Champion of Champions: Jack Braham vs Lewis Hamilton

Jack Brabham vs Lewis Hamilton

Champion of ChampionsPosted on | Author Keith Collantine

Champion of Champions: Jack Braham vs Lewis Hamilton

Jack Brabham and Lewis Hamilton both won the world championship in their second full season in the sport.

These are also drivers who spent a long time with the same team. Brabham only ever drove for cars entered by himself or Cooper (with one exception) and Hamilton has spent the first four years of his F1 career with McLaren.

Obviously a key point of difference between the two is the lengths of their careers: Brabham retired after 16 seasons in the sport, Hamilton is heading into his fifth.

Another striking difference between the two is the difference in reliability they enjoyed. The cars of the fifties and sixties Brabham drove were generally far less reliable – particularly in the years when he was developing his own.

Hamilton has the lowest car failure rate of any world champion. But if you factor out car breakages their adjusted average points score per race are quite close as you can see in the table below.

Which of these drivers should go through to the next round of the Champion of Champions? Vote for which you think was best below and explain who you voted for and why in the comments.

Lewis Hamilton Lewis Hamilton
Jack Braham Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, Interlagos, 2010
Titles 1959, 1960, 1966 2008
Second in title year/s Tony Brooks, Bruce McLaren, John Surtees Felipe Massa
Teams Cooper, Brabham McLaren
Notable team mates Bruce McLaren, Dan Gurney, Denny Hulme Fernando Alonso, Heikki Kovalainen, Jenson Button
Starts 123 71
Wins 14 (11.38%) 14 (19.72%)
Poles 13 (10.57%) 18 (25.35%)
Modern points per start1 7.63 12.31
% car failures2 34.96 2.82
Modern points per finish3 11.74 12.67
Notes Back-to-back titles for Cooper in 1959 and 1960 Finished on podium on debut and won his sixth race
Then became only driver to win a championship in his own car Became champion in his second season after narrowly missing rookie title win
Runner-up in 1967 to team mate Denny Hulme Formerly the youngest ever world champion
Bio Jack Brabham Lewis Hamilton

1 How many points they scored in their career, adjusted to the 2010 points system, divided by the number of races they started
2 The percentage of races in which they were not classified due to a mechanical failure
3 How many points they scored in their career, adjusted to the 2010 points system, divided by the number of starts in which they did not suffer a race-ending mechanical failure

Round one

Which was the better world champion driver?

  • Jack Brabham (51%)
  • Lewis Hamilton (44%)

Total Voters: 784

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Read the F1 Fanatic Champion of Champions introduction for more information and remember to check back tomorrow for the next round.

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Images ?é?® Peter Denton (Brabham), www.mclaren.com (Hamilton)

380 comments on “Jack Brabham vs Lewis Hamilton”

  1. 2,82% car failures… That’s incredible!

    Also, first!

    1. I know, and to think that many of the Lewis haters attack him for being a car breaker…..

      1. Not being a Hamilton hater or anything but he does crash them quite a bit, maybe less so than before tho.

      2. jsw11984 (@jarred-walmsley)
        24th January 2011, 18:01

        Car failures is mechanical failure and does not count the times Lewis sticks the car in the wall. Having said that I still voted for him, and this is by far the closest battle we’e had so far

      3. Nice spin Andy. From lemon to lemonade. Normaly one would say that having close to zero car failures is something to qualify a driver’s achievements – one wonders what he would have achieved if he had had as many failures as expected (the average). You know, many people tend to think that these things are down to luck. But instead, you prefer to imply that the lack of car failures is due Lewis’ talents! Beautiful! But remember, next time his engine blows up or a suspension brakes, you have then to accept that it is not bad luck: it is his fault.

        1. errr ok….

    2. Those coopers were rockets though. They were hugely dominant. Besides Even when the car failures are accounted for Hamilton still has more points per finish. I am going with Hamilton on this, he never had a huge car advantage and he had fierce competitors in Ferrari and the FIA in 2008.

    3. I remember Lewis only have 3 car failures.

      1. Abu Dhabi 2009 (engine?)
      2. Spain 2010 (wheel bearing)
      3. Hungary 2010 (driveshaft)

      And that’s it. All other races he either finished or crashed out due to driver error.

      One wonders if he takes better care of his car than Kimi, or if it’s McLaren learning their lesson from Kimi.

      1. Or maybe it’s because Adrian Newey doesn’t work for McLaren anymore :D

        1. Or that Stepney and Coughlan were found guilty.

          The car failures suddenly stopped when Coughlan was fired.(suspended) Newey had left already after 2005 season. 2006 season was full with odd car failures.

      2. @Journeyer
        Abu dhabi 09 was brake failure? :-?
        i remm he drove off the road cause he couldnt stop it? and the black smoke from his wheel?

        1. Brake trouble is what formula1.com lists as the reason Hamilton retired at Abu Dhabi ’09

          http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2009/823/6699/

        2. That’s why engine had a question mark beside it: I wasn’t sure. :D

    4. miguelF1O (@)
      24th January 2011, 17:58

      like i always say he almost never has car failures despite a few last year he won alot so young cause of his talent but do not forget the reliability

    5. How close this poll is! I voted for Lewis, even not being a fan of him, because he is in my opinion one of the best drivers of today and even of all time. He is just fast and makes frequent passes. Having 52 races less than Brabham but having the same wins and even more poles is just a demonstration of his talent that I feel will bring him more successes in future. (But let’s hope Ferrari will always beath him!)

      1. Very close poll, I voted for Brabham.

        Come on Jack!!!

        1. I think this just proves how bias the readers of this site are.

          Keith, no matter what you say, this poll has proven all those people who said this site is bias towards the British drivers right.

          But ofc, you will just post a link and continue denying it.

          1. How does it prove it?

            When one that is ahead in championships, and anoher is ahead in stats, it is bound to be close. How in the world does that prove anything?

          2. It’s not bias towards British drivers, I think it’s bias towards modern era drivers.

            I went with Brabham even though I have massive respect for Lewis and what he’s done so far in his F1 career. It’s just too early for him, he’s in the sport for only 4 seasons. And Sir Jack is … well, Sir Jack, one of all time greats. :D

          3. So let me get this straight. AUSTRALIAN Jack Brabham is currently leading BRIT Lewis Hamilton and this proves that the BRITISH are biased? I would suggest you look up the words ‘fact’ and ‘opinion’ in the dictionary, because you seem unable to understand that there is a difference between them.

          4. I Agree with infy. For those who are saying that the Australian is leading the Brit, the bias is being shown in the poll being very close. If there wasn’t bias, Brabham has to win this by a mile… not close as it is now, how can you compare Lewis against Brabham and call it “close” when Jack a 3WDC drove his own cars !!! against a guy that was on the top tier of f1 since he started.
            Thank god Lewis was against Jack in this round so there is no possible way he can pass to the next. (Not even here)

        2. I voted for brabham too. Anyone who can win a championship in their own car gets my vote lol

    6. Old_boy_racer (@)
      24th January 2011, 23:18

      2,82% car failures… That’s incredible!

