Red Bull gives up on team orders as Vettel admits he would defy them again

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix

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Christian Horner has confirmed Red Bull will stop using team orders at the end of the race following the row which broke out at the end of the Malaysian Grand Prix.

It came as Sebastian Vettel told reporters he would defy similar instructions again and felt his team mate did not deserve to win the race.

Horner told the BBC the decision was taken by Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz: “I had discussions with Dietrich and we agreed that Red Bull is not a fan of team orders.”

“Therefore we will not impose team orders at the end of a race. However, we expect the drivers to act on the information they have from the team.”

Vettel told reporters he did not immediately understand the order he was given during the race: “Had I understood the message and had I thought about it, reflected on it, thought what the team wanted to do, to leave Mark in first place and me finishing second… I think I would have thought about it and I would probably have done the same thing.”

“He didn’t deserve it,” Vettel continued. “There is quite a conflict, because on the one hand I am the kind of guy who respects team decisions and the other hand, probably Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time.”

“I don’t like to talk ill of other people. It’s not my style. I think I said enough. The bottom line is that I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I won,” he added.

Vettel said he did not expect it would change how far his team mate went in supporting him because “I never had support from his side.”

“In terms of my relationship with Mark, I respect him a lot as a racing driver but I think there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team but didn’t.”

Both Red Bull drivers have openly disobeyed team orders in the past: Webber did so at Silverstone in 2011 and there was further friction in Brazil last year when Vettel was campaigning to win the championship title.

Webber said Red Bull choosing not to use team orders would make things “probably easier” in the future.

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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282 comments on “Red Bull gives up on team orders as Vettel admits he would defy them again”

  1. “However, we expect the drivers to act on the information they have from the team”… Which means we will have team orders disguised as “save your tyres”, “save your fuel” or “save your engine” kind of messages. Same old, same old.

    1. more or less that, yes.

    2. Nothing related to your reply but, What would happen (at Milton Keynes) if Mark Webber wins the championship?

      1. TheStigsAmericanCousin
        11th April 2013, 14:51

        Milton Keynes would already be in a state of shock since loosing Vettel in a airplane crash or something as horrific would have to happen first.

        1. This much sarcasm is winning… lol

          1. For Webber to beat Vettel to the crown he would have to suddenly become faster and more consistent than the young German. He is neither and never will be. He is Coulthard to Hakkinen, Barrichello to Schumacher. A useful pair of hands in the WCC and thats it.

          2. @coefficient Coulthard beat Hakkinen in several years, just not the ones when they won the WDC.

          3. Well Coulthard had the best/equal best car on the grid in 5 seasons in his Formula One career: 1995, 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2003. Given he didn’t beat his teammate in any of those seasons its a fair comment.

    3. @coefficient I hope Mark reads that comment and uses it as motivation to prove you and many other people wrong. I’m no massive Mark Webber fan, I like him as much as the next guy but this just seemed a tad harsh, I hope you end up with egg on your face with this one and Mark has a brilliant season.

        1. Sebastian Vettel aka Eric Cartman – “whateva !! I do what i want &%^&$”

          1. +10…….that’s great!!

      1. The one problem with that is that Webber is always going to have problems until he learns to use first gear!!! I don’t know why he bothers to qualify. hell, even if starts on poll, by the first corner, he’s in 8th or 9th place. Then he spends the first third of the race destroying his tires and burning extra fuel fighting the pack to get back on the podium.
        All that fighting and passing while Seb is up front cruising free of everyone is just killing him. Seriously, if Webber knew how to start and could stay up front…what would the total WDC points look like? He’s got a great car, just like Seb. He’s not quite as quick on qualifying…but he’s good at managing the race once he’s up there. What would the points difference between them be if they could just teach him how to START???

        1. The one bad start he’s had for quite a long time was due to a KERS failure. I believe he fixed his start problems last year.

          1. I hope you’re right. Because his starts not only affect him, but everyone who is swerving around to avoid him.

          2. Supposedly Webber’s KERS design is compromised by his height, and this regularly contributes to the poor starts. Webber has never been a good starter though – think of his time at Jaguar. And I would have thought Red Bull would have found a fix by now.

      2. If losing a World Title to your team mate three times in a row is not enough motivation then I highly doubt this will add much more to it..

      3. @Rob Wilson
        Just being realistic. Webber is not in the same league as Vettel, no.2 status in that team is inevitable for him as long as he has a team mate of Vettel’s calibre. The same would probably be true if he partnered Alonso or Hamilton. It’s just a fact, you can’t deny the numbers. Vettel has thrashed Webber in their time together, conclusively! Like it or not the team favour Vettel because they know he will get the job done.

        I’ll be the first to eat my hat if Mark proves me wrong but I very much doubt he will as that would require 4 titles on the trot with Seb as his team mate. Not likely hey?

    4. Is this the end of RedBull Racing??

      1. @jjjj

        it seems more like the start of Red Bull racing :)

      2. I think its great fodder for Rush 2!

    5. So right, at least those less descriptive calls are probably going to be better understood.

  2. Sorry but the arrogance is just to much “He didn’t deserve it,” I didn’t know he had the right to decide that. And Webber did not disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011, he stayed behind him for two laps, showed his nose and then complied with the team order. Vettel did not in Malaysia, he actually passed Mark, huge difference I would think.

    1. @keithcollantine I’m disapointed you didn’t note that in the article keith, for the rest you’ve been an uploading machine today!

      1. Maybe because Keith doesn’t share this opinion. This is what he said about it here:

        Webber himself said “I ignored the team and I was battling to the end.”

        If you watch the video it’s clear Webber was trying to pass and the only reason he didn’t get through was because Vettel defended his position.

        1. I believe Force Maikel is refferring to 0:25 in this video

          http://vimeo.com/58130062

          where Webber lifts and lets Vettel back in front, with nothing on the track causing him to lift.

          1. He lifted because he ran out of race track. Not because he wanted to let Vettel go free. The bottom line is Webber looks out for himself just like Vettel. People just prefer to attack Vettel because he is more successful.

      2. Yes, because Vettel being a better racer and not letting Webber pass at Silverstone 2011 while making it stick in Malaysia 2013 is too unfeasable of an explanation..

    2. @force-maikel How is this arrogance, its fact, Seb had better tyres, better fuel and better race all around, there was no reason for the team to stop him.
      After Silverstone Mark wrote on his column for BBC that he tried and FAILED to pass Seb, he wasn’t just trying to make a point that he’s faster.

      1. 1. “He didn’t deserve it,”
        2. “There is quite a conflict, because on the one hand I am the kind of guy who respects team decisions and the other hand, probably Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time.”
        3. “I don’t like to talk ill of other people. It’s not my style. I think I said enough. The bottom line is that I was racing, I was faster, I passed him, I won,”

        How arrogant can he be? He didn’t have much credit left with me but that has just been vaporized into thin air. He is a great driver, but not a great champion. Talk like this is unworthy of a TRIPLE formula one world champion!

        1. artificial racer
          11th April 2013, 18:14

          What are you on about? He WAS faster at the end of the race. His car had more life left. Mark could not have held him back.

      2. Well Vettel can be right about being faster and arrogant.

        Although I think Vettel was very sneaky in taking the win in the last race, ignoring the team instructions to reduce engine power to get close enough to Webber to pass him, Webber really was a bit on thin ice to challenge Vettel about team orders when he has gone against them in the past. I have to admit I’ve changed my mind on this. If you compare how Massa boxed in Hamilton at São Paulo 2007 to let Raikonnen through at the start with Webber blocking Vettel last year, there is no team spirit between the Red Bull drivers, at all. So what did Webber expect, truthfully? His actions suggest the frustration of someone who decided to stay in a team that placed him firmly in number two spot after their tussles in 2010. Basically Vettel has turned the situation around sharply in his favour, telling Webber that he, Vettel, is faster, the team backs him and he’ll do whatever he wants to win with their full backing. So Webber can only answer him on the track. Which unfortunately he has shown himself incapable of doing the last two years.

      3. Mark was 4 seconds ahead of vettel before he was told to slow down after his last pit stop, and was told by the team that Vettel would slow down too. Had Mark not slowed down, Vettel would have had a harder time passing, not that he couldn’nt but it would have been more difficult.

        In Siverstone 2011, was Vettel told to slow down and reasured that Mark would too? IIRC, Mark was catching Vettel on pure pace but the team asked him not to pass, which is different than how Vettel took advantage of Mark’s actions once he had slowed down per team order.

        To me, it’s not the same situation, Mark caught Vettel on Merit and disobeyed an order to stay put, but Vettel caught Mark because Vettel was supposed to slow down too (as he agreed to) but didnt. Mark was selfish, but Vettel downright cheated.

        Feel free to correct my memories of Silverstone or answer my questions if I got anything wrong, I’m open to all perspectives.

        1. @gumbercules you might want to read what Mark Webber said about the subject himself today. Much less conspiracy to it, actually.

    3. @force-maikel

      Webber did not disobey team orders at Silverstone 2011

      The man himself says otherwise.

