Red Bull gives up on team orders as Vettel admits he would defy them again

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix

Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Shanghai, 2013Christian Horner has confirmed Red Bull will stop using team orders at the end of the race following the row which broke out at the end of the Malaysian Grand Prix.

It came as Sebastian Vettel told reporters he would defy similar instructions again and felt his team mate did not deserve to win the race.

Horner told the BBC the decision was taken by Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz: “I had discussions with Dietrich and we agreed that Red Bull is not a fan of team orders.”

“Therefore we will not impose team orders at the end of a race. However, we expect the drivers to act on the information they have from the team.”

Vettel told reporters he did not immediately understand the order he was given during the race: “Had I understood the message and had I thought about it, reflected on it, thought what the team wanted to do, to leave Mark in first place and me finishing second… I think I would have thought about it and I would probably have done the same thing.”

“He didn’t deserve it,” Vettel continued. “There is quite a conflict, because on the one hand I am the kind of guy who respects team decisions and the other hand, probably Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time.”

“I don’t like to talk ill of other people. It’s not my style. I think I said enough. The bottom line is that I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I won,” he added.

Vettel said he did not expect it would change how far his team mate went in supporting him because “I never had support from his side.”

“In terms of my relationship with Mark, I respect him a lot as a racing driver but I think there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team but didn’t.”

Both Red Bull drivers have openly disobeyed team orders in the past: Webber did so at Silverstone in 2011 and there was further friction in Brazil last year when Vettel was campaigning to win the championship title.

Webber said Red Bull choosing not to use team orders would make things “probably easier” in the future.

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282 comments on Red Bull gives up on team orders as Vettel admits he would defy them again

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  1. MaroonJack (@maroonjack) said on 11th April 2013, 13:46

    “However, we expect the drivers to act on the information they have from the team”… Which means we will have team orders disguised as “save your tyres”, “save your fuel” or “save your engine” kind of messages. Same old, same old.

    • BasCB (@bascb) said on 11th April 2013, 14:13

      more or less that, yes.

    • Nothing related to your reply but, What would happen (at Milton Keynes) if Mark Webber wins the championship?

    • Rob Wilson (@rob-wilson) said on 11th April 2013, 16:20

      @coefficient I hope Mark reads that comment and uses it as motivation to prove you and many other people wrong. I’m no massive Mark Webber fan, I like him as much as the next guy but this just seemed a tad harsh, I hope you end up with egg on your face with this one and Mark has a brilliant season.

      • oli campbell said on 11th April 2013, 16:33

        +1

      • DaveD (@daved) said on 11th April 2013, 18:24

        The one problem with that is that Webber is always going to have problems until he learns to use first gear!!! I don’t know why he bothers to qualify. hell, even if starts on poll, by the first corner, he’s in 8th or 9th place. Then he spends the first third of the race destroying his tires and burning extra fuel fighting the pack to get back on the podium.
        All that fighting and passing while Seb is up front cruising free of everyone is just killing him. Seriously, if Webber knew how to start and could stay up front…what would the total WDC points look like? He’s got a great car, just like Seb. He’s not quite as quick on qualifying…but he’s good at managing the race once he’s up there. What would the points difference between them be if they could just teach him how to START???

        • OEL F1 (@oel-f1) said on 11th April 2013, 19:00

          The one bad start he’s had for quite a long time was due to a KERS failure. I believe he fixed his start problems last year.

          • DaveD (@daved) said on 11th April 2013, 19:57

            I hope you’re right. Because his starts not only affect him, but everyone who is swerving around to avoid him.

          • DVC (@dvc) said on 12th April 2013, 0:26

            Supposedly Webber’s KERS design is compromised by his height, and this regularly contributes to the poor starts. Webber has never been a good starter though – think of his time at Jaguar. And I would have thought Red Bull would have found a fix by now.

      • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 0:43

        If losing a World Title to your team mate three times in a row is not enough motivation then I highly doubt this will add much more to it..

      • coefficient (@coefficient) said on 12th April 2013, 10:35

        @Rob Wilson
        Just being realistic. Webber is not in the same league as Vettel, no.2 status in that team is inevitable for him as long as he has a team mate of Vettel’s calibre. The same would probably be true if he partnered Alonso or Hamilton. It’s just a fact, you can’t deny the numbers. Vettel has thrashed Webber in their time together, conclusively! Like it or not the team favour Vettel because they know he will get the job done.

        I’ll be the first to eat my hat if Mark proves me wrong but I very much doubt he will as that would require 4 titles on the trot with Seb as his team mate. Not likely hey?

    • Is this the end of RedBull Racing??

    • So right, at least those less descriptive calls are probably going to be better understood.

  2. Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 13:48

    Sorry but the arrogance is just to much “He didn’t deserve it,” I didn’t know he had the right to decide that. And Webber did not disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011, he stayed behind him for two laps, showed his nose and then complied with the team order. Vettel did not in Malaysia, he actually passed Mark, huge difference I would think.

    • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 13:51

      @keithcollantine I’m disapointed you didn’t note that in the article keith, for the rest you’ve been an uploading machine today!

    • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 14:00

      @force-maikel How is this arrogance, its fact, Seb had better tyres, better fuel and better race all around, there was no reason for the team to stop him.
      After Silverstone Mark wrote on his column for BBC that he tried and FAILED to pass Seb, he wasn’t just trying to make a point that he’s faster.

      • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 14:06

        1. “He didn’t deserve it,”
        2. “There is quite a conflict, because on the one hand I am the kind of guy who respects team decisions and the other hand, probably Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time.”
        3. “I don’t like to talk ill of other people. It’s not my style. I think I said enough. The bottom line is that I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I won,”

        How arrogant can he be? He didn’t have much credit left with me but that has just been vaporized into thin air. He is a great driver, but not a great champion. Talk like this is unworthy of a TRIPLE formula one world champion!