      I wonder if it would still be so low if he were building the car himself though. I suspect not.

    7. Keith,

      Does car failures only include tyre failure or other mechanical issues forcing him to retire? What about accidents?

      Because 2.82% means only 2 in 71 races.
      * Tyre failure Germany 2007
      * Tyre failure Turkey 2007
      * Gear failure Brazil 2007
      * Accident Spa 2009
      * Gear failure Hungary 2010

      1. Germany 2007 – that was in qualifying
        Turkey 2007 – he still finished the race
        Brazil 2007 – he still finished the race
        Spa 2009 – that wasn’t the car’s fault
        Hungary 2010 – is indeed a car failure. That was included in my count.

        If it’s only 2 in 71, though… I’m guessing Spain wasn’t included because Lewis was still classified. Was Lewis still classified at the end?

        1. It seems that tyre failures don’t count as car problem. That’s kind of bad for Lewis because he had quite a few tyres give-up on him.

    8. How to change vote?? I voted hammy by mistake.

      1. Just voted Brabham for you (really!)

  2. Hamilton. He might’ve won less titles but the rest of the stats outweigh that. That’s the only way to compare the two drivers from two different eras objectively.

    1. I think this is going to be very close! :)

    2. That’s only true if they had more or less equal cars to drive in. Brabham had far more car failures than Hamilton, while Hamilton had one of the best cars during his whole career.

      Without the car failures their points per race are close with Brabham often in a lesser car, so my vote goes to Brabham.

      1. I fear the British bias will seap in. (not saying Aussies aren’t biased…. cough cough one/ten cough cough… there are way more British here

        1. Don’t be a “bias” bore.

          Not everyone is dumb enough to think “ooh, he’s from the same country as me, I’ll vote for him”. I’d wager the vast majority aren’t.

          Besides, non-British users outnumber British users two-to-one on F1 Fanatic.

          1. you don’t need to explain the same stuff to people with half a brain.

          2. but this is so close keith. In this one nationality might have some weight.
            If you look at the titles, jack is the winner, but lewis is so good as an overall package, and have a good ten f1 years in front of him. To tell you the truth this is the first one i am undecided.
            I would say hamilton, for the way he handled alonso in 2007. And i know that alonso is a good match for brabham.

          3. This shouldn’t even be close, Brabham won 3 titles, 1 in his own car, the only person to ever do that. Hamilton has only one 1 title in a car that was at least in the top 2 if not the best car on the grid, hardly amazing stuff.

          4. good one……I’m not a British and I love Lewis..

          5. Well, yes, but to be perfectly honest, this is a lot closer than it should be. IMO, the pairing is on a similar scale to Raikkonen-Stewart, but the voting… well, hasn’t.

            It’s no one’s fault, Keith, it’s just how things work out.

          6. miguelF1O (@)
            24th January 2011, 18:01

            keith like i´ve said you cant really know if you are bias there are british that dont like Ham but there are other that love him, schumacher is an dirty driver but because he was on ferrari i couldnt say that for many years,lewis is also a dirty driver a very sneeky guy but nontheless a great driver

          7. True Keith, but if you look at the poll you’ll be amazed to find that it’s neck and oversized neck which is quite amazing given the facts.

            I’m not trying to bore, I’m just pointing out that the British Media is flogging British drivers are brilliant and it is having a rather large effect on the public. While I want Brabham to win, it’s not because I’m an Aussie, it’s because he has won with his own car, retired more than 1/3 of the time, only had a championship contending car 4 times, taking 3 and won 1 race in 1 other year.

            Hamilton, like Raikkonen has always pretty much been in a top car. 3/4 season Hamilton has been challenging down the last race. the 4th season he won races. During his championship year his teammate was a midtier driver.

            Facts and facts and the mere fact that it is as close as this suggests that many are voting with their hearts over minds

          8. Keith if there wasn’t bias the poll would be 644 Brabham vs 0 Hamilton. It is now 344 against 300. Read the comments on why people votes for Hamilton and you will understand why the bias comment arises every time Ham is around.

        2. Being a sport fan is all about bias. Given that there’s no algorythm that I’m aware of to actually determine who is the greatest champion, all of these are, in part, about which champion has garnered enough ‘bias’.

          I say Hamilton, because I’m biased. And I’m not even British.

        3. jsw11984 (@jarred-walmsley)
          25th January 2011, 8:05

          Well, I’m Australiasian and I voted for Hamilton, so that does stuff up your bias claim considerable doesn’t it. I agree that it was fantastic that Brabham did what he did and against anyone but Button, Hamilton, Hulme or Schumacher I would vote for him. And in fact I did last time.

          1. Um, you say you rank Button ahead of Hamilton but that you voted for Hamilton last time, but Hamilton was against Button last time.

            Also, I’m guessing by Australasian you mean you are a resident of New Zealand. Could this have anything to do with Hulme being on your list of champions you rate highly?

        4. despite being British and from the same area as Lewis, I voted for brabham. To win 3 titles, including one in a car you built, is simply astonishing. Makes Lewis look like a schoolboy, with a long way to go.

          1. Speckled Jim (@)
            25th January 2011, 9:41

            Brilliant shout Hare.

            Im british too but I also voted for Jack. Its the building of the car that secures it for me. My father built and raced single seaters for years and he had to work so hard at it. Respect to Jack.

      2. So his 2009 car was one of the best? Really? Yes it did win races and did make huge progress as the season went on, but do you think that had nothing to do with him.

        The thing is we are looking at the performances of the drivers not their cars. If you think Brabham was a better champion then by all means vote for him, but give the Jack the respect of voting for his ability as a driver not because he had the less reliable car….

        1. Its what he was able to do with less that is impressive.

        2. The question doesn’t say anything about driving. It asks the question “who was the greatest champion of all time?” Brabham was a constructors champion and a 3 time driving champion. That puts him ahead in the champion stakes as far as I’m concerned. I also don’t recall him being involved in any controversies like lying to stewards.

    3. The ability to overtake seems to impress many (including me), but Hamilton still makes many mistakes. He could have won the title last year, but errors at Monza, Brazil and one more (in front of alonso – korea?) were too much. He is still improving.
      vote for brabham

    4. I voted for Hamilton. I never got to watch Brabham race and Lewis is one of the best from MY era. I’ve seen all the great races Lewis has done and his stats are very impressive.

      Same number of wins as Brabham despite almost half the races too.

      1. If you calculate the times the cars failed its 80 races Brabham could have finished in P1 against 69 races Hamilton could have finished P1. Puts it in perspective a bit. Also, its very likely Hamiltons stats would drop considerably if he founded his own team and built it up back to the top within a couple of years. I’m pretty sure after being double WDC he could have gone to any team but he decided not to and endured over 40 races without a win in his own cars until he was able to strike again.

