Alonso and Hamilton ‘would have done the same as Vettel’ – Horner

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix

Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Sepang, 2013Christian Horner says Sebastian Vettel’s defiance of team orders during the Malaysian Grand Prix showed he has the competitive instincts of the F1 elite.

“He’s a very, very driven individual,” said Horner in an interview with Sky. “You don’t win the amount of events he’s won, the amount of grands prix he’s won, the amount of success he’s had in his career by being a driver that is submissive, that sits back.”

“If Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton had been in that position they’d have done the same, if Mark Webber had been in that position we’ve seen him do the same. So let’s not kid ourselves that this is something unique to Sebastian, this is something that’s in any competitive, driven driver’s DNA.”

Horner admitted there had been previous occasions where he’d attempted to impose team orders on his drivers without success: “I think any race driver, any seriously competitive race driver, teams orders go against what they compete for.”

“We saw it with Mark in 2011 at Silverstone, we saw it on previous occasions with the team, the final in race in Brazil last year, only two races ago.

“It’s a tricky one because obviously the interest of the driver is different from the interests of the team. Team orders are permitted, they exist in Formula One. The constructors’ championship for the team has equal or more importance than the drivers’ championship. The constructors’ championships is where the funds are distributed.

“So of course there are different objectives going on within a Grand Prix: that of the driver and that of the teams.”

Red Bull ‘takes equality seriously’

However Horner added he believes Vettel genuinely regrets his actions: “Sebastian’s a very honest guy. I think he was shocked after the race I think he was surprised and then the feeling came over him, you could see that, that he felt he had done wrong.”

“I believe his apology was sincere and he repeated that apology in private in the briefing that we had later that evening.”

The Red Bull team principal insisted both his drivers will continue to be treated the same: “[Webber] will have equal opportunity to Sebastian as we’ve done our very best to do for both drivers at every Grand Prix that we compete at.”

“Mark knows the equipment that we make and the lengths we go to ensure parity. We even, from weekend to weekend, switch who going to go first in qualifying, who talks first in the debrief, it’s switched from weekend to weekend to ensure there is completely parity in the way we treat our drivers.

“It’s something we take very seriously within the team and I think Mark knows the support that he has.”

“I think we’re going to give up on that code”

Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Sepang, 2013Horner also gave further insight into the events during the final laps of Sunday’s Malaysian Grand Prix, pointing out that Webber had to run his engine on a lower setting because he had used more fuel:

“Mark and Seb were on opposing strategies they were running different tyres at different points in time. After that final stop of course fuel consumption between the two cars had been slightly different, Mark’s had been slightly higher than Sebastian’s so he was in a slightly more fuel saving mode than Sebastian.”

After the race Webber was heard pointing out to Vettel they had been given the instruction “multi 21″ during the race. “Multi 21 means car two ahead of car one,” Horner explained.

“Multi 12 means car one ahead of car two. It’s not complicated. It’s not that difficult to translate but both our drivers in the last three races have failed to understand both of those messages.”

“I think we’re going to give up on that code,” he added. “We need to probably try something else.”

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238 comments on Alonso and Hamilton ‘would have done the same as Vettel’ – Horner

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  1. Strangely no mention of Jenson doing the same thing, even though he has already done so, unlike Lewis and Alonso who have not.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 29th March 2013, 10:06

      @nico21 Out of that group of drivers Button is the only one so far who’s come close to saying he wouldn’t have done the same.

      • Then he should be asked why he did do the same at Turkey 2010. The only one we know for sure who wouldn’t do the same is Nico Rosberg!

        • Lewis also obeyed team orders in Monaco 2007, when he had the opportunity to beat Alonso?

          • @N

            If I remember correctly he was very bitter about being told to hold station…and … I dont think Hamilton dint give it a try… he just was not able to pull it off that day.. afterall we are talking about Monaco and two great drivers in equal cars…

          • Agreed, but he was told to fuel save wasn’t he but thought he would give it a go anyway? Fuel critical ?