        • artificial racer said on 11th April 2013, 18:14

          What are you on about? He WAS faster at the end of the race. His car had more life left. Mark could not have held him back.

      • David BR2 said on 11th April 2013, 16:36

        Well Vettel can be right about being faster and arrogant.

        Although I think Vettel was very sneaky in taking the win in the last race, ignoring the team instructions to reduce engine power to get close enough to Webber to pass him, Webber really was a bit on thin ice to challenge Vettel about team orders when he has gone against them in the past. I have to admit I’ve changed my mind on this. If you compare how Massa boxed in Hamilton at São Paulo 2007 to let Raikonnen through at the start with Webber blocking Vettel last year, there is no team spirit between the Red Bull drivers, at all. So what did Webber expect, truthfully? His actions suggest the frustration of someone who decided to stay in a team that placed him firmly in number two spot after their tussles in 2010. Basically Vettel has turned the situation around sharply in his favour, telling Webber that he, Vettel, is faster, the team backs him and he’ll do whatever he wants to win with their full backing. So Webber can only answer him on the track. Which unfortunately he has shown himself incapable of doing the last two years.

      • Juan (@gumbercules) said on 11th April 2013, 17:21

        Mark was 4 seconds ahead of vettel before he was told to slow down after his last pit stop, and was told by the team that Vettel would slow down too. Had Mark not slowed down, Vettel would have had a harder time passing, not that he couldn’nt but it would have been more difficult.

        In Siverstone 2011, was Vettel told to slow down and reasured that Mark would too? IIRC, Mark was catching Vettel on pure pace but the team asked him not to pass, which is different than how Vettel took advantage of Mark’s actions once he had slowed down per team order.

        To me, it’s not the same situation, Mark caught Vettel on Merit and disobeyed an order to stay put, but Vettel caught Mark because Vettel was supposed to slow down too (as he agreed to) but didnt. Mark was selfish, but Vettel downright cheated.

        Feel free to correct my memories of Silverstone or answer my questions if I got anything wrong, I’m open to all perspectives.

    • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 11th April 2013, 14:31

      @force-maikel

      Webber did not disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011

      The man himself says otherwise.

      • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 14:42

        @keithcollantine Well he the man may have said that but he was clearly faster, just showed his nose and then complied with the team order. In the end it was his own decision to not stick with the passing maneuver. It still gives Vettel no excuse to back stab his teammate like that. Red Bull has made it clear that no team orders will be issued form now on and that’s they way it should be.

        • Veteran said on 11th April 2013, 14:59

          Almost forgot how Webber raced in Brazil 2012? It is only just that Vettel passed Webber. Webber is all fun on the outside and the heart on his sleeve style, but as a teammate he is utterly terrible. He even cannot support a teammate on the final race which will decide a championship. If you cannot do that, how do you expect your teammate will support you?

          • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 15:03

            Yeah, On the first lap he could have been more helpful but He let him by in the middle of the race so I don’t see the problem.

          • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 11th April 2013, 15:18

            If he’s a terrible team mate, then why did he beat Alonso to the flag at Silverstone, for instance? those 7 points he took of Alonso also helped Vettel, you know…

          • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 16:32

            Yeah, On the first lap he could have been more helpful but He let him by in the middle of the race so I don’t see the problem.

            There would not have been a need to let him through in the first place had Webber not squeezed Vettel in the first corner, where they were already side by side thanks to one of Mark’s legendary starts. And in that case, Vettel wouldn’t have been exposed to Senna’s kamikaze “I’ll jump out of nowhere and break out 3 cars before this corner” attack…

          • Guilherme (@guilherme) said on 11th April 2013, 17:05

            @fer-no65 He didn’t do it for Vettel though…

          • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 11th April 2013, 19:52

            @guilherme ultimately, he did… that’s racing. What else should he do? leave the door open everytime he’s behind? no, he should be racing and scoring 1-2′s with Vettel.

        • So your response is basically “Webber was lying through his teeth then, and on the many other occasions when he has vehemently insisted that he would not obey team orders and not assist his teammate”?

        • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 11th April 2013, 16:53

          @force-maikel

          just showed his nose and then complied with the team order.

          He did not ‘comply with the order’ in any sense. As he admitted that it’s futile to pretend otherwise in a transparent attempt to find a stick to beat Vettel with.

          Red Bull has made it clear that no team orders will be issued form now on and that’s they way it should be.

          Agreed.

          • Mike (@mike) said on 11th April 2013, 17:32

            @keithcollantine

            The only reason we ever get get orders is when the boffins on the bench decide to issue them, unless they are banned from doing so, how can we complain that they do it?

            It’s the same as red bull’s flexi-wing, it was ok when it was legal.

            Although make no mistake, I absolutely detest team orders, how can we criticize them without acknowledging that a team has the right to use them, and as such, will, when it’s in their interests.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 11th April 2013, 17:47

            @mike Two answers come to mind immediately:

            1. Those on the pit wall aren’t infallible. Vettel’s assessment of how much punishment his car could take proved to be correct, just as it did in Korea last year when they were also begging him to back off.

            2. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is always right.

          • Mike (@mike) said on 11th April 2013, 18:32

            @keithcollantine

            On 2, although I agree with you, do you think, other than re-banning team orders, there is any other way to avoid them? And that’s assuming banning them would stop them, which it didn’t before.

            I think that the is too much motivation for said bench boffins to want to use them to really stop it.

            Which, is really sad.

  3. Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 13:54

    “Had I understood the message and had I thought about it, reflected on it, thought what the team wanted to do, to leave Mark in first place and me finishing second… I think I would have thought about it and I would probably have done the same thing.”

    http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1785745.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/multi21-1785745.jpg

    Really Sebastian? How low have you fallen

    • mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 11th April 2013, 14:05

      “It was obviously a difficult situation, but I still feel comfortable about what I did.”
      Guess who said that?