        My vote goes to Sir Jack. :-)

        1. Also I don’t understand what people mean when they say Hamilton has more competition. I wouldn’t rate Surtees, Rindt, Hulme, Hill, Clark and Stewart lower than the likes of Alonso, Vettel and the rest of todays field (except Schumacher, but well …..).

  3. You kind of expect Lewis to win more titles if McLaren build a car on par with the rest of the competition, he’s shown his class and his talent to make one believe that…so it wont be inconceivable that he retires with as much or more championships than Graham Hill.
    Maybe this is a slightly “fanboyish” type vote but hey, I never saw Hill race, Ive seen Lewis, and Ive seen enough of the fighting overtaker to give this vote to him.

    1. I would have picked Graham Hill…. except for the fact he wasn’t an option….

      Hamilton vs Brabham mate

      1. Woops major brain fade there…oviously meant Brabham. Still not woken up yet

    2. miguelF1O (@)
      24th January 2011, 18:04

      thanks for agreeing that you are a “fanboyish” but i have to say that theres no way to compare this 2 drivers so many years of difference lewis won a champ he didnt deserve and lost one he deserved thats too little of a career thats why i voted brabham

      1. “miquel” sounds very Spanish doesn’t it?

  4. I vote based on what the drivers achieved at this moment.
    And at this moment (24 January 2011), Brabham achieved more than Hamilton, hence receives my vote.

    1. JohnGreen (@)
      24th January 2011, 18:20

      I agree but for me Brabham is better but as a Lewis Fan I had to vote for him

      1. Worse excuse ever. I’m a Alonso fan but I still voted against him because I’m also honest.

  5. Brabham by far.

    A quick comparison makes it all clear and is very much related to these two drivers.

    Hamilton:
    Had a Championship contending car 3/4 seasons.
    Race wining car 4/4 seasons.

    Brabham:
    Had a Championship contending car 4/16 seasons.
    Race wining car 5/16 seasons.

    Brabham has great statistics given that more than 1/3 of all his races ended up in car failuer, and when he could race 3/4 of the time he didn’t have a car up there for a full season, and nearly so for atleast part of the season.

    Hamilton:
    1/3 championship contentions converted (1 threw away, 1 partially his fault, mostly due to others suprerior cars)

    Brabham:
    3/4 championship contentions converted (teammate had the 4th)

    1. I agree, Lewis is good, and he is still improving. But Brabham acheived far more than Lewis did up to now, pretty clear for me.

    2. This goes along with my own train of thought on this. Lewis stats are weighed up by the fact his career is short in championship contending car for 3 out of 4 seasons. In that time the only Championship he won was against Felippe Massa, and Hamilton had to back into that one, not really taking it convincingly.

      Brabham’s career reflects those of the greats, and has achieved more in Championship wins with difficult cars.

    3. Excellent summary of Brabham’s career. Better than what has been written by Keith. I have to vote for Brabham too after reading your comment.

      The only point Hamilton has over Brabham is that he has never been beaten by his team-mate while Brabham lost the title to his team-mate.

    4. Absolutely, Hamilton has yet to dominate a championship and barely managed to win his only one so far. He’s achieved a lot in a short time but hasn’t done enough to win this match up yet.

    5. Thanks guys.

      Hamilton equaled Alonso in 07. Big feat. Then had Kovalianan (midtier) during his championship year (biggest contender suually), then again in 09 and finally a proper teammate in 10.

      Brabham drove the same car as McLaren (the guy who spawned the team) and some chap named Stirling Moss (T51 in 59), and again in 60. IN 66 he was teammates to with to be next yeaer world champion Hulme

    6. Unoc just made my decision a whole lot easier. Brabham it is..

    7. Good point.

  6. Brabham defiently, I would be very surprised and disapointed if Hamilton got rhough on this one. Jack Brabham is such a legend in Formula One. I don’t dislike Hamilton or anything but he’s been in a Mclaren in all his years in F1, has only won one championship by luck in 2008. I’m sure Hamilton will go on to win more titles, but seriously Brabham should get though on this one.

    1. This ‘luck’ thing is really getting old now. Luck doesn’t explain how Hamilton was in a position to win a championship in the first place.

      Luck can win you a one-off competition, but not a 16 round championship.

      And I’m not a Hamilton fanboy – I prefer Button, although Kubica is probably my favourite driver at the moment.

    2. I know, it was very lucky that a driver gambled on dry tyres in wet conditions and then had to drive slowly due to a lack of grip, allowing a driver who was only out of position due to said other driver’s gamble and who had received some questionable penalties from the sport’s governing body, to win the title.

  7. I’m a Lewis fan, but Brabham won 3 WDCs. One of them with his very own team. Lewis might win one or two more championships but with the intensity of the competition these days that’s not guaranteed. Brabham gets my vote.

  8. A hard one!!!
    I voted Jack, because he is in hystory for number of title won. Lewis is one of the most promising drivers I ever seen. He’s so young and quick you need to predict may others championship for him in the future…
    In the future…
    Let’s say Lewis may be the winner of the overall poll in 2020. Not now.

  9. Hamilton. I want to see him against Senna next round

    1. Afraid I can’t see him beating Senna! But I do hope he goes through, I rate him higher than Jack Brabham!

  10. Has to be Brabham I think. He built and took his own car to the championship which is a very impressive feat. I’m a Hamilton supporter and he’s driven some very impressive races but unlike Brabham he’s been in a competitve car his whole F1 career. Look at the % of car failures, think how much better Black Jack’s stats would look if he had a bit more reliability!

  11. wow, as I type this it’s 27-25 in Brabhams favour. How close!? This is going to go down to the wire folks.

  12. I voted for Brabham. I think the achievement of winning a car with your own name is quite a feat. I’m trying to exclude any “What will happen?” for future drivers. Otherwise Vettel would have gained my vote in round 1. Same applies here for Lewis.

    1. I agree with you there. There are so many ‘maybes’. Hamilton may win another championship, maybe two more, maybe he won’t even win another one with all the tough competition. But Jack Brabham has win 3 world championships, one with his won car.

    2. How could a driver win a champ in a car with his name on it nowadays? Joe Mc Laren or Fred Ferrari maybe ? Johny Red Bull?

  13. Braham built a car because those days anyone with a car could pay and enter the race. there wasn’t the crucial competition that we see today. The fight on track, the technological advances and the FIA rules.
    Hamilton has raced against the greats of modern era and beat them, straight from race 1 in Formula 1 and is on the path of becoming an all time great. he’s already a legend just at the dawn of his 5th F1 season. what more to expect? i would give him my vote even against my all time great Ayrton Senna. He’s a true Champion of Champions

    1. you are pushing it there a bit too much romeo. Senna did some things that lewis still have to do. He is looking good, but senna was the fastest for several years.
      I like lewis in the wet and in qualy, but he still is far off when the pressure builds up at the end of the season. He must show that in the near future, or the titles might keep slipping away.