      1. @keithcollantine Well he the man may have said that but he was clearly faster, just showed his nose and then complied with the team order. In the end it was his own decision to not stick with the passing maneuver. It still gives Vettel no excuse to back stab his teammate like that. Red Bull has made it clear that no team orders will be issued form now on and that’s they way it should be.

        1. Almost forgot how Webber raced in Brazil 2012? It is only just that Vettel passed Webber. Webber is all fun on the outside and the heart on his sleeve style, but as a teammate he is utterly terrible. He even cannot support a teammate on the final race which will decide a championship. If you cannot do that, how do you expect your teammate will support you?

          1. Yeah, On the first lap he could have been more helpful but He let him by in the middle of the race so I don’t see the problem.

          2. If he’s a terrible team mate, then why did he beat Alonso to the flag at Silverstone, for instance? those 7 points he took of Alonso also helped Vettel, you know…

          3. Yeah, On the first lap he could have been more helpful but He let him by in the middle of the race so I don’t see the problem.

            There would not have been a need to let him through in the first place had Webber not squeezed Vettel in the first corner, where they were already side by side thanks to one of Mark’s legendary starts. And in that case, Vettel wouldn’t have been exposed to Senna’s kamikaze “I’ll jump out of nowhere and break out 3 cars before this corner” attack…

          4. @fer-no65 He didn’t do it for Vettel though…

          5. @guilherme ultimately, he did… that’s racing. What else should he do? leave the door open everytime he’s behind? no, he should be racing and scoring 1-2’s with Vettel.

        2. So your response is basically “Webber was lying through his teeth then, and on the many other occasions when he has vehemently insisted that he would not obey team orders and not assist his teammate”?

        3. @force-maikel

          just showed his nose and then complied with the team order.

          He did not ‘comply with the order’ in any sense. As he admitted that it’s futile to pretend otherwise in a transparent attempt to find a stick to beat Vettel with.

          Red Bull has made it clear that no team orders will be issued form now on and that’s they way it should be.

          Agreed.

          1. @keithcollantine

            The only reason we ever get get orders is when the boffins on the bench decide to issue them, unless they are banned from doing so, how can we complain that they do it?

            It’s the same as red bull’s flexi-wing, it was ok when it was legal.

            Although make no mistake, I absolutely detest team orders, how can we criticize them without acknowledging that a team has the right to use them, and as such, will, when it’s in their interests.

          2. @mike Two answers come to mind immediately:

            1. Those on the pit wall aren’t infallible. Vettel’s assessment of how much punishment his car could take proved to be correct, just as it did in Korea last year when they were also begging him to back off.

            2. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is always right.

          3. @keithcollantine

            On 2, although I agree with you, do you think, other than re-banning team orders, there is any other way to avoid them? And that’s assuming banning them would stop them, which it didn’t before.

            I think that the is too much motivation for said bench boffins to want to use them to really stop it.

            Which, is really sad.

  3. “Had I understood the message and had I thought about it, reflected on it, thought what the team wanted to do, to leave Mark in first place and me finishing second… I think I would have thought about it and I would probably have done the same thing.”

    http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1785745.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/multi21-1785745.jpg

    Really Sebastian? How low have you fallen

    1. “It was obviously a difficult situation, but I still feel comfortable about what I did.”
      Guess who said that?

      1. Guess who eventually did comply with team orders?

        1. No he didn’t. Trying but failing to break an order is not the same as obeying an order.

          Plus you are burning him for what he said. Webber said the exact same thing.

          1. Well it’s all over now, Red Bull have made team orders persona non grata (for now). I just hate how this stupid incident has divided F1 fans everywhere

    2. Actually he said sorry 15 days ago and now he says all that?

      Sorry Seb, I’m officially backing Webber to beat you, it’s a long shot but…

      1. If you’re using this as an excuse to not support him then you never were a fan to begin with (or were always against him). Just because he was full of emotion/confusion 15 minutes after driving a grand prix (and tried to explain them) and now had 2 weeks time to reflect about his decisions doesn’t make him any less of a great driver..

        1. Agreed. Vettel wants to race. So let them race. No more whining from Webber. Prove it on the race track. That’s the F1 I like, not this team order stuff. If they stay true to their words, Red Bull has gained a fan.

  4. Who better the police team order than the drivers themselves…

  5. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@)
    11th April 2013, 13:56

    From now seems to be a fair battle at Red Bull, but let’s see what will happen with Webber’s kers…

  6. Vettel needs to get a slap in the face and foot in the a**. How can he, during the race, see and decide whether his team mate deserves to win or not? He has a team that is revolving around him and he still wants more, like a spoiled little kid that he is.

    1. @gatekiller please read what’s written, he said “Mark didn’t deserve it at the time”, he isn’t saying Mark isn’t a driver worthy of a win, he IS saying that in his mind he did better job overall in the race, which is abundantly clear by him having better tyres and better fuel after the last stop, and the team shouldn’t have tried to stop him.

      1. @mnm101 @dujedcv actually I´m reading this one as “Why would Mark win by team orders of he doesn´t follow them?”. In other words, if Marke Webber had helped Vettel or listening to the team orders where they were apply to him Vettel would have respected the team orders.

        By example Vettel would have follow team orders for Massa.

        1. @celeste

          Jesus wouldn’t like. If someone harms you, you don’t have to harm him back to make it right. Right?

          LOL.

          1. @jcost Good catholic little girl that I´m, wouldn´t aprove either.

            But this is F1, so bring on the Tailon Law!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      2. This would be true if mark had not slowed down after told by the team to slow dow, thus reducing his 4 second advantage on Vettel.

        I think Vettel may have passed Mark anyways as he had a better last stint, but it would not have been as easy had Mark not slowed down.

        1. Mark did NOT slow down. He himself said today that his tyres were over by the last pit stop and Vettel caught him on the fresh soft ones. He wanted to pit one lap earlier (e. g. when Vettel pitted), but the team gave Vettel priority so that they could cover Hamilton who pitted one more lap earlier. Mark admitted that Vettel was given priority to cover Hamilton, not because the team wanted to favour him against Webber.
          He might have slowed down AFTER the last pit stop (with Vettel in his back all the way), but that was due to having less fuel than Vettel, read up on it on the internets.

          1. Mark did NOT slow down.

            He said after the race that he had turned down the engine

          2. He said after the race that he had turned down the engine

            He did, he just conveniently forgot to add that he needed to spare more fuel than Seb… Seb’s was also turned down but not as much as Mark’s, since he had more fuel.
            Which means both of them were driving as fast as they could given their respective fuel situations.

          3. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@)
            12th April 2013, 10:00

            @lajo Turning the engine down because he used more fuel is not correct. Nobody said that. One article appeared after two weeks(german magazine), with this title,but it was only an oppinion of that journalist(german). He said “Apparently in the first 42 laps Webber had consumed clearly more fuel than Vettel and was already in the red”. This is his oppinion, no confirmation from nobody, and I don’t think journalists exist for this. That article appeard to wash Vettel’s image, after two weeks of critics. And I think this article worked on you.

          4. @sorin

            Turning the engine down because he used more fuel is not correct.

            According to Horner Webber had used more fuel than Vettel at that point.

          5. Do you really believe that. If webber pits first he wins.

    2. @dujedcv please read what’s written, he said “Mark didn’t deserve it at the time”, he isn’t saying Mark isn’t a driver worthy of a win, he IS saying that in his mind he did better job overall in the race, which is abundantly clear by him having better tyres and better fuel after the last stop, and the team shouldn’t have tried to stop him.

      1. sorry for the doublpost

        1. LOL Maybe you REALLY meant it?

    3. @dujedcv
      If you cannot win, then you don’t deserve to win. I don’t think anyway.

      1. If you cannot win, then you don’t deserve to win. I don’t think anyway

        @mads So as a corollary can we say Lewis Hamilton is illogical when he says Nico Rosberg deserved the podium finish at Malaysia?

        1. @seahorse
          Yes. Rosberg should have done what Vettel did.
          When he didn’t do that, he accepted being the looser. That isn’t a winning strategy, and IMO certainly not deserving of anything other then the position he chose.

          1. Yes. Rosberg should have done what Vettel did.

            @mads – just curious, but do you have a family, specifically any kids? Is that the lesson you would impart to your young son? That a great sportsman like Nico Rosberg, who competes not as a privateer but as a member of a great motor racing team, should’ve defied the legitimate, valid order of his team leader, who is also his employer, and just done whatever served his own personal interests – at the expense of the team?

            If that is what you would encourage your son to do, it would be a shame from the perspective of the concept of personal integrity and fealty and honor.

          2. @joepa – I would teach them in that environment to win at all costs as long as they don’t cheat absolutely. You are seeming to forget that F1 is a very unique job in which the drivers arguably hold more importance than their employers…

          3. There’s a difference in this situation as well. Rosberg was fighting for 3rd place, Vettel was fighting for a win. I think if the Mercs were in RBRs position I don’t think we would’ve seen such a willing Rosberg to be honest. At the very least he would’ve been fuming with the team at the end.

    4. Love how you’re calling Vettel a spoilt brat and it’s usually Webber throwing all the tantrums…

  7. “He didn’t deserve it,” Vettel continued.