    • JCost (@jcost) said on 11th April 2013, 16:54

      Actually he said sorry 15 days ago and now he says all that?

      Sorry Seb, I’m officially backing Webber to beat you, it’s a long shot but…

      • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 1:05

        If you’re using this as an excuse to not support him then you never were a fan to begin with (or were always against him). Just because he was full of emotion/confusion 15 minutes after driving a grand prix (and tried to explain them) and now had 2 weeks time to reflect about his decisions doesn’t make him any less of a great driver..

        • Sergio Perez (@sergio-perez) said on 12th April 2013, 4:13

          Agreed. Vettel wants to race. So let them race. No more whining from Webber. Prove it on the race track. That’s the F1 I like, not this team order stuff. If they stay true to their words, Red Bull has gained a fan.

  4. gatekiller (@gatekiller) said on 11th April 2013, 13:54

    Who better the police team order than the drivers themselves…

  5. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@) said on 11th April 2013, 13:56

    From now seems to be a fair battle at Red Bull, but let’s see what will happen with Webber’s kers…

  6. DC (@dujedcv) said on 11th April 2013, 14:02

    Vettel needs to get a slap in the face and foot in the a**. How can he, during the race, see and decide whether his team mate deserves to win or not? He has a team that is revolving around him and he still wants more, like a spoiled little kid that he is.

    • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 14:32

      @gatekiller please read what’s written, he said “Mark didn’t deserve it at the time”, he isn’t saying Mark isn’t a driver worthy of a win, he IS saying that in his mind he did better job overall in the race, which is abundantly clear by him having better tyres and better fuel after the last stop, and the team shouldn’t have tried to stop him.

      • celeste (@celeste) said on 11th April 2013, 15:28

        @mnm101 @dujedcv actually I´m reading this one as “Why would Mark win by team orders of he doesn´t follow them?”. In other words, if Marke Webber had helped Vettel or listening to the team orders where they were apply to him Vettel would have respected the team orders.

        By example Vettel would have follow team orders for Massa.

      • Juan (@gumbercules) said on 11th April 2013, 17:40

        This would be true if mark had not slowed down after told by the team to slow dow, thus reducing his 4 second advantage on Vettel.

        I think Vettel may have passed Mark anyways as he had a better last stint, but it would not have been as easy had Mark not slowed down.

        • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 18:17

          Mark did NOT slow down. He himself said today that his tyres were over by the last pit stop and Vettel caught him on the fresh soft ones. He wanted to pit one lap earlier (e. g. when Vettel pitted), but the team gave Vettel priority so that they could cover Hamilton who pitted one more lap earlier. Mark admitted that Vettel was given priority to cover Hamilton, not because the team wanted to favour him against Webber.
          He might have slowed down AFTER the last pit stop (with Vettel in his back all the way), but that was due to having less fuel than Vettel, read up on it on the internets.

          • OEL F1 (@oel-f1) said on 11th April 2013, 19:36

            Mark did NOT slow down.

            He said after the race that he had turned down the engine

          • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 20:17

            He said after the race that he had turned down the engine

            He did, he just conveniently forgot to add that he needed to spare more fuel than Seb… Seb’s was also turned down but not as much as Mark’s, since he had more fuel.
            Which means both of them were driving as fast as they could given their respective fuel situations.

          • firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@) said on 12th April 2013, 10:00

            @lajo Turning the engine down because he used more fuel is not correct. Nobody said that. One article appeared after two weeks(german magazine), with this title,but it was only an oppinion of that journalist(german). He said “Apparently in the first 42 laps Webber had consumed clearly more fuel than Vettel and was already in the red”. This is his oppinion, no confirmation from nobody, and I don’t think journalists exist for this. That article appeard to wash Vettel’s image, after two weeks of critics. And I think this article worked on you.

          • Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine) said on 12th April 2013, 10:09

            @sorin

            Turning the engine down because he used more fuel is not correct.

            According to Horner Webber had used more fuel than Vettel at that point.

          • Tasimana said on 12th April 2013, 22:37

            Do you really believe that. If webber pits first he wins.

    • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 14:33

      @dujedcv please read what’s written, he said “Mark didn’t deserve it at the time”, he isn’t saying Mark isn’t a driver worthy of a win, he IS saying that in his mind he did better job overall in the race, which is abundantly clear by him having better tyres and better fuel after the last stop, and the team shouldn’t have tried to stop him.

    • Mads (@mads) said on 11th April 2013, 15:37

      @dujedcv
      If you cannot win, then you don’t deserve to win. I don’t think anyway.

      • SeaHorse (@seahorse) said on 11th April 2013, 16:49

        If you cannot win, then you don’t deserve to win. I don’t think anyway

        @mads So as a corollary can we say Lewis Hamilton is illogical when he says Nico Rosberg deserved the podium finish at Malaysia?

        • Mads (@mads) said on 11th April 2013, 17:02

          @seahorse
          Yes. Rosberg should have done what Vettel did.
          When he didn’t do that, he accepted being the looser. That isn’t a winning strategy, and IMO certainly not deserving of anything other then the position he chose.

          • Joe Papp (@joepa) said on 11th April 2013, 17:23

            Yes. Rosberg should have done what Vettel did.

            @mads – just curious, but do you have a family, specifically any kids? Is that the lesson you would impart to your young son? That a great sportsman like Nico Rosberg, who competes not as a privateer but as a member of a great motor racing team, should’ve defied the legitimate, valid order of his team leader, who is also his employer, and just done whatever served his own personal interests – at the expense of the team?

            If that is what you would encourage your son to do, it would be a shame from the perspective of the concept of personal integrity and fealty and honor.

          • Nomore (@nomore) said on 11th April 2013, 21:06

            @joepa
            +1

          • @joepa – I would teach them in that environment to win at all costs as long as they don’t cheat absolutely. You are seeming to forget that F1 is a very unique job in which the drivers arguably hold more importance than their employers…

          • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 4:44

            There’s a difference in this situation as well. Rosberg was fighting for 3rd place, Vettel was fighting for a win. I think if the Mercs were in RBRs position I don’t think we would’ve seen such a willing Rosberg to be honest. At the very least he would’ve been fuming with the team at the end.

    • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 1:32

      Love how you’re calling Vettel a spoilt brat and it’s usually Webber throwing all the tantrums…

  7. Valentino (@valentino) said on 11th April 2013, 14:03

    “He didn’t deserve it,” Vettel continued.

    Like Vettel deserved last years championship when everyone let him pass in Brazil, including Webber.

    • @valentino – “everyone” is a huge overstatement. Aside from that though, Vettel wasn’t exactly helped by an ambitious move from Senna.

      One isolated event hardly makes him an unworthy champion though.

      • Adam Kibbey (@kibblesworth) said on 11th April 2013, 14:43

        Not everyone, but enough cars to make a big difference when the points margin was so slim. His teammate allowing him to pass was just about justifiable. But the fact that Schumacher and, worst of all, the two Toro Rosso’s allowed him to pass was inexcusable. Granted Alonso did get a lot of help from Massa in the final few races of that season, but there’s a difference between your teammate helping out and drivers from different teams altogether.

        I know worse has happened in F1, but it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

        • TMF (@tmf42) said on 11th April 2013, 15:45

          You really expect that a personal friend and 2 drivers who’d want nothing more than to be his teammate are supposed to give him a hard time in the last race with nothing to gain?

          • Adam Kibbey (@kibblesworth) said on 11th April 2013, 15:59

            They’re meant to be racing drivers for God’s sake! Yes I expect them to give him a hard time.

            Schumacher would have been livid had he been in Alonso’s position; he would have done well to remember what being a real racing driver felt like and deny Vettel such an easy pass. As for the Toro Rosso drivers, I think managing to hold of a triple-world champion in a superior car would have been pretty impressive, don’t you? The kind of stuff that might get you noticed?

          • SeaHorse (@seahorse) said on 11th April 2013, 16:54

            You really expect that a personal friend and 2 drivers who’d want nothing more than to be his teammate are supposed to give him a hard time in the last race with nothing to gain?

            @tmf42 Have those two STR drivers gained any such seat at IRBR as VET’s teammate? I seriously doubt that.

        • Mike Dee (@mike-dee) said on 11th April 2013, 17:04

          But the fact that Schumacher and, worst of all, the two Toro Rosso’s allowed him to pass was inexcusable.

          It was the rational thing for all three of them to do, even if they were not friends or sister-team mates. Vettel was significantly faster than each of them, and would have overtaken them sooner or later anyway. Why would you waste time on a battle you will lose anyway?

          • SeaHorse (@seahorse) said on 11th April 2013, 17:10

            It was the rational thing for all three of them to do, even if they were not friends or sister-team mates. Vettel was significantly faster than each of them, and would have overtaken them sooner or later anyway. Why would you waste time on a battle you will lose anyway?

            @mike-dee If we were to decide who should gain places even without the drivers truly racing, then we should award the win to the driver who actually gets to pole on one lap pace. With due respect to the backmarkers, I infer you do mean to say that the backmarkers are not worthy to drive in the race as they are significantly slower than the front runners?

            Were the two STRs being lapped by Vettel for them to move away just like that?

        • Can you give me some instances from 2012 of the Torro Rosso’s (or the Caterhams, or any other of the slower teams) giving Alonso trouble in getting past them?

          If you can’t then this particular talking point really needs to be dropped.

        • @kibblesworth Vettel was inevitably going to pass them anyway because he was much faster: sure it’s not good to see them just getting out the way almost like lapped traffic, but it was a fight that was going to be over very quickly anyway. It didn’t really make much difference in the end.

      • SeaHorse (@seahorse) said on 11th April 2013, 17:06

        I am unable to understand the double standards of Vettel’s fans. When Vettel disobeyed blatantly in Malaysia, all his fans were raising their voices to say racing drivers should be racing.. But when he gets more points in an undeserved manner of a true racing driver, it is all fair for them even if more than three drivers do not actually race in a race as long as Vettel is gaining.

        • David-A (@david-a) said on 11th April 2013, 19:21

          @seahorse

          1. Racing drivers have the right to pick and choose their fights. It isn’t entertaining to see anyone make it easy for anyone else in my opinion. But you have to consider that sometimes, a midfielder is going to be passed by a faster car and driver, regardless of what he does. Particularly now, that you have such sensitive tyres and DRS.

          2. The main issue often found in discussions regarding Brazil 2012 is the way people like @valentino claim that everyone let Vettel through, which simply is not the case. It is basically another tailor-made excuse to unfairly diminish the 2012 WDC.

        • @seahorse – pretty much as @david-a says: they should be able to do as they please, not be under team instruction. Which is why I don’t like the way the Toro Rosso’s jump out of the way. It’s really not that significant though, which is the point I’m trying to get across at least and also it’s got nothing to do with Vettel and so doesn’t make him any worse!

    • Novotny (@novotny) said on 11th April 2013, 14:36

      It’s a bloody good point.

    • Cristian (@cristian) said on 11th April 2013, 14:36

      SOme people let Alonso pass all season. So…

      • Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 11th April 2013, 14:43

        only his teammate, please gives us examples if you have
        Torro Rosso drivers, Michael Shumacher and Mark Webber comes to my mind

        • @tifoso1989 – Schumacher once, the Toro Rosso drivers perhaps twice each. They are cars that he would’ve breezed by anyway, so overall he probably gained a second the whole season from them. Hardly a championship-winning margin.

          • To clarify, I don’t like the way that Toro Rosso’s drivers jump out of the way if one of the sister cars come up behind, but that is no fault of Vettel’s, so you can’t proclaim legitimately that makes him an “unworthy champion”.