          • rambler said on 30th March 2013, 0:43

            Who says anything remotely suggesting Vettel knew Mark was saving fuel? Give me one source. Otherwise, case closed you got no idea what you’re talking about.

            Even so, thinking of the Mercedes case. The race was 56 laps. You used too much fuel so you have to save last laps? Too bad.

        • @nico21: Vettel is really an honest guy. He doesn’t have an attitude problem like so many other drivers. Off track he is rather down to earth. Just like Nico Rosberg. You being a fan of Handsome Nico should know that.

          • @Aish Not sure of the point you’re making? Not a big fan of Nico, though I assume you are going by my user name, did it never occur to you my name is Nico? which it is, short for Nicolette. I am a Lewis fan. I mentioned Nico Rosberg as he obeyed team orders on the same day ,as why we know he wouldn’t do what Vettel did.

          • @nico21: Oh sorry, I like both Lewis and Nico. I guess you may also like Hulkenberg. Lol. Just kidding. Nicolette Nicholson, I get it.

          • JCost (@jcost) said on 29th March 2013, 13:06

            I think he was shocked after the race I think he was surprised and then the feeling came over him, you could see that, that he felt he had done wrong

            Waving his RB9 crossing the line, the finger and his world-size smile didn’t help his cause, did it?

            I can’t say whether Lewis was acting or not but his mood is worth a thousand words. I’d say I believe Hamilton was honest but I just can’t say the same about Seb. My late grand father was used to say: “people are what they do, not what they say”.

          • F1fanNL (@) said on 29th March 2013, 22:56

            @jcost

            I don’t think Vettel knew the team was as upset as they where when he crossed the finish line.

          • @aish People are increasingly feeling like Vettel is all poker face. He always starts with “obviously” and ends with “that’s racing” and a laugh. I just think that he should have won the race from pole, then started a tantrum and just had to win, honestly maybe if Webber had a chance of retrieving all the lost 1st place starts he would have done the same, but actually he hasn’t, at least not successfully.

        • MEmo said on 29th March 2013, 12:18

          … and Felipe Massa!

          • dragoll (@dragoll) said on 30th March 2013, 1:58

            @jcost

            I can’t say whether Lewis was acting or not but his mood is worth a thousand words. I’d say I believe Hamilton was honest but I just can’t say the same about Seb. My late grand father was used to say: “people are what they do, not what they say”.

            I agree with what your grand father says, however, from my point of view, if HAM was truly sorry, his actions speak loudly too. When Nico passed him before the start finish straight, if HAM truly felt awful for holding him up, why did he retake him and perhaps see if he could scamper off down the road to tackle the RBR’s?

  2. Cyclops_PL (@cyclops_pl) said on 29th March 2013, 10:00

    That’s one serious case of schizofrenia here. Dear Christian, you can’t codemn Vettel’s actions and defend them at the same time. You simply can’t.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 29th March 2013, 11:21

      He just showed that he can @cyclops_Pl, but you are completely right, that it makes what he say as irrelevant as his instructions to his own drivers!

    • Asif (@f1asif) said on 29th March 2013, 11:28

      Right on! I agree with Flavio Briatore that Horner’s actions reflect weakness.

      However, they might be walking some of their recent comments so that Seb isn’t completely isolated which might lead to the lad having a meltdown.

    • Traverse (@) said on 29th March 2013, 11:35

      My gut tells me that Horner appreciates what Vettel did, but can’t admit it due to the hysteria kicked up by certain fans. We all know that given half a chance Ham, Alonso and (two-faced) Webber would’ve done the same thing.

      • Traverse (@) said on 29th March 2013, 11:39

        He’s two-faced because he attempted (and failed!) the same manoeuvre at Silverstone 2 years ago.

        • Webber pretended to have a go at him but he couldn’t go agaist team orders or will be shown the door. He only pretended so to please his fans. Webber is a MAN unlike Vettle the snake.

        • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 12:10

          Just like vettel did in turkey 2010

          In case you forgot webber told to turn engine down and vettel told to push

          So people using Britain 2011 as a precedent only need to look at the outcome of turkey 2010

          At least webber was smart enough to not take both of them our whilst still showing he had the pace to pass him in silverstone

          As other users said if he did pass he wouldn’t have been in RBR now

          Imagine Marko’s face

      • Mike (@mike) said on 30th March 2013, 3:26

        I seriously doubt it. He’s made Horner look very silly.

    • M Dickens (@sgt-pepper) said on 29th March 2013, 12:52

      (@cyclops_pl) Not so much condemn and praise – if you notice the PR coming from RB, at first it was ‘Vettel is completely wrong, he disobeyed orders’ to ‘well, if you look at previous experiences at Brazil/Silverstone, who could blame Vettel? It was retaliation against Webber’.

      Realising their golden boy’s stocks were plummeting, and that Mark may potentially retire/move team at the end of the year, the locus of blame is gradually shifting to Webber again. It’s an extremely coy muddying of the PR waters.

    • Michael (@freelittlebirds) said on 29th March 2013, 13:55

      +1 Guess what everyone? Webber was right! Vettel has protection. Now when do you predict the Webber’s KERS will fail again or do you believe it will ever work again? God, they make Vettel’s Red Bull so well but Webber’s car must be made in India by Tata to save costs…

      • M Dickens (@sgt-pepper) said on 31st March 2013, 18:01

        (@freelittlebirds) I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed that Webber’s KERS unit appears to have been installed when the RB crew were drunk or something considering the mysterious amount of failures he suffers.

        (@hellotraverse)(@vettel1)
        Have you honestly not noticed the shift from portioning blame on Vettel in the immediate aftermath, to shifting it back to Webber’s fault somehow? I also can’t help but feel Hamilton and Alonso would also follow team orders if instructed.

        And I think people perhaps defend Webber’s actions in Silverstone due to the fact he’s already in a team that treats him appallingly – maybe the viewing public are beginning to tire of the PR stance that Webber is treated equally, when all evidence points on the contrary.

        • @sgt-pepper

          Have you honestly not noticed the shift from portioning blame on Vettel in the immediate aftermath, to shifting it back to Webber’s fault somehow?

          Where exactly has he put any blame on Webber here?

          • M Dickens (@sgt-pepper) said on 31st March 2013, 23:09

            (@vettel1)

            Horner admitted there had been previous occasions where he’d attempted to impose team orders on his drivers without success: “I think any race driver, any seriously competitive race driver, teams orders go against what they compete for.”

            “We saw it with Mark in 2011 at Silverstone, we saw it on previous occasions with the team, the final in race in Brazil last year, only two races ago.

    • TimmyA (@timmya) said on 29th March 2013, 13:56

      +1 Mr. Horner you are a hypocrite

    • If Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton had been in that position they’d have done the same, if Mark Webber had been in that position we’ve seen him do the same. So let’s not kid ourselves that this is something unique to Sebastian, this is something that’s in any competitive, driven driver’s DNA.”

      I wouldn’t call that defending, I would call that silencing critics who are using this incident to claim moral superiority for Webber. He made it very clear he wasn’t happy with Vettel’s actions as a team boss and has mentioned in this article the apologies Vettel made, so really I think it’s just an “all is well, the issue has been resolved” statement.

    • kovi said on 29th March 2013, 18:20

      Don’t miss the point. The comment is just horner telling webber who is red bull’s number one driver.

  3. Funkyf1 (@funkyf1) said on 29th March 2013, 10:04

    There you go, multi 21 explained, Mark’s situation explained, Vettel driving explained. So can we give it a rest now?

    • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 29th March 2013, 10:06

      hear hear, It’s about time to stop this nonsense. There were other things that featured during the race. Time to discuss those.

    • bosyber (@bosyber) said on 29th March 2013, 10:31

      Not really much explanation really though @funkyf1, apart from possibly why Mark didn’t fight until flag but hung back after overtake. But doesn’t realistically seem that much to add, as we won’t be privy to their private thoughts and conversations, I agree.

      It does illustrate that Webber was at least right Vettel would be ‘protected’, and Horner not quite truthful abt. Not getting that remark. So nothing new really. Vettel is their main driver, and has accolades to show why.