    2. My recommendation: go offline, breathe some fresh air. Then comeback and think again about what you wrote.

  14. I had to give Brabham my vote. 5 or 6 years from now it would probably be a different story.

  15. If Hamilton wins it, that would be the ultimate proof of F1 Fanatic’s viewers bias towards that driver.

    3 titles vs 1

    almost 35 % of failures vs almost 3 %.

    his own team vs nowadays McLaren powerhouse.

    1. Hamilton will probably win this one in 10 years. At the moment, it has to be Brabham.

      And please please please stop going on about bias. It’s so incredibly boring. Note: I be Hamilton fan. I vote Brabham for objective reasons. I have brain. etc…

    2. I am from Poland and I vote for Hamilton. What does it proof? In my opinion he’s the better driver…

      1. I said Hamilton bias, not British bias.

    3. Here are some alternative statistics –

      Brabham won title in 18.75% of his seasons racing. Hamilton has won the title in 25% of his seasons.

      Ipso facto, Hamilton is better.

      Or does it just prove that numbers are meaningless and can be bent to prove whatever point you want to make?

      1. I know the point you’re getting at, but I’d just like to point out that at the same point in their career (4 full seasons), Brabham had won 50%.

    4. Look at the “modern points per finish” numb nuts.. :)

    5. Wow! Appears to be quite a big chip you’re carrying around on your shoulder. Please remember that each us comes with our own point of view made up of a unique set of preferences, perceptions and biases. In my case – sometimes applied with some rational thinking. The diversity on this site is very interesting, always informative, generally entertaining and sometimes quite comical.

      1. I find comical rating higher Hamilton just becuase he’s currently popular rather than on his achievemnts and circumstances of those achievemnts, over a guy who won more in a weaker car.

        1. Again, to make things clear. Im pretty far from giving in to this weir “nationality bias” thing. I just think, that there’s a lot of people who know F1 only from recent years, probably didn’t even hear about Brabham and are infatuated with Hamilton as a celebrity not really paying attention to his achievements in the sport. Looking from a distance, it’s nothing special. He’s not even the youngest ever champion know. He’s just one of many one time champions. A very good driver, one of the very best on CURRENT grid, but that does not entitle him to be placed above all time greats.

          1. You do know that out of the n number of drivers that have raced in F1, n-1 of them are not the youngest WDC? Does Alonso rate less highly because Lewis took his youngest WDC crown. Not one iota. Same thing with Lewis and Vettel. Looking at the sport from a distance, it is not too difficult to see that the driver who tries the most overtakes and on track moves instead of nursing his car all race will be most revered by casual and fanatic supporters of the sport.

    6. Superlike this one!!!

    7. Yes and in 59 and 66 the runners up had more retirements, so what’s your point?

      Like Dobin says below, Hamilton has won the title in 25% of his seasons, Brabham 18.75%.

      Yes Brabham won in his own car, a great accomplishment, but nowadays it simply isn’t feasible for anyone to equal that feat.

      Hamilton has never had a dominant car, 07 and 08 were title contenders and he won 1 and lost 1, 09 was a dog and 10 was competitive but I don’t think quite enough to take the title. It was only through Red Bull’s failure to capitalise only their own car’s potential that the McLaren drivers were contenders.

      While personally I don’t think it was a good idea to include current drivers in this competition, their inclusion means that potential for future results has to be taken into account. Brabham won 3 titles, Hamilton has currently won one and I don’t see it as beyond the bounds of reason that Hamilton won’t equal or better that result.

      Additionally I would have thought that the past vs current comaprison will give a certain benefit to the driver from the past, due to the tendency to remember them through rose-tinted specs. Not that Brabham did some terrible thing that people aren’t remembering but inevitably he will be regarded more fondly.

      So, if you simply take into accoutn their accomplishments to date, I would be inclined to vote for Brabham. However if you also account for Hamilton’s potential for the future, there’s no reason to believe he won’t leave a legacy, like Brabham, as one of the greats. At which point the decision comes down to the finer points and personal taste.

      1. You can’t vote for what might happen in the future or potentially happen…you can only go on reults to date. Hamilton might win 6 world championships, he might take up potato farming, he might build his own racecar and win the world championship, he might have kids with nicole schirliwicker and decide he should become a house husband and open a bed and breakfast, he might win the noble prize for peace. All this means is he ‘might’ one day have a better record than Brabham.

        You can only go on results to date – he stacks up well against most drivers, he’s already a champion that will be remembered for what he’s done in his own right… But against Brabham an outright F1 legend.
        As Job would say in arrested development – COME ON?

      2. I like Lewis too, but Jacques Villeneuve also seemed to be a legend in the making so you can never be certain about the future.

  16. Although I am Hamilton fan I have to go with Brabham, maybe when Hamilton’s career is over and we can give a full appraisal of what he achieves I might rank him higher.

    In all likelihood Hamilton isn’t even halfway through his career at the moment and while he should go on to win more World Championships so far he doesn’t match up to Brabham with his three Championships including one in his own car.

  17. When Hamilton got into the sport, I didn’t like him, now I love the guy, one of the greatest fighters ever.

    But Jack Brabham won 3 WDC, one in his own car! And if he hadn’t been so intent on testing all the new components on his own car in 67, he would have won a fourt title instead of Hulme winning his.

    So no matte rhow much I respect Hamilton, it’s gotta be jack!

  18. This is what the result showed when I voted.

    * Jack Brabham (47 Votes)
    * Lewis Hamilton (46 Votes)

    Total Voters: 93

  19. for me its

    Brabham (52 Votes)
    Hamilton (48 Votes)

    GO BRABHAM GO!!!!!!

  20. Jack Brabham gets this vote easily from me. Hamilton has had a race winning car for all but 10 Races of his carear thats had bullitproof reliability. I have a thought on this. Hamilton’s cars covering his entire carear is similar to the best Brabham ever had, minus first half of 2009. So taking Hamilton could have had 3 titles by now but only just got 1 title. Brabham could of had 4 and only failed in 1967 when two poor results in the US and British grand prix cost him a 4th title. Being such a strong contender in a golden era of drivers in his own car is an achievment that says he is one of the best ever where as Hamilton is just one of the best of the current field

  21. Jack Brabham. Why?: It´s easiest to explain why Hamilton doesn´t belong among the champions of champions:

    First: lying to race stewards in Melbourne 2009 while being the reigning world champion. His lie hurt one of his fellow drivers, Jarno Trulli, but luckily the truth was revealed. Champion of Champions? Nay.

    Second: while apologizing to all — “I would like to say a big sorry to all my fans who have believed in me and years. I have showed you who I am for the past three years. I am not a liar. I am not a dishonest person” — he sounded like in denial. Perhaps not before but now he WAS obviously a dishonest person, a liar. Champion of Champions? Nay.

    A Champion of Champions shouldn´t lie about his actions on the track.

    1. So does that mean Schumacher or Senna could be Champion of Champions despite both having deliberately driven into another car during a race, endangering their own and others lives, but telling a porky means you are a pariah forever?

      This is a genuine question – I don’t see any reason for any of the three drivers to not be able to win because of a couple of isolated incidents.