        • Cristian (@cristian) said on 11th April 2013, 15:08

          Several times during a season more than makes up for any example you may come up with.

          • Cristian (@cristian) said on 11th April 2013, 15:11

            And the Schumacher case is ridiculous, he was losing a second a lap, why would he fight him hard, to crash himself?

          • Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 11th April 2013, 15:53

            why would he fight him hard, to crash himself?

            But he did that with Raikonnen , and he risked a crash, he did that also with Kobayashi and pushed him out of the road and they almost crashed
            Double Standard

          • Cristian (@cristian) said on 11th April 2013, 16:10

            No double standard. The speed difference was too big, he would have passed him anyway. You are making such a fuss of this unimportant pass which would have been easy for Vettel whatever Schumacher might have done. If Schumi would have blocked him, he would either have crashed or be passed within 2 corners.
            Anyway, what was I trying to say in the beginning was in response to Valentino saying Vettel was not a worthy champion because he was let to pass by several drivers. He gained less positions in that race and less points than Alonso during a whole season of sacrificing Massa, so that would make Vettel’s only opponent less worthy than him.

          • SeaHorse (@seahorse) said on 11th April 2013, 17:00

            The speed difference was too big

            U mean like what happened at Sepang last race – Speed differential between Alonso and Vettel?

            You are making such a fuss of this unimportant pass which would have been easy for Vettel whatever Schumacher might have done.

            It is obviously not an unimportant pass, is it? When he can do wheel to wheel getting so close to Kimi’s car if he really was doing racing, then he should obviously had raced Vettel whether he was in a faster car or not.

      • Todfod (@todfod) said on 11th April 2013, 14:45

        His teammate.

        its very different from two Toro Rosso drivers and a 7 time world champ just pulling over

      • karter22 (@karter22) said on 11th April 2013, 15:30

        Name one!!! Please. Cheap comment!

        I can name 3 out of the top of my head that let SV pass in Brasil… JEV, RICCIARDO and SCHUMACHER (biggest let down by the way).

      • Yappy said on 11th April 2013, 19:29

        Anyone stop to consider the drivers that let Vettel through in Brazil prefered him to win the WDC rather than Alonso?

    • Valentino (@valentino) said on 11th April 2013, 19:47

      Ok you guys, did you ever think what would happen if it was the other way around in Malaysia. If Vettel was in front and Webber was faster? And if Webber would have overtaken Vettel despite “multiple 12″?! I think Webber would get a far worse treatment than Vettel did! Firstly because Vettel is a whiny little b***h, and secondly Helmut Marko would raise hell because of what Webber would have done. Lets face it, Red Bull hate when Webber wins in front of Vettel, and the other way around is “what things should be like”.
      The issue here is not if someone was aloud to race or not, but if someone is an honest man and a driver who respects his teammate and Vettel is not. He disappointed everyone as an unfair driver. He just should have said “Guys I’m racing him” and in my eyes his decision to pass would be ok. But he acted as a backstabber.

      • David-A (@david-a) said on 11th April 2013, 20:22

        @valentinoIf Webber would get worse treatment than Vettel, it would be because of their respective positions in the team. It would not be because Vettel is “whiny” (something that he was earlier in the race, in fairness). It would be because of their respective positions in the team. Vettel is younger, better, and by far the better prospect for the team continuing its run of success. Webber finished a distant 3rd, and 6th in 2 of Vettel’s titles, and was near Vettel in the third mostly because of superior car reliability.

        In fairness to you, Vettel was fooling no-one with the claim he “misunderstood the team order. At least he’s not sticking to that story. But how is he an unfair driver? MW used more fuel, and more tyres just to be a couple of seconds ahead. Webber was definitely racing at his final pitstop when he came out. Vettel didn’t have to save as much fuel. If anyone was unfair, it was the RBR pitwall, for using team orders (in the 2nd race of the year) against someone who had more in reserve for the final stint.

    • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 1:38

      Considering Webber was helping Alonso in Brazil 2012 I think it evens itself out don’t you think? Imagine if Massa squeezed Alonso in the first corner and made that mess.. he’d be blasted out of Ferrari before he could say sorry..

  8. Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 11th April 2013, 14:09

    Good for him. Good for both. Good for the team. They handled it wrongly, now it’s time to make it dead clear. They always said there was equallity and no orders but plenty of times they have followed that direction.

    Now it’s time to let that by. If they get to race as hard as in Sepang with the thumbs up from the team, then who really doesn’t feel excited about it? in the end, it was a fantastic battle with same machinery, for a win between two very good drivers.

    And maybe the situation allowed it to happen, but the better guy won, and he got punished by the press and people, for doing what the other guy has always asked and has always done: race hard to the flag.

    As Vettel says, Webber isn’t your regular team player willing to yield to make life easier to the other guy on the other side of the garage. And if Red Bull can’t trust their drivers, if they cannot get inside their brains that they know where they are and who the other guy they are racing comes from, then they need to sort it out, because I really doubt Turkey 2010 would happen again.

    They better keep it like this. Webber can help the team by winning races in a much more effective way than Massa did (thanksfully) with Alonso. Winning and taking points of rival teams is a lot better than putting all the resorces into one driver and ask the other to follow suit… if there’s no will to win (because you’re not allowed to), then whatever you do won’t be as helpful.

    Hats off to Vettel for saying all this, even if it comes late in the day and specially after acting like he did in Malaysia, saying that Webber was the winner and all that c… He’s there to win. Just like Mark.

  9. Still camileon (@stillcamileon) said on 11th April 2013, 14:09

    With Webber proberbly out of a job at the end of the season he now has only has one last chance to win the Championship but will Redbull let him, the simply answer is “No”, they will be looking for their place in history with Vettel winning four championship in a row, so all Webber can do now is “stop” Vettel from winning and secure his own place in history as the man who helped the other teams to win the championship, of course Redbull will do everything in its power to stop this by giving mark a poorly setup car or even a unreliable car, Im not a fan of Webber but i do feel for him and my opinion of Redbull and the behaviour of Adrian Newey right after the last race was truly appalling.