    • “So can we give it a rest now?”

      With 2 weeks still to the next race, you’re joking arn’t you? ;]

      • Funkyf1 (@funkyf1) said on 29th March 2013, 11:40

        Wishful thinking is my guess N. @bosyber I’m just over it. With this whole situation there isn’t a wrong or a right. Mark thinks he was wrong done by and so do the Webber supporters, as this was and maybe will be the only time Horner backed Webber. Seb said he didn’t mean it and as a person he probably didn’t, didn’t want to do that to Mark, but as a racer, he will risk everything he can for the win. Horner, well he is just in a world of hurt. What he stated/wanted/commanded was disregarded so what’s the point of him being there. In the end, it would be crazy to punish a driver in the team you run, it only affects your own performance, so it’s not gonna happen, either driver could run over Horners cat or smash his car and they’d still be driving next round….

        So after blabbing on about it again (sucked in) there will be no change, because nothing can be changed, multi or no multi

    • antifia (@antifia) said on 29th March 2013, 12:29

      So that’s what that code means? I figured Webber was refering to how many times Vettel had kicked his derrier in a row…. next race he would be mumbling Multi-22….. huahuahuahua

  4. mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 29th March 2013, 10:21

    I think Jackie Stewart’s comment was more interesting: “Webber could move to Ferrari, but he would have the same problems with Alonso as he has with Vettel”.

    • Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 29th March 2013, 10:50

      It might even be worse at Ferrari.

      Fernando might be good friends with Mark, but Fernando hates a ‘punchy’ teammate, preferring a submissive dog instead.

      • Nomore (@nomore) said on 29th March 2013, 10:58

        …and why do you think that Webber will be more competitive than Massa in Ferrari ??

        • Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 29th March 2013, 11:09

          Please, point out where I stated that Webber would be more competitive.

          Webber is certainly more outspoken and less accepting of team orders than Massa, but I never said he’d be more competitive.

        • Nomore (@nomore) said on 29th March 2013, 13:55

          but Fernando hates a ‘punchy’ teammate, preferring a submissive dog instead.

          What makes you think that Webber is a ‘punchy’ teammate for Alonso??

          He may be a submissive dog for Alonso just like Massa…

          • javlinsharp (@javlinsharp) said on 29th March 2013, 18:27

            @nomore
            If you compare MW’s speech on the poduim of Malyasian GP “…Seb will be have protection like he always does” vs Massa’s quite acceptance in the interviews after Germany 2010, you will see an example of how Mark Webber will speak his mind and be “punchy” will Massa will keep quiet.

            Im not condoning or condemning any actions of either driver, simply providing an example of the events that have contributed to the reputation that each drivers has to the public.

          • Sankalp Sharma (@sankalp88) said on 29th March 2013, 18:37

            @nomore

            Alonso’s and WEbber’s friendship will be over if Webber decides to drive for Ferrari. And no sir Webber won’t be a submissive dog whatsoever. He has been a front runner for far too long now. Alonso of course would still be the faster guy and on the days when Webber is faster, Alonso would still be there or thereabouts. Which could lead to team orders and Webber of course not obeying.

  5. Jason (@jason12) said on 29th March 2013, 10:22

    Wow Horner?….
    This seems like a statement advised to you by some PR Consultant.
    Attack the two best drivers on the grid…. and this will shift the negative attention from Seb.

    • David not Coulthard (@) said on 29th March 2013, 10:41

      EThis seems like a statement advised to you by some PR Consultant.

      Either that or Keith simply opted for that title.

    • Shena (@shena) said on 29th March 2013, 12:20

      Yep, you should read/watch the whole interview before judging his intention. He said Webber would have done the same too. The quote in the title was never the point of the interview.

    • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 11:48

      Well said!

      Actually I think this is a PR dream for red bull

      Pretend like you actually backed webber for a change but happy that vettel actually took maximum points and then the fans who don’t like team orders and are hailing vettel like senna or Schumacher who would have done the same thing

  6. rad_g said on 29th March 2013, 10:29

    It’s obvious now – Red Bull is Vettel’s team.