    Like Vettel deserved last years championship when everyone let him pass in Brazil, including Webber.

    1. @valentino – “everyone” is a huge overstatement. Aside from that though, Vettel wasn’t exactly helped by an ambitious move from Senna.

      One isolated event hardly makes him an unworthy champion though.

      1. Not everyone, but enough cars to make a big difference when the points margin was so slim. His teammate allowing him to pass was just about justifiable. But the fact that Schumacher and, worst of all, the two Toro Rosso’s allowed him to pass was inexcusable. Granted Alonso did get a lot of help from Massa in the final few races of that season, but there’s a difference between your teammate helping out and drivers from different teams altogether.

        I know worse has happened in F1, but it left a very bad taste in my mouth.

        1. You really expect that a personal friend and 2 drivers who’d want nothing more than to be his teammate are supposed to give him a hard time in the last race with nothing to gain?

          1. They’re meant to be racing drivers for God’s sake! Yes I expect them to give him a hard time.

            Schumacher would have been livid had he been in Alonso’s position; he would have done well to remember what being a real racing driver felt like and deny Vettel such an easy pass. As for the Toro Rosso drivers, I think managing to hold of a triple-world champion in a superior car would have been pretty impressive, don’t you? The kind of stuff that might get you noticed?

          2. You really expect that a personal friend and 2 drivers who’d want nothing more than to be his teammate are supposed to give him a hard time in the last race with nothing to gain?

            @tmf42 Have those two STR drivers gained any such seat at IRBR as VET’s teammate? I seriously doubt that.

        2. But the fact that Schumacher and, worst of all, the two Toro Rosso’s allowed him to pass was inexcusable.

          It was the rational thing for all three of them to do, even if they were not friends or sister-team mates. Vettel was significantly faster than each of them, and would have overtaken them sooner or later anyway. Why would you waste time on a battle you will lose anyway?

          1. It was the rational thing for all three of them to do, even if they were not friends or sister-team mates. Vettel was significantly faster than each of them, and would have overtaken them sooner or later anyway. Why would you waste time on a battle you will lose anyway?

            @mike-dee If we were to decide who should gain places even without the drivers truly racing, then we should award the win to the driver who actually gets to pole on one lap pace. With due respect to the backmarkers, I infer you do mean to say that the backmarkers are not worthy to drive in the race as they are significantly slower than the front runners?

            Were the two STRs being lapped by Vettel for them to move away just like that?

        3. Can you give me some instances from 2012 of the Torro Rosso’s (or the Caterhams, or any other of the slower teams) giving Alonso trouble in getting past them?

          If you can’t then this particular talking point really needs to be dropped.

        4. @kibblesworth Vettel was inevitably going to pass them anyway because he was much faster: sure it’s not good to see them just getting out the way almost like lapped traffic, but it was a fight that was going to be over very quickly anyway. It didn’t really make much difference in the end.

      2. I am unable to understand the double standards of Vettel’s fans. When Vettel disobeyed blatantly in Malaysia, all his fans were raising their voices to say racing drivers should be racing.. But when he gets more points in an undeserved manner of a true racing driver, it is all fair for them even if more than three drivers do not actually race in a race as long as Vettel is gaining.

        1. @seahorse

          1. Racing drivers have the right to pick and choose their fights. It isn’t entertaining to see anyone make it easy for anyone else in my opinion. But you have to consider that sometimes, a midfielder is going to be passed by a faster car and driver, regardless of what he does. Particularly now, that you have such sensitive tyres and DRS.

          2. The main issue often found in discussions regarding Brazil 2012 is the way people like @valentino claim that everyone let Vettel through, which simply is not the case. It is basically another tailor-made excuse to unfairly diminish the 2012 WDC.

        2. @seahorse – pretty much as @david-a says: they should be able to do as they please, not be under team instruction. Which is why I don’t like the way the Toro Rosso’s jump out of the way. It’s really not that significant though, which is the point I’m trying to get across at least and also it’s got nothing to do with Vettel and so doesn’t make him any worse!

    2. It’s a bloody good point.

    3. SOme people let Alonso pass all season. So…

      1. only his teammate, please gives us examples if you have
        Torro Rosso drivers, Michael Shumacher and Mark Webber comes to my mind

        1. @tifoso1989 – Schumacher once, the Toro Rosso drivers perhaps twice each. They are cars that he would’ve breezed by anyway, so overall he probably gained a second the whole season from them. Hardly a championship-winning margin.

          1. To clarify, I don’t like the way that Toro Rosso’s drivers jump out of the way if one of the sister cars come up behind, but that is no fault of Vettel’s, so you can’t proclaim legitimately that makes him an “unworthy champion”.

        2. Several times during a season more than makes up for any example you may come up with.

          1. And the Schumacher case is ridiculous, he was losing a second a lap, why would he fight him hard, to crash himself?

          2. why would he fight him hard, to crash himself?

            But he did that with Raikonnen , and he risked a crash, he did that also with Kobayashi and pushed him out of the road and they almost crashed
            Double Standard

          3. No double standard. The speed difference was too big, he would have passed him anyway. You are making such a fuss of this unimportant pass which would have been easy for Vettel whatever Schumacher might have done. If Schumi would have blocked him, he would either have crashed or be passed within 2 corners.
            Anyway, what was I trying to say in the beginning was in response to Valentino saying Vettel was not a worthy champion because he was let to pass by several drivers. He gained less positions in that race and less points than Alonso during a whole season of sacrificing Massa, so that would make Vettel’s only opponent less worthy than him.

          4. The speed difference was too big

            U mean like what happened at Sepang last race – Speed differential between Alonso and Vettel?

            You are making such a fuss of this unimportant pass which would have been easy for Vettel whatever Schumacher might have done.

            It is obviously not an unimportant pass, is it? When he can do wheel to wheel getting so close to Kimi’s car if he really was doing racing, then he should obviously had raced Vettel whether he was in a faster car or not.

      2. His teammate.

        its very different from two Toro Rosso drivers and a 7 time world champ just pulling over

      3. Name one!!! Please. Cheap comment!

        I can name 3 out of the top of my head that let SV pass in Brasil… JEV, RICCIARDO and SCHUMACHER (biggest let down by the way).

      1. Anyone stop to consider the drivers that let Vettel through in Brazil prefered him to win the WDC rather than Alonso?

    4. Ok you guys, did you ever think what would happen if it was the other way around in Malaysia. If Vettel was in front and Webber was faster? And if Webber would have overtaken Vettel despite “multiple 12”?! I think Webber would get a far worse treatment than Vettel did! Firstly because Vettel is a whiny little b***h, and secondly Helmut Marko would raise hell because of what Webber would have done. Lets face it, Red Bull hate when Webber wins in front of Vettel, and the other way around is “what things should be like”.
      The issue here is not if someone was aloud to race or not, but if someone is an honest man and a driver who respects his teammate and Vettel is not. He disappointed everyone as an unfair driver. He just should have said “Guys I’m racing him” and in my eyes his decision to pass would be ok. But he acted as a backstabber.

      1. @valentinoIf Webber would get worse treatment than Vettel, it would be because of their respective positions in the team. It would not be because Vettel is “whiny” (something that he was earlier in the race, in fairness). It would be because of their respective positions in the team. Vettel is younger, better, and by far the better prospect for the team continuing its run of success. Webber finished a distant 3rd, and 6th in 2 of Vettel’s titles, and was near Vettel in the third mostly because of superior car reliability.

        In fairness to you, Vettel was fooling no-one with the claim he “misunderstood the team order. At least he’s not sticking to that story. But how is he an unfair driver? MW used more fuel, and more tyres just to be a couple of seconds ahead. Webber was definitely racing at his final pitstop when he came out. Vettel didn’t have to save as much fuel. If anyone was unfair, it was the RBR pitwall, for using team orders (in the 2nd race of the year) against someone who had more in reserve for the final stint.

    5. Considering Webber was helping Alonso in Brazil 2012 I think it evens itself out don’t you think? Imagine if Massa squeezed Alonso in the first corner and made that mess.. he’d be blasted out of Ferrari before he could say sorry..

  8. Good for him. Good for both. Good for the team. They handled it wrongly, now it’s time to make it dead clear. They always said there was equallity and no orders but plenty of times they have followed that direction.

    Now it’s time to let that by. If they get to race as hard as in Sepang with the thumbs up from the team, then who really doesn’t feel excited about it? in the end, it was a fantastic battle with same machinery, for a win between two very good drivers.

    And maybe the situation allowed it to happen, but the better guy won, and he got punished by the press and people, for doing what the other guy has always asked and has always done: race hard to the flag.

    As Vettel says, Webber isn’t your regular team player willing to yield to make life easier to the other guy on the other side of the garage. And if Red Bull can’t trust their drivers, if they cannot get inside their brains that they know where they are and who the other guy they are racing comes from, then they need to sort it out, because I really doubt Turkey 2010 would happen again.

    They better keep it like this. Webber can help the team by winning races in a much more effective way than Massa did (thanksfully) with Alonso. Winning and taking points of rival teams is a lot better than putting all the resorces into one driver and ask the other to follow suit… if there’s no will to win (because you’re not allowed to), then whatever you do won’t be as helpful.