    • Drop Valencia! said on 11th April 2013, 14:30

      RBR has shown their best support to Webber since early 2009 so I disagree with this, also Newey was not happy with Vettel at the end of Malaysia so no idea what you are on about there….

    • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 11th April 2013, 14:36

      @stillcamileon appart from the odd epsiode (front wing at Silverstone), Webber has had the same chances as Vettel.

      People forget that he was ahead Vettel after the summer break last year, with 2 wins to his name to Vettel’s sole win at Barhain. He had the chances, things didn’t go his way. Be it the development of the car going more to Vettel’s liking, or whatever, but he has the chances.

      If he can drive like at Sepang the whole year, he’ll be a contender. And Red Bull would let him… Heck, they give him the opportunity to win races even after all that happened in Brazil which is supposed to not be around Red Bull’s happy thoughts about Webber !

      • Still camileon (@stillcamileon) said on 11th April 2013, 14:47

        As i said i’m no fan of Webber but if you believe that Redbull cant influence who wins a race from the pit lane then your very nieve, even 2 psi on tyre pressure could ruin a race for a driver, yes i agree Mark’s not taken his chances but now all the work is done to build a car around Vettel ( perhaps rightly so), All the fans want is fairness and its quite clear Redbull are unable to offer this to any of Vettels team mate.

        • Fer no.65 (@fer-no65) said on 11th April 2013, 15:34

          @stillcamileon why would Webber sign in season after season if he felt that way?.

          I’m not saying Red Bull cannot influence car performance, but why would they do that? Webber got pole in Korea… they were not pushing him back, were they?

      • Roberto (@roberto) said on 12th April 2013, 4:51

        He had the chances, things didn’t go his way.

        That’s just sugar coating the truth that Webber is just not good enough to win the WDC. He’s good enough to be a helping driver in securing the WCC and the fact he’s made such a massive mess out of this whole thing (by suffering from the Barichello syndrome and running his mouth to many times) should’ve given Red Bull a bit more food for thought last year. TBH I don’t think they should’ve renewed his contract after Brazil 2012.

    • David-A (@david-a) said on 11th April 2013, 19:27

      All Webber can do now is “stop” Vettel from winning and secure his own place in history as the man who helped the other teams to win the championship

      What sort of idiot wants to be in the history books for that? The only decent thing Mark Webber can do, if he’s so unhappy, is win the championship for himself.

  10. AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse) said on 11th April 2013, 14:12

    Vettel is not winning any points in my book with this attitude. He doesn’t want to obey team orders? Fine, he should have said so before the race when the multi21 was discussed, not disobey them during the race.

    As for “Mark didn’t deserve it”, is he still talking about the first corner in Brazil? Because I can’t recall any other instances when Mark should have let Vettel by. And anyway, Vettel didn’t deserve it either. The team granted Vettel the undercut on Webber, but both drivers were also told the mult21 instruction. If they were really racing, Webber should have been allowed to pit first, as is customary, and then Vettel would have had a chance to reel him in and pass – which he could have done all race but didn’t.

    • Still camileon (@stillcamileon) said on 11th April 2013, 14:18

      In a normal team mark should have been allowed to defend his position but he is not allowed to until now as he has nothing to lose as his job’s already gone, Come on mark dont go out with a wimper go out with a bang.

    • mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 11th April 2013, 14:22

      Wow, so many inaccuracies in one post.

      1) “team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.” – Byron Young
      2) Mark didn’t deserve… for Vettel to follow teamorders in his favor. Vettel explains in the very same interview why he felt like that: “I never had support from his side.”
      3) It is not customary. Plenty of times Webber has pitted first when Vettel was in front.
      4) It is certainly not customary in the situation where Vettel was under threat of Hamilton because he obeyed teamorders earlier on not to overtake Webber.
      5) When Webber was given the undercut in the second and third stop, this gave him half a second advantage. The undercut was not worth 5 seconds.

      • AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse) said on 11th April 2013, 14:41

        Wow, such an extensive enumeration from an ardent Vettel supporter.

        1) The term ‘Multi21′ was not first used and explained over team radio during the Malaysian GP. When this term was discussed, and this is most likely during the Malaysian GP weekend (and before you say “You don’t know this”, indeed I don’t but I don’t find it likely that they would dig up some code words they came up with three years ago), Vettel should have manned up and said he wasn’t going to hold station behind Mark.
        2) “Mark didn’t deserve… for Vettel to follow teamorders in his favor” Yes, that’s what I meant, so how is this an inaccuracy?
        3) It is customary when team mates are racing one another. I don’t know what examples you have in mind, but when one guy is 20 seconds behind it doesn’t matter, of course. I do believe in Red Bull this is customary when they are racing. For instance in the 2010 season, when they were often 1-2 and racing each other, the leader got to do the (one and only) pit stop first.
        4) Which team orders were those? I only heard Vettel’s request to have Mark move aside for him.
        5) I said nothing about the value of the undercut in terms of time, so how I can be inaccurate here? The point is that if Webber had been allowed to pit first, then Vettel would not have been side-by-side with him at the start of their final stint, but Webber would have been seconds up the road. Could Vettel have beaten him still in that scenario? Possibly, but like I mentioned earlier, he could also have passed him at any earlier point during the race but didn’t.

        • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 14:56

          @mnmracer There was definitely an agreement before the race. Mark said so himself on the podium.

          I find it strange that suddenly Red Bull comes out with that weird fuel story and now they claim it was a decision taken during the race? very convenient don’t you think?

          Webber was right Vettel is being protected as usual. On race day itself the team seemed disappointed but after three weeks of rest they know Webber will no return for them in 2014 so now they want to cover for Vettel because they don’t want to lose him. He is looking more like Schumacher in a frightening way but Ferrari has a clear no1 driver and Red Bull has always claimed that not to be the case for them so thats were the comparison differs.