  7. Giggsy11 (@giggsy11) said on 29th March 2013, 10:29

    I do Respect Christian Horner as a Team Principle but he is wrapped up in so much hypocrisy I struggle to like him as a person. He speaks words in the same vain as Flavio Briatore and that can never be a good sign.

  8. Mads (@mads) said on 29th March 2013, 10:32

    So he accepts the fact that any competetive driver would have done exactly the same things as Vettel in that situation, but he still uses the team order? Why is that?
    The only result of applying a team order then, is to either make the drivers upset, look like a fool, or like what happened here BOTH. Its a loose, loose. So why not just stop it all ready and accept that racing drivers are racing drivers?
    They have had that problem before so they ḱnow how their drivers behave in those situations. They should either accept that or fire both and replace them with Rosberg and Massa.

    • I’ve been asking that same questions myself.
      Horner must’ve seen this thing coming and yet he still did it anyway. He’s pretty much lost any credibility he has as a team principal because of this.
      I get that he doesn’t want Turkey 2010 to happen all over again but there’s got to be a better way of telling your drivers to be careful with each other.

  9. Lucas Wilson (@full-throttle-f1) said on 29th March 2013, 10:41

    We all know Vettel own’s the team and that they would.nt be where they are without mr Newey.

    So, they should (as someone has already suggested) change their name to Vettel – Newey Racing.

  10. Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 29th March 2013, 10:42

    And so begins the smoothing over.

    Turns out Vettel really can get away with defying the team.

    • Cristian (@cristian) said on 29th March 2013, 10:50

      Just as Webber can. More than once.

      • Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 29th March 2013, 11:18

        Never said he couldn’t.

        While I’m on the subject though, people keep using Silverstone 2011 as an example when Webber defied team orders, and yes he did defy them to an extent, but he never overtook Vettel.
        The difference here being that Vettel did overtake Webber.

        I can imagine the uproar from a certain Austrian if Webber had infact passed Vettel. But he didn’t, so all was well.

        • Vone (@vone) said on 29th March 2013, 11:40

          Silverstone 2011 is a very good example. That’s why people use it.

          The reason Webber never overtook Vettel then was because he couldn’t. He admitted to that himself. Vettel was however able to get past Webber in Malaysia.

          They both broke team orders. The only difference was that one was able to pass while the other wasn’t.

        • Traverse (@) said on 29th March 2013, 11:42

          So what your saying is Vettel is worse because he actually succeeded where Webber failed?

          • Chris (@tophercheese21) said on 29th March 2013, 12:06

            No, I’m just saying that comparing 2011 Silverstone to 2013 Sepang is not quite right, because Webber didn’t pass Vettel.

            Yes team orders were played out on the television coverage, which made it a talking point, but nothing happened in reality. The positions didn’t change.

            Where as in Sepang, the engineers and Horner were quite clearly telling Vettel not to overtake, and he still did it anyway.

          • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 12:22

            So vettel succeeded passing webber in turkey 2010 then

          • David-A (@david-a) said on 31st March 2013, 16:39

            @Drezone – It’s no surprise that you’ve come up with an irrelevant example.

        • Mark tried to overtake by Ignoring the orders and failed how does that means he was Obeying the Orders.
          This is what Two-Faced Personality as some one said.

          • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 12:20

            Let me get this right

            Webber is two faced and vettel is an angel

            I’m sure most of the media that speak to both drivers and fellow drivers would disagree

  11. SubSailorFl said on 29th March 2013, 10:46

    They need to stop and let it go. Whether they would or wouldn’t it sound childish.

  12. Eggry (@eggry) said on 29th March 2013, 10:46

    Well, may be Horner.

  13. If that’s the case why do they ever bother with team instructions, if it had of been race on, Webber would not have tuned down his engine and could have continued on to win. Don’t expect him to do it again cos it really is game on now. Team Webber vs everyone else

  14. Eggry (@eggry) said on 29th March 2013, 10:56

    Well, I have to disagree with you, Horner.