    Hats off to Vettel for saying all this, even if it comes late in the day and specially after acting like he did in Malaysia, saying that Webber was the winner and all that c… He’s there to win. Just like Mark.

    1. Mark simply wont get the car to do the job from now on so this statement means nothing.

      1. Given that Webber agrees its easier not to have these team orders, that Mateschitz was ultimately the one to call this and that Mateschitz has huge respect for Webber – he is a fan of him, I doubt they would really do that. After all, they still need to win a lot to be champions again.

    2. Well said @fer-no-65

      Now it’s time to let that by. If they get to race as hard as in Sepang with the thumbs up from the team, then who really doesn’t feel excited about it? in the end, it was a fantastic battle with same machinery, for a win between two very good drivers.

    3. +1 Great comment @fer-no-65

    4. +1 COTD right there @fer-no65

    5. OmarR-Pepper (@)
      11th April 2013, 19:07

      Excellent fer… and that coming from a declared Webber fan. (no sarcasm). Red Bull needs to see what happens now. Even if they clash (and crash) it would be on the drivers hands. If they consider one of them is nuts and doesn’t deserve the drive next year, they can do it too. For those who just hate Vettel action, I guess the other big teams would LOVE if Red Bull sacks Seb. They would make room for him no matter what contracts they have with their drivers… Imagine Vettel free of contract!!! McLaren, Mercedes and even Ferrari would be up in an auction!!!

      1. Excellent fer… and that coming from a declared Webber fan. (no sarcasm)

        @omarr-pepper :P

  9. With Webber proberbly out of a job at the end of the season he now has only has one last chance to win the Championship but will Redbull let him, the simply answer is “No”, they will be looking for their place in history with Vettel winning four championship in a row, so all Webber can do now is “stop” Vettel from winning and secure his own place in history as the man who helped the other teams to win the championship, of course Redbull will do everything in its power to stop this by giving mark a poorly setup car or even a unreliable car, Im not a fan of Webber but i do feel for him and my opinion of Redbull and the behaviour of Adrian Newey right after the last race was truly appalling.

    1. Drop Valencia!
      11th April 2013, 14:30

      RBR has shown their best support to Webber since early 2009 so I disagree with this, also Newey was not happy with Vettel at the end of Malaysia so no idea what you are on about there….

      1. Webber had been wronged in the race but Newey stood with Vettel and not Webber open your eyes!

        1. thatscienceguy
          11th April 2013, 16:01

          He stood by Vettel…. giving him an earfull!

    2. @stillcamileon appart from the odd epsiode (front wing at Silverstone), Webber has had the same chances as Vettel.

      People forget that he was ahead Vettel after the summer break last year, with 2 wins to his name to Vettel’s sole win at Barhain. He had the chances, things didn’t go his way. Be it the development of the car going more to Vettel’s liking, or whatever, but he has the chances.

      If he can drive like at Sepang the whole year, he’ll be a contender. And Red Bull would let him… Heck, they give him the opportunity to win races even after all that happened in Brazil which is supposed to not be around Red Bull’s happy thoughts about Webber !

      1. As i said i’m no fan of Webber but if you believe that Redbull cant influence who wins a race from the pit lane then your very nieve, even 2 psi on tyre pressure could ruin a race for a driver, yes i agree Mark’s not taken his chances but now all the work is done to build a car around Vettel ( perhaps rightly so), All the fans want is fairness and its quite clear Redbull are unable to offer this to any of Vettels team mate.

        1. @stillcamileon why would Webber sign in season after season if he felt that way?.

          I’m not saying Red Bull cannot influence car performance, but why would they do that? Webber got pole in Korea… they were not pushing him back, were they?

      2. He had the chances, things didn’t go his way.

        That’s just sugar coating the truth that Webber is just not good enough to win the WDC. He’s good enough to be a helping driver in securing the WCC and the fact he’s made such a massive mess out of this whole thing (by suffering from the Barichello syndrome and running his mouth to many times) should’ve given Red Bull a bit more food for thought last year. TBH I don’t think they should’ve renewed his contract after Brazil 2012.

    3. All Webber can do now is “stop” Vettel from winning and secure his own place in history as the man who helped the other teams to win the championship

      What sort of idiot wants to be in the history books for that? The only decent thing Mark Webber can do, if he’s so unhappy, is win the championship for himself.

  10. Vettel is not winning any points in my book with this attitude. He doesn’t want to obey team orders? Fine, he should have said so before the race when the multi21 was discussed, not disobey them during the race.

    As for “Mark didn’t deserve it”, is he still talking about the first corner in Brazil? Because I can’t recall any other instances when Mark should have let Vettel by. And anyway, Vettel didn’t deserve it either. The team granted Vettel the undercut on Webber, but both drivers were also told the mult21 instruction. If they were really racing, Webber should have been allowed to pit first, as is customary, and then Vettel would have had a chance to reel him in and pass – which he could have done all race but didn’t.

    1. In a normal team mark should have been allowed to defend his position but he is not allowed to until now as he has nothing to lose as his job’s already gone, Come on mark dont go out with a wimper go out with a bang.

    2. Wow, so many inaccuracies in one post.

      1) “team orders in Malaysia was not agreed pre-race but was an ad hoc decision after the final stop.” – Byron Young
      2) Mark didn’t deserve… for Vettel to follow teamorders in his favor. Vettel explains in the very same interview why he felt like that: “I never had support from his side.”
      3) It is not customary. Plenty of times Webber has pitted first when Vettel was in front.
      4) It is certainly not customary in the situation where Vettel was under threat of Hamilton because he obeyed teamorders earlier on not to overtake Webber.
      5) When Webber was given the undercut in the second and third stop, this gave him half a second advantage. The undercut was not worth 5 seconds.

      1. Wow, such an extensive enumeration from an ardent Vettel supporter.

        1) The term ‘Multi21’ was not first used and explained over team radio during the Malaysian GP. When this term was discussed, and this is most likely during the Malaysian GP weekend (and before you say “You don’t know this”, indeed I don’t but I don’t find it likely that they would dig up some code words they came up with three years ago), Vettel should have manned up and said he wasn’t going to hold station behind Mark.
        2) “Mark didn’t deserve… for Vettel to follow teamorders in his favor” Yes, that’s what I meant, so how is this an inaccuracy?
        3) It is customary when team mates are racing one another. I don’t know what examples you have in mind, but when one guy is 20 seconds behind it doesn’t matter, of course. I do believe in Red Bull this is customary when they are racing. For instance in the 2010 season, when they were often 1-2 and racing each other, the leader got to do the (one and only) pit stop first.
        4) Which team orders were those? I only heard Vettel’s request to have Mark move aside for him.
        5) I said nothing about the value of the undercut in terms of time, so how I can be inaccurate here? The point is that if Webber had been allowed to pit first, then Vettel would not have been side-by-side with him at the start of their final stint, but Webber would have been seconds up the road. Could Vettel have beaten him still in that scenario? Possibly, but like I mentioned earlier, he could also have passed him at any earlier point during the race but didn’t.

        1. @mnmracer There was definitely an agreement before the race. Mark said so himself on the podium.

          I find it strange that suddenly Red Bull comes out with that weird fuel story and now they claim it was a decision taken during the race? very convenient don’t you think?

          Webber was right Vettel is being protected as usual. On race day itself the team seemed disappointed but after three weeks of rest they know Webber will no return for them in 2014 so now they want to cover for Vettel because they don’t want to lose him. He is looking more like Schumacher in a frightening way but Ferrari has a clear no1 driver and Red Bull has always claimed that not to be the case for them so thats were the comparison differs.

          Helmut Marko: And all shall be well my son.

          1. 1) Mark said no such thing on the podium: http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2013/3/14414.html

            2) How does ‘the fuel story’ and making a decision during the race contradict eachother?

            3) Vettel got the same kind of protection Webber got after openly defying th team. What kind of message do you think they would have sent if they had punished Vettel for something they did not punish Webber for? “I know you’re 3xWDC, but your team mate is allowed to pull more **** then you.”

          2. @mnmracer
            1) It seems you missed this sentence: I want to race as well, but in the end the team made a decision, which we always say before the race is probably how it’s going to be – we look after the tyres, get the car to the end and in the end Seb made his own decisions today and will have protection and that’s the way it goes.
            2) My bad: I meant those stories are just to good to be true.
            3)Webber protected? The team wasn’t happy at all at Silverstone 2011 and let’s not forget the ranting form Marko. Or did you forget all of that.

          3. 1) Which means that they talk through scenario’s and what to do in such a case. Or do you think they thought that with Vettel on pole Webber starting 4th, “probably how it’s going to be” is Webber being ahead after the final pit stops?
            2) Ah, because something is ‘too good to be true’, it’s wrong. Even though it makes perfect sense that when a driver is low on fuel, you make a decision at that moment and don’t stick to whatever strategy would have him run out of fuel.
            3) Are you saying that the team was happy with Vettel after Malaysia?

