Massa ordered to hand win to Alonso

2010 German Grand PrixPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

Felipe Massa, Ferrari, Hockenheimring, 2010

Ferrari controversially instructed their drivers to change places while leading the German Grand Prix.

Felipe Massa allowed Fernando Alonso by into the lead on lap 48 after receiving a coded message from race engineer Rob Smedley.

Before the change of places Smedley was heard to say:

Alonso is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?
Rob Smedley

Not long after the message was broadcst Massa slowed at the exit of the hairpin and Alonso went pass. Afterwards Smedley told Massa:

OK mate, good lad. Stay with him now. Sorry.
Rob Smedley

The BBC’s Ted Kravitz reported a “flurry of discussion” in the 12 laps leading up to the change of position.

Ferrari clearly orchestrated the change of position and could find themselves in trouble with the sports’ governing body. Article 39.1 of the Sporting Regulations says:

Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

The rule was brought in when Ferrari did the same during the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix – when current FIA president Jean Todt was in charge of the team.

Two years ago Ferrari instructed Kimi R??ikk??nen to let Massa by for second place in China.

But significantly, that order came when R??ikk??nen was out of the running for the championship. Massa is not.

It’s a clear sign of the status of the two drivers at Ferrari, as it now seems Fernando Alonso is the favoured driver within the team.

Ordering Massa to give up the win today is especially poignant as it is one year to the day since he was badly injured during qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix.

Update: Ferrari have been summoned to see the German Grand Prix stewards.

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409 comments on “Massa ordered to hand win to Alonso”

  1. Never before have I so wanted a Ferrari to win, except this time, it’s the one that’s been robbed.

    1. yes it was needed for the f1 world and for mclaren to cut short vettel but Team orders are always going to step into f1 and every single race this year has been controlled by the teams when the cars pit when they jump to track on qualli if ferrari gets penalised would be a hypocritical move by the fia.it was obvious but it wasnt said word by word ferrari said that like mclaren does or red bull but a bit less disguised maybe cause it felt worse for ferrari massa and rob smedley if they wanted to go stealth they would done like other teams on the past few years by lapping others
      answer NO penalty

      1. sorry double posting i thought i had runed out of time

      2. all those are team strategies – they are still racing on the track!
        As Vettel was clearly faster should we have had Massa told to let him past?
        No once on the track the drivers should race – it is up to them to overtake. If they can’t they don’t win.
        Simple – this is a race and that is what we pay to see.
        The FIA will jeopardise the sport if they don’t penalise.
        Fans pay to see a race not a sham.

    2. Smedley – “I don’t expect any penalties whatsoever because Alonso was just faster and Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once,”

      Hahahahah

      1. Little mistake to get on the throttle for about half of the straight – LOL, honestly this is more than good enough evidence along with the radio messages before and after the ”overtake”.

      2. I do not know what race were you watching my friend!
        But it was very clear what Ferrari’s message was. He is faster than you! That means get out of the way!

    3. Ferrari should have learnt from Renault and just made Alonso pit before ordering Massa to crash his car into a wall on the next lap bringing out the safety car, which would have left Alonso in the lead to win the race.

      At least that way we would have found out about the cheating next season, rather than during the current race. School boy error Ferrari. :D

      1. I am utterly disgusted about Massa being forced to let Alonzo go past him on the straight. It was so obvious to even me who has only been following the sport a few years, that Massa let Alonzo pass him as commanded to do so because i could see his throttle was turned so so low, as if saying ok, pass me now. SO evil (I do not like him now!!! and love Massa now who i feel so so sorry for)Alonzo passed him. The drivers always have as full throttle as possible- especially on the straight. If Massa hadnt let Alonzo pass, i am told the ferrari garage could have reduced his throttle remotely, slowing him thus forcing him to let Alonzo pass. No wander Massa was so deflated and went slower, he would ahve been delighted with second if first had been earned by Alonzo overtaking correctly. This is BAD for the sport, totally disgusting. AGAINST THE RULES. until today i have followed the sport and even considered recommending it to many and following it in person, which would cost many thousands but now this corruption and cheating has put me off. It’ll be a different sport we follow around the world!

    4. Yes, it would have been a fantastic story one year on from his crash.

      Not only that, it would surely have given him the confidence boost he needs to lift his drivers.

      Its such a pity.

      1. I agree Ed. It really would have been something special. A heartfelt victory the whole F1 community could have rallied around. Now it’s just a shame, a let down, another selfish scandal. Shame on Domenicalli for letting it happen.

      2. And to add insult to injury, he dedicated the second place to his uncle who had died earlier in week, but said he was sorry it wasn’t a win he was dedicating. But lets face it, it should have been a win…
        I was told this by a friend who translated as he made the anouncement in Brazilian.

        1. He made the announcement in Brazilian?

          Did your friend himself translated it into AMERICAN?

    5. If the FIA do not act over this and award a penalty to Ferrari and disqualify Alonso then this ia a clear indication of them living up to the name of Ferrari Internationa Aid.

      1. I quite agree. people like me are new to enjoying the sport and even considering spending thousands to follow it in person, rather than just on telly. If the FIA do not act it will put me and many others off. i certainly wont spend thousands following it and disuade all my work colleagues- thousands of them, tol do like wise.

    6. How surprising to see 2 people with very spanish names: Juan and Miguel supporting a spanish driver. If McLaren had done the same thing Button and Hamilton would have been disqualifed from the race I guarantee it.

  2. I think they might lose this race!
    Could also be a no team points penalty, but i expect something to happend.

    1. Team orders are always going to step into f1 and every single race this year has been controlled by the teams when the cars pit when they jump to track on qualli if ferrari gets penalised would be a hypocritical move by the fia.it was obvious but it wasnt said word by word like mclaren does or red bull but a bit less disguised cause it felt worse for ferrari massa and rob smedley
      answer NO penalty

      1. There is surely a difference between the team favouring a driver on strategy, running one driver on a quicker pit stop strategy than what we have seen today.

        Today, the team switched the drivers on the track by having Massa slow down and allow Alonso passed.

        The former is the nature of team sport, the latter is anti-competitive and farcical.

        1. Tim, I think I am quite smart to say it is just the same thing – whether you pull your driver to longer pit stop – or you say your driver to back off. The difference is only in whether it is more diplomatic or not. In fact, if you let your driver to back off – based on who make the decision – it is more acceptable than if the team made decision on pit stop strategy.

      2. Electrolite
        25th July 2010, 15:23

        I don’t know why people are holding Mclaren and Red Bull to tell drivers to ‘save fuel’ on the same level as what happen today. Saving fuel is genuinely ALWAYS an issue for every driver at some point in a race, as the commentators explained clearly today there is a stage in the race where saving fuel becomes something to manage.

        And as for being British, that is extreme generalisation and we are not like that. What a dumb comment.

        1. i agree, and i’m not brit

        2. Even more so, because the majority of the readers and commentators are international-not British! Including me.

          1. And from what I’m seeing now, the repercussions on the Brazilian blogs are ENORMOUS. Interestingly, some of the blame for anti-sportmanship being attached to Massa too, for giving way. This needs explaining to some of those supporting Ferrari on this: they’re going to be hated now by a massive contingent who were loyal to them because of Massa and despite the past history with Barrichello.

        3. Well mate… rules have changed. They race with a full tank of fuel and one would think that teams running on the cutting edge would have allowed for such exigencies in the design of the car itself. Todat, it is mostly used to mean, “no more racing!” :P Yes, it is just a form of team order.

          About British… well, i’ve worked for them for 3 years. It was a wonderful time attending to them at various positions in Customer Service when i was doing it. However, there are rotten apples everywhere and you can’t contend that the media isn’t biased for one, and that there aren’t any biased fans who are British… Mind you, they are everywhere, but it becomes more significant when you consider than most of the F1 media is still British(which is biased mostly) and yes, most of the people commenting here have access to news mostly from that section of Media only. Here’s another fact for you, most people are sheep and would believe whatever they’re told/ sold…

          1. Before someone flames me… this is not to say that i’m any better… i’m just more aware of my weaknessess as a human being :)

          2. I am sure Alonso is a Catholic,probably Massa is too.So this is what a Catholic wrote many years ago :-

            “And when the one great scorer comes to write against your name,He writes not what you won or lost but how you played the game”

          3. Out of curiosity – that quote comes from an American sportswriter describing American football; how do you work Massa’s and Alonso’s religious denominations into it?

          4. Nice comment Dianna.

    2. Very unlikely. Can you imagine the current FIA president, Jean Todt, punishing Ferrari for doing the exactly same thing HE did 8 years ago?

      1. Well it wasn’t illegal then, nor is he in Ferrari anymore. I believe he is impartial now.

        1. In 2007 Massa also let Raikkonen win the Brazilian GP but that was a different circumstance, only one was contending the title, that’s acceptable, today was just dirty, it has to be punished in some form.

          Well I hated this, I have to ask you guys something: In cycling, only one rider is supposed to win, while the others are there just to help him, even though they can also win. How long until, in the culture of F1, will this become acceptable. Senna had in his Lotus contract that his teammate be “inferior”, for example…

          1. A very sad day for Massa. I have lost respect for ferrari on this one. They so want to prove they made the right move with Alonso, they will marginalize everyting they are to prove it.
            Massa should start looking for a new team. Maybe for 2012.

          2. You can’t say one kind of team orders is alright and another kind of team orders isn’t so bad. Where will the cut off point be? That would just lead to endless debate.

          3. NomadIndian
            25th July 2010, 22:27

            Is that true about Senna? Wow!

          4. Alonso did not say anything about Brazil 2007.. that possibility and its final result was very clear.
            Yesterday, he could not afford to make another mistake.
            The team decision is as obvious as 2007’s.
            Massa is slower than his teammate.Button is slower than his. That counts, point.

  3. I think Ferrari should get a punishment as opposed to the drivers…unless they wanna give Fernando second and Felipe 1st

    1. They have to punish Alonso in some way too, otherwise they still benefit from the crime.

      1. Alonso seemed to be asking why Massa slowed down post race.

      2. Which is kind of sad, because it probably wasn’t Alonso’s decision,

        That being said, Button or Rubens would have refused to take the place.

        1. “That being said, Button or Rubens would have refused to take the place.” Do you really beleave in that? Barrichello after what happened in Austria, perhaps, but anyone else? Sorry, I don’t think so.

  4. Ned Flanders
    25th July 2010, 14:28

    Absolute disgrace. This is exactly why I hate Ferrari

    1. I hate Ferrari too, But I hate them because they step on the little guy, or they try to bring three cars into a two car sport, but this, this is a disgrace, this is the most disgusting thing I’ve seen in F1 ever, bar Piquet’s crash.

      1. I agree completely Mike. It appears they have found Schumacher’s true heir, a driver who will resort to any manner of cheating, or allow those around him to do so if it guarantee’s him a win. And while doing so, they belittle one of the nicest, most honorable drivers on the grid. There used to be sportsmanship in this sport.

    2. So do you hate McLaren too, Ned, after Kovalainen ceded position to Hamilton in consecutive races in 2008?

      Thought not. The amount of hypocrisy in this case is unbelievable.

      1. @ Red Andy

        Thanks for bringing that one up mate… :)

        Seems like they would have their drivers repeat a “Red Bull!” from Turkey if they were running the team. Besides, Alonso is the only one who has a realistic chance at the title… So i can understand this one… I hate to sound negative, but i guess, it is the fact that all F1 Media is by and large British and well, McLaren is British and hence, they could do no wrong. Even with DC moving over more than once, and as did Kovi. Even with the Ferrari design document found in the possession of one of their lead engineers. Even with information on Ferrari of ’07 available on their internal servers. Even with Lewis and team being caught with their pants down as they lied through their teeth to FIA, who was merely playing rat and mouse. Sure, McLaren could do no wrong for these sort.

        Yes, it would have been just to let Filipe finish ahead of Alonso… but Ferrari have to think of the championship and Felipe has to think of Ferrari as a team member. If he didn’t believe in it, he wouldn’t have had done so. I’m sure Ferrari couldn’t have had remotely shut his car down, without facing a multi million dollar fine and some race bans. Felipe did what he did, as he knew that this is what the team needed. He could have been petty, like the world’s media by and large, but he chose not to. He is better than most of us. Here’s me saluting you Massa (if you ever got to reading this) and your dedication to cause mate.

        1. I agree with your opinion, there will always be people criticizing Ferrari but when other teams made wrong decisions, they kept mute… Anyway, I think Ferrari deserves a penalty, and Alonso too because he would made the pass from Massa not to show so obvious…

        2. STOP ON!
          Jus because McL is British, watever they do is OK! Ferrari is wrong here, not because they did this, but because they did not even try to tone it down!
          Alonso was faster anyway, he would ve caught up with massa within a lap or 2, but tht would be risking a crash and/or vetter gaining pace on both if them.

          They did what they had to do, i hated them at fisrt, but when vettel came so close to massa, i knew they had a reason.

          1. should ve been SPOT ON.
            sorry about tht.

          2. i’m sorry this is rubbish. I am british and like mclaren, but if they made jenson move over like this for lewis with both still mathamatically in the running for the championship i would be just as angry and outraged. I was when coulthard moved over for hakkinen in australia 11 or 12 years ago when they made an agreement whoever made it into the first corner first would win. I was horrified. It should never be acceptable, it should never be forced, it could be discussed pre race and if the driver wanted to help the team out he could do it off his own back, but never forced to…. its a disgrace and ferrari and alonso should get a penalty. Poor massa, i hoped barrichello was the last to suffer this disgusting tactic.