    If Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton had been in that position

    I think that’s only in case they are in RBR, not Ferrari, Mclaren, Mercedes. Red Bull is the only team does nothing to control them when both drivers bite each other. I might say Vettel is something unique in terms of team order however. that’s not Vettel himself being but because his situation and growing background, what he experienced from team management etc…

    You only can blame yourself Horner. You should have blamed Vettel when he crashed into Webber. You should have say strong words when Webber disobeyed. May be it’s too late now perhaps.

  15. Bleeps_and_Tweaks (@bleeps_and_tweaks) said on 29th March 2013, 11:13

    I’m not surprised this has caused so much of a fuss, but I am disappointed it has.

    What would Ayrton Senna have done in Vettel’s position? If he had the chance to win a race, my personal opinion is that he would have gone out and won it. If anything I’ve got more respect for Vettel after Malaysia, not less.

    The team put the drivers in the position to win races by working incredibly hard to deliver the hardware needed to do that. They then give all of that responsibility to a group of people in their 20′s-30′s that have spent years honing their skills to try and get into the position of winning races in the highest echelon of motorsport. Then you expect someone to hold position, just because they were behind at the last pit stop? That’s not what I watch F1 for. I’m not naive enough to think that this hasn’t happened for years, obviously it has, but for me last weekend was a positive for honest, hard racing. I sincerely hope that Hamilton and Alonso would have done the same.

    • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 29th March 2013, 11:35

      +1 well put

    • Traverse (@) said on 29th March 2013, 12:17

      Hopefully this is a watershed moment that results in every driver on the grid disobeying team orders. Maybe then we’ll see some REAL RACING.

      • John H (@john-h) said on 29th March 2013, 13:56

        My comment has gone. Oh well.

        I’d just like to point out that this was not real racing, because one driver assumed there would be no overtaking after the final pitstop. This is what the multi-21 code was.

        You could say that Webber was naive to think that Vettel would stand by what he agreed before the race – but he won’t make the same mistake again.

        I presume in a driver’s briefing before the race, this situation was discussed and this is why Vettel now feels the need to apologise because he has basically gone back on an agreement made pre-race with his team-mate.

        This is a question of respect and honouring an agreement. I gather from the recent comments that winning is everything. I beg to differ.

        • this was not real racing

          I wish there was some way to determine what proportion of readers actually watch the races. Perhaps a post race quiz. Because that was the only real racing of the entire GP. The pair of them almost collided as Mark exited the pit stop and then it was two laps of wheel-to-wheel white-knuckle racing. Ever after Seb passed him Mark did not give up. Not that I think he should have, but his actions were wildly at odds with the picture some people have in their minds of what happened.

          • Traverse (@) said on 29th March 2013, 15:05

            +1

          • John H (@john-h) said on 29th March 2013, 16:53

            I don’t mean that bit. Jeez. I mean leading up to it. I’ve finished with this debate. Meh.

          • F1_Americana (@f1americana) said on 29th March 2013, 20:28

            Webber had his engine turned down. Vettel did not. *NOT* real racing. Simple.

            The question is, and I don’t know if anyone knows the answer but RBR, but did Webber turn his engine back up to fight off Vettel at any point?

          • uan (@uan) said on 30th March 2013, 18:01

            @f1americana

            Horner explains the engines turned down thing – Webber needed to conserve fuel as he had used more earlier in the race (which is why he was able to stay ahead of Vettel). This is also the same situation Hamilton found himself in at the end of the race – he had used to much fuel.

            In a sense Webber and Hamilton were the ones not really racing at that point. They couldn’t. Nico and Seb could actually still race and if it wasn’t their teammates in front of them, would have been able to attack.

            Hamilton’s podium is empty of being earned. It was given. Webber’s victory was to be given and not earned as well. If it was Nico behind Webber, Nico would have passed Webber and no one would be saying “well it wasn’t a real pass because Webber had to conserve fuel.”