          4. @mnmracer I quit because you’re a blockhead and I’m a blockhead :-)

          5. @force-maikel
            Well, I would at least like an answer to point 3. Taking into consideration how they have treated Webber (no actual punishment), what do you expect the team to do to Vettel and if they apply a double standard by punishing him, what message would that send.

          6. I don’t expect them to punish vettel, this isn’t school. These are grown up men, if they take a certain decision they should stick with it and not first apologize and then retract it when the team says almost nothing about the incident.

            And now I would like to apologize to you because I haven’t had the best of nights and have been grumpy all day long. There is no need for me to take it out on a fellow F1 fanatic.

          7. Webber was helped by team orders during the whole race once he caught Webber after the first pit stops. “3 seconds gap”, they kept telling him. They also told him, “be patient, it’s only half race yet”.
            After all this, it’s very unfair towards Vettel to issue the multi 21, seeing as he’s been told to stay behind all race, this effectively meant taking away his only chance to fix that screwed up first pit stop timing. After the last pit stop, Vettel had the faster tyres, the warner tyres, the more fuel, and the DRS distance, so he was clearly in a better position to win the race. And by now we now that there was no pre-race agreement of an “automatic ceasefire” for the last stint. Vettel must have been furious and rightfully so.
            As time goes by and we get the details on what really happened, I’m starting to lose respect for Webber, his PR whining with all the false hints at pre-race agreements and turned down engines (low fuel levels anyone?)
            Which doesn’t mean I liked Vettel’s fake apologies after the race.

    3. Vettel is not winning any points in my book with this attitude.

      Good thing the only points he needs to win are the FIA F1 World Championship points.

  11. Vettel the monster Red Bull created

      1. Motor_mad (@)
        11th April 2013, 14:37

        LOL monster…

    1. Spot on.

    2. Hardly a monster. But there is certainly a win at all costs streak in him that people either find compelling or repelling, sometimes at the same time. People (me included) love Senna but some of the things he did on track were questionable in terms of legality and sportsmanship. And lets not even get started on Schumacher.

      I am fine with Vettel racing. But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end (despite his team mate being in full compliance with them, putting him at a significant disadvantage), its just not sportsmanlike and it doesn’t show the real skill and adherence to fair play that I associate with the best.

      1. +1 Yes this sums it up for me too

      2. @kibblesworth

        But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end…its just not sportsmanlike

        I don’t like it at all either and I would prefer that the drivers just shut up and got on with it, but many of them are like that, not just Vettel. They are all selfish and out only for themselves (they have to if they want to have any hope of being world champions).

        despite his team mate being in full compliance with them, putting him at a significant disadvantage

        If by full compliance you mean having slowed down, that is entirely untrue. He only had a lower engine setting because he had used more fuel in taking and staying ahead of Vettel in the earlier phases. It is just treating Webber as stupid if you genuinely think he wasn’t doing everything in his power to stay ahead of Vettel – there is no way he would have knowingly put himself at a disadvantage, especially considering he’s been the first to ignore team orders in the past. So I simply don’t accept that argument.

        1. @vettel1 You are correct in that selfishness is to be expected and I fully support drivers to go for it if and when they can. I just don’t like it when drivers that we know are skilled and talented resort to underhand tactics such as Vettel did in Malaysia. Vettel clearly isn’t the only driver who does this sort of thing, and he won’t be the last, but obviously Malaysia is fresh on our minds.

          And by full compliance I simply mean that Webber was expecting team orders to kick in after the final pitstop (which had been discussed prior to the race) and had presumably raced up until then with that in mind. If I were him, I would have used up more fuel trying to stay ahead of Vettel early on if I wasn’t expecting to race my teammate after the final pitstop.

          1. Webber was expecting team orders to kick in after the final pitstop (which had been discussed prior to the race)

            Red Bull said the multi21 was an ad-hoc decision, not pre-discussed.

          2. The two drivers were not racing up until the final pit stop. Red Bull were instructing Vettel to stay behind Webber from lap 24 onwards. So the claim that Webber was ahead at the final pit stops on merit is itself without merit.

            It is in that sense that Webber would not have deserved the win – it would have been a win given to him purely by team orders.

      3. hear, hear!!
        COTD for me!

      4. But when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race

        He did that after the team told him to maintain a 3 seconds gap behind Webber. His request for a “team order” was only a reaction to a “team order” against him”.

      5. when he demands team orders at the beginning of the race, only to flagrantly disobey them towards the end

        That’s a highly distorted and incomplete description of events.

        First Vettel was ordered to stay behind Webber – all the way back at lap 24. By lap 29 he was being instructed to “be patient”. Webber was backing him up into Hamlton – who eventually jumped him at a pit stop – which prompted Vettel to complain that Webber was too slow. He WAS too slow.

        After twenty laps of obeying team orders and sacrificing his own race by staying behind his teammate Vettel finally took matters into his own hands. The result was the best racing of the entire GP – against a teammate who had NOT “turned down his engine”.

        1. @jonsan , I seriously don’t know how anyone can argue with your comment or say anything bad about Vettel after what you wrote.
          Good on ya :)

          1. @kibblesworth – that was because he had used more fuel than Vettel in the earlier stages, so what was proclaimed that he had turned his engine down simply to abide by a team order is not true. So in the sense that Webber was unfairly handicapped, @jonsan is entirely correct in saying that notion was rubbish: Webber got the benefit initially only to be at a disadvantage later – nothing unfair about that.

          2. what he said

          3. It has been confirmed by Red Bull that Webber’s cut his engine more than Vettel, for a start

            When exactly was each drivers engine “turned down”? Webber clocked by far his fastest lap of the race after his engine was supposedly “turned down”. Perhaps Webber should run the entirety of the Chinese GP with his engine “turned down” – since this seems to result in his going faster than when it is “turned up”.

        2. @jonsan @mnm101

          First Vettel was ordered to stay behind Webber – all the way back at lap 24. By lap 29 he was being instructed to “be patient”. Webber was backing him up into Hamlton – who eventually jumped him at a pit stop – which prompted Vettel to complain that Webber was too slow. He WAS too slow.

          After twenty laps of obeying team orders and sacrificing his own race by staying behind his teammate Vettel finally took matters into his own hands. The result was the best racing of the entire GP – against a teammate who had NOT “turned down his engine”.

          I saw some people commenting here that this story is getting old and everybody has (have?) their (his/her?) opinions on the subject formed by now, so there is no point arguing anymore…

          But your comment was the definitive one to a 180° turn on my views: I was completely disgusted by what VET did in Malaysia, but now I can put myself in his position and, although I certainly would not do what VET did (and that’s why I am a government employee, not a race driver), I now applaud him for his actions (not so much for his words).

        3. For others that may be undecided: I did not change my opinion just by hearing the “vocal minority”. Although no fan can say honestly he/she is in favor of team orders, we know it’s impossible or impractical to regulate/ban team orders… I believe that, putting Malaysia aside to see the larger picture, the best way to eliminate the threat of TO is for all drivers commit to this stance: “we all won’t accept TO, we are race drivers, we will race”. “Ok, team boss, you can fire me, but your next driver would do the same in my position”… Yes, I know that the teams have the money, the teams give the means for the drivers to shine… all I’m saying is that we should apply the categorical imperative here and ask ourselves what we want to see: just an engineering competition, or an engineering competition plus pure racing.

  12. Now if Mercedes could follow suit, that would be great! Team orders are completely misplaced this early in the season under any circumstances in my view, so I’m thankful Red Bull have taken that decision and are allowing their drivers to fight.

    1. so I’m thankful Red Bull have taken that decision and are allowing their drivers to fight.

      Mark Webber was asked his opinion about this decision and he said that with no team order his job will be probably easier and i don’t know what he means by that
      By the end of the season we will see if this decision will have effects on both WCC & WDC

    2. didnt merc allow nico to overtake lewis twice???nico however was unable to stay ahead of lewis both times.

      1. @f1supreme – not really, he was a bit foolish to try the overtake in the first DRS zone but he could’ve definetly got him afterwards and was denied the opportunity, which I thought was unjust.

        @tifoso1989 quite simply I think he probably means he will no longer have to justify his actions because there will be no orders to ignore!

    3. @Vettel1

      Do they have any other choice??? I dont think vettel or webber are gonna obey any team orders in the future (anyway they didnt in the past either)…. so the easiest thing to say is that they are not gonna have any team orders knowing fully well that they will look stupid again if they tried it…

      Either ways it’s good …

      1. @puneethvb – exactly; I’m not at all bothered about it – all for the better actually!

  13. Seb should be far more aggressive over this. 2 of his 3 WDC’s were won by just a few points, he should simply say he knows the importance of every point and won’t ever settle for less points than he could possibly score. The number of people who watch F1 and are happy to watch cars follow each other home instead of racing is staggering – if I lost respect for any driver in Malaysia it was Nico. The race runs til the chequered flag, not til your last pitstop. What a total bore the last stint would have been if we were just watching cars drive around in a procession.

    1. It appears the Vettel hate dictates logic in this one my friend.. it’s quite funny to see actually..

  14. When will F1 listen and stop letting the team share the points from both drivers, its the simple way forward to allow racing until the race finishes, Redbull 1 with Vettel takes is points towards the champoinship,RedBull 2 with Webber take their points towards the champoinship. This way 12 team owners with 24 teams after all each driver has his own mechanics and crew anyway.