          3. But if it was any other car there they would have just had to race it, that is what its about isnt it, standing on the podium, and knowing on the day, that you are the one on there because of your actions and that everyone tried to win but you did.
            In this instance that could not be further from the truth. If they had raced and had a coming together, like the RB’s, then that wuld haave just been bad luck. Whilst I am sure Webber would rather not have had the crash with Vettel, I also equally think he would not under any circumstances wanted the win handed to him like was the case yeasterday.

        3. I’m not British, and I don’t like Mclaren either.

          Team orders are illegal.

          Maybe next year they can change that, but, unless you are suggesting that it was not an order, then, I don’t see how there can be anything but a penalty of some sport.

          Massa was clearly unhappy about it, I suggest you watch the race/interviews again if you missed that.

          Suggesting that the FIA is on Mclarens side, is, both stupid, and quite funny, because normally people say they are on Ferraris side (the whole Todt being the ex boss thing eh?).

          Ferrari have to think of the championship. but breaking rules or even being underhanded, is not the way to do it.

        4. Jesus what utter tripe.

          Ferrari get away with everything because the FIA is afraid of losing the Ferrari brand from F1.

          I guarantee if Hamilton and Button had done the same thing they’d have dropped placings in the race leaderboard.

          Hamilton has has some frankly absurd borderline penalties this year.

          I doubt Massa was happy letting Alonso through. Don’t believe the PR rubbish.

      2. I think when McLaren did it in Britain and Germany it was because Hamilton was faster than Kovi and when he caught up they just didn’t want him to put up a fight. In this case Alonso did catch Massa initially but once Massa had gotten up to speed with the new tyres he seemed to be OK, it wasn’t like Alonso was glued to his gearbox.

        If I’m wrong about the difference between the Ham/Kovi overtakes and this one then yes it is hypocritical to cry foul over this and not bat an eyelid over that. For me though this one just seems worse because while it did look like team orders in those instances, this time it was so obvious and it just seemed cruel taking the win away from Massa on the anniversary of his accident, which he hasn’t won a race since.

      3. Hypocrisy is as much a part of this blog as team orders are a part of F1. Fanboys run amok.

        Massa and Alonso are simply following orders and should not be punished (no Nuremberg defense please). 1-2 positions should be reversed and significant monetary penalty for Ferrari, hows 20 million sound.

      4. I agree with Red Andy. What the hell do you think McLaren’s “conserve fuel” is decoded to interpret?!? What did you think Christian Horner was trying to do in Turkey by controlling Webber’s engine revs?!? Team orders have always existed, some just mask it better than others.

        Team orders between the RB drivers and Mclaren drivers will not take place unless one of them has a considerable lead on the other. Just like Alonso has on Massa. I really dont see Massa coming from 80 points down on the leaders and fighting for the WDC, although it might still be mathematically possible. Ferrari could realistically, only have Alonso battle for the WDC this year.

        Instead of risking a Vettel/Webber crash they decided to just ask Massa to move over. I guess they learn’t from RBs mistakes.

        I agree it sucks for the fans. And I definitely didn’t want Alonso to win this way, but to penalise Alonso or Ferrari would just be unfair.

  5. The timing sheets tell the real story. Alonso had been consistently faster than Massa lap after lap (at one point taking .5 in single laps) and it was only a matter of time before he passed him. Up to then Massa was not exactly sleep-walking as they both were reeling off the fastest times lap after lap. If there cheated then the stewards are going to investigate and we will see.

    1. Are you serious?

      1. So the thought that the “flurry of discussion”in the laps leading up to the lead change could have included a few “Felipe conserve fuel” messages? In the early stages of the race Massa showed he had the pace to keep Alonso at bay, and he was manageing fine until the “flurry of discussion” began.

        I’m not a huge fan of Massa’s but I am gutted for the guy. This win, given the significance of the day, would have given him his spark back and would have spurred him on for the remainder of the season. He relies more than most F1 drivers on building momentum and really does build on big results, but I fear Ferrari may have extinguished his spark for good with that move.

        1. I agree with you. Today could have been a turning point for Felipe. He would have built up confidence and would be assured that the team took him seriously. Now he is gone, not only for this season but for good. Ferrari has chosen to pander to the spanish brat and humiliate Felipe in the process. And since he is not getting a drive outside Ferrari in a team that can make him win any time soon, he might as well collect the money till the end of his contract and stop a year or two from now.

      2. If Ferrari broke any rules then the FIA should investigate and hand down a punishment as per my last sentence. So far I haven’t heard anything about any investigation so I it is what it is.

    2. That’s not true. Massa had the gap up over three seconds at one point.

      1. but he was able to close the gap again after that, felt like he was giving him some air

        1. or he was furiously debating on the radio that the team should tell Massa to let him past …

      2. But not because Alonso couldnt keep up with him…

      3. True but Alonso caught up in both cases. Overall Alonso was always faster. Maybe we might have a more fruitful discussion if all lap times are available.

        In any way, I am sure that Ferrari will get a penalty for this. They should have, at least, be a bit more creative.

        1. Actually if you look at it objectevly, its Massa who dint do his job well… he must have let him somewhere else, not by not accalerating. And every other team would probably do tha same… so i would suggest droping the team orders ban rule… They are gonna happen if you like it or not.

      4. I’m sure you will post a chart soon showing the lap times.

      5. Alonso is a faster and better driver than massa and its made F1 more exciting overall today, Massa is lucky to be driving for Ferrari and this kind of thing must be written in his contract.

        Hamilton was favoured in 2008, Schumi his whole career, Vettel over webber, the best drivers are favoured

        1. That is not right. Webber is an amazing driver and it is WRONG to favour one driver over another. you make it sound like you agree with it. The rules are there for a reason, it is a race not a con, once they are on the track. or did they put money on Alonzo winning and are racking in millions now, as the gangs and mob did once in boxing etc. It is against the rules to ask a driver to move aside. Massa, i feel so so sad for him – was ordered to move aside. He overtook Alonzo legitimately earlier on and was faster. Of coures statistics will say he is slower now, wouldnt you give up and think whats the point? after letting Alonzo passed. Alonzo seems a big mouthed bully, always arguing. Massa is a quiet nice guy who gets on with the job.
          We know Red Bull and our British guys would NEVER let each other pass,hence the times Webber and Vettel overtook each other.
          Massa was clearly bullied into it. In my job bullying is a discipliniary offence.

        2. I totally disagree. Alonzo was not faster and that doesn’t mean he should win. Button got stuck behind a slower driver – Schumacker -, but did he let him pass, of course not it was up to Button to pass him.

          What you said is not right. Webber is an amazing driver. Besides, it is WRONG to favour one driver over another. You make it sound like you agree with it. The rules are there for a reason, it is a race not a con. or did they bet money on Alonzo winning and have millions now, as the gangs and mob did once in boxing etc.

          It is against the rules to ask a driver to move aside. I feel so sorry for Massa. He overtook Alonzo legitimately earlier on and was faster. Of course statistics will say he is slower now, wouldnt you give up and think whats the point?
          We know Red Bull and our British guys would NEVER let each other pass, hence the times Webber and Vettel overtook each other.
          Massa was clearly bullied into it. In my job bullying is a discipliniary offence

          1. Ferrari favor one driver over the other – based on current championship rank and race for title. McLaren and Redbull favor one driver over the other based on their rank in marketing and dollars made. I still loved ferrari for being honest in pursuing the title.

      6. NomadIndian
        25th July 2010, 19:31

        Hi Keith,
        Just wanted to know from you – how is today’s Ferrari action different from Kovi moving over for Lewis in 2008 (coz he was slower)? The ones Red Andy is referring to, above? (although I ecall it was just one race but can’t remember which one it was)

    3. If it was only a matter of time, then why did they order Massa to yield his position? The answer is simple: it wasn’t a matter of time. Without this order Felipe would win.

      Of course the decision of the team was logical, but it was against the rules. The team should be penalized, but not the drivers, as they were just doing their job.

    4. if Alonso had the ability to pass Massa on the track, then Ferrari wouldn’t have taken this risky decision

      1. That is also my feeling – Alonso talking about risky moves in press conference confirmed to me that he was aware, and active in making this happen. Real Champion to take the least risky, most sure method, but not the best racer then, I guess.

        Similar to Red Bull Turkey situation, except that here Vettel wasn’t even yet very close, nor clearly making up time before the swap. So why not just tell the two Ferrari drivers to remember the RBR rule of “give each other space and race fair” and trust Alonso to be able to do it.

        These days TV money is important – so respect that the cost is that you can’t switch drivers like they did today as it robs spectators of a spectacular fight for the win.

        1. Agree 100%, all they had to say was “Fernando is closing fast, remember give each other room pleas” & all is said!

          1. Although Massa can mathematically still contend for the WDC, it just does not seem realistic. Even if Felipe finishes on the podium on every race, he might still not be within striking distance in Abu Dhabi.

            Ferrari have kissed the Constructors title goodbye this year, however, Alonso still has a slim chance of winning the WDC.

            There is just too much at risk by letting them fight it out on track. One Vettel/Webber crash ends the hopes of the WDC as well.

            As a fan, I hate seeing team orders, but every team does it every year. I can understand if the drivers are evenly matched in the points standing but Felipe is over 30 points behind Alonso, and Ferrari made the right decision. It would be a shame to see Ferrari or Alonso penalised for this race, as the same has been done McLaren and Renault over the past few years.

    5. You cant be serious. Alonso would not have passed him in a thousand of laps. So much so that Ferrari had ask Felipe to let him through. There is a big difference between get to the guy in front and overtaking him – just as an ilustration, Massa kept Vettel behind even though Vettel was running much faster than him in the last 10 laps.

      1. Massa also let Alonso pass him that way to show that it was a team order. In Austria 2002 Barrichello did the same thing, giving Schumi the lead within 100m of the finishing line. He could have done elsewhere, but he wanted people to see the farce.

        1. Interesting comparison though. Barrichello has NEVER recovered from the consequences of that decision, particularly in Brazil where his reputation sank for being seen to give way. And Felipe? He’s always been held in some esteem – rightly I think – despite perhaps not being so ‘naturally talented’ as some, whatever that comes down to. Massa had almost as much chance as Alonso to win this year. Particularly by Alonso’s own reckoning – which was to win everything from here on in and not rely on the other teams making mistakes. But apparently relying on Massa giving him wins. This guy (Alonso) is corrosive for Formula 1 as a sport.

    6. SO – Why not leave it be and let them race and Alonso would have passed anyway according to this theory! This is what stinks in F1 – all about the team not the driver -this is why we do not see intensive driving and overtaking–yet all we do is moan about it!

  6. No, Ferrari is thinking in the championship. Massa had some problems with the tyres (you can notice it clearly) and they could lose the victory if Vettel keep getting closer so Alonso must take the victory. Also Alonso has more points than Massa so they must help him.

    A few months ago we had this kind of issue with Vettel – Webber and because they fight for the position Red Bull lost a lot of points, a team must think in the championship, as simple as that.

    1. Letting your drivers fight clearly (not like Seb & Mark fought in Turkey) is the fair thing to do. They were gonna get a 1-2 anyway. The rule is clear: team orders are prohibited. Good for the team or not, it was an obvious team order.

  7. Alex Cooper
    25th July 2010, 14:31

    Regardless of the right and wrongs, I’m with Martin Brundle: if you were Ferrari management what would you have done?

    By the end of the season people will look at where the highest-ranking Ferrari finished in the Drivers’ Championship. They won’t remember that Massa was told to pull over for Alonso at the German GP.

    1. Alex Cooper
      25th July 2010, 14:38

      You also have to bear in mind that, from a regulatory point of view, the ‘No Team Orders’ rule is very grey. F1’s been about team orders since the very beginning and they are necessary for later in the season when only one driver in your team is in with a shout for the Drivers’ title.

      Ferrari took the mick with it in Austria 2002 (very early in the season; Schumacher had a massive lead already) so now you get this situation over a rule that cannot be properly policed and where the circumstances change throughout the course of a season.

      1. Sometimes I think that they make the wording of the rules vague so that they can apply it (or not) according to what is most convenient at the time (specialy from a commercial point of view — ya know, this is Bernies’ show). I would not be surprised for a minute if Alonso gets to keep the victory, because 5 fighing for the championship means better money than 4 – even though this one was an in-your-face sort of rule breaking. Ferrari might get a token penalty, just for appearances.

    2. Exactly.

      Also FIA allows team orders in WRC and no one complains about them. I don`t know why this rules is not allowed in F1. Ferrari has a huge disadvantage in the championship, is not like Schumacher times that they won easily.

      1. The WRC situation is a complete disgrace to the sport and is one of the reasons I no longer follow the series closely.

    3. I completly desagree. Anyone have forgetten Austria 2002?

      1. Totally different – then, Schumacher had the championship in the bag regardless; that’s what made it so tasteless (+ it was yet one more example of Schumacher having first dibs). Here, they’re trying to push all the chips towards the guy with the best chances. Doesn’t make it right, but every team would act like this in the same situation.

    4. I am with this too. I’m not going to lie that I wanted Alonso to win badly, but its not the best way to win of course. Alonso was faster, he’s been 0.5s quicker all weekend.

      Brundle is right, what would you do? If Alonso tried a genuine move round Massa, which I believe would have eventually come, Ferrari ran the risk of 3 outcomes:

      a) Massa and Alonso take each other out ala. Webber and Vettel in Turkey
      b) Loose time and let Vettel reel them in
      c) Clean pass by Alonso who goes on to win

      As you can see, the outcomes suggests that racing each other would have been a lot more risky. Ferrari were battling for max points which they so badly needed, and if Massa couldn’t up the pace, from a management standpoint, it seemed to be the right thing to do, reduced risk and guaranteed result, a win at least.

      I think the FIA should relook at the rules. This was not as blatant as Schumi at the A1-Ring in 02, Felipe was holding Fernando up.

