 2012, 22:10

      The rule is that for the car to be considered on the track any part must be within the white lines. Massa had a small amount of his tire still on the track so it’s legal.

      Did you see the cars cutting turn 12? About half of the right tires were just within the lines.

  7. Not sure I agree with this penalty.

    Yes Mark had all 4 wheels beyond the white line, However he only ended up there because Kobayashi didn’t leave him room to remain within the white line.

    The rules clarification from a few races ago states that when a driver behind gets his car alongside the one infront while atempting a pass he must me left room, Kobayashi failed to leave him room & this forced Mark to put all 4 wheels over the white line.

    1. @stefmeiste
      You are sort of right, because cutting the corner there would not have made Webber go faster. And had there been a wall, gravel, grass whatever there, then Kobayashi would have been hung from underneath the podium for pushing Webber off the circuit.
      I don’t know if its just me, but with the recent rule clarifications on driving and how they enforce it, I really can’t get my head around how on earth the drivers are supposed to race and defend a position.
      But as long as the stewards and drivers know how it works then its fine I suppose.

    2. Kobayashi stuck to the racing line though, which I believe is seen as acceptable.

      1. Not when you’re being overtaken and there is a car next to you. In this instance if you need to stick to the racing line, then you’ve been overtaken. You can’t have the whole road all of the time. If you’re in an overtake, you need to give room to the other car. He did NOT do this. Maybe Webber would have ran wide anyway, maybe? If Kobi was inside the line by a full car and Webber ran wide then it’s a clear penalty. This did NOT happen. Where was Webber supposed to be? If he was inside the line then he is sitting on top of Kobi. Should he really cause an accident to stay inside? As in, have Kobi run in to him because he wants to use all the track when he has a guy along side him. Penalty, if anything should go to Kobi as per the Monza precedent by Alonso and Vettel. FIA have no idea.

    3. If I remember clearly, Hamilton didn’t leave a car’s width for Webber during last year’s German Grand Prix when Webber attempted to overtake him, and Hamilton didn’t receive a penalty. There are a number of cases were the defending driver widens his racing line to defend against an overtake in the middle of a corner.

    4. @stefmeister

      he only ended up there because Kobayashi didn’t leave him room to remain within the white line

      That doesn’t matter because Kobayashi is not required to leave him room to stay within the white line, because they were in a corner.

      1. Wich is why Vettel shouldn’t have had a penalty add Monza then?

    5. kobayashi didn’t need to leave any room because he is on the inside and can take the line he desires. Meanwhile webber must not leave the race track to overtake. Therefore Webber is clearly wrong.
      The rule you refer to is valid in STRAIGHTS and only corners which are considered like straights (like curva grande at monza). This is a corner and kobayashi had right of line.

    6. @stefmeister, I agree with you, Webber was fully, not partially, alongside before the turn and could have stayed on track had he not been pushed off. This interpretation of the rules will encourage drivers to push any passing car off the track and encourage passing cars to push back onto the track which will lead to collisions, the FIA must re-think and clarify this.

      1. @hohum Totally agree. It’s hard to argue that Webber shouldn’t have been given a penalty because technically he’s broken the rules but that doesn’t mean the rules themselves aren’t broken and need to be changed.

        I can’t understand how the rules can allow the driver on an arbitrary racing line to be able to drive other cars off the track or into walls. Had Webber not left the track then Kobayashi would have crashed into him and by the way the rules are written, would be completely entitled to do so.

        I’m worried we’re going to end up in a situation where the defending driver just sticks to the racing line and the following car is too scared to try overtaking, knowing that they’d have to leave the racing line and could potentially be legally driven off the road and into a wall.

        1. @davea86, mulling this over reminded me of the infamous Maldonado/Hamilton incident although in that incident , PM only had his front wing alongside LH.