    1. uhhh, that’s what the drivers championship does ;-)

  15. Motor_mad (@)
    11th April 2013, 14:37

    Can we just agree at some point in their RBR career’s they have both ignored team orders, one failed in doing it and the other succeeded.

    1. But that would not coincide with praising Mark and bashing Sebastian

    2. @motor_mad that will logic, and as you can see, sometimes logic and motor sport don´t come hand in hand.

      @mnm101 Yes, some people won´t be happy until Vettel is giving Death Penalty over this, even when it is stupid and he is just doint what everybody price Webber to be honest.

      Finaly after hearing Webber being a martir for the last three years it was time to heard Vettel side of the story. So Kudos to him!!!!!

  16. Bringing back team orders was the biggest mistake. It creates bad racing, tension among teammates and awkward situations like these.

    In a sport where teammates are actively competing against each other they should have every right to, I dunno, maybe COMPETE against one another and not just the other contenders. Team orders in a sport like this will not work. It’s like having an olympic sprinter or long distance runner in an athletics team conceive or hold position for the benefit of his/her fellow countryman to take gold because their manager told them so.

    It’s just incomprehensible!

    I’d rather see team-orders make a leave from F1 rather than Mark or Sebastian heading in that direction. I will not pick sides in this argument. I’d rather seem them RACE instead of bicker about ‘Who was told what’ after they’ve finished a race.

  17. Quite a twist – Webber being the guy dodging the confrontation and Vettel seeking it. – just adds to the show, so can’t wait for Saturday / Sunday.

  18. Sry but who is going to want to be Vettel’s Team mate once mark webber leaves cause i can say with certainty no one from the top teams wants to be his team mate cause he is disrespectful.

    1. anyone that wants to be in a Newey car?

    2. I can see that job interview:

      Red Bull: so {insert name}, you would like to drive for us?
      Driver X: yes, but I don’t want to drive next to Vettel, because he disrespected Mark.
      Red Bull: fair enough, so what do you have to show that we should fire Vettel over you?

      Unless Driver X is another German with 7 world titles, I see that job interview being really short.

    3. @timmya Even Ferrari got Rubens Barrichello to replace Eddie Irvine.

    4. @timmya
      Yes how terrible. Not being gifted a win as promised, when his team mate was faster. Mark Webber really has a tough time here. Oh my…

    5. @timmya – that won’t be a problem if they are faster!

  19. This will make a very interesting rest of the season, as neither driver will help the other. Gloves are off.

  20. By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it’s not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it’s possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it’s impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I’m doing it right – Senna ’90

    Get over it, get rid of team orders, LET THEM RACE

  21. I have no problem with this apart from the fact that he should have come clean like this right after the race. The lack of RB team orders from now on is as it should be. I had to laugh at all the anger directed at Vettel for going in the face of orders when previously team orders were denounced as the worst thing ever. I guess team orders are OK as long as it benefits your favoured driver. So much hypocrisy….

    I still maintain that this controversy is being fuelled by Vettel haters (I’m not a fan either) and the media wanting to stir up drama. I was against team orders in 2010 and I’m still against them now, even if it means my favoured driver loses.

  22. It as I feared; Vettel is being protected by Red Bull. They now know that Webber is not going to give a hoot about driving for them in 2014. So they turn to the driver they most certainly don’t want to lose and cover for his treachery. There most definitely was a pre-race agreement between them and the team. Webber said so himself on the podium, why on earth would he have lied about it then. Red Bulls tweet about there being no such agreement just before the Chinese GP is all but to convenient to be true. Them now turning away form team orders is something all F1 teams should do for the sake of the credibility. But I just can’t get over the fact vettel screwed over his teammate like that. He now knows he can get away with anything so he retracts his apology and throws in some more disrespectful quotes.
    I have said it numerous times Vettel is a great driver who has achieved so much in so little time but he is a lousy champion.

    1. There most definitely was a pre-race agreement between them and the team. Webber said so himself on the podium, why on earth would he have lied about it then.

      Yeah, why on Earth would Webber lie about that? That’s a real head-scratcher right there. What could be the reason ….

  23. The Blade Runner (@)
    11th April 2013, 15:53

    Kimi to Red Bull next season, head-to-head with Vettel. If the finger wagging German comes out on top then my increasingly intense dislike of him might just morph into begrudging respect. Until then…

    1. Even then, I think the urge to find a reason for his “winning” will be strong in you I suspect (be it the team favouring him or Kimi not liking the car).. the Vettel hate is a strong force my friend lol..

  24. Oh how I wil laugh, chortle, chuckle and guffaw if the Red Bull boys race each other from China onwards to the end of the season, use up all their engines and gearboxes, take grid penalties and then lose titles as a result.
    This is where the continued use of racing components (engines, gearboxes) required by the rules meets naked ambition head on.

    1. @timothykatz
      Since when has racing your team mate worn engines more then racing.. anyone else?
      The teams and drivers know the limits of the engine and gearbox and they will make sure to make the equipment last regardless of who they are racing. A racing driver don’t just forget fuel, tyres, engine or gearbox when they race each other. They are actually able to think about what they do and why.

      1. . . . when both RBR’s are way out in front and not having to race any other team. If they were not going to be racing *each other*, they could afford to turn the performance down and save the strain on the engines. But as they will be racing *each other*, the team will not have that luxury.

    2. You are pretty deluded if you think the 2 drivers competing against each other will have any impact on reliability.

      Red Bull has shown and is constantly saying that for them the constructors championship is VERY important. Which means they need to finish well in every race regardless of the drivers championship. Which means you wont be seeing RBs getting DNFs just because they are not using team orders anymore. That is just silly.

      The team needs the drivers to finish well every race, and obviously so do the drivers themselves otherwise they can’t win the championship. So they will act accordingly regardless of team orders.

      1. See my reply to Mads (above).
        “The team needs the drivers to finish well every race . . .” but if the drivers within the team are fighting each other, the team will not have the luxury of conserving the cars when they are in a ‘Multi21’ or ‘Multi12’ situation.

  25. The title appears to draw one conclusion from a series of contradictory statements by the team and by Vettel. It’s not clear to me that Vettel has any intention of defying team orders again. And its not clear that Horner has any intention of stopping giving them, whatever the big boss man said.

    If RBR were to completely abandom “team orders,” it would be to the benefit of competitors, who could be sure that RBR would never be able to manage a marginal situation with tires or fuel if the cars are running close together. You will have too real men standing on the side of the track out of fuel while, say two Mercedes or Ferraris coast home to a 1/2. I will rate that race a 9, for the extra laffs.

  26. Vettel after the race: it’s not a victory I’m very proud of because it should have been Mark’s

    Vettel 3 weeks later: He didn’t deserve it … Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time

    Gotta love the spine he has.

    1. He clearly didn’t know all the facts. He could’ve found out that Webber had to tune the engine down as he used more fuel during the race, and that makes him unworthy of staying up front. The fact is that after the race Mark went all out and gained sympathy in the direct aftermath; but after looking at the facts – and today – he was pretty “happy” with the way the situation was handled. While Seb did the opposite; tried to contain the incident after the race and after three weeks moved clear with a determined decision: Mark did not deserve it, the team screwed up.

      Had Mark not made such a big fuss and came back the next day with his “raw emotions” bundled with race facts, I am sure he would have said many different things. And the “no ********” Aussie said today no team orders would make things easier… pointing to the fact that the TEAM (aka Horner) created this mess and while he relied on the team for a victory, Seb defied it for a victory of his own.

      He also said he reflected on past incidents and some were “negative some were positive” so he recognizes in past incidents he was to blame also… So all in all neither Mark or Seb were to blame for the Malaysian drama, it was team orders at this stage that were ridiculous; we want to see a fight, a clean fight where Seb and Mark respect each other. Why Seb is the villain in all this is still what boggles me.

    2. Vettel after the race: it’s not a victory I’m very proud of because it should have been Mark’s

      Vettel 3 weeks later: He didn’t deserve it … Mark is not the one who deserved it at the time

      Gotta love the spine he has.

      he dosent need a spine, Marko has his back (pun intended)

      1. Why wouldn’t he.. the 3 championships speak for themselves..

  27. Well I for one feel happy about SV making these type of comments! It´s excellent news for Ferrari. It just goes to show what a “team player” this guy is! This certainly earned him points with the guys at Maranello! XD

    1. @karter22 Yeah, because the team that has won 10 races in the past four years is soooo worthy of having Sebastian.

      What’s with all this entitlement Ferrari and Ferrari fans have where the best drivers shall race for them by default?

    2. @karter22 – quite frankly I don’t think he gives a toss about what Ferrari think of him: he’s made it quite clear he’s happy at Red Bull and why wouldn’t he be since they’ve been the better team of the two these past four years?