      And I seem to remember Schumacher insisting he lost control of the car at Monaco…

      1. …he did loose control of his car…arghhh

  22. Dropped in on F1fanatic after quite a while. And realising that I missed a lot.

    What an amazing collection of articles this ‘Champions of Champions’ series is. I curse myself for following the Ashes and one-day cricket all this while.

  23. What Brabham has achieved in the sport far outweighs what Hamilton has done to this point.

    The fact that Brabham won a championship with his own car is a significant achievement. Hamilton is a talented driver, but his successes have been staged managed by a huge team of people behind him who provide him with a championship winning car and the strategy to maximise it. Jack took on most of that work himself and still came out on top.

    1. Sure you never even saw him race! I have DVD’s right here and that guy had rockets for cars. Not even Chapman’s cars could stand up to those coopers. Basically the modern day RB6. I have been watching F1 for donkey’s years so believe me.

      1. good point you make. I was watching the other day the highlights of the 1970 spanish gp, and jack seemed like an amateur. He spun several times over the water the marshalls dropped on the site of a big accident, and still was catching stewart, who was doing a perfect race. Without a doubt had a superior car. Finally when he was putting some real pressure on jackie, he had and engine failure. Not a very smooth drive. Either very impressive.

  24. These is so matched that looks people have forgotten Brahbam is a milestone in RACING history, not only as a pilot but as a team principal. My vote is for him, even when Lewis is a good driver.

  25. Though I voted for Hamilton I think that Brabham may win this round. It will be sad to Lewis going out of it (if he does) as I wish he stays for Round 3.

  26. Brabham. An absolute no brainer.

  27. Gee this is close! I voted Brabham, mostly due to the fact he had about 15 times the amount of car failures as Hamilton has.

  28. Hamilton has had a championship worthy car for 3 seasons. He was in contention to win the championship at the final race for those 3 seasons (albeit an outside chance in 2010) The only one he won was against Massa who almost nobody rates as the best, or even in the top 3, of the current grid. And even that one was thanks to Timo Glock’s cold tyres, in one way or another. Sure, he showed some ballsy driving in ’09 but he had nothing to lose that season.

    Until Hamilton shows he can handle the pressure of being in a long drawn title fight, he’s not going to be a greatest of the great in my book. I voted for Brabham. Winning a championship in a car of your own, outwitting Ferrari and Lotus among others? Respect.

    1. Right now, 145 votes have been cast. 79-66 in Brabham’s favour.

    2. The flaw with your argument in you are comparing 2008 Massa and 2010 Massa. Can you remember any significant events that happened to Massa in this period. One thing springs to mind (keep reading this sentence until the joke grenade detonates).

      1. I know I’m comparing 2008 Massa to 2008 Hamilton. And if I remember correctly at the start of 2008, Raikkonen was the odds-on favourite to retain the title, Alonso was expected to turn Renault around, Hamilton would lead the charge for McLaren and Kubica was the new shining prospect. Massa was good but not great.

        Probably shouldn’t have said “current grid” though.

  29. It’s hard to argue with 3 championships vs. 1. Also, similar to Vettel, Hamilton just hasn’t been in F1 long enough to make his mark to quite the same extent as his opponent in this round. Certainly not to the extent where he’s had an opportunity to set up his own team and take it to a world championship.

    Of course, that last one seems hardly likely to ever happen with any of today’s drivers, given the funds required to do so, but while I’m fairly certain a driver’s job is much more involved these days than it was in Brabham’s days, it doesn’t also mean having to take care of the whole commercial aspect of talking to suppliers etc. that Brabham would have had to. It’s a different kind of involvement and a bit more all-encompassing I should think.

  30. Jack Brabham ought to win this one at a canter, the facts speak for themselves. But we should never discount the ‘Lewis Hamilton factor’ on this site. He would never have got through the first round on ‘F1 Fernaticos’. LOL

  31. Before the ‘Champion of Champions’ I’d have just picked Lewis but now I’ve swung the other way entirely and easily voted Brabham.

    This series (and all of the wonderful comments) has made me appreciate champions I never cared for before and also made me question those I held in admiration.

    Brabham had an awful amount of car failures compared to Lewis so maybe the stats don’t do Jack justice. Jack also built up his own team, got the car how he liked it and won with it. Schumi dragged up Ferrari to suit him and I really value that. Hamilton hasn’t really done anything similar.

    Brabham won multiple titles and it appeared convincing. Hamilton’s title campaign was far more shaky. He had great reliability but made mistakes at Monaco where his team’s quick strategy worked a charm, Bahrain was a mess and Canada was calamatous. He deserved his title there’s no such thing as an undeserving champion but it’s making it hard for me to vote for him when I look at Jack’s 3 campaigns.

    It’s hard because I never saw Jack race but I’ve watched Lewis. Lewis is great now but he can be so much better. At the end of his career I wouldn’t at all be surprised if Lewis had more titles than Brabham but right now I have to vote for Jack.

    1. This series (and all of the wonderful comments) has made me appreciate champions I never cared for before and also made me question those I held in admiration.

      Glad to hear it – that along with picking a worthy number one is the point of devoting a whole month to it!

  32. Brabham is the choice for me 3WDC vs 1. Only WDC that wins the championship in a car bearing his own name, was manage to hold his position at the very top for more than 15 years. Among the WDC, he is arguably the smartest.

  33. Some eloquent arguments in favour of Sir Jack and the fact he was an innovator, a champion winning constructor and a 3 times driver champion makes him one of the very best.
    A true champion,in all senses.
    And that % of mechanical failures compared to Hamilton’s only strengths his case.
    There can’t be a driver in history or on the grid today who wouldn’t want a 2.82% car failure rate; a very fortunate stat indeed!

    1. Look at the points per finish please, sir. That takes out the excuse of car failures.

      1. Actually, no it doesn’t. Nor does it alter the fact that Lewis has never won a championship in a car that he built.

        1. That’s not really a fair point, considering it would cost millions and millions of pounds for Hamilton to set up, establish, build and compete in an F1 car he built himself (or with his own team.) But I agree Brabham should win.

        2. Nor does it alter the fact that Lewis has never won a championship in a car that he built.

          – Which is completely irrelevant, as it is impossible to do that in these days.

      2. Look at the points per finish please, sir.

        I can’t help thinking that Kate isn’t male… :P

  34. Let’s not forget that Jack Brabham man also has an OBE. They don’t just hand those out to anyone!

    He also had a very flamboyant driving style that betrayed the fact that he had once also raced dirt track (midget) cars before he got to F1.

    This shouldn’t even be close.

  35. guys, he’gonna take another five championships, at least!!!

    1. Or he may not take any more at all.

      And if what I’m hearing about another British ‘wonder-kart’ kid is anything to go by………

  36. OK.. I am going to call all my Hamilton friends over here to white-wash this joint. ** Hamilton.. MUST…. WIINN!!**

    1. That’s……disturbing, but not totally unexpected.

    2. I hope that’s a joke because skewing one poll doesn’t make Hamilton any better it just undermines this splendid series Keith has put a lot of time and effort in to create.