      The FIA cant punish Ferrari because they have no proof, unless Massa or Rob Smedley decide to spill the beans.

      So how is this different from Jenson being asked to “hold position” after trying a move on Lewis in Turkey (I think)?

      1. Felipe should be allowed to hold anybody up – this is racing, you don’t have to roll over to the guy behind you. I don’t know what you find so risky about outcome (c), but that would have been the only one in which Alonso would deserve a victory today. After the Piquet Jr. thing came out, people asked Alonso whether he thought that his win under the light of those revelations was still a worthy one. His emphatically response was: yes! This is a guy that if he cannot win by his own abilities, has no problems in getting it by less than honest moves – I hope he a Ferrari go down into the mud from now on.

  8. If the FIA treat that as anything other than team orders then they themselves are bringing the sport in to disrepute.
    The actions leading up to, and after the move clearly demonstrate team orders. If Alonso can’t get past the car in front then surely he should try harder or accept the place. This is after all a race and NOT a time trial.

    All Ferrari have done is rob us of a race, they should consider themselves a disgrace to the sport, as should any team who gives the same order.

    as a fan of motorsport I am extremely dissapointed.

    1. But how could Jean Todt of all people criticise the team? He was the worst offender of the lot. I’m not happy, but I’ll be amazed if there’s any fallout… Perhaps if Christian Horner had complained, but he didn’t.

      One thing’s for sure, the podium ceremony looked more like a wake.

      1. When Todt did it, it wasn’t against the rules. Now it is.

        1. Todt did it so badly they had to bring the new rule in – he’s not going to want to be dragged into this row.

          1. But he is not anymore the one to do the investigating, he put himself at a distance from that, did he not? Good job, I think he will agree now :)

          2. From 2003 it was illegal and in bad taste, before, it was just in bad taste.

            As long as it judged that is was team orders, a reprimand must apply.

    2. I have to nominaly disagree Duane. What they avoided was a possible Vettel-Webber type confrontation and potential collision where no Ferrari would win.

      I disagree with the team order ban when championships are on the line. Rubens having to gift a win to Schumi, when it meant everything to Rubens WAS a disgrace, because there was nothing gained but another meaningless win for Schumi.

      But a team should have the right to dictate finishing orders in their own best interests.

      1. and this win didn’t mean the world to Massa? His troublesome season, his major injury. He recovers from all that and dominantly takes the lead.

        Now they order him to let Alonso past, that must be such a slap in the face

  9. Well at least Fernando’s finally ended up in his kind of team… it must feel like he’s back at Renault.

  10. Teams should be able to give team orders. To me, it’s all about how they do it. This was not a situation where I feel that it was justified. Massa was ahead on merit and it was a straight run to the finish. If Fernando wanted to win, he should’ve passed his team mate by himself. In terms of the championship, there’s still so many races left to go. Two bad results for Alonso and a few big hauls for Felipe and the situation in the championship is completely reversed between them. With 3-4-5 races to go, I’d agree with team orders. Right now? No.

    Now, should they be penalised for it? Well, I don’t know. Mainly because I think that this rule is stupid to start with. Because of this rule, whenever you have a legitimate and understandable reason to enforce team orders (China 2008), you should be able to do so without having to pretend that it was an actual pass just because of the rules. On the other hand, it IS against the rules. Everyone knows, regardless of what was said, that it was a team order. You might not be able to prove it to the letter of the law, but everyone knows that it was. In that case, if they can prove it, penalise them – just for my own Schadenfreude. I don’t think it will happen, though.

    I’m just gutted because, once again, all the attention is on the politics and not the racing. And I’m fed up with that.

    1. Is the rule correct…..probably not. Its very grey and there will always be team orders (pit order etc) that will affect the result.

      However, the rule is very clear, and the breach is very very clear. As a result, the FIA must take action for this very clear breach………

    2. I agree Mag Geoff, the sad thing is that this was a fantastic race until then, right or wrong it has changed it from Ferrari’s glorious come back, to a rather bitter end of a great race…

      The rule shouldn’t exist, but it does exist to stop just this. So I think for now, it is still important.

  11. Rubbish Dave
    25th July 2010, 14:35

    Good to see Ferrari still know how to cheat.

  12. It’s a shame what Ferrari did against championship regulations! I just don’t care about F1 anymore.

  13. I thought this sort of stuff would never happen again, at least Red Bull and McLaren are still RACING teams.

    1. LOL, remember Kovi en Hamilton? Kovi “missed” a corner ;)

    2. And Ham and McLaren “dint” lie about anythin ;)

  14. Electrolite
    25th July 2010, 14:39

    I’m sure a lot of people were with me in backing Ferrari for a 1-2 today, but it was simple what we saw. A team order.

    1. I agree – I wanted this result, but not in this way.

  15. Sad day. It was a year after Felipe’s accident. Would have been so geat for Felipe to win it.

    And mind you, he was ahead not just by virtue of a great start but also by some supreme defending. That 5-car mess was astutely handled by Felipe!!

    As a Ferrari fan I am saddened. But please don’t penalise them. They are not ‘that’ bad that they deserve this win to be taken away.

  16. I can’t stand to look to Alonso now on the podium.
    Disgusting, absolutely disgusting :(

  17. if its a British team/driver doing the bending of rules, nobody gives a damn about it. if its non-brit, all of you grit.

    1. + 1

      There isn’t too much diference beetween this and “save fuel”…

      1. Well… one difference is that the McLarens in Turkey had less than a lap of fuel on board when they stopped after the in-lap, ie, they were actually short on fuel.

        1. u were one of the the guys in parc ferme and u checked that urself because that is not info that is made available to the public afterwards ;)

    2. I am not British. I am often very critical of McLaren.

      This was a disgrace. Alonso did not deserve to win. It is a clear breach of 39.1……

    3. Good point mate. But this is a British blog, what do you expect?

    4. That’s complete rubbish. This site was among the first to point out the radio message given to Hamilton at Turkey that Button wasn’t going to pass him, right before he did.

      1. That’s not considered team orders. “keep station” was explained as an OK order by the FIA after the 2007 Monaco inquery of Hamilton vs Alonso.

      2. and at least mclaren cars fought wheel by wheel for 5 turns… neither of them “let go” the other one!!

      3. ‘Don’t pass’ doesn’t change the outcome. ‘Let him past’ does. I am not happy with ‘Don’t pass’, I think it is wrong, but it is not underhand.

        Isn’t it about time that F1 banned pit to car radio so that the driver is responsible for everything that happens on track?

        1. They will just tell the drivers upfront

        2. Interesting point that, quite good. with no team radio, they cannot order someone to pass, but they also warn of other things such as bad weather approaching. i heard it in their contracts that the other driver comes first, so maybe contracts should be checked for legitimacy to the rules.

      4. Roger Carballo AKA Archtrion
        25th July 2010, 15:36

        Agree Keith… you’re posts are really unbiased. But some of the commentary here… well… I agree Steph too, I remember the “well done for McLaren in turkey for keeping the team in the world championship battle”

      5. Keith, this site is totally non-biased!
        but some of the people here are not!
        They r waiting to pounce on ferrari.
        and i honestly think ferrari enjoys every bit of the criticism hurled at them.
        i think they love it! :)

    5. I think there’s a difference in telling your cars not to push to have one let another one by (and I’m certainly no McLaren fan). Remember the restrictions on engines/gearboxes/fuel. Look at all the points Red Bull have thrown away through failures caused by perhaps failures from pushing too hard.

      Whilst that order is partly strategy, this on the other hand is a deliberate manipulation of the result and championship.

      1. Electrolite
        25th July 2010, 15:33

        I cannot believe the generalisations being made about British fans on this thread.

    6. Eddie Irvine
      25th July 2010, 15:30

      I’m personally from Greece, and the most of f1fanatics are from every corner of the world. how can you even say that?
      Ferrari disgrace F1 and that is a fact!

      1. Funny, I always thought you were (Northern) Irish….:D

  18. hahahaha… Ferrari does it again.. let’s see IF any thing will happen to them.. i don’t think so.. But seriously this is not right.. Did u watch massa’s exit of the corner? lifted so much.. So what if alonso is faster? u can be faster then the car in front of you but that doesn’t mean you can pass it right?

  19. Quote from the top of the page at Formula1.com

    “Ferrari controlled Sunday’s German Grand Prix from start to finish after polesitter Sebastian Vettel dropped to third at the first turn. Felipe Massa was ahead of Fernando Alonso for the first 48 laps before moving aside for his team mate”

    haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    1. I went to formula1.com to see what their take on the pass was too Boombatz, what a joke that site is protecting itself from any controversy.

      1. That’s because they are investigating it, but don’t want to SAY they’re investigating it. That way, when the don’t penalize Ferrari, they think no one will notice…

        I’m in the USA and the race is on tape delay on FOX here in another 2 hours…I cant wait to see the US commentary on it!!!

  20. that was massa race not alonso!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  21. Disgusting. Any respect I had for Ferrari and Alonso have gone now.

    1. Icthyes how’d you feel Massa will do in Hungary? You said a couple of times that you had a feeling about Massa for this race and you were right and he would have won so I’m hoping you can bring him some luck for Hungary :)

  22. Let’s see how Jean Todt’s approval rating fairs next month!

  23. Mclaren lets their drivers fight for position and leads both championships. Maybe Ferrari should learn something from it.

    And Alonso, he still been the same driver who could not beat Hamilton as a team mate. And won a race after a farce: who remembers Piquet Jr?

  24. What Fernando alonso said in the press conference is an insult to the intelligence of the F1 fans everywhere.

    Complete utter disgrace.

  25. at least they didn’t force Felipe to crash.

    which are the last 3 races Alonso has won?

  26. If Ferrari are not penalized, it would make a mockery of the sporting regulations. Full stop. What a sad spectacle.

  27. lord sauron
    25th July 2010, 15:05

    no way ferrari should have any penalty.it should work

  28. I’ve always maintained that Santander bought Alonso number 1 driver seat at Ferrari, it’s simple as that. Thats why Kimi’s contract was bought by Santander instead of Massa… people wanted proof of this today they have got it…

    Alonso owns this team!!

    1. Santander did not need to do that – Ferrari were wating to have their new MSC, Alonso only had to prove his worth to them – Massa clearly is behind into the WDC, enough for Ferrari to think he cannot do it anymore.

      I hope he proves them, and his first part of the season wrong now, and ends, together with Webber, just in front of his teammate in the WDC. But that seems a bit unlikely.

  29. Obviously this will stand if – as is likely – those set to gain from any Ferrari penalty think *they* might need team orders by the end of the season, i.e. McLaren and Ferrari. So why was today so sickening?

    Ask Felipe Massa.

    1. (I mean ‘McLaren and RBR.’)

  30. Absolute disgrace, gutted for Massa and for Semdley having to do that. Imo the drivers should retain their points but no Constructors points for Ferrari from this round.

  31. Can any of the people claiming that British drivers and teams carry out team orders blatantly provide any examples? Or are you just trying to defend Ferrari by pretending that “everyone else is worse”? Perhaps it was always Luca Di Montezemolo that was the poisonous influence in Ferrari rather than Todt, Schumacher or anyone else…

  32. I sincerely hope that Mark will make the right conclusions.

  33. Massa…always the bridesmaid, never a bride :)
    This is why he will NEVER be F1 champion, no ego, no self respect, no killer instinct.Was there a team order? NO.They simply told him he’s not good enough to win, and he believed them…

    1. “Simply told him he’s no good enough to win?” Could you seriously be more naive??
      Do you really think it wasn’t an indirect team order but some misunderstanding or misjudging by Massa? geez.

      What puzzles me is, if Fernando was faster than Massa, why couldn’t he just get past him. He was stuck behind him all race long. Massa deserved to win. Even his team apologized to him.

      1. Yes, that is clearly the problem with this line of reasoning: why couldn’t Fernando do it himself on track if he was so much faster! And if not, well then maybe that is a sign not to do this?

      2. Is driving for ferrari worth this humiliation?He almost died in their car and this is how they repay him?

        1. Sure you are right, they didn’t pay him back the way he would have dreamed.I hope he gets a win in the Hungary GP & also hope he stays ahead of Alonso before the end of 2010 season.

  34. Should they get punished?

    Yes, absolutely.

    The rules are there to stop teams from doing this, particularly Ferrari…and they’ve blatantly broken them.

    Stripping all their points for the race is probably too lenient.

    1. It really is the basic point here. The rules exist. The team order was obvious. Penalty needed.

      Even the TV coverage showed ALL the evidence needed, as the Brazilian TV commentators noted: Smedley’s ‘talk’ to Felipe, team talking to Alonso, big clear graphic showing Felipe only half-accelerating after the turn. In fact Brazilian TV *predicted* what was about to happen… So the subsequent cover of it being a missed gear is ridiculous.

      For me it brings back Singapore 2008. No idea why, of course, since Alonso knew nothing…

      1. No, even that is the same, listen to Alonso not knowing what happened in the press conference. But still managing to say he had been worried about risky situations and people getting to close on track.

        Vettel was clearly realizing how it was for all of us being on the other side of the Red Bull drama in Turkey, seeing how talking it away didn’t sound very believable.

      2. The same happened on Star Sports Asia commentary. The fact these guys usually miss the most obvious stuff (like entire overtakes, mistake team mates etc) yet they managed to spot this as clear team orders tells you everything.

        The telementry shows you that Massa didn’t ‘miss gears’ and only accelerated at half speed.

  35. I’ve gone through this a thousand times and I’m still not sure what to think.

    Brazil 07, China 08 and 09 the slower Ferrari driver let the quicker one through and/or the one ahead in the title which is the same as today.