      1. @guilherme @vettel1 Right? Oh, what a terrible tragedy it would be if Vettel had no choice but to stay at RBR and continue to win championships. ;__;

        1. @aka_robyn – exactly, he’d much rather drive a worse car and lose out on championships just to please a few Internet bloggers! After all, isn’t that all that matters: being a god in a bad car? ;)

    3. @guilherme , @vettel1 . @aka_robyn

      Well, if you all feel that way, why then did Domenically and Luca hint not to long ago that there were approches from the SV camp lobbying for him to go to Maranello?? hahahaha. Say what you will but the boy was yearning to go to Ferrari.
      It doesn´t matter if Ferrari have only won 10 races in the last 4 years, everybody has and will always dream of driving for Ferrari wether you guys like it or not.
      IMHO, I hope that SV never gets to drive a red car but that will most likely never happen. As soon as Fernando retires, you´ll see SV jumping ship to Ferrari as well as Newey!
      And all of you are right! He should stay at RBR (fad team of the moment) since he´s just wining so much! Why would he ever want to leave? You guys are right!

      Just remember one thing, F1 is all about cycles as in every sport. Sooner rather than later, RBR´s cycle will end just as FC Barcelona´s cycle should come to an end. Just give it time.

      1. Say what you will but the boy was yearning to go to Ferrari.

        Yes, I think he’s had a desire, at least on some level, to drive for Ferrari ever since he was a kid and Michael Schumacher was his idol. People grow up, things change, and I think most people would agree that a move like that anytime soon wouldn’t make a lot of sense for him. Yes, of course that could change in the future. At the moment, though, I think (a) he’s probably not losing much sleep over what Ferrari management thinks of him and (b) recent events have probably made less of an impression on Ferrari management than you imagine.

      2. @karter22 – I think they were just media rumours really and an attempt to destabilise Red Bull.

        Of course he may want to drive with them in the future if they become more competitive, but I don’t think he’s giving it much thought currently!

        1. @vettel1

          I think they were just media rumours really and an attempt to destabilise Red Bull.

          Doubt it, @keithcollantine covered it somewhere here in the site. There was a story on it here. Too bad I do not know how to search for articles here.
          They were not rumors though, and it makes sense since it was while Felipe´s future was still uncertain. Once Felipe was confirmed, a few months later the article came out, it was near the end of last season if I recall correctly. It was also around the time before Mark signed for RBR.
          Definitely not rumors! That is why Luca came out with the whole 2 roosters in the hen house thing!

          1. @karter22 – I thought they were genuine initially also, but then Vettel came out and said he’s not interested and is staying with Red Bull until at least the end of 2014, so I kind of changed my perspective after that.

          2. @vettel1 I think he’s genuinely happy where he is right now (well, for the most part…), but I do have a feeling that sometime after Alonso retires, he’ll leave RBR for Ferrari.

          3. @vettel1

            I thought they were genuine initially also, but then Vettel came out and said he’s not interested

            Well Max, I guess that´s what one does when he/she gets turned down.
            It´s like if you´re courting a fine looking redhead, and she shoots you down. Of course you´re gonna say that to save face in front of your mates right? ;) At least I´ve done it once in a while when a lady has done that to me. I say ***k her in front of my mates but deep inside I would hurt, I just don´t let it show!

            @aka_robyn

            I do have a feeling that sometime after Alonso retires, he’ll leave RBR for Ferrari.

            Exactly! It´s inevitable! It will happen and I´m at a crossroad with this, because I truly hate Vettel but love Ferrari so it´s really hard to admit this.
            I just wonder if all the RBR/SV fans will change their tune about Ferrari when it happens though XD

          4. @karter22 that’s assuming there was something in the works in the first place though, which I’m not so sure of!

            I just wonder if all the RBR/SV fans will change their tune about Ferrari when it happens though

            Well actually I don’t really hate Ferrari that much: I don’t like them, but it’s hard to ignore against the fact they are the greatest team in F1 history. It’s just Alonso I have a strong detest for, and since Ferrari is linked to him I don’t like Ferrari currently!

            I do feel though that Vettel is inevitably not going to see his career out at Red Bull, so Ferrari is a very likely proposition.

          5. @karter22 Well, as a militant Vettel fan, I can tell you I’ll suddenly be wearing a lot more red when that happens. ;-)

          6. @aka_robyn
            LOL!

            @vettel1

            I don’t really hate Ferrari that much: I don’t like them, but it’s hard to ignore against the fact they are the greatest team in F1 history

            That is what makes them the team that everyone loves to hate! ;)

            @aka_robyn
            Lol, might as wel start buying some red just so get used to the idea!

  28. Vettel said he did not expect it would change how far his team mate went in supporting him because “I never had support from his side.”

    Silverstone 2011 Mark held position in second, Silverstone 2010 handed over his front wing. If thats not support from his side i’m not sure what is.

    1. Silverstone 2011 Mark held position in second

      Comical stuff.

    2. Silverstone 2010 handed over his front wing

      Even more comical. As if it was Webber’s choice to support his team-mate there.

    3. At Silverstone 2010, after testing them, Mark was happier with the old wing, Seb was happier with the new wing, that’s why they gave it to Seb.

    4. I actually cracked up at this.. thanks for the laugh!

  29. Here’s the deal – Dietrich Mateschitz, the man who owns the company, is against team orders. Horner and perhaps Newey, favor them. So we’ve seen Red Bull “officially” claim many times in the past that they don’t do team orders while in fact they at least attempt to have them. This is called “hypocrisy” by some people but its really not – its the team owner and the team manager being at cross-purposes.

    Incidentally Mateschitz is also mates with Webber, which explains why Webber has been able to defy team orders with impunity for several years.

    It is not Vettel or Webber undermining Horner and making him look weak – the man doing that is Mateschitz.

  30. Horner told the BBC the decision was taken by Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz: “I had discussions with Dietrich and we agreed that Red Bull is not a fan of team orders.”

    That’s not actually a new development though. Mateschitz has always been against team orders – the reason why RB were going through that silly “multi21” coded nonsense was presumably so they could do one thing while telling the boss they were doing another. I’m sure that the “discussion” involved Mateschitz giving an order and Horner saying “Yes sir!”.

  31. To be fair I have more respect for this version of Sebastian than the other. I’d rather he man up. And that is what the public want to see. If this gives us a decent rivalry to follow in the races to come than so be it. It is no less than what we want to witness.

    I think more teams should leave it at this. The whole point of getting two good drivers is to have both of them competing to win and not come 2nd. And if this does not spur Mark on to win and compete harder then I should say he needs to reconsider his future.

    1. TBH I’d have rather seen Kimi, Hulk or Hamilton in Webbers place this year. All Webber has done is made a massive mess within the team and created a crappy environment to work in. He hasn’t been able to challenge Vettel for the title since 2010 (where he himself fluffed it) and I can’t see him doing it this year either. All that is going to happen is him flouting his “unfair treatment” and then playing second fiddle due to his inability to be consistent and grind out results.

  32. Team orders are wrong, at least at this stage of the WDC, Vettel is faster than Webber. Webber never backed Vettel. The End!

    1. I’ve got to love this drama as this has been going on for weeks. Besides that Vettel driving the faster car, as from the resources that have explained in this forum pointed out that a lot of things crucially happened, and its not just the car. The fuel, the tyres, and the engine modes are one of them, which may resulted to the probability that they both followed orders but due to Vettel’s strategy, gave him the better advantage to finish the race.

      Of course I agree with you that Webber never backed him. In the end Vettel was faster and better equipped to finish first. The End!.

      LoL

  33. The tittle should actually read like this:

    Red Bull gives up on team orders as to Vettel as he admits he would defy them again

    1. @olivier
      As if Webber obeyed team orders…

      1. He may not but he’s expected to (at least by Vettel)

        1. And Webber didn’t expect the same thing when he showed him the finger?

  34. “on the one hand I am the kind of guy who respects team decisions…”

    Made me chuckle.

  35. No one ever ‘deserves’ to win, this is a sport, not a charity.

    They ought to have to fight for it but also respect their peers and employers. Anyone who believes Webber, or Vettel for that matter ‘deserved’ that win clearly doesn’t get competition.

    1. Agree, you have to earned it

  36. Have you guys seen Webber’s new haircut? He looks like a giant GI Joe doll LOL Maybe he’s going to shave his head totally and take a vow of celibacy until he can once again defeat the evil Seb! :-)

  37. Vettel was brilliant on his comments. People whine about team orders all the time and when onde driver ignores them he is wrong? Haha ludicrous. Vettel is right, and that’s great, now we will see if Mark can do something about it.

    1. People whine about team orders all the time and when one driver ignores them he is wrong?

      1. I whine about team orders – I hate them.
      2. But unfortunately we do have them, and so I believe in acting professionally and respecting your team boss if he gives an order.

      Does that explain ‘the whining’ for you?

      It’s the team bosses that are doing the wrong here.

  38. I admired Vettel’s skill as a driver and the achievment of winning three titles is quite something. As an individual I always thought he was funny and had time for the media and fans. I was not his greatest fan.
    I’m not sure that Mark Webber has the same skill but he’s a good guy, calls it the way he sees it and has demonstrated plenty of times that he is a team player. He was right to be ****** off in Malaysia.
    The bottom line is everyone is a member of the team and gets paid by the team. He was given an order and it seemed pretty clear to me and we only got a part of it – I don’t believe Vettel misunderstood.
    After the statements that Vettel has made today about doing the same thing again and not respecting team orders – he would not drive for me again, not in China or anywhere else!