    3. I have been watching F1 for donkey’s years so believe me.

      With this sort of fanboyism, I totally believe you!
      [/sarcasm]

  37. SennaNmbr1 (@)
    24th January 2011, 17:08

    As much as I love Lewis, JB wins this one for me.

  38. I think looking at them stats i’d have to go Lewis. Sorry Jack.

    1. Have you looked at the stats?

      1. He won 3 championships.

        1. Yes I did. He won three championships but i’m going on the 25% poles and also the victory percentage too.

  39. To rebuke the instant replies of ‘bias’, i’ll simply say this – I never saw Brabham race, nor have I heard much about his racecraft. The same can be said about drivers of a similar era like Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart and Jim Clark.

    However, perhaps because they are English, or perhaps because they were simply better, I know a lot more about their careers than I do Brabham. It leads me to draw a conclusion that while Brabham was good (very, in fact, since he’s a 3x champion), he might simply have been good and not extraordinary.

    I honestly think that Lewis is better than good. He may have had good cars, but he hasn’t yet been beaten by a teammate and he races with passion. For that reason, i’ve voted for him. Its close between the two, but unlike many of the current drivers (i.e. Vettel) I can see Lewis becoming a multiple world champion. Gut feeling i’ll admit, but that is what this competition is about I suppose.

    1. I vote for Karun Chandhok, he hasn’t been beaten by a teammate either.

  40. It’s not about what may be, it’s about what is.

  41. Brabham competed in 16 seasons but only started 123 grand prix. They could do that in 6 nowadays if we go to 20 races a season! He always seems to get overlooked when talking about the best drivers from the 50’s and 60’s and I don’t why.

    Considering he didn’t always have competitive machinery his points per finish is actually very impressive and three titles in a strong era says to me he should go through to the next round. Hamilton could end up winning more titles but this should be about what has been achieved rather than what a driver has the potential to achieve.

  42. Ive got to go with Hamilton, in my opinion 07 was a fix due to the spygate scandal. He won the title in 08 with the second best car on the grid. He had a terrible car in 09 but still put in some amazing drives. Last year he was in for a shout for the title with a car that was lightyears behind the redbulls. He his the most exciting driver on the grid and easily the best overtaker, he also beat the so called best driver on the grid in his first year. Hamilton in my eyes is the best of the best

    1. It wasn’t “fixed” in 07. He was fortunate to win the 08 title in equally the best car on the grid that season. His 2009 car wasn’t “terrible” when it won races. His 2010 car wasn’t “lightyears behind the RedBull’s”.

      Lewis Hamilton isn’t ‘Superman’.

      1. I wouldn’t agree it was equally the best car, more likely the second best car

  43. Sadly, Lewis isn’t very popular. The other drivers fear and are jealous of him; the same is true of their fans. No one in F1 history has, as a rookie, beaten the current two time champ in the same team. And Lewis’s overtaking ability, fitness (e.g., he doesn’t seem to sweat), and wet-weather driving set him apart from all but the very, very best. Perhaps in five years’ time, but certainly when he retires, Lewis will be nigh universally regarded as one of the very, very best, if not the best F1 driver of all time.

    As for comparing the drivers of different generations, the current crop are the best. Just as sprinters get faster as the generations come, boxers get taller, stronger, and faster, and tennis players likewise improve, so, too, F1 drivers improve. The level of fitness in F1 in the 70s, let alone the 60s and 50s, was so poor (execessive smoking, drinking, and a dearth of exercise) means that the old generation couldn’t even drive the current cars, let alone be competative.

    This Champion of Champions thing, which we all know will be won by Senna, only has it’s use in preparing us for the new season. As a comparison, it’s pointless. Atheletes, in every field of sport, always improve over the years. Natural ability might be greatest in one or two of the older generation, but, considering the whole package, the modern guys are the best.

    1. All good and well for Lewis, but more titles wouldn’t go amiss. Going by Senna’s rate, he’d need to win at least 2 more to become a serious player in the discussion, while coming close to winning at least 1 or 2 more of those. Very much possible, but not easy at all given today’s crop of drivers (Vettel, Alonso, and Kubica, just to name the biggest threats). Funny thing about the not seeming to sweat description – how many times have we said that of a driver? Lewis isn’t the first and certainly won’t be the last.

      The thing Lewis has going for him is his age – he’s young, he has a lot of time to win titles. But then, Vettel’s even younger than him, and Alonso is no elder, either. And who knows who’s yet to come into F1 with similar speed and talent?

      I agree on the fitness level, with one caveat: F1 is a LOT safer than it was before. Drivers of the 50s and 60s had to drive what were big, heavy cars, with the risk of death always hanging over you. Death is still a risk today, but nothing like what it was before.

      I agree that CofC is by no means a definitive answer. The seeding alone assures us of that. However, I don’t agree that modern athletes are necessarily the best when you consider the whole package. Other factors must be considered too: the state of the sport, the level of competition, and the like – and one can argue that there were times in the past that they were better than they are today.

      1. Add to that the drivers had to do more to control the car (Manual gearboxes and clutches), it was much harder to drive at the limit back then than now.

  44. Black Jack ahead, 53% to 47% for Lewis.

  45. Lewis’ points per finish is amazing. Beating Brabham despite being in a much harder era. Well to win anyway, with an almost 20% win rate. Considering 2009’s poor car he has been impressive, and if any year this year.

  46. Correction for my post:

    ‘No one in F1 history…’ should, clearly, be ‘no one else in F1 history …’. Lewis was second in the 2007 championship. Alonso had the same points but was classified third: that’s behind Lewis, btw.

    1. And behind Kimi. ;)

      1. Indeed, and I loved that conclusion to the 2007 season :D

      2. Who was in a better car, with thanks to the FIA, a very, very odd McLaren gearbox gremlin, and McLaren strategy.

        Kimi was then beaten by Massa. Then, Kimi was dropped from Ferrari early at great expense. That’s how good Kimi is!

        1. The F2007 wasn’t in any clear way a better car than the MP4-22. In fact, most would observe that it was the other way around. Plus it was definitely a more reliable car than the Ferrari.

          Kimi was dropped despite excellent results in the second half of 2009 as Ferrari simply wanted to grasp their opportunity at getting Alonso. They also didn’t want to drop a driver who was recovering from a horrendous injury.

  47. A hard one.
    Never seen Brabham race, so it’s stats comparison for me. On one hand Brabham got 3 titles, on the other Hamilton has more potential – better winning and scoring rates.
    So I voted Hamilton, in hope he will remain his usual racing self.

  48. How the hell was ’07 fixed? Despite being a Hamilton fan and it was incredible he got so close in his rookie year, that title was his to lose and he contrived to throw it away.