          The way the rule is being interpreted it seems to me that if 2 cars are side by side going down a straight (or curve) as soon as they enter a corner they both have the right to drive the other off the track, the outside car can cut the apex and the inside car can run wide, essentially a game of chicken !

    7. I agree. Pft white line, apex is apart of the track… Good hard racing.

  8. Surely this is also like the Vettel/Alonso incident in Monza, where Alonso was pushed off the track … and who got the penalty that time?

    1. I think the difference is that incident was on a “straight” (or considered to be one by the stewards), while this one happened at a turn. IIRC the rules are applied differently on a straight vs a corner.

      1. @katederby Kully’s right.

        1. @katederby @keithcollantine
          It makes sense in a way, but then it clearly belongs to the “unwritten rules” Keith was refering to a few months ago, if I remember correctly.

          May I add that even if one can argue about Vettel’s penalty in Monza, Alonso would in no way have deserved a penalty in this case : simply because he then did not gain any advantage.

          1. Lost the beginning of my comment, sorry. It began with “is then considered as a straight line any curve that is taken flat-out?”

          2. @wilhelm It looks like it.

    2. @katederby
      I am as confused as you are.

  9. Regarding the Vettel – Button incident no further action will be taken

    1. What incident? If you are referring to the restart of the race after the safety car, it was Buttons fault, if there is any to blame there.

  10. Talking of going off the track and gaining advantage. Massa was consistently cutting turn 7 with all four wheels, as well as a few other places. I’m surprised he wasn’t warned.

  11. the desicions could be a bit quicker like when the fans are watching the coverage still

  12. I thought Webber would get away with this, because Kobayashi dropped back with damage so soon after the illegal overtake. That said, it was clearly an offence and therefore you can’t argue with the penalty.

  13. How is going wide & thus taking the longer line (meaning you are traveling further then your opponent) “gaining an advantage”?

    You cut off the inside of the turn I can understand that, however in this situation he actually made the pass while at a dis-advantage by having to drive a further distance then the person he was passing.

    [Sorry I forgot Logic doesn’t apply in Motorsports Rules]


    1. You can carry more speed into the corner. Plain and simple. You’re on a longer line, but it’s a quicker line.

      1. That is only true if you go wide from the start of the corner which he was not.

        1. And looking at the pictures posted above again they were actually no longer in the corner when he has over the line with all 4 wheels, they were well onto the straight.

  14. Christian Horner screws Webber over . . . again! Could have put Webber on a two-stop strategy following the safety cars, but decided he did not want to ruin Finger Boy’s race, so he shafted Webber . . . again.
    He shouldn’t have been that far back in the first place, and it was just purely a great overtake. Stewards should stop worrying about whether Grosjean is going to cause a five-car pile-up and just appreciate solid, hard racing.

    1. Yes, Webber lost out on tyre strategy again, but It was not to protect Vettel, just RBRs way of spreading the risk, but going onto the super-soft at only half race distance was bound to fail, and so it proved. When will they learn ?

    2. Webber wasn’t even close to Vettel all race long, so how could it have been to protect Vettel.

      1. Just the frustration coming out of an Australian fan, I guess! Webber should have bitten the bullet and gone to Ferrari, in my opinion. Another great race by our Danny boy, keep up the good work son!

      2. Why would they pit Webber? Would have been a better option to run the risk of him dropping back through the field towards the end of the race on old tires, knowing the race would go to the time limit, and a big chance of more safety cars to follow. Look how many laps Massa did on the super soft tyre! Really dumb move by Red Bull.

        1. The car doesn’t autopilot into the pitlane. If he felt his tyres were in good condition, he had every chance to stay out.

  15. Deserved penalty to be honest. Really not much else to say on it!

    1. Would agree. Even if he was left no space on the track, he should have rejoined behind Koba instead of gaining an advantage going into the next corner. It was a tough call by the stewards but a correct decision

  16. 20s seems ok. Especially when the deltatime for a pitstop was around 29s.

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