        • F1_Americana (@f1americana) said on 29th March 2013, 20:30

          100% agree with what your saying. No matter how exciting it may have been for fans, if it was not a fair fight (only one driver *knows* he’s racing, and is the only driver who has his engine at race mapping), then it wasn’t “real racing”. Exciting to watch? Sure. Real racing? No way.

    • Palle (@palle) said on 29th March 2013, 13:25

      @bleebs_and_tweaks So well put. I think Horner is maybe coming around to accept that when his drivers are on the track he can’t control them – only give them advice. If he has a problems with nervousness, when they race each other, then he should consult a professional to help him with that, while the rest of us watches some good and fair racing.

    • Cranberry said on 29th March 2013, 15:19

      I have always been a Webber supporter and still think he is the better of the two drivers, all those KERS issues happening only in his car make me a suspicious little fanboy, so naturally I was holding my breath for him to win and was absolutely heartbroken when I realized I would once more have to see that ghastly fingerpointing in post-race pictures.

      But after letting it set in for a week and seeing Vettel have to apologize for being the fastest man of the race and having the audacity to overtake a slower car and take the lead with 10+ laps to go. I have to ask myself and my fellow fanatics:

      What have we been smoking!?
      Please do yourself a favor and re-live the “glorious” moments of the Austria 2002 GP?
      Team orders were momentarily banned thanks to that historical event. Anyone here who thinks Red Bull were correct to issue a team order in just the second race of the season is probably a Webber fan first and racing fan second.

      Team orders have their time and place, unfortunately, but I sure don’t want to see the drivers being pounded into submission, and by the fans no-less, to the benefit of corporate interest! These guys do indeed train for their entire lives to be the best. They grow up with the dream of an F1 seat and a “eat or be eaten”-attitude. To think that those instincts could be overcome by something agreed on in a pre-race meeting is appalling to me.

      I don’t want that to happen, not while the drivers have a shot at the title.

      Vettel did us all a favor. Thanks to him and his disgusting overtake(he did push Webber waaaayy too hard) the podium was not decided by The Council of Team Principals.

      • celeste (@celeste) said on 29th March 2013, 16:46

        Thats a super comment…

      • “Vettel did us all a favor. Thanks to him and his disgusting overtake(he did push Webber waaaayy too hard) the podium was not decided by The Council of Team Principals.”

        The reason theres been such uproar is because the public became aware of the situation that both Vettel and Webber agreed on something, only for Vettel to stab him in the back. This is not a case of neither driver being aware of such a rule and then the team getting on the radio mid-late race and telling Vettel that he couldnt race to the finish, then him getting emotional and taking it into his own hands. (Which would have been atleast understandable, as it would have been if Rosberg took Hamilton)

        What Vettel did was calculated and cold, he dishonored his agreement, and people didnt like seeing that. Is anyone of the opinion that Vettel would have got the win had this agreement not been in place? Pretty sure most people think Webber had that win the bag on pace, and thats why theres a problem.

        I dont think this situation is anything like Austria 2002 in principle.

        • Is anyone of the opinion that Vettel would have got the win had this agreement not been in place? Pretty sure most people think Webber had that win the bag on pace, and thats why theres a problem.

          Neither driver gave any signs of thinking about that “agreement” during the race. People have an impressive capacity for self-deception, so I can’t rule out the possibility that some people really DO think that Webber “had the race n the bag” but for Vettels “stab in the back”.

          But such a belief is not supported by any facts. Vettels fastest lap time of the race coincided with Mark Webbers fastest lap time of the race – lap 45, when both drivers were racing each other for the lead. If Webber has actually been taken unaware by a “stab in the back”, he’d have been sitting in his car, eyes wide with astonishment and shock, as Vettel sailed past him. He was under no illusions that the race was over.

          You can see the lap time data here for the two drivers – deselect everyone else – and it refutes the notion that Webber had the race n the bag. It also refutes the notion that Webber “had his engine in fuel saving mode”.

          http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/03/24/2013-malaysian-grand-prix-lap-times-fastest-laps/

          • You and your fancy “numbers” and “facts.”

          • “Neither driver gave any signs of thinking about that “agreement” during the race.”