    1. Enter the conspiracy theories…

    2. Because in my view they were not allowed to win the title due to the spygate scandal, so they did something to his car to cover it up

      1. so they did something to his car to cover it up

        Perhaps Bridgestone made a defective right rear tyre for him in China? That was 8 points in the bag, enough to win the championship.

        Give it up. McLaren were eliminated from the WCC table and that was that. If anything the team should have messed with Alonso’s car, to teach him a lesson of sorts.

        1. The tyre problem in china was the teams fault for keeping him out too long. I do believe there is something fishy about brazil

          1. Although the team was to blame, Hamilton could have radioed to come in- after all, he was the one out on track. So yes, it was team’s fault. Hamilton is part of the team.

            And in Brazil, he suffered a gearbox problem. He was actually unlucky to suffer it, but on the flipside, fortunate that he didn’t retire from it. Besides, he made a poor start and ran off the road fighting over 3rd with Alonso (4th would have given him the title no matter what happened to Raikkonen).

          2. He did ask to come in earlier but his team told him to stay out. The alonso incident in brazil didn’t affect hamiltons result at all, it was the so called gearbox problem that ended his title fight

          3. Ahh, well, any bad luck/team errors Hamilton suffered balances out with Kimi’s bad luck earlier in the season (mechanical failures in Spain, Germany).

      2. Something to do with JFK and a place called Roswell, wasn’t it? You probably don’t believe that man landed on the moon either. LOL

    3. I don’t know, whether, like me, you’ve been watching F1 for decades, but the McLaren gearbox gremlin that put Lewis just enough behind (and it almost wasn’t enough, thanks to some mega overtaking) where he needed to be and then rebooted itself was very odd…

      It’s almost as if a team found guilty of using illegal data, removed from the WCC, and fined a record sports fee wasn’t allowed to win the WDC either…I’m sure Lewis knew nothing about it.

      1. Sure, the FIA targeted Hamilton’s gearbox, forced it to reboot and ruined his race. That’s totally believable.

        Seriously, will you Hamilton fanboys let it go? Mechanical failures happen rarely, but they do happen in F1. You don’t hear anybody accusing the FIA of conspiring to blow up Schumacher’s engine in Japan ’06.

      2. That is exactly my feelings, Lewis didn’t know about it. Ferrari would have kicked up a right stink if mclaren won anything that year. It was probably either give up the title or your getting banned from f1

      3. Its live telemetry, nobody can remotely change something on the car!!!!

        Surely if they could, the engineers could change the fuel mixture and engine settings when needed and requested by the driver, therfore making it easier for the driver to drive?! So why must the driver all of that manually. Why are there so many buttons on the steering wheel?

        Jesus ******* Christ!

        1. We don’t know exactly what they can and can’t do to their cars

        2. Let me introduce you to the dashboard…

          F1 cars don’t have a whole lot of room in them, nevermind the time it takes a driver to reach down to a button or switch.

          Have a looksie :P

  49. For what it’s worth, Senna will probably sweep the floor with whoever wins this anyway.

    Still, would be nice to know who’d win this one. :)

  50. Oh, so hard for a Lewis fan! With my heart, Lewis wins every time, but with my head, three titles (especially) in that era cannot be ignored.

    Plus the amount of car failures Jack had, and still won as much as he did.

    My vote goes to Brabham.

    Nathan

  51. Lewis is clearly a bit special (although i do slightly dislike him) but i feel Jack has had a greater impact thus far in F1, it is widely excepted that in a few yrs lewis will probably overtake him in the C of C’s list but as of today its got to be Jack come on fellow brits do the right thing and vote for a 3 times champ.

    Lewis and his dad won a few karting c’ships without mclaren but Brabham did the job in his own car at the highest level for that alone Jack wins this won

    1. What as winning in your own car got to do with anything?

      1. It’s “to do” with winning in your own car. Not something Adrian Newey is likely to attempt any time soon!

        But F1 cars were so much easier to drive then weren’t they. Certainly a lot easier to lose your life in.

        1. That doesn’t mean he was a better driver at all. Did he actually build the car all by himself like? :)

  52. Has to be Jack. Lewis will probably be better someday, but he ain’t there yet.

  53. That vote should have place at least about 15 years from today, then we will be able to compare them, now, its only predicions (for HAMILTON) ;)

    1. 15 years from now, you’d have another 5 champions at least. Possibly another youngster with a very impressive record that shadows Hamilton’s first four seasons. How will you vote then?

  54. This one’s going to be close… But why is Hamilton losing? No one can disagree that he can possibly be one of the best drivers ever

    1. One of the best “drivers”, maybe. Champion of Champions is another matter.

      1. Quite so. After all, who cares about the drivers’ driving?! Drivers aren’t here to do that. It doesn’t matter that Brabham was beaten by many of his teamates and Lewis has never lost to any of his, two of which were the current champs.

        What matters is that Brabham built his own car. That means he’s better than Lewis; ipso facto, Senna, Schumi, Prost, and anyone else who didn’t build their own cars. Lazy fools.

        Having said that, though, Britney Rosberg is probably the best looking driver; so, why don’t we vote for him. Or what about Massa, he speaks several languages and could get a job as a translator in a small or medium-large company in France. And what about Sutil, he likes videogames…

        Or we could vote for the once and future champion, the king of kings, Lewis Hamilton. The Daddy of F1. Kneel before your King.

        This voting is about as fair and impartial as Eurovision.

        1. I quite like and respect Hamilton, but voted for Brabham on the strength of his three world titles. In the future, Lewis could win this poll, but simply because other people don’t agree with your opinion doesn’t mean it’s “as fair and impartial as Eurovision”.

          Kneel before your King.

          No.

  55. This is not Australian Open. Champion of champions?!?

  56. I’m amazed that this battle is so close. I was under the impression that this site was for F1 Fanatics. Anybody with a small knowledge of F1 can see that Jack Brabham is a better champion as of today than Lewis Hamilton is. I’m not a Lewis fan but I do respect his skill behind the wheel but at the moment champion-wise he’s still in the same league as Jenson, Damon, Nigel. You can be the most flashy driver with the most overtakes every season but if you don’t get the job done then its all irrelevant.

    1. Indeed. If flamboyant driving is what you’re after, then there aren’t many to beat Gilles Villeneuve in that respect. But he never won a WDC, mores the pity, and so he doesn’t get a vote. Still the best ‘driver’ ever in F1 IMO. Totally unbelievable natural talent.

      1. How is villeneuve the greatest driver in f1 when he couldn’t beat his teamates lol. You come out with some corkers

        1. You don’t seem to be able to differentiate between ‘greatest’ and ‘most successful’.

          Beating your team mate has as much to do with circumstances than anything else.

          If you read a little bit about the history of F1, you will find that most, if not all, of the drivers of Villeneuves era were in awe of the mans driving talents.

          There are many stories to back this up, not least about the one where he was 11 seconds quicker than anyone else in the rain at Watkins Glen. Do you even know where that is?

          http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/89065

          1. hmmm….wrong link. But F1 folklore is full of stories about Villeneuve’s antics.