          Helmut Marko: And all shall be well my son.

          • mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 11th April 2013, 15:25

            1) Mark said no such thing on the podium: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14414.html

            2) How does ‘the fuel story’ and making a decision during the race contradict eachother?

            3) Vettel got the same kind of protection Webber got after openly defying th team. What kind of message do you think they would have sent if they had punished Vettel for something they did not punish Webber for? “I know you’re 3xWDC, but your team mate is allowed to pull more **** then you.”

          • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 16:10

            @mnmracer
            1) It seems you missed this sentence: I want to race as well, but in the end the team made a decision, which we always say before the race is probably how it’s going to be - we look after the tyres, get the car to the end and in the end Seb made his own decisions today and will have protection and that’s the way it goes.
            2) My bad: I meant those stories are just to good to be true.
            3)Webber protected? The team wasn’t happy at all at Silverstone 2011 and let’s not forget the ranting form Marko. Or did you forget all of that.

          • mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 11th April 2013, 16:16

            1) Which means that they talk through scenario’s and what to do in such a case. Or do you think they thought that with Vettel on pole Webber starting 4th, “probably how it’s going to be” is Webber being ahead after the final pit stops?
            2) Ah, because something is ‘too good to be true’, it’s wrong. Even though it makes perfect sense that when a driver is low on fuel, you make a decision at that moment and don’t stick to whatever strategy would have him run out of fuel.
            3) Are you saying that the team was happy with Vettel after Malaysia?

          • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 16:22

            @mnmracer I quit because you’re a blockhead and I’m a blockhead :-)

          • mnmracer (@mnmracer) said on 11th April 2013, 16:24

            @force-maikel
            Well, I would at least like an answer to point 3. Taking into consideration how they have treated Webber (no actual punishment), what do you expect the team to do to Vettel and if they apply a double standard by punishing him, what message would that send.

          • Force Maikel (@force-maikel) said on 11th April 2013, 16:31

            I don’t expect them to punish vettel, this isn’t school. These are grown up men, if they take a certain decision they should stick with it and not first apologize and then retract it when the team says almost nothing about the incident.

            And now I would like to apologize to you because I haven’t had the best of nights and have been grumpy all day long. There is no need for me to take it out on a fellow F1 fanatic.

          • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 16:52

            Webber was helped by team orders during the whole race once he caught Webber after the first pit stops. “3 seconds gap”, they kept telling him. They also told him, “be patient, it’s only half race yet”.
            After all this, it’s very unfair towards Vettel to issue the multi 21, seeing as he’s been told to stay behind all race, this effectively meant taking away his only chance to fix that screwed up first pit stop timing. After the last pit stop, Vettel had the faster tyres, the warner tyres, the more fuel, and the DRS distance, so he was clearly in a better position to win the race. And by now we now that there was no pre-race agreement of an “automatic ceasefire” for the last stint. Vettel must have been furious and rightfully so.
            As time goes by and we get the details on what really happened, I’m starting to lose respect for Webber, his PR whining with all the false hints at pre-race agreements and turned down engines (low fuel levels anyone?)
            Which doesn’t mean I liked Vettel’s fake apologies after the race.

    • Churaragi (@churaragi) said on 11th April 2013, 16:06

      Vettel is not winning any points in my book with this attitude.

      Good thing the only points he needs to win are the FIA F1 World Championship points.

  11. Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989) said on 11th April 2013, 14:18

    Vettel the monster Red Bull created

    • Still camileon (@stillcamileon) said on 11th April 2013, 14:21

      Spot on.

    • Adam Kibbey (@kibblesworth) said on 11th April 2013, 14:53

      Hardly a monster. But there is certainly a win at all costs streak in him that people either find compelling or repelling, sometimes at the same time. People (me included) love Senna but some of the things he did on track were questionable in terms of legality and sportsmanship. And lets not even get started on Schumacher.

      I am fine with Vettel racing. But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end (despite his team mate being in full compliance with them, putting him at a significant disadvantage), its just not sportsmanlike and it doesn’t show the real skill and adherence to fair play that I associate with the best.

      • Dan (@esquilax) said on 11th April 2013, 15:04

        +1 Yes this sums it up for me too

      • @kibblesworth

        But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end…its just not sportsmanlike

        I don’t like it at all either and I would prefer that the drivers just shut up and got on with it, but many of them are like that, not just Vettel. They are all selfish and out only for themselves (they have to if they want to have any hope of being world champions).

        despite his team mate being in full compliance with them, putting him at a significant disadvantage

        If by full compliance you mean having slowed down, that is entirely untrue. He only had a lower engine setting because he had used more fuel in taking and staying ahead of Vettel in the earlier phases. It is just treating Webber as stupid if you genuinely think he wasn’t doing everything in his power to stay ahead of Vettel – there is no way he would have knowingly put himself at a disadvantage, especially considering he’s been the first to ignore team orders in the past. So I simply don’t accept that argument.

        • Adam Kibbey (@kibblesworth) said on 11th April 2013, 16:11

          @vettel1 You are correct in that selfishness is to be expected and I fully support drivers to go for it if and when they can. I just don’t like it when drivers that we know are skilled and talented resort to underhand tactics such as Vettel did in Malaysia. Vettel clearly isn’t the only driver who does this sort of thing, and he won’t be the last, but obviously Malaysia is fresh on our minds.

          And by full compliance I simply mean that Webber was expecting team orders to kick in after the final pitstop (which had been discussed prior to the race) and had presumably raced up until then with that in mind. If I were him, I would have used up more fuel trying to stay ahead of Vettel early on if I wasn’t expecting to race my teammate after the final pitstop.

          • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 16:58

            Webber was expecting team orders to kick in after the final pitstop (which had been discussed prior to the race)

            Red Bull said the multi21 was an ad-hoc decision, not pre-discussed.