            Why would they? The ‘agreement’ was that they would be free to race up until the last round of stops, then whatever position they are in, they would remain in. Webber had Vettel beat upto that point.

            And the problem with only looking at laptimes on a sheet is that it dosnt take into account track position. Webber had a good gap to Vettel leading into the last stint, a gap that he was managing throughout all the race.

            Even if its the case that Vettel closed that gap up _before_ Webbers last stop (knowing the ‘race’ would be called off once Webbers last stop was made) Webber _still maintained_ his lead position throughout his out-lap, it was only until the following lap that Vettel actually managed to gain the position. (hence the ‘this is getting silly seb comment)

          • F1fanNL (@) said on 29th March 2013, 23:01

            Why would they? The ‘agreement’ was that they would be free to race up until the last round of stops

            When Webber left the pits for the last time they were neck and neck. So, who had who beat?

          • “When Webber left the pits for the last time they were neck and neck. So, who had who beat?”

            Webber had the lead going into the last stops, Webber held the lead after his outlap. Is that not obvious enough for you who had who beat in terms of their ‘agreement’ ?

          • Kazihno (@kazinho) said on 30th March 2013, 3:34

            “Vettel’s fastest lap time of the race coincided with Mark Webber’s fastest lap time of the race – lap 45, when both drivers were racing each other for the lead.”

            Of course they set their best times. They had both just pitted for fresh tyres and and were lighter on fuel than they had been for the entire race. What a daft statement.

            The reason why people say “Webber had the race in the bag” is because Vettel was unable to pass Webber at any stage prior to engine mode change.

            That is why Vettel was on the radio to the not even 1/3 of the way into the race demanding Webber be moved over for his benefit. Simple enough explanation?

        • Cranberry said on 30th March 2013, 0:50

          In Austria the faster driver was denied the win to benefit the slower driver.
          In Shanghai they wanted to hold back the faster driver to benefit the slower one.
          The similarity lies in the fact that there is no need for team orders whatsoever. Both drivers are in contention for the title and they should race accordingly.
          When one team gets a dominant position, all we viewers have is the potential for the teammates to fight for the title. Do we really want it to be decided in a meeting 30min before the race?

          F1 is special. Name another sport where fixing the result is acceptable. That is why it should only be done in very specific circumstances. F1 needs to be very careful how it handles these events and making a race winner apologize for winning is a guaranteed way to become the WWF on the motorsport world by 2020….

          The race was on for both of these guys and they both should have known it, this is where RedBull failed, they confused Webber and made him think he could coast to the finish line.

          • “F1 is special. Name another sport where fixing the result is acceptable.”

            It’s not special at all, this is the problem with F1, its the perception. People seems to be under the impression that its a single person sport because theres 1 guy in the car, and thats all they see, they dont think about the hundreds n hundreds of people it takes to design/build and run them.

            When a football team has an advantage over another team with 10 minutes to go in the match, what do they do? They start kicking it about to conserve their lead and their energy, the managers/coach will oftern bring certin players off, tactically, so they have them fit for another match. And what happens if you have bet on a particular player scoring a goal, only for him to be brought off the pitch? What happens when theres a pen and the manager/coach decides a certin player, that you didnt bet on, is going to take it? Is that fixing a result?

            When you bet on something, its upto you learn and understand what it is your betting on. In F1 team orders are legal, so its therefore upto you to understand that thats a possibility when taking your bet into consideration.

            “The race was on for both of these guys and they both should have known it, this is where RedBull failed, they confused Webber and made him think he could coast to the finish line.”

            Webber and Vettel both knew they were able to race upto until the last round of stops, this was a pre-arranged understanding, there was no cofusion at all.

      • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 11:57

        As opposed to the 20 times webber did obey

        My favourite is the radio message to webber to maintain the gap to alonso (whilst vettel was between them)

      • Drezone said on 31st March 2013, 12:02

        I think it’s safe to say most people don’t like team orders and want to see racing no matter what your bias……

        However I think the big question was if both drivers were actually aware they were racing each other which wasn’t the case

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