    It was the anniversary of that accident which makes it worse. Massa is still in it and let’s be honest, we’ve all been waiting for this from Alonso because of his reputation whether it’s even right or not.

    The racing should always be done on track so this was wrong but it’s not the end of the world. People saying they hate Ferrari need a history lesson as this has happened before. Fine, hate Ferrari today but don’t pretend they invented this.

    I don’t know what to think of Massa either. He’s a team player and as a Ferrari fan I love that but looking solely at a driver maybe today (although under pressure) he showed just why he isn’t the double world champion in the team. Massa could have gone quicker or just said no. I don’t agree in principal but in a competitive world I’d probably do the same as Ferrari to win. I suppose it’s working out whether it’s first you can win and then make it fair or be fair then see if you can win.

    Ferrari should be investigated. If anyone has complaints they should be but they won’t get done for it or if they do I’ll be surprised. They didn’t blatantly say. We think we know what happened but Ferrari can wriggle out of it as it wasn’t a clear cut message. I actually feel sorry for Ferrari today. They’re the most passionate team for racing but they lost that today and it was all about winning and God, everyone will hate them now.

    1. @ Massa is still in it and let’s be honest, we’ve all been waiting for this from Alonso because of his reputation whether it’s even right or not.

      That’s true. I really admire the post Steph. One thing I agree on is that Felipe shouldn’t have relented. It would have been better for him, Ferrari AND Alonso – whose reputation will suffer from this. But that’s blaming the nice guy. And Smedley realized all that. Really sad how this great Ferrari performance – which it was until the overtake – was blighted. Even on the podium they all looked miserable.

      1. @Steph I couldnt agree more with your statement. All my thoughts in a post!
        Just why oh why oh why did they have to do it! They were doing brilliantly and I would have loved it if Alonso could have just gotten passed Massa on his own accord. It’s happened before, but this has more or less ruined their credability.
        Did the right thing for the team but at the end of the day, it is against the rules. Regardless of whether the rule is obscure, they just shouldn’t do it. No team should if it’s in the rules. However it’s probably the least applicable rule in Formula 1.
        I think though, this has just really exposed the sport. Mike Gascoyne said after that all teams do it just much more discretely.
        Heard Ferrari have been summoned to the stewards though. If they punish anyone it should be Ferrari, not the drivers. They gave the order.

    2. When Smeddley came on the radio and asked him if he understood, he should have said something in the lines “sorry I can’t hear you well, my radio is broken”..If Ferrari wished to fire him afterwards, then so be it. It would have been even uglier for Ferrari and Alonso. I can only think Felipe needs the money, because, lets be honest, as a real F1 contender he is now finished.

      1. Sadly true. I feel really sorry for Felipe. He was betrayed by Ferrari today, a year after his accident. I’m sure he accepted the team order precisely because of their support to him after the accident. But he’s there racing because he wants to win and he’s entitled to be allowed to race – under FIA regulations, if not for any ethical principles Ferrari may or may not adhere to. Really sickening to watch.

  36. According Alonso, European GP was a “manipulated race”. I’d like to know what he is thinking about today’s race…

  37. F1 is all set up anyway, people just have to live with that! Mark Webber asked the team to tell Vettel to back off in Turkey, as he knew that “conserving fuel” was going to compramise his position with Vettel. Then what happens? Vettel gets told to “use your push to pass button” I mean come on! Might as well say “Mark we don’t really give a sh#* that you are leading, but we would like our young lad that we have invested heavily in to get in front of you, as we want him to win the championship, so if you could please do the right thing by us”.
    Its so obvious, every team up the top has their No. 1.
    Ferrari = Alonso, McLaren = Hamilton, RedBull = Vettel. Its very EASY to see that!
    The only way you are going to get real racing is if each team only has ONE car!

  38. Electrolite
    25th July 2010, 15:12

    Alonso had the chance to finish ahead of Massa when he started AHEAD of him.

    He then failed to pass him later on, and Massa pulled out a three second gap.

    Sure, for the most part Alonso was marginally quicker. Marginally. Before the team order it was like a hundredth of a second, so not much.

    But on lap 48, Massa still had the lead. It was going to be a fairytale victory and Ferrari robbed it from us.

  39. I am disgusted by what I saw. One year to the day after Massa’s terrible accident, and they take this win away from him?
    Alonso did not deserve the win, and his celebration on the podium and comments in the press conference treat all fans of F1 with contempt. No-one with even half a brain is in any doubt about the circumstances, and to talk like it didn’t happen shows what kind of a man he really is.
    By the way, I’m not British, I’m an one-eyed Australian Webber fan, so my opinion is not from any anti-Alonso/Spain sentiment.

    1. And what is this nonsense about having to let your teammate past because he is faster? By this ridiculous logic, every time a car catches you, you should let him past? You don’t let cars past just because they are faster. That is why it is called RACING!
      Imagine poor Trulli (of the Trulli Train fame) if this were the norm. He would spend the entire racing letting people past!

      1. Yeah, that’s exactly how i see things too. Massa should’ve just said ‘if Fernando really is faster, then i wanna see him overtake me’. I really feel sorry for him.

  40. The only person to lose out was Massa, it would still have been a 1-2 and while Ferrari have not done this properly it is the same as saying to a driver to save fuel when only the pit wall knows what fuel is left. When Button was told today to hold station is that not team orders?

    1. Yes. Eddie Jordan agrees in that he classified his instructions to Hill and Ralf Schumacher at Belgium 1998 as team orders.

      Ferrari obviously manipulated the result to maximise their outcome in terms of increasing their chance of winnning the WDC. Its a gamble as they might be penalised if they are not the gamble has paid off.

      Having said that Massa would have gone into the race knowing he would be supporting Alonso’s title bid as his gap to Hamilton, Button, Webber and Vettel and Alonso was too great to overcome all of them.

      The ends always justify the means in sport!

    2. exactly, when they said “save fuel” all I heard was “Button is not going to push so don’t worry” and then they told him to push…

      1. Electrolite
        25th July 2010, 15:27

        I’m sure 9/10 people would completely disagree though. How anyone could defend Ferrari today is frankly laughable. And 9/10 people can’t be wrong.

  41. Of course the result will not stand. And guess what ? Yet another schoolboy error (and behaviour) by Alonso. He really is IMO an average driver compared to the top drivers, and needs the result to be manipulated for him to win and needs a strong contract to beat the best. He did not get it at Mclaren in 07, he clearly got it at Ferrari.
    Cheaters eventually get punished.

    1. wasn’t he voted best driver by the other drivers?

      1. That may begin to change.

  42. Massa is a door mat.

    1. Massa has a sense of loyalty that was exploited by Ferrari and indirectly by Alonso, whose ambition exceeds his talent (which is high) and makes him unnecessarily desperate to win. He should have accepted 2nd with good grace, acknowledging Felipe did well, or at the very least blaming Vettel’s mad lunge (again) at the start for screwing them both.

  43. Although I’m a Ferrari fan I hate team orders, especially when they’re made so openly. However, as Alesi pointed out, other teams like RB or McLaren are hypocritical when they blame Ferrari about these facts. In Turkey Horner ordered Webber to “save fuel” when he was ahead of Vettel…

    1. or maybe was Withmarsh with Button…

    2. or maybe it was Withmarsh with Button…

  44. Bartholomew
    25th July 2010, 15:16

    This is no big deal. Everyone does it. The whole team should have practised beforehand a more subtle way of doing it. Alonso was much faster anyway.

    LOL Ferrari: The Three Stooges Team
    If something happens, Lou diMonty will step up to the microphone
    GO FAST FRED !!!!!!

  45. So with Alonso having criticised the FIA for not punishing Hamilton enough for breaking the rules, what will his opinion be now.

  46. Happy to hear (finally) this is a brit blog ….

    Alonso has been bitterly hit by FIA regulations in last races, with Hamilton escaping …

    As said, brit blog ….. bye bye and enjoy the championship and “your” blog.

    1. What does the nature of this blog have to do with what happened in the race? hmm? did you enjoy Alonso winning like that?

    2. the co.uk could have been a hint?

      But I recall most people thinking Hamilton was let off easy for his Canada post-pole pushing, and the SC thing in Valencia, and agreed that Ferrari were unfairly hit there, and were unlucky with the Silverstone SC timing too.

      But I don’t think you can blame people not having Spanish or Italian media for not having been whitewashed with the tone of Ferrari whining about these things, even if in Silverstone they could have prevented it by just giving back a place and gaining it again when KUB pulled out three laps later; or for forgetting to race in Valencia after it happened. Ferrari were having some real points to make, but at the same time were overreacting and blaming everyone but themselves. Not very impressive.

      This race they finally showed the pace, had a great race, and then felt they needed to spoil the race for their WDC. Thanks guys, that’s not the way to show you are the ones that “follow the rules while others don’t”.

      I am Dutch, by the way, not British, and I wanted Alonso to win this, just not this way.

  47. Pityful podium, stacked by Santander. Looking at them I felt complete and utter disgust. They wasn’t even happy, neither Fernando nor Felipe. But well, Santander officials were present in Ferrari’s garage and Santander billboards were all over the place. How could not Alonso win?

    FIA have to do something with it.

  48. What a load of rubbish……DISQUALIFY BOTH CARS, BLATENTLY A CHEATING INSTRUCTION, SPOILT AN OTHERWISE GOOD RACE, FIA SHOULD BE PULLED BEFORE THE COURTS IF THEY DO NOTHING. I AM BECOMMING MORE INCLINED TO DESERTING A SPORT THAT I HAVE FOLLOWED FOR YEARS, WHAT A DISSAPOINTING ‘RACE’ . Eddie (Jordan) you rule and speak for the honest everyday guy, keep on rocking.

  49. Teflonso strikes again!
    Seriously guys – if this is not a team order, as clear as they come, then nothing is. Therefore, if they let this one stand – then 39.1 is simply meaningless and is a joke, like today’s GP.

  50. come on guys.. don’t make hullahbullah out of this. it is well known fact that every team gives some team orders in well disguised manner (but brits r good in framing words.. as rob smedley being native english..i thought he can frame it bit better unless he wants to expose this). what McLaren did to hamilton when they asked to back off in monaco & brings to pit earlier?? what redbull has done last week. it is blatant favor and i read some one said they are racing teams.

    I am ferrari fan..but i feel that they should have been more clever in framing that words. you need to see bigger picture.Massa is more than 30points behind alonso and nearly 3 race wins behind hamiltion. so it is lot tougher for him to catch hamiltion and provide some credible challenge for WDC than alonso.

    Bottom line is what Ferrari done is right but the way they have done should have been better.

    1. Well, it is a bit like with Barrichello, before, Smedley and Massa are the ones that clearly showed how it was – not the choice of the rest of the team, I would think. Since we have the WDC as well, and 30/200+ points isn’t all that big, favouring Alonoso over Massa for the win was not acceptable or me, especially with a fast Alonso that should have been able to go after Massa on track by himself.

  51. Shame on Ferrari, shame for Massa cheated of a victory. Alonso spends so much of his time wingeing, bitching and moaning, he’s a petulant baby and it’s nauseating that Ferrari bow to this pre assure. I hope the FIA take decisive action and strip the team of points, demote Alsonso to second and give Massa the win.

  52. All the bad things I was thinking of Alonso have just been shown today. This uy is just a shame. He needs absolutely the other driver of the team to work for him to win a cahmpionship. Thank god his political tactic didn’t work with Lewis while driving for McLaren and Lewis dominated him completely during his first F1 season. There was no other issue for him just to escape the place because he just found a real fighter and competitor. This guy is really sadness. And I wanted to vomit as he seemed so staisfied to have robbed the victory. And Ferrari is just Ferrari: Politic & Mafia. Pff, I don’t understand why they have not been penalised. Jean Todt is there now at the FIA working hardly for Ferrari…that’s what we call “conflicrt of interrest”. L

  53. Remember when Mas held up Alo in the early races? There were a few comments then saying Mas should let him through..

  54. Batumifune et al

    If your defence is that someone else did it too then you are admitting that something was wrong. In court you can’t say “I’m innocent because he did it too”. Ferrari should at least have the guts to admit it, and at least Alonso didn’t get Massa to stand on the podium in his place as what happened in Austria.

  55. When you remmeber great races, you will probably remember great overtaken manouvres, not race results…
    Prove: Do you remember when Piquet overtook Senna in Hungry? Of course you do, do your remember who won that race?
    We all miss that time…
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeemlgJkjUs

  56. i am waiting for a penalty for ferrari… there must be action taken by fia!

  57. I think such team orders (on whatever level) ruin the credability of the sport. To me it’s like two football teams playing in the group stages of the World Cup only needing a draw to progress. Therefore, what they do is just kick the ball from end to end to ensure the result that’s most beneficial to them. F1 is about racing and there shouldn’t be any attempt to manipulate a result (regardless of whether it’s in a driver’s contract that they’re number 2 or not). It’s not either of the driver’s fault (although Alonso evidently wanted to be let past) but I think the following should happen:

    – Massa should be given the win,
    – Alonso given second and;
    – Ferrari docked ‘x’ amount of points in the Constructors’ championship.

    Poor show for F1.

  58. Andy (frome in somerset)
    25th July 2010, 15:25

    DISGUSTED.
    Although i support jenson here in frome,his home town massa clearly should have won.2002 all over again.BAN CAR RADIOS,this should not happen.