          • The two drivers were not racing up until the final pit stop. Red Bull were instructing Vettel to stay behind Webber from lap 24 onwards. So the claim that Webber was ahead at the final pit stops on merit is itself without merit.

            It is in that sense that Webber would not have deserved the win – it would have been a win given to him purely by team orders.

      • karter22 (@karter22) said on 11th April 2013, 15:48

        hear, hear!!
        COTD for me!

      • Lajo (@lajo) said on 11th April 2013, 16:56

        But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race

        He did that after the team told him to maintain a 3 seconds gap behind Webber. His request for a “team order” was only a reaction to a “team order” against him”.

      • when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end

        That’s a highly distorted and incomplete description of events.

        First Vettel was ordered to stay behind Webber – all the way back at lap 24. By lap 29 he was being instructed to “be patient”. Webber was backing him up into Hamlton – who eventually jumped him at a pit stop – which prompted Vettel to complain that Webber was too slow. He WAS too slow.

        After twenty laps of obeying team orders and sacrificing his own race by staying behind his teammate Vettel finally took matters into his own hands. The result was the best racing of the entire GP – against a teammate who had NOT “turned down his engine”.

        • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 17:54

          @jonsan , I seriously don’t know how anyone can argue with your comment or say anything bad about Vettel after what you wrote.
          Good on ya :)

        • Adam Kibbey (@kibblesworth) said on 11th April 2013, 18:18

          @mnm101m well you can dislike it for being inaccurate if you’d like. It has been confirmed by Red Bull that Webber’s cut his engine more than Vettel, for a start.

          • @kibblesworth – that was because he had used more fuel than Vettel in the earlier stages, so what was proclaimed that he had turned his engine down simply to abide by a team order is not true. So in the sense that Webber was unfairly handicapped, @jonsan is entirely correct in saying that notion was rubbish: Webber got the benefit initially only to be at a disadvantage later – nothing unfair about that.

          • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 18:39

            what he said

          • It has been confirmed by Red Bull that Webber’s cut his engine more than Vettel, for a start

            When exactly was each drivers engine “turned down”? Webber clocked by far his fastest lap of the race after his engine was supposedly “turned down”. Perhaps Webber should run the entirety of the Chinese GP with his engine “turned down” – since this seems to result in his going faster than when it is “turned up”.

        • Daniel Chico (@daniel-chico) said on 13th April 2013, 19:34

          @jonsan @mnm101

          First Vettel was ordered to stay behind Webber – all the way back at lap 24. By lap 29 he was being instructed to “be patient”. Webber was backing him up into Hamlton – who eventually jumped him at a pit stop – which prompted Vettel to complain that Webber was too slow. He WAS too slow.

          After twenty laps of obeying team orders and sacrificing his own race by staying behind his teammate Vettel finally took matters into his own hands. The result was the best racing of the entire GP – against a teammate who had NOT “turned down his engine”.

          I saw some people commenting here that this story is getting old and everybody has (have?) their (his/her?) opinions on the subject formed by now, so there is no point arguing anymore…

          But your comment was the definitive one to a 180° turn on my views: I was completely disgusted by what VET did in Malaysia, but now I can put myself in his position and, although I certainly would not do what VET did (and that’s why I am a government employee, not a race driver), I now applaud him for his actions (not so much for his words).

        • Daniel Chico (@daniel-chico) said on 13th April 2013, 19:50

          For others that may be undecided: I did not change my opinion just by hearing the “vocal minority”. Although no fan can say honestly he/she is in favor of team orders, we know it’s impossible or impractical to regulate/ban team orders… I believe that, putting Malaysia aside to see the larger picture, the best way to eliminate the threat of TO is for all drivers commit to this stance: “we all won’t accept TO, we are race drivers, we will race”. “Ok, team boss, you can fire me, but your next driver would do the same in my position”… Yes, I know that the teams have the money, the teams give the means for the drivers to shine… all I’m saying is that we should apply the categorical imperative here and ask ourselves what we want to see: just an engineering competition, or an engineering competition plus pure racing.

  12. Now if Mercedes could follow suit, that would be great! Team orders are completely misplaced this early in the season under any circumstances in my view, so I’m thankful Red Bull have taken that decision and are allowing their drivers to fight.

  13. redlight said on 11th April 2013, 14:24

    Seb should be far more aggressive over this. 2 of his 3 WDC’s were won by just a few points, he should simply say he knows the importance of every point and won’t ever settle for less points than he could possibly score. The number of people who watch F1 and are happy to watch cars follow each other home instead of racing is staggering – if I lost respect for any driver in Malaysia it was Nico. The race runs til the chequered flag, not til your last pitstop. What a total bore the last stint would have been if we were just watching cars drive around in a procession.

  14. Still camileon (@stillcamileon) said on 11th April 2013, 14:31

    When will F1 listen and stop letting the team share the points from both drivers, its the simple way forward to allow racing until the race finishes, Redbull 1 with Vettel takes is points towards the champoinship,RedBull 2 with Webber take their points towards the champoinship. This way 12 team owners with 24 teams after all each driver has his own mechanics and crew anyway.

  15. Liam McShane (@motor_mad) said on 11th April 2013, 14:37

    Can we just agree at some point in their RBR career’s they have both ignored team orders, one failed in doing it and the other succeeded.

    • MNM101 (@mnm101) said on 11th April 2013, 14:44

      But that would not coincide with praising Mark and bashing Sebastian

    • celeste (@celeste) said on 11th April 2013, 22:59

      @motor_mad that will logic, and as you can see, sometimes logic and motor sport don´t come hand in hand.

      @mnm101 Yes, some people won´t be happy until Vettel is giving Death Penalty over this, even when it is stupid and he is just doint what everybody price Webber to be honest.

      Finaly after hearing Webber being a martir for the last three years it was time to heard Vettel side of the story. So Kudos to him!!!!!

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