    1. Is anyone forgetting that the TEAM could be wrong! What is the team was wrong, or is this a military outfit in which you act then object. Absolutely ridiculous reasoning!!! The team WAS wrong and the soldier defied the order, rightfully so.

    2. I’m not sure that Mark Webber has the same skill but he’s a good guy

      A good guy would back his teammate in the final race of a Championship deciding season. Webber is a two faced hypocrite IMO..

  39. hmm I wonder if Red bull will win the constructors champship now that both their drivers aren’t going to listen since they are too much of bunch of wimps to tell both their drivers whose boss. Cause if they wreck each other a couple of times thats points gone or mark webber doesn’t feel like racing his hardest a few times that some more points. Yet another example what if once mark realizes some where in the season he can’t win and starts to just try to sabotage seb. All Thoughts that redbull it seems redbull never thought about when they didn’t punish seb, like lets say docking him 1mil in pay or something stupid to show him that they pay him. Cause I will almost bet anything webber isn’t listening to anything especially if it helps seb.

    1. Nothing is going to change, because Mark already wasn’t listening to help Seb.

    2. what if once mark realizes some where in the season he can’t win and starts to just try to sabotage seb

      Like last season, you mean?

      I will almost bet anything webber isn’t listening to anything especially if it helps seb.

      Like last season, you mean?

      If five laps from the end of the Chinese GP the order is 1) Webber 2) Alonso 3) Vettel, is Webber really going to move over and let Alonso past? Really? I don’t believe that for an instant, but if he did that he’d be replaced by the next race. And short of doing stuff like that it is hard to see how Webber can be any less cooperative a teammate than he was last year.

  40. http://www.formula1.com/news/interviews/2013/4/14434.html

    I don’t know how people can misread this interview as him being an arrogant brat. My goodness! It’s incredible!

    1. Nothing surprises me anymore…

    2. “…get him out of the way” might have something to do with it. It’s similar to the “this is ridiculous” comments by Alonso.

      Vettel is a superb driver, and he’s certainly no arrogant brat… however, I think the above quote highlights why people have taken a dislike to him.

      1. No, it explains that people are trying to find REASONS to dislike him. I’m sure whatever driver they support has told this to their team 100 times over.. but it’s Vettel so “Open Fire” right?

  41. “I chose to overtake, because I was faster and he did not deserve the win.”

    – Ayrton Senna.

    If that quote had come out of that mouth, we would have praised him to high heavens, and would be commenting on how great an attitude it still is today. A lot of the attitude on here seems to be stemming from Disliike of Vettel – generally because people have somehow decided he isn’t as good as Hamilton/Alonso/Kubica/Whoever.

    1. @bendana
      ‘IF’ being the operative word here

      1. Doesn’t change the fact he’s right, you’re just affirming his point actually..

        1. @roberto he’s right is he? confirmation of a hypothetical phrase that was never actually said by someone and then assuming and pigeon holing the reaction of the collective Formula 1 community beyond reasonable doubt? God much?

      2. Not quite sure what you mean by that… Could I have a little more explanation of the point you’re trying to make, @me262?

        1. @bendana I threw up a little bit in my mouth when I read your post – happens when I read presumptuous correlations between Senna and Vettel. Point is Senna never said “I chose to overtake, because I was faster and he did not deserve the win.” Do you know why?? …because he never had to overtake an inferior teammate for a win

          A lot of the attitude on here seems to be stemming from Disliike of Vettel – generally because people have somehow decided he isn’t as good as Hamilton/Alonso/Kubica/Whoever

          I dont think its because he’s not as good or better than anyone, i think its because of his demeanor. He is one of the worst sore losers in the world of professional sports today. Granted, some people admire that and twist it to ‘a will to win’ akin to real champions but realistically, Vettel and most other drivers could only dream of attaining the persona and charisma of Ayrton Senna. One would think the only way is up for Vettel, will be good to see him put his silly finger away and mature a little

          1. Well, your overdramatic nonsense aside there, I think you’re actually missing – either accidentally or deliberately – the point of what I said. I know Senna never made that quote. The whole point is that if he had, people would have treated it like it was the statement of a saint and a brilliant thing to say.

            Its nothing to do with Vettel attaining the persona of Senna. The point is a comparison of the way the two drivers are perceived. Had Senna said something like that – bearing in mind that Ayrton was hardly a saint when it came to actions on and around the track – it would have been treated as wonderful and brilliant. Vettel says it and he gets treated like a war criminal.

            By the way, if comments on F1f make you throw up, I suggest seeking medical attention, as you appear to be far to delicate for the rigours of the internet.

  42. As much as I love the kimi/lotus duo, I really hope kimi joins RBR next year to show Vettel how talented he really is.

    1. @swindle94: You mean the Kimi, who needs a GPS to find his way around the track, hehe. Ok, I love Kimi also, but lets face the facts: if You don’t believe a driver is talented after 3 WDC’s, then nothing will ever convince You, because Your dislike of the driver is clouding Your judgement.

      1. +1

        Once Vettel beats Kimi it will be the old story of how the team is favouring him and how Kimi needs time to adjust or doesn’t like the car lol..

  43. “I never had support from his side.”

    Nonsense. There have been occasions when Webber disobeyed team orders, but to suggest he never obeyed them is false.

    1. That’s the sort of claim which really should be accompanied by “for example …”

      1. @jonsan 2012 Brazil is the only one that comes immediately to mind. He may not have made it easy, but he eventually let Vettel by.

  44. Can we just forget this now?
    It was a minor incident but this is being blown out of proportion by the fans of certain driver(s)

  45. No team orders at Red Bull? Advantage Ferrari /Alonso.

    I hope this comes back to haunt Vettel come brazil.

    1. Like Brazil 2012? Love how people forget that Webber never had his back to begin with..

    2. Exactly, this little brat will get what he asked for.

      If Vettel needs to win in Brazil for the WDC i hope Mark is in a position to race him and take out Vettel.

      Return the compliment.

      1. Tin foil hats anyone?

  46. what an ignorant d0uch3 Vettel sounds like, I think he should fight on an equal plain field, and then win as we all expect, he is just going full schumacher.

  47. For those that think that Vettel did and is doing the right things, for me this is going to end in a mess for all concerned. Let’s wait and see.

    1. I agree, this all smells of bad blood from here on in, and it’s probably going to end in tears for everyone at Red Bull.

    2. this whole kerfuffle has given Vettel extra ‘wings’ within Red Bull and since it didn’t go south for him at alll, now he is just free to think and do what he wants without any repercussions. I liken it to when parents lose control of a child…they grow up to be monsters

  48. ” If its Multi12, its all fine and Team orders are good, if its Multi21 then i am not Ok with it because i am the one who deserves it” Doubles standards from Vettel.. As it is more likely to be Multi12 in most of the races, team orders play in Vettel’s hands. That is the only reason RedBull considered team orders( To prefer Vettel).

    If Vettel has problems with team orders, why did he agree to Multi12/Multi21 thing?

    1. If RBR wanted to use team orders to favor Vettel, then they would have asked Webber to move over. Seen from a Team perspective that could have been natural, to make sure he maximised his points tally. Of the 3 titles he won 2 with a margin smaller than 7 points.

  49. Sebastian Vettel aka Eric Cartman – “whateva !! I do what i want &%^&$”

  50. Infiniti Red Bull Vettel Racing announces Christian Horner is stepping down from his role as Team Principal, as the position is redundant. This will enable Christian to bring greater focus to his continuing role of Chief ******** Officer. To compliment this, Infiniti Red Bull Vettel Racing will be bringing new upgrades to China, including new flexi-lip and blame deflectors.

  51. As much as I like Vettel now, and support his move in Malaysia, this might blow his chances to race for Ferrari?

    1. Maybe if he joined alongside Alonso, but I doubt Ferrari would allow that. If anything Ferrari like him more after this. They’ve been desperately trying to find Schumi No 2 and he might just be it..

  52. News Headline

    “RACING WORLD IN SHOCK AS DRIVER TRIES TO WIN A RACE”

    It really is time to move on from this. Vettel went up in my estimation after Malaysia. Why? Well, because he raced until the end. I hate all this namby pamby “not fair, you didn’t press the go slow button” rubbish. I want to see 24 tough racers going at it hammer and tongs until the bitter end, I don’t want 2 thirds of a race. I want the ragged edged, car on the brink, raging battle right to the flag. Its the only truly fair way, anything else is just nonesense. Holding Vettel back is punishing him for being better and artificially keeping Webber ahead is impossible to swallow for this grumpy old git!! LOL!

  53. vettel has lost a little respect that he had from me when he said “he didn’t deserved it”… webber was only following team orders…

  54. Simple

    One car per team and every driver for themselves and we wouldn’t have this rubbish and politics

    For those that reckon Schuie and two STR’s should have moved over for vettel in brazil 2012 because he would pass them anyway

    Well they may as well not race and have just vettel on the track by himself since he will win anyway

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