  59. Christopher
    25th July 2010, 15:25

    Team orders destroy a race when they require one driver to give way to another. The winner has to win the race by *overtaking* all of the other drivers, not because the people in front have been asked to move out of his way. In my opinion, the team order of “hold station” or “save fuel” is on the borderline of what is acceptable, because at least the eventual winner was originally ahead of their teammate. What happened today was just wrong – and the lack of any celebration on the podium, the dejection of Felipe in the press conference, and the ridiculous site of Fernando and the Ferrari team trying to spin it as a legitimate overtake just added insult to injury and left a bitter taste in the mouth. It was a blatant team order. It tarnishes Alonso’s win (and his championship if he goes on to win it), and it leaves me, as a fan, feeling robbed of a good race. This is so much worse than taking a front wing from one driver and giving it to another. Oh – and watching the red button now and seeing Ferrari try to claim that it was a driver decision – we are not idiots.

    1. Don’t get me wrong mate. I’m not trying to get personal with you, if you do feel that way, i’d like to apologize beforehand, as that was not my intent.

      I believe that in life there’s right and there’s wrong… acceptable is only when you’re willing to compromise… Fact is everyone in F1 pulls a stunt like this now and then… I also felt robbed as i was backing Button for championship and he’s routinely asked to hold station… To me, “hold stations” is not acceptable, as that disadvantages Button in the championship. He takes care of his car and he could easily run down Lewis towards end of the race, as he demonstrated. Honestly it was sad to see Felipe gutted, but can you really say that this was not in Ferrari’s best interests. Funny how things become “acceptable” when they are in our favour, or atleast in favour of what we want…

      Honestly now, i didn’t see many people complain when it happened in China in ’08. Certainly media didn’t whinge and moan when DC was robbed twice. I didn’t see media whip at McLaren posterboy for lying through his teeth. I didn’t see media flail McLaren for stealing from Ferrari, which is what they did. I think, most found it “acceptable” while i was disgusted and i thought it was wrong!

      I’ll be the first to admit, they could be a lot more clever with this. They did it in open and may be they’ll contest the rule with evidence that it doesn’t work. Hopefully, it will evolve into something better.

  60. William Wilgus
    25th July 2010, 15:26

    Massa wasn’t told to let Alonso by, only that he was faster. While you can look at that as a ‘de facto’ team order to let Alonso by, you can also look at it as a sporting gesture by Massa to let him by. From a team standpoint, it made sense to have Alonso take the higher position because of his Driver’s Championship lead over Massa. Someone else commented about Massa’s tires, so the Ferrari radio message to Massa may have just been an ‘insurance call’ to have Ferrari win . . . a logical move on the team’s part.

    1. Keep telling yourself he wasn’t told to let Alonso past, the “let me know you understood the message” was clear or most of the rest of the world, I think.

      Team makes sense to do it, but it is not allowed, bad rule or not. Maybe they should have asked Whiting what he thought of it :-p

  61. Typical Ferrari, win at any cost!!! never mind the drivers they are only paid employees – rediculous!!!

  62. I’m am absolutely bitter at Ferrari for this insultive move!!…Felipe still has an argueable chance of winning the championship!!…How dare you order him to move!!…Nah!…Had I been Felipe, I would Ignore by claiming the radio wasn’t working!!….SHAME ON FERRARI…I hate this soooo much!…

    FIA should step in…either give Felipe the win or..NOTHING!!

    Same would happen in Hungary for sure because determined Felipe would be ahead of Alonso come turn one in 7days….GEEZ!

    1. lord sauron
      25th July 2010, 15:35

      dude its ridiculous. massa has never been a title material. cya in hungary

  63. i predicted a ferrari one two….but did not expect such live cheating….MASSA has been hit below the belt by this decision and i am just thinking may it is true that that singapore saga of a manufactured win for Alonso while at renault BY HIS TEAM MATE may now come back to haunt him
    FERRARI have ruined my sunday …but thanks to mclaren ..we have a light at the end of the tunnel…ferrari will need to win three times while mclaren failling to finish in order for them “ferrarti” to win the championship….which is highly unlikely…

  64. Alonso said he didn’t know what happened. He’s a poor guy. He always know anything what happens within his team.

  65. Nothing to so with being British BatuMifune, Massa is’t British and this has nothing to do with Mclaren. This has to do with millions of spectators being cheated of a of a decent race. At least when Webber and Vetel race they really race like the start of the last GP and when they actually crashed into each other in Turkey.
    Sport is sport and Alonso isn’t a sportsman.

  66. lord sauron
    25th July 2010, 15:30

    ferrari shouldnt pulled this crap!its bad for spirit of F1.Never control the race ferrari.
    Hey! by the way my fav won. great job fernando. just wasnt getting enough of you

  67. To be frank, it is a team order, but there is no way to prove it… I mean, how can the FIA prove that?

    Sadly, no way. But to be honest, this ban on team order is also silly…. why?

    Simple… F1 is a team sport…. the driverS are just part of the team… its like the Tour de France or WRC…

  68. Massa was not ordered to let Alonso past he was told that Alonso was faster and he let him pass. It is a team sport where the team result is more important.

    1. I think people are making too much of this – but seriously, Rampante, he wasn’t told to let Alonso pass? Please!

      1. I don’t agree with it but at no point was he told to let him pass. Smedley told him Alo was faster. if the ‘do you understand’ was the code to let him pass it would still have been wrong.

        1. And where did the “sorry” come from? I cannot see it comming from anything that guilt. Smedley assisted in cheating his own protégé to such a meaningful win.

  69. Whether it was the best for the team or not, the rule is quite clear:
    “39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.” (Outta the FIA regulations).
    Besides, they are both still in the running for the championship. Who knows what can happen in the next half of the championship?
    In 2,007, both McLaren drivers were mathematically and realistically able to win the title in the last race of the year. Kimi Räikkönen took it. Maybe McLaren weren’t such smartasses as Ferrari, but that was fair play.
    I’m sorry if any of you like opportunism, but fair beats smartass.

  70. 1998 – Coulthard was a second driver
    1999 – Coulthard was a second driver
    2000- Barichello and Schumacher…
    2001 – Barichello and Schumacher…
    2002 – Barichello and Schumacher…
    2003 – Barichello and Schumacher…
    2004 – Barichello and Schumacher…
    2005 – Fisichella was a second driver
    2006 – Fisichella was a second driver
    2007 – Massa became a second driver in end of the season
    2008 – Kovalainen was clearly a second driver
    2009 – Barichello was a second driver

    1. Barichello in 2009 was not exploited, otherwise he wouldn’t have won the 2009 Italian GP for example, when Button really needed points.

      1. That was because Barichello had complained in the Spanish Grand Prix when they added an extra pit stop so that Button would win.

        http://www.shanghaidaily.com/sp/article/2009/200905/20090511/article_400461.htm

        1. They had agreed on that strategy ahead of the race and Barrichello just didn’t make it work.

          1. Could be argued Brawn knew this in advance, but still, not the same as having to let your teammate through for the win.

    2. Kovalainen was quite simply outraced, no team order needed.

  71. Disgraceful act! Ferrari u guys are disgusting to say the least

  72. I must say that I’m really disappointed by the author of this blog. After the Turkish GP, I don’t remember seeing anything like “Hamilton wins as Button is told to stay behind”. It seems that Ferrari is the only team giving orders to their drivers, when it is obviously not the case.

    It’s true that it must be massively disappointing for Felipe, but what was the team supposed to do? Alonso was faster and Vettle was coming close.
    Maybe it would have been better to let them fight and see them crash into each other like Red Bull did in Turkey? I don’t think so.

    Also I don’t remember anyone complaining when Massa let Kimi pass in 2007. But hey it’s Alonso, so it’s okay to bash him. The MacLaren fans shouldn’t be talking to much, because there is a great deal of chance the team will be confronted with the same kind situation by the end of the season.

    As Schumacher ans Coultard said after the race: It was the right thing to do. Ferrari is a professional team. The drivers are professional drivers. In the end the objective is to win the championship, full stop.

    Oh yeah and Horner saying what Ferrari’s done was wrong: that was priceless. After what happened in Turkey and in Britain he’d better keep his mouth shut.

    All I see here is just hate and a awful lot of frustration.

    Anyway congratulations to both drivers, they’ve done a fantastic job this week end. Can’t wait for next week’s GP.

    1. There’s a big difference between telling two drivers to hold position at the end of the race and telling a driver to move over for an equally faster team mate 2/3rds into a race.

      One’s understandable, the other is less so.

      1. You’re right mate, there is a big difference. One is legal, the other isn’t!

        1. Both are team orders. Both are illegal.

          1. Actually, both are NOT illegal. There is precedent where FIA have ruled that giving holding orders such as ‘conserve fuel’ are legal (not to mention the fact that the drivers overtook each other twice!)

            Telling one driver to slow down and let another past is against the rules. It is also illegal under European Law and could be considered ‘fixing’ (ask any number of Italian football referees!)

      2. True. But if you consider the situation from a logical point of view, this decision makes perfect sense. I admit that what happened is really unfair to Felipe and that he doesn’t deserve that. But let’s face it: as much as I like the guy, there’s no way he’s going the win the championship this year. Ferrari couldn’t afford to take any risks this week-end.

    2. Is it a manipulated race or not????
      Stop defending everything about Alonso!!!!

  73. I feel a DQ for Ferrai is appropriate, because no one can deny that this was a team order that interfered with the end result.

  74. The Alonso-Massa manoeuvre has reminded me the 2008 German GP in this circuit. Kovalainen did the same with Hamilton. I don’t remember any controversy (like some sites are saying) after that.

  75. I have never wanted massa to win a race so much! fully deserving! massa was robbed poor kid :(

  76. The no team-orders rule is totally out of place in F1. Without it, it would be in the team’s best interest to keep both drivers happy somehow.

    And is Ferrari favoring Alonso? Duh. Massa has less points than Rosberg and Kubica. Thats the only reason for the decision.

    1. If Ferrari doesn’t let him win he will never recover from the position of the championship

  77. I simply feel ashamed for the sport.

    Terrible terrible day if they get away with this.

  78. asked, not ordered. big difference.

  79. Alonso, “I don’t consider F1 a sport any more.”

    Yeah because of guys like you Alonso.

    And on the side, what about those of us who took a punt on Massa to win and lost money! Also interesting to see how Massa will mentally approach the rest of the season.

    1. same here..really wonna see how he’d approach the rest of the season!!..I think it would affect him positively though!!

    2. The betting thing is a good point – clearly the reason that, for example, horse racing doesn’t allow any sort of team orders (provided they are discovered, of course, and I guess they do happen).

  80. i think as much as the race winner has been manipulated by Ferrari, they could just get away with this one.

    They didn’t really tell Massa to “let Fernando pass”.
    It was disguised (but quite obviously), we know what it meant, but Ferrari can come up with a lot of reasons. They can tell that it was a suggestion for Massa to let Fernando pass, but not actually an “order”… In the first place, they would not have had that radio conversation of they didn’t have a good explanation for the FIA…

    1. In 2007 there was less evidence supporting the ”Spygate”, so I will be (and many others) very, very disappointed if Ferrari gets away with this one.

      1. If you call a design document with several hundred pages being photocopied less evidence… then may be yes… If you McLaren systems running Ferrari data and being caught lying at it, then yes, perhaps there was less evidence mate…

  81. Jhonnie Siggie
    25th July 2010, 15:36

    Fernando claims that because he was quick all weekend, he deserves to win. Why not just give out points based on Quali on Saturdays? That way I could use my Sunday mornings in a productive way….

    1. haha… Jhonnie, I agree!

      1. Vettel might like that rule too :)

  82. What a bunch of loosers… I have always been critical of Ferrari and I see today that i am justified! No-one likes a cheat.

  83. Ferrari did absolutely the right thing. Alonso, who was faster of all all weekend long, was at least 6-7 tenths quicker than Massa just before the team order. Had they not done that, Alonso would have surely attempted to overtake Massa, and probably would have done it, at some point. But it would have been a very risky move for the team. Alonso and Massa have not ever been on the best of terms, so a repeat of the Webber-Vettel disaster in Turkey would have been a distinct possibility.

    Now the extension of Massa’s contract is starting to make some sense, since he must have accepted to include a “driver #2 status” in his contract. He has not been anywhere near Alonso (in equal cars) this year.

    Recall that McLaren also gave (effectively) team orders to their drivers a couple of races ago, not allowing Button to overtake Hamilton.

    1. Absolute nonsens! Do we want a race between DRIVERS – or do we want rigged team races!!
      McLaren did NOT prevent Button from overtaking and in any case Hamilton has every race proven he is both the better driver & overtaker beyond doubt!

      1. You are delusional. In fact, it would also have been a team order if the opposite happened, that is the had told Alonso to hold place and not attempt a pass. OK ?

        1. Well then it probably wouldn’t have sparked such a debate

    2. The most memorable races are when people other than the predictably fast car/driver win. If it was a matter of being fastest only, then you only need qualifying, not a race, Red Bull would have already won the WCC this year. And it would not be F1.

  84. Ferrari have been summoned to see the German Grand Prix stewards.

    1. Wow Keith, you are indeed fastest!!

    2. Ferrari will get away if Smedley and Massa comply with the “gear change” theory which Stefano said on BBC.

      But I am sure, some code word will be used next race onwards

      1. they can investivage the ‘gear change’ from the car telemetry.. everything gets recorded

        1. We clearly saw it on the telly, Massa was half throttle going along the straight.

        2. You could tell from the graphic on TV already. Massa was using half throttle coming out of the corner. he only went full throttle when Alonso came past.

  85. disgrace. this is why i hate ferrari. they think they can do anythign and get away with it.. and once again they may well get away with this..

    massa was 3 seconds up on alonso at one point. the overtake was blatant that massa slowed down. why would massa be so p***ed off if it wasnt a team order. why would smedley appologise..?

    ferrari need punishing. seems the only way alonso can win nowadays..

  86. Honsetly,I think Alonso should be given a 25 second penalty for a thing like this.This wasn’t racing it was cheating.Anymore a driver should get a drive through or a 25 second penalty(If it’s in the last 10 laps)if he benefited from a team order and maybe this thing will happen less and less.

    1. i think ferrari should be punished as a team. both cars disqualified. or alonso at the very least.

  87. A FULL DISGRACE for F1 and Massa.

    Afterall Schumacher (2004) was not the evil cause.

    For me F1 will go on vacations for long…

  88. In 2008 when Kovalainen let Hamilton pass him on a number of occasions you Brits weren’t so disgust.

    1. Exactly it’s different when a Brit is favoured…

    2. Doesn’t change the fact that Alonso is a cheat! Dirty little cheat… wherever he goes, there is trouble. Moan, trouble, moan, trouble, moan… what a failure of a man.

      1. I don’t like team orders, but it wasn’t Alonso that made the team order it was probably Domenicali.

        As a Swede I must say Spaniards, Germans and Brits all are very biased in their reactions to what happens in the F1 circus.

    3. Obviously it’s a completely different situation when a driver deceides (on his own) not to defend as if his life depends on it to keep a much faster team member behind him.

  89. 1. Alonso was quicker. Please, guys, check the times!
    2. The team must think in the championship, and Alonso is enough ahead of Massa and really their only chance (compare qualifying performance, for instance).
    3. Vettel was also quicker than Massa.

    So, what do you think Massa should do? And Domenicalli? And Alonso?

    The team self-imposed order was not to take unnecessary risks and battle for the championship. If self-imposed orders are allowed, then Ferrari’s behaviour was ok. Massa should practise how to break, of course.

    1. if alonso was quicker.. then he wouldnt have a problem passing massa would he..?

    2. If he was that much quicker then why wasn’t he able to make a move? Vettel was the quickest driver and Massa held him back no problem! And Alonso only pulled 4 second gap by the end of the race while trying to push for a fastest time (which he failed), he was hardly faster than Massa!

      1. Mateuss, you are exactly right! Alonso is sometime a great drive, most of the time he is a looser and cannot overtake. Like today! However, he is a complete failure of a man…

    3. Vettel was 6 seconds down. How was he a threat?

  90. I don’t see why they would punish Ferrari. They did exactly the same in China 2008 and it was ok.

    1. That was NOT the same. Not even remotely.

  91. no one’s an angel…. even I am not…

    No team is an angel….

    Even Red Bull may be in trouble…. if any of you have noticed…. their front wings really flex’d alot? I remember that is not legal too?

  92. It was the best strategy for Ferrari. Thinking different is kind of hypocrisy. I like Massa but it is clear he is not a title contender

  93. it is wrong for ferrari to cheat as it is unfair for the many millions of people who have been robbed of a winning bet at the bookies all this has done is show f1 to be corrupt

  94. We have not heard from the “Driver” steward very unusual being he always has an opinion with the biggest mouth & smallest brain on US TV!! This goes back to his “modus” F3 days!!

  95. Do not shoot the drivers for this. Alonso was not at any fault here. He was quicker and the team let him pass. Ferrari couldn’t do it properly, it was too open and stupid. But lets not talk about the team orders rule here. It is a ridiculously flawed and ineffective rule which shouldn’t be there first of all or should be better implemented if there.
    Team orders are ALWAYS there, you need to do it cleverly, which is what Ferrari failed at today. End of story.
    Could Massa have won today? Maybe, maybe not, maybe Alonso would have got past anyway. But the pass was tailored to prevent Vettel getting too close imo.
    Not so picture perfect for F1, but I don’t think any penalties would be possible here.

  96. Am Huge Ferrari Fan all the way…
    But i didn’t like that Ferrari team did at all… SHAME on them!!.. This is going to destroy F1 Spirit

    In my opinion.. Massa could stay in front and defend his position

  97. Nothing to do with being British, good manners, honesty and fair play yes but bias because I’m British NO. Iwanted a RACE not a FARCE.

    1. But then, F1 is a team sport, am I right? so team orders are wrong for a team sport?

      1. Yes, they are… because team orders = no race. This was a farce and a bad day for F1.

      2. The rules say they are not allowed yes.

  98. Seems to me that as somehow all the comments of “disgusting” “disgrace”, etc would be a lot less vehement if the same exact maneuver were pulled by any other team.

    That doesn’t mean that I don’t think it sucks – but at the same time, I’ve never understood why ‘2nd drivers’ don’t just tell their team to frig off when they’re given orders like this. Surely if they don’t stand up for themselves – why should you?

  99. FIA can read as much into it as they like. Ferrari simply told Massa that alonso was faster than him and then apologised when he lost the place because it was unfortunate.

    At least thats what Ferrari will tell the stewarts.

    Nothing can be proven.

  100. after reading all the comments, I think the best is just to remove the team order ruling…. it is silly….

  101. Alonso is MARDY. Last race comment from him ‘It;s not fair’ NO- – – NIETHER IS TEAM ORDERS, – WHATS FAIR IN THAT ALONSO??????

  102. Hmm, i really knew early in the morning that Ferrari were going to win. Yes, the Paul effect… it just came to me :D

    Then again, how it happened is not how i saw it… However, no one wanted a repeat of what Red Bull did… and Massa could have said as much in the press conference… “Alonso was faster and instead of running into each other, like one other team did, i chose to let him pass.” I’m sure FIA would have let that one slide, without much a do and it would have been embarassing for the media guy interviewing Massa and other teams to bring it up. What? Now McLaren will try and teach Ferrari about “fuel loads”… Do you still wonder why Hamilton was shocked :P Hamilton knew the team orders, meanwhile someone forgot to inform Button and he took advantage, which was corrected later on… but heck it ruffled some feathers in and outside the team. Of course, everyone also conveniently forgets how DC was asked to move over more than once to let Mika pass :P No! McLaren, isn’t any better. Williams… yes, they could claim to be whiter than white in this case :)

    1. Enrique Miguel
      25th July 2010, 17:34

      now, You have a point, everybody does it at one point.

  103. I really agree with you

  104. Also happened at Mclaren in Turkey?
    Jenson was not allowed to pass Lewis. (Team to Button in code-language: Save Fuel)

    Team to Lewis: Jenson is not gonna pass you.

    Jenson didn’t listen to team and try to pass Hamilton.

    Team said something to Button and he backed off.

    “Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.”

    Race results were interfered. Jenson should win, not Hamilton

    1. Excellent point.

    2. Well, in Monaco 2007 Hamilton made a big fuss over not being allowed to race Alonso and the FIA decided that instructing drivers to hold station is not interfering with the race result. So I can see why that isn’t necessarily a valid precedent.

      What IS a valid precedent, however, is Silverstone and Hockenheim 2008, where on both occasions Kovalainen let Hamilton past, once for the lead. Neither time was an investigation even announced, much less a penalty issued. In fact I don’t believe any team has ever been punished for team orders, despite several occasions when they have obviously happened. If the FIA decide to start enforcing this rule now, after so many years when it has been totally ignored, that would be the bigger disgrace.

    3. So telling two of your drivers to hold position and not crash into each other at the end of the race is just as bad as telling a driver leading the race to let an equally fast team mate past? I disagree.

    4. The Hundredth Idiot
      25th July 2010, 16:02

      To be fair, at that point Jenson actually needed to save fuel to finish the race – can’t remember who said it, but Jenson really was critical on fuel and was pushing it awfully close to try and overtake Lewis.

      1. I’m sure Jenson knew it better than most of us commenting over here mate. I’m sure he’d have had a look at fuel and thought, “well, i could make it stick!” I’m dead certain, if he didn’t knew any better, he wouldn’t be driving competitively, leave alone F1 and do not forget, he’s a world champion. “Fuel load” is just McLaren propaganda, which to my bemusement, the media is rather keenly willing to lap up.

  105. I would like to hear before Abu Dhabi that ” …Massa is faster than you, do you understand that message?” – What would i get?

  106. Younger Hamilton
    25th July 2010, 15:55

    LIARS THIEVES and CHEATS CHEATS CHEATS and another word,CHEATS.Ferrari are making F1 very bad i cant believe they’ve done it again dont they learn and see with their eyes.Alonso deserved no GP win today i do not give a damn if he is feeling sorry for Felipe and being miserable which he is right now.Poor Rob Smedley and Felipe Massa,True Grand Prix winners here and i feel so sorry for them, and this is coming from a McLaren fan.Felipe almost died a year ago today and what they do,strip away a likely grand prix win from him and break a close friend’s heart.Well Done Felipe Massa wins the German grand Prix.

  107. All the blame seems to be centred on Alonso and Ferrari, however, Massa also must be blamed, as whatever he must have felt inside, he still gave way to Alonso. If Massa hadn’t done this, he would have won the race,and then, he should have had enough sense to talk it out with the FIA and make sure they supply stewards to ensure driver parity. This is what Alonso did in 2007, so it is definitely doable!

    My verdict is that the team and its drivers should be docked points.

    1. Yes, Massa did show why he isn’t a champion but a team player, I guess. He could have done a Webber, and the team could not officially have blamed him. And maybe Alonso would still have won. Or maybe Massa would have turned the season around and gone for the WDC, winning then next two races as well.

  108. When Felipe slowed down, maybe Fernando should have stayed back behind him. If Ferrari is interested in having a shot at the drivers’ title it is very clear Fernando is the better bet so the call to Felipe to “save fuel” is warranted (in fact I don’t think they’d deserve the drivers’ had Massa won). Alonso raking up 25pts today was a must for them and they still have a huge mountain to climb. He tried to pass Felipe on the track and even slowed down to prove he was faster. Should Felipe have won in Brasil ’07? No. It may look sad to the untrained eye but it’s not the first time it happens. They’ll have to rethink the law if they aren’t going to enforce it too. Just playing devil’s advocate. Cheers.

  109. Younger Hamilton
    25th July 2010, 15:58

    Lewis,P4 and Jenson P5 really satisfied with that not the best results but we saved ourselves once again,still leading the drivers and constructors championship.

    Come On McLaren, get it together next week in Hungary.

  110. http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/07/20/lewis-hamilton-wins-despite-strategy-blunder-2008-german-gp-review/

    Keith, you should be ashamed of this.
    you’re clearly an anti-alonsist and you show that day by day.

    I don’t think I’ll ever visit this site again, seriously..

    1. Oh please. Hamilton was way faster than Kovalainen and Kovalainen decided not to make Hamilton’s race difficult since he knew he wouldn’t be able to keep him behind anyway.

      Hamilton also simply drove past Massa and Piquet. Were those team orders too?

      Alonso obviously was unable to get past Massa and had to ask his team to instruct Massa to let him by.

      Seriously even suggesting that these situations are remotely comparable is a disgrace.

      1. Patrick, Alonso was faster than Massa as well. Not by as much, perhaps, but he was faster.

        What is the disgrace is the sheer hypocrisy of you and everyone else who is condemning Ferrari for this, yet were mysteriously silent about it at Hockenheim in 2008. And in the previous race when the same thing happened.

    2. Hamilton and Kovalainen were on completely different strategies. It was inevitable Hamilton was going to get past.

      As Patrickl points out (and as I wrote in the report, I now see!) Hamilton went past Massa almost as easily as he went past Kovalainen.

      1. Hamilton and Kovalainen were on completely different strategies. It was inevitable Hamilton was going to get past.

        So that makes team orders okay, does it? Either you have them or you don’t – and we’ve had them, in several forms, since 2002 and on all occasions they’ve gone completely unpunished. Until today.

        As far as I can see the difference between the two cases is one of degree, not of kind. So why the furore over this incident and not that one, or any of the others? It simply doesn’t make sense.

        1. Who ever said there were team orders that day?? Kov knew Hamilton was quicker and didn’t put up much of a fight.

          Thats different to being the same speed and being told to let the guy past.

    3. Paper Tiger
      25th July 2010, 20:58

      “I don’t think I’ll ever visit this site again”.

      Don’t let the door hit you on your way out.

  111. I think Alonso had the pace to get past Massa on track. I don’t know why Ferrari had to spell out such obvious instructions. It looks very poor and is insulting to Massa.

    However, it is also clear that Massa is no longer a real challenger in the Driver Championship this year…I don’t know why it is being mentioned as otherwise.

    1. I agree with you on the first part. I just wish so much they’d had let Alonso try himself to pass! Personally I think he could have done it (just) if he had tried and the team let him continue.
      It was too obvious too. They shouldn’t have done it at all though.

  112. This is the only way that Alonso wins races right now.

    The British comments are nonsense, in fact if this had happened with McLaren I doubt they would get away without a penalty, whilst with Ferrari we all know what’s gonna happen.

    1. It has happened with McLaren, and they have gotten away without penalty.

      MS|Ayrton has even linked to one of the race reviews where it happened, a couple of posts above yours.

  113. They have been summoned by the FIA..

  114. Stuart Hotman
    25th July 2010, 16:03

    I have no problem with Ferrari manipulating the race to let Alonso win, but please spare us the blatent lies and just say it how it is. In my opinion, team orders should be allowed, but we must play by the rules which are ‘no team orders’.

    I seem to remember Lewis was disqualified in Australia 09 for ‘misleading’ the stewards. Now surely Ferrari have misled the stewards. I must stress that I don’t believe they should get a penalty, but we want to see teams treated with equality.

    Alonso is the first man to point out when he feels the race is being manipulated, though he should really keep quiet now this is the second race I can think where he has won by pure manipulation (remember Singapore 08).

  115. Mateuss, you obviously did not look at the times during the race. Last laps was difficult to have a clean lap for everybody

  116. I voted “yes” because I do think they deserve a mild penalty, something like a fine or so. Once again the regulations are incomplete by the way. The rule is clear, the penalty is not. They should change that.

    On the other hand I do understand the team order 100% because a. Alonso was clearly faster, especially on the hard compound, b. Vettel was catching him, c. Ferrari really really really needed that result, d. it´s a track on which overtaking is really hard to do. e. They already almost spun off together when the first backmarkers came along, had a bit of a scare there.

    Suppose your the team owner, what would you do? Would you REALLY let Alonso get closer to Massa, then do a high-risk move with a high possibility that they both crash? No. Would you let Alonso defend Vettel so Massa, who didn’t have the pace, could pull away with the risk of having the driver who is way ahead in the championship scoring little points since Vettel might do a high risk move on him? Besides, Massa can’t pull away that quick so there would have been a possibility that Vettel would have caught both and that would mean a 2-3. So No. Or would you let Alonso pass rather safe so Massa could stick with him and the both of them could get away?

    This is why I don’t want the end-result to change. I understand the decision 100%, it’s just that they did it in a very very very ugly and obvious way. But when you think about it, Button didn’t attack Hamilton when the latter had to save fuel, Hülkenberg didn’t make a foolish move on Rubens etc. EVERY team has teamorders, it’s that simple. This one was obvious but we probably only hear 0.5% of the teamorders that are given.

  117. It doesn’t matter how you phrase it – “code 14”, “cedez le passage”, “let him through, Felipe”, “the zebra cries at midnight”, or “he is faster than you”.

    If the MEANING is “give up the win” then that is (a) against the rules, (b) horrifically unsporting, (c) utterly soulless, given the anniversary of Massa’s accident.

    Eddie Jordan was right – the chance to watch a genuine, unorchestrated race was stolen from the fans today, just as it was in Austria 2002 and Singapore 2008 with Piquet Junior. I only lost a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon, but if I had paid hundreds of euros to go and watch it, I’d be very angry indeed at Ferrari’s cynical actions.

  118. I`ve lost count of the number of times I`ve had to read Ferrari supporters trying to explain the actions of the team, taking into account pratice an qualifying I`ve spent 7.5 Hrs watching something that ended in a poorly staged overtake. I`am just glad I was watching this on my own as I`ve grown tired off trying to justify F1 to my friends, yet another sad day for F1.

  119. Lots of people saying here it is a team sport, and because of that what ferrari did isn’t so bad. Well let me ask you, what good did this do to the team ferrari? They got exactly the same amount of points they would’ve gotten otherwise. This is only in alonsos advantage.

  120. This seemed so obvious that I’m quite confident they should be able to have enough evidence to prove that this was a team order.

    Very consequent comments from Michael Schumacher on German TV, by the way. As if he didn’t know about article 39.1 of the regulations.

  121. If Ferrari won’t be punished, F1 shouldn’t be called SPORT but ENTERTAINMENT SHOW.
    Mostly I am annoyed by Ferrari guys comments, do they think fans are stupid or something.

  122. funny there are so many supporters for Ferrari writing in this forum yet 80% feel they should be penalized.

    Should Ferrari get a penalty for ordering Massa to let Alonso pass?

    * Yes (80%, 953 Votes)

    the truth is they know themselves that Ferrari should have let Massa win and feel ashamed.
    i am a McLaren fan and was looking forward to seeing Ferrari doing well in this race and was overjoyed when they managed 1st an 2nd from the start, and then they go and do this.
    dam it, why cant they just race and win in style?????

    1. let he cast the 1st stone….

      No one/team is perfect…

      1. And therefore a blatant contravention of the rules should go unpunished? By the same logic, noone should ever be punished for anything…

  123. i think the poll should be more of…. ‘Should Team Orders be allows?’

    Maybe the rules back then warranted the ban but times have changed… Cos to watch a team sport not working as a team is like saying soccer is played by individuals and not a team?

    F1 is a team of 2 cars… so two drivers… so is F1 about the respective racing team? or is it about the racing drivers?

  124. Massa was much slower, I don’t see any problem to let pass a faster Alonso. Ferrari is a team, so where is the problem?

    1. that it is against the regulations!!!

      1. I thought F1 was about racing?, if Alonso was faster He should of been able to overtake.

      2. this is a stupid rule that also others teams bypass(speaking about fuel limit for example)

    2. Not that much slower over the whole race, and Massa defended really well a couple of times – all part of racing to have to fight for a position win. Maybe Alonso really meant the Spanish GP “I like being given points by a competitors bad fortune” bad form after all. I hoped he was joking a bit.

      1. Alonso has been faster 0.2 – 0.4 seconds during the whole gp (watch the times in qualifications, for example)

  125. Nw i finally y alonso say he doesn’t need others to fail for him to win… he got his teammate to be ordered around as he wish..

    Nw alonso is involved again in race-fixing, first in S.G08, and now again. It makes it hard to not link him to possible involvement in these race fixing? Surely he might have a part to play in it.

    Felipe Baby gonna cry soon.

    Now, this is what ferrari should call : ” MANIPULATED RACE” -. I wonder what will the italian media say huh.

    Perhaps they should write ” Heroic Ferrari 1-2 in germany, FIA respects ferrari’s team-order”

    1. surely you haven’t seen Italian TV for the last two hours and a half…

      1. I haven’t – what does it say? Apart from being rightfully happy that Ferrari finally got a 1-2 again and showed their speed all weekend?

  126. Jhonnie Siggie
    25th July 2010, 16:09

    I think the claim that Vettel would have caught up to the Ferraris and potentially ruin both of their races is absolutely ridiculous. In the end the data showed that both Ferraris were clearly faster and Vettel didn’t have a serious chance. We all understand basic mathematics and why a team would want to favor one driver. Ferrari clearly favored one driver today and expect the fans to accept and regurgitate their talking points. I am personally just wondering if Ferrari were cowed into this by the petulant Spaniard. Maybe they are wondering if he’ll pickup his toys and leave early as he did while Lewis was cleaning his clock at Mclaren.

    1. I find this Vettel was pushing thing odd. After Turkey, Ferrari must have seen how well that didn’t work for RBR as a party line? And Vettel was further back than Hamilton in Turkey.

  127. It’s all well being ‘Quicker’ all weekend, It’s another getting past another car in RACE CONDITIONS as was obviously apparrent for the first 2/3 of the race Farrari ARE CHEATS no 2 ways about it.

  128. In a parallel universe, Alonso was leading the race over Massa and the radio message was to Alonso: “Today is the anniversary of Felipe’s accident. Can you confirm you understood that message.”

    Of course, if Vettel had stuck to the clean side of the track at the start, neither Ferrari would have passed him.

  129. If we think about this, Ferrari are cornered, aren’t they? What they can do now? Confess? – Penalty for 39.1! Keep lying?-We saw how the stewards liked that in Australia 2009!

  130. MAY BE THE stewards will do something for once that all F1 FANS want…to invalidate this race and punish ferrari…
    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85539

  131. well done ferrari,they deserved this result,maybe not under these ways,massa did brilliant but was slow,his pace ment vettel was catching so quickly,if massa never let alonso passed i think vettel may of won,mclaren have done plenty of rule breaking and i always feel its forgotten about,is it cos its a british team maybe,i hope the result doesnt change,maybe get fined for sure but its good to see another team at the top,3 teams fighting for the title at the last race would be so exciting….

  132. The thing is Fernando Alonso is ALWAYS penalized for pathetic little things and why the hell should he have his points taken away from him for havin a wicked weekend????? Alonso done nothing wrong he didnt order Massa to move out the way!!!! what was he spose to do stop as well and go “no go on mate you stay first” knowin that Vettel would have jumped on that and past the pair!!!!

    1. Actually, he might have been urging the team to have him let pass Stacie. A false start in China isn’t so pathetic, and everyone knows that a clear cutting corner to overtake is a drive-through since Spa 2008, where Ferrari were adamant HAM was punished rightly, even when the rule wasn’t so clear back then as it is now. Alonso bad luck with SC (well, in Monaco he profited) was sad to see, but that doesn’t let him off the hook here.

      1. The rule in ’08 wasn’t clear. Erm, at the risk of being flamed i must say this, to McLaren fans mostly.

  133. I’m expecting a fine, maybe a grid pen at the Hungaroring.

  134. Ferrari drivers points obtained at this race should be removed at once.

    Ferrari team points should be removed since the season beginning.

    This bizarre methods must stop and hard punishment will get them off.

    1. Yeah and Ferrari’s drivers, mechanics, engineers and their families should be sentenced to jail…

      1. Yes, clearly it is much worse than running a rebadged Ferrari in championship :P

  135. Funny thing is Red Bull look better now : there two drivers did lock wheel by trying to pass didn’t thay (yeah ok, previous orders…) I mean, we followers did get the action we were looking for. I don’t really care about the team orders, it’s just a shame we were not entertained by a nice fight between Massa Alonso and Vettel.

    Afterthought : How on Earth can Alonso ALWAYS manage to be embroiled in every F1 scandal and never know anything? Incredible.

    Las thought : what does Italian TV say about it?

    1. How on Earth can Alonso ALWAYS manage to be embroiled in every F1 scandal and never know anything? Incredible.

      One word… “media”. Then again, he’s put himself in a hard corner more than once, which is really not to my liking. However, ladies and gentlemen, this is a racing driver and not a diplomat.

  136. MacademiaNut
    25th July 2010, 16:24

    Looks like Ferrari has been summoned by FIA stewards.

    http://www.crash.net/f1/news/161907/1/ferrari_summoned_by_fia_stewards.html

  137. So when McLaren tells Jenson Button catching up on Hamilton to “save fuel” there’s no hubbub, but if Ferrari does it (In a less subtle and far dummer way), it is a disgrace, right? Encoded team orders are a shame, regardless of whether the driver ends up passing the slower team mate or not

    1. Actually there was quite a bit of “hubbub” about that, even if the mess of Red Bull at that race caught most attention. McLaren were, in the end, able to show it reasonably likely that they were indeed fueled very light – leading up to Canada where people were wondering if the light-fueling would lead to penalties because of too low fuel at end of sessions/race.

      1. @bosyber

        Please show a link where it is mentioned that McLaren testified to FIA with level of fuel in their cars after the race in turkey. When you say “reasonably likely”, it means there’s some degree of presumption involved. Well, fuel consumption is a measurable thing, and whatever McLaren had to say in that scenario would have only gotten them in deep. Just like “lie-gate.” Trust me!

        In Canada, most commentators did feel that McLaren stopped a healthy car on track, which is against the regs and should have been penalized. I don’t remember seeing as many folk asking for a penalty.

  138. What we saw today was exactly the same with Hamilton’s repass on Button in Turkey. Only Massa made it more obvious to protest the situation.

    they are all team orders.there are always team orders. Yes this is boring and disgusting, but please nobody, dont pretend to be seeing this for the first time in F1.

    about Ferrari being investigated,I am afraid there will be consequences if Ferrari is given a penalty,after Valencia and Silvestone

  139. Booooo Fernando Boooooo Ferrari

    What a shame . And even more a shame when Alonso says that I dont know what happened and Bob Saying Massa Shifted 3 gears atonce.

    I sincerly hope the people who booed Schumi on 2002 Austria Podium Booed Fernando on the poddium today as he sis not deserve a win what so ever. Atleast Schumi wsa earnest in handing the trophy to Rudens and Admitting it.

    Bob and Ferrari are making the fans , stewards and everyone looks like a fool by first saying DO U UNDERSTAND , then Sorry and then shifted 3 gears at once.

    It was Massa’s real good comeback. He was really lying low after the accident last year and was the best chance to prove he is there. But then Alas… Fernando BOOOOOOO for saying first saying this is ridiculous and then saying i overtook him when i got an opportunity as if nothing happened……

    BOOOO Ferrari…..

    I Sincerely hope stewards give the victory back to Massa and penalize Ferrari. Otherwise they are making themselves look like fools in the eyes of the world and making themselves Ferrari’s Puppets.

  140. I Follow F1 to see car racing, not red tape decisions about who should win. Dignity is more important than victory. Only the weak thinks the opposite. Fernando and Ferrari actions are a shame for sports, not only for F1. If Fernando is a good driver he would not need Ferrari help, if he is not, he would not deserve it. Anyway, this is about honesty, sport spirit and dignity. And he has showed more than once he is weak in all these aspects of human development. I hope FIA follows the rule, in a ruthless way.

  141. Have a look at this for a lesson in “Hypocrisy 101”

    Horner: Ferrari move clear team orders
    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85534

    1. Enrique Miguel
      25th July 2010, 17:30

      I don´t believe Horner is the right man to make such a statement after what has happened in his own team with his drivers…..

  142. It shows to all world how these people are: Italian Ferrari is coward, Spanish Alonso is Incompetent.That is the Formula 1 circus: the clows are those who watch.

  143. It shows to all world how these people are: Italina Ferrari is coward, Spanish Alonso is Incompetent. That is the Formula 1 circus but the clows are those who watch. Congratulations to English team for their ethic behavior. All support to Hamilton.

  144. Sooo much hypocrisy in the F1 media world right now, it’s just disgusting ….. Well, that’s all for now. Off to enjoying the well deserved 1-2 victory !!! :P

  145. If Alonso wants to beat Massa, he should try being ahead of him on the race track in the first place. It says everything about Alonso’s attitude that he shouts “this is ridiculous” down the radio because he can’t pass Massa, as if it’s somebody else’s fault.

    I hope Massa wins in Hungary.

  146. I remember some words by Ron Dennis in 2007: … we were racing Fernando!

    Those were times when there was no team order in McLaren for championship contenders. I miss them.

    1. I really lol’d myself with this one mate :D

      Yes, i miss the times from ’07 :P

  147. MASSA IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH, TODAY WILL MAKE THE CHAMPIONSHIP SO MUCH BETTER.

    MSC WAS RIGHT, THE TEAMS ARE THERE FOR THE TROPHY, THE END PRIZE!

    1. Fans are there also for a good race. So are TV stations, usually. Maybe even the bookmakers are in it for an un-team-ordered race.

  148. felipe massa fan
    25th July 2010, 17:04

    i am disgusted with ferrari massa drove the race of his life in any case ferrari probably wont win the drivers title so why didnt they let felipe win
    alonzo should be disqualified and massa given the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    massa was much quicker than alonzo throughout the race and he stated in an interview that he deserved the win

    but i am pleased that massa is being very professional about it unlike THE SHORT FUSED FERNANDO ALONZO WHO COULDNT PASS MASSA BEFORE THE TEAM ORDER

    REALLY F***KD OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!

  149. Enrique Miguel
    25th July 2010, 17:10

    Oh well, when Enzo Ferrari lived he always said that he did not care which of the pilots won as long as a Ferrari car won, today that is no longer the case, I wonder what would il commendattore say if he were alive today….

    Me being a Ferraristi my concern is that a Ferrari wins no matter the driver.

  150. Apparently, $100k fine for Ferrari but the result stands. Also, it’s been referred to the World Motorsport Council.

  151. Are we to understand that, in Hungary, if Alonso leads from Massa, and Massa is quicker, and a Vettel or a Hamilton is gaining at an insignificant rate, Alonso will be informed of this and will make a “driver decision” to let Massa through, ensuring a Ferrari wins the race?

    Maybe somebody should have asked Stefano this question.

    The fact is, Massa held off Vettel, if Alonso was faster than Massa he would surely have been able to do the same. Ferrari are lying through their teeth, they know it, we know it, the FIA know it.

    Ferrari manipulated the result, they broke the rules, they must lawfully be given a penalty, end of, surely?

  152. Ferrari fined R$ 100,000 by stewards and referred to WMSC: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85552

  153. So far all Ferrari have got for today is a $100,000 fine, chances are they’ll just get a slap on the wrist and move on. With Todt as a potentially biased President we’ve no hope of having this injustice dealt with.

    1. now change Ferrari to McLaren and think about Canada 2010

  154. If I was Massa I’d have pulled my car into the garage and stopped, and say “I thought I wasn’t allowed to race. If you’re not gonna let me drive to win a race, I’m not gonna give you any constructor points.”

  155. I said it would have been ironic for Massa to win today, and I was almost right.

    However Ferrari weren’t going to let such a brilliant turnaround (from near-death crash to victory in 12 months exactly) happen. Very disappointed for him.

  156. In my opinion, a blatent breaking of the current rules, i watched the BBC forum after the race & have read quite a few of the comments on here, so understand the various relevant points made.

    It was totally Ferrari shooting themselves in the foot unneccesarily, not just the move itself but their response to questions afterwards. I think they deserve, at the very least the loss of team points for this race, post race neither driver seemed happy about the situation, so i think it would be a shame to penalise either driver.

    I was intending to go to todays race, but finances spoilt my plan, until the incident i was feeling sad that i wasn’t there, now i’m glad i didn’t waste my money.

    I also have a mate who’s going to Hungary next weekend for his first ever GP, when i spoke to him yesterday he was really looking forward to it, asked me a few questions & i told him not to miss today as it would help him understand a few bits. I’m sure its put a downer on what should have been a great experience. I’m sure he’s not the only one going to their first GP who’s going to be dubious after today about the upcoming race(s).

  157. Every team has it’s orders, they spend millions of dollars to take their name to top spot in f1 . It would be stupid to see two team mates fight it out and the team loses in the end.
    It’s only when Ferrari does it everyone has a problem.
    Wat was disgusting was the way alonso celebrating the victory as though he had overtaken him on track and as if he earned a victory. I ve really lost that bit of respect I had for him for sometime now.

  158. rob smedley: sorry?!?! tut —– how about a bit of discretion like the other teams…. then u dont get found out!

  159. I think if Felipe was ahead in points, Ferrari would not have asked him to let Alonso through.
    Felipe let Kimi through in Brazil when no one could have touched him, Kimi let Felipe through the next year…

    It happens all the time – in the context of a race its not nice, but in the context of the entire season – maybe more justifiable.

  160. I am surprised at where this is escalating to. I have been watching F1 for decades as have many of you here. If I could get you all into a room I would ask you all to raise your hand if you’ve never seen this before. The only problem I have with this is that maybe it wasn’t late enough in the season to ask Massa to give up his race win…and even then i’m not sure as all the other incidents (in 2008 and 2007 especially) had more direct and instant influences on the drivers championship.

    We can’t vilify this instance and not vilify all the others. There was Lewis and Heiki a couple times in 2008…Lewis went on to win by 1 point. There was a gift from Massa to Kimi that enabled Kimi to win by a point in 2007. ‘Hold station’, ‘save fuel’, ‘Jenson will not pass you’…its been happening all the time. We all know it, the FIA knows it, all the commentators mention it. If you don’t see it as being the same then you’re probably just blinded by your affinity to your preferred team. The only thing Ferrari are really guilty of is being stupid about how it was done. Smedley was as inconspicuous as a military tank in a supermarket parking lot.

  161. Why did Massa let Alonso pass?

    He should had answered to the question:
    “I understood, but I’m good with it”

    He shouldn’t slow down and continue and now he would be an hero for not complying with the given information. Because that was not an order, that was just information and Massa did what he wanted with it.

  162. I would really love for somebody to really tell me whats so different today (Smedley’s comments aside) from all the other times when we’ve seen team mates yielding to each other blatantly or questionably. As bad as I feel for Massa, I remember him almost winning in 2008 because of Kimi’s ‘gift’, so he is not the victim we all want to make him out to be.

    In my mind, the worst thing I’ve seen in F1 is having 2 drivers in the thick of the fight for the world championship and ordering bits off one man’s car onto the other’s (New Slogan: Red Bull Gives You Wings…Then Takes Them Back).

  163. ok first the passion in me…and alot of anger.

    massa….no pride nor self respect.shame on you
    alonso…joins your singapore crime sheet..atleast no one would ever get hurt today.
    ferrari..you are a disgrace to your country, your history and to f1 fans who “go racing” either via an armchair, stand or cockpit.

    the reality..
    massa…you will never now be a f1 drivers champion and will end uo like rubens…bitter
    alonso….really, i’ve been on here fighting your corner – the senna of the generation a great driver a proper racer…it’s gone today for what is a few points, very litle when looking back.
    ferrari – everything good about f1 you seem to destroy you will not turnthis sport ito a joke again.

    1. gaz…alonso was never the senna of the generation,u need 2 be able 2 overtake people 2 get an accolade like dat,and as we saw last weekend he hasnt got dat in his repetoire,lewis is the senna of this generation,balls of steel,unflinchingly aggresive,overtakes 4 fun,thats wat its all about!!!

  164. I think everyone should chill a little, this is not new, just let it go, Felipe has no chance in the championship, there is a lot of money for the title.

    I totally agree with what happened, this is a team sport, did you all forget?

    1. Maybe i’m idealistic, but i happen to think this is a race…and that racers should be racing…then again i could be mistaking, this could be pure business, but then we don’t need any regulations, any ethics, let’s strap them in a cars and let them kill each other with rockets and lasers, that will be more entertaining than watching one red car slow down to be overtaken by another red car…

  165. Seriously I think the star of this years Grands Prix is the public radio airing on TV, from Hamiltons “do you want me to race these guys or what?” or Webbers “Not bad for a number 2 driver!” and now “Alonso has a faster car, do you understand” its been fascinating.

    I love in the post race interviews the commentator asked Alonso about the pass without telling that radio announcements were broadcast publicly and then revealed them when questioning Massa, the two different answers would have been embarrassing to Ferrari.

  166. The simple fact is, Ferrari team made it too obvious.

  167. “Today we see a manipulated race” words of Alonso at Valencia…. What we see today at Hockenheim? As a Ferrari fan im hurt and disgusted / “Hoy vimos una carrera manipulada” palabras de Alonso en Valencia…. Que vimos hoy en Hockenheim? Como hincha de Ferrari estoy dolido y muy enojado.

  168. Felipe should do the same thing that Reuteman did so many (many many) years ago at Williams. He read the order but never give the position and win the race.

  169. Ferrari should be ripped of the WC, & they should do something with the team orders.Whether they let team-orders to happen or they stop that by giving huge penalty to the team who does that.

    YES I think Ferrari should get a penalty for ordering Massa to let Alonso pass.

  170. What a bunch of B.S. To screw Massa in this way, on the 1 year anniversary of his terrible accident, is just uncalled for. Ferrari should have their result reversed at the very least.

  171. And dont forget Alonso’s much earlier call to the pitts where he was complaining about Massa not letting him pass and asking the team to interfere. The pit then told Alonso to be patient, it was too early to make the call.

  172. The one thing that people cant see past, forget the team orders for a moment…
    If Alonso was so much faster, and wants to go on to win the WDC, then surely to do so and desrve it he should have RACED for the win yesterday.
    For me at least, if by some chance he does win, I will always think it was by cheating and not a clear win. And I suspect many others will too
    No matter what the final outcome, F1 will never be sthe same again. And both Ferrari & Alonso will never be held in quite the same light anymore…

  173. I have read the F1 biographies of Caracciola, Nuvolari, Moss, Fangio, Collins from eras past and have loved F1 since a boy. Tongue in cheek, Massa should have hammered the brakes after the hairpin and have Alonso run up his rear, taking them both out. Or, he could have replied “so tell Fernando to pass me if he so fast”. Or Smedley could have radioed “they have told me to order you to allow Alonso to pass you, but I am unable to agree”. A pox on ALL their houses. A fine is inconsequential. Ferrari and both their drivers should be made to sit out the next event and FIA should reverse the finishing order. For those of you, ATB included, who suggest that these actions of team finishing orders is acceptable my wish is that you take up synchronized swimming or ballroom dancing as an alternative to F1 “racing” for you really are not competitive people. A blight on the sport, sad, sad, sad.

  174. Diana, that quote is from Grantland Rice, American sports write in the early 1900’s.

    Though I prefer Oscar Wilde’s:

    “It is not whether you win or lose, IT IS HOW YOU PLACE THE BLAME”

    The again, Vince Lombardi (American football coach) said:

    “WINNING is the ONLY thing (that matters around here)”

    In the F1 farce yesterday NONE of the participants get it.

  175. Was not the first time that Massa let Alonso pass. In China GP, to avoid a crash at box entrance, Massa alow Alonso to pass by him and have to wait Alonso in the pit stop. I´m glad that Massa just let Alonso to pass by him, thist time, after a team order. Get close in one thing, pass is another.

  176. What perhaps the the teams need to be able to do is to publicly announce before a race – any race be it the 1st of the season or partway through the season that they will now be backing a particular driver so then people know what to expect.
    If Ferrari had been able announce before this race “Alonso is the driver we are giving No1 status for the rest of the season” no one would have been surprised to see Massa lift off and let Alonso through.

    We’ve seen in earlier season teams having a driver line up with a clear 1-2, Alonso and Piquet, Piquet and Fabi, Senna and Nakajima, Senna and Johnny Dumfries, Schumacher and Rubens/Irvine. They could all have stated at the start of the season that they’d be doing the best to favour Driver1 throughout the season.
    Then for the likes of this season you’d be able to have RedBull or McLaren come out with 4/5 races to go and say ‘Given current standings they’d be backing Mark or Seb, or Lewis or Jenson to help them win the drivers title for the rest of the season or until they were out of the running’

  177. alonso ts a spoilt brat who has zero respect 4 his fellow drivers/team mates,he’s a cheat,and is nowhere near as talented as people think he is,4 godsake its not about him being quicker,if f1 was jus about being quick red bull n vettel would be leading both championships,some deluded people r missing the point,anytime he comes up against competiton alonso folds,and he will NEVER be considered as 1 of the greats as a result,how dare he do that 2 massa after wat that boy has been tru,n if massaknows wats good 4 him he should sabbotage the ferrari challange 4 rewarding his 10year loyality wid a humilating slap in the face,as any1 wid a brain knows,gettin close 2 sum1 is 1 thing,passing is where is real skill comes in,n the honest brutal truth is alonso lacks that level of ability,and he himself deep down inside knows this

  178. and if ferrari know wats good 4 them they’l start looking 4 a genuine top driver who wont end up draggin their team deep down in2 the gutter,n gradually ease alonso out of that team…alonso is bad 4 f1..period!!,all the other 23 drivers all have a level of mutual respect 4 each other which is how it should be,alonso jus arrogantly believes he has the god given right 2 be number 1 when in truth(as lewis proved in his 1st year in f1)alonso was lucky 2 win 2 titles when the field wasnt as competitive as it is now,how any1 wid any sense can rate that guy is beyond me..real champions go out there n handle their buisness n come out on top,im jus glad he’s being exposed 4 wat he is…A FRAUD,and in 15-20years from now everybody would finally realise this…the guy makes me sick 2 my stomach,and he needs 2 be gently eased out of f1 4 the good of the sport..its jus beyond a joke,he’s a disgrace,4 all alonso fans,do urselfs a favour n follow/support real racers..i.e,vettel,rosberg,hamilton,button,massa,webber..take ur pick,who have real dignity n respect 4 their fellow pros

  179. This is hypocrisy SAXON

  180. I thought something like this would be the most likely outcome, although I wouldn’t have been surprised if the fine had increased or some sort of suspended sentence had been handed out.

    I don’t think any punishment such as docking points or a ban was ever likely to happen.

    If Ferrari had been given a big penalty I would have thought they could have successfully appealed the decision.

    They could say that when they told Massa that Alonso was faster than him they were just keeping Massa informed of what was happening in the race just as they would do if it was any other driver behind him who was quicker, and that it was Massa’s decision to let Alonso through.

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