          2. It’s the facts that count and he lost to his teamate. Shouda, wudda, cudda isn’t good enough :)

          3. So why are you arguing that Lewis should win this over Brabham? He shoulda arguably had 2 WCs under his belt, quite possibly 3. He coulda sown up his first in his rookie year two races before the end of the season. He woulda been the most amazingly awesome rookie probably forever if he had.

            But he hasn’t, didn’t and only might still be. As of now though, he’s “only” an amazingly talented driver with very bright future prospects in a well-oiled team. Whereas Brabham is an actual factual 3-time world champion.

            You like the guy, that’s fair enough. But the reasons you’re coming up with for people not to like other drivers, seem to be the exact reasons why you shouldn’t be backing Hamilton in this matchup. But I guess they don’t apply to you.

    2. In the same league as jenson, Damon, and Nigel?!!

      I don’t think so. Lewis is a special talent. Don’t just go by number of titles. That doesn’t matter. Schumi won 7 but almost always had the best car, an average teammate who wasn’t allowed to fight him, below-par competitors, etc. Stats can lie.

      If there were any justice in this sham vote, Lewis would be amongst the last three: Lewis, Schumi, and, the winner, Senna. And if a similiar poll were conducted in 5 years’ time, Lewis would probably be no: 1.

      1. Schumi won 7 but almost always had the best car, an average teammate who wasn’t allowed to fight him, below-par competitors, etc.

        The only seasons where he had a superior car were 1994, 2001, 2002 and 2004. He won the 1995 title with the second best car, dragged a slow 1997 car into genuine title contention, an inferior 98 machine to the final round against Hakkinen, and won the 2000 and 2003 titles in cars that were at best level with the competition.

        Schumacher fought against great drivers on his way to those 7 titles, like Hakkinen, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hill, Montoya and many more. If you feel that the competition was “below-par” then it’s because the team MSC assembled made them look average.

      2. Say what you will Alistair, but as things stand TODAY, Hamilton has only won one WDC. That’s the same league as Jenson, Damon and Nigel.

        If it makes you feel better, that’s also the same league as Mike Hawthorn, Nino Farina and James Hunt.

      3. The moment Hamilton can emulate Jim Clark and start just under half his races on pole, win half the races he finished, lead every lap of the British GP over a four year period, come second in Le Mans, win the Indy 500, and become BTCC champion, then we can talk about Hamilton being amongst the true greats: Fangio, Senna and Clark.

        At the moment he’s a fantasic driver, and one of the best on the grid today. He’s nowhere near the greatest of all time – yet. Thats the point – right now, he just cant compare to their achievements.

        1. I could add other drivers, but those are the three standout for me.

        2. No disrespect but the level of competition nowadays is probably way harder than in the days of fangio

  57. ‘Black Jack’ was also one of the few back-to-back champions in F1’s history. He was also noted for his ruthlessness on track, and his moody silence off it.

  58. Well if Lewis is in nigels league he must be doing something right

    1. Well If he’d like to take a year out to win the Indy title, then things would certainly be a lot quieter around here. ;)

      1. True and much more boring :)

    2. Nigel was great at many things, not least overtaking. But he was also very unfit, a bit lazy, a whinger, not as good as lewis in the wet, etc.

      Lewis is much better.

  59. This is the closest yet, Brabham one of the greats while Hamilton is expected to be come a great.

    Their circumstances skew the results a bit tho’. Brabham had poor reliability compared to Hamilton, but the cars were generally less reliable, while Hamilton has spent his entire career thus far in a top flight team.

    Still I’m voting for Hamilton he’s got that special something.

    At the time of writing it’s close at 200 – 189. Tho’ I feel in a 3 years it could be more one sided in Hamilton’s favour

    1. Well that’s the thing isn’t it. He could win more titles or he could become another ‘one hit wonder’. Time will tell. Circumstances will always play the greater part in any WDC, as Hamilton well knows.

  60. Indeed. Hamilton is just a few points behind Brabham now. I’m really hoping that Hamilton wins this one, if only to prove what most of us already know.

    I also have a feeling that it will be a long time before anyone driving a McLaren gets a sniff of another WDC. Vettel will be untouchable if the RedBull is both fast and reliable, and I say that as a ‘fan’ of neither.

    1. BTW. It’s still only 7.00 AM in Sydney. LOL

    2. Nearly all the drivers in f1 would be untouchable if there car was very fast and reliable. Vettel struggled against webber, I driver who is not noted as one of the best on the grid let alone an all-time great :)

      1. Vettel struggled against his car, unlike other drivers. You don’t get 9 pole positions in one season by being slow.

        1. You don’t get points for pole positions. Lewis out qualified jenson more than Sebastian did mark. Case closed ;)

          1. You also dont get points for crashing your car or choking when the pressure is on towards the end, wah wah waaaaaah…

            Making excuses up again Damon? whats next in your book: “Why Lewis is best OMG listen”

            Two engine failures a brake failure all while leading those grand prix’s, and Vettel still walks away with the title by holding his nerve…can’t really say that about Lewis now can we? *choke* *choke*

          2. And where did Lewis choke at the end of the season? China was the teams fault. Brazil?? Il leave it at that.

    3. for 2011 and 2012 I am inclined to agree, I don’t see Mclaren overtaking red bull in terms of building a better car. BUt with the new rules for 2013, we wipe the board clean, ground effect cars are a whole new cup of tea. Personally, I see WIlliams at having a shot at making a great car for 2013..patrick head being one of the few designers left around from the “original” ground effect days…

    4. Vettel is overrated. Newey won those titles. Vettel only just managed to win the title in by far the best car. His car was nigh always 0.5 + seconds faster than the Mclaren; yet, the title went down to the wire. People say Lewis makes mistakes, I lost count of the mistakes Vettel and Alonso made last season: in the best moment of the season, Vettel even took out his teammate; then the whole team blamed Webber! That just tops Silverstone, where RBR ‘removed’ Webber’s new wing and gave it to Vettel, who’d broken his. Classic!

      1. Vettel doesn’t crash into stationary cars in the pit lane and doesn’t need teamates like Heikki giving him easy number 1 status in a team ,he also doesn’t have to cheat by lying or taking 4 wheels of the circuit.

        Hamilton barely won his world title against massa who you rate average while vettel beat Alonso, Webber, Button and Lewis all in title contending cars. Alonso was unable to fight the WDC in 08 remember?

        So what if Newey helped win those titles Mercedes and Ron Dennis helped Lewis win his world title? whats your point…

        1. Vettel doesn’t need no 1 status?? You make me smile :)

          1. Point is, Webber is nowhere near as good as Vettel, and Vettel is a superb driver.

          2. How can you say that when he was closer to vettel than WORLD CHAMPION jenson button was to Hamilton?

          3. Because Vettel suffered more car failures than Webber, who not only made as many mistakes as Vettel did, but had truely absymal pace at times. His points tally and 3rd in the championship flatters his overall performance.

          4. I’m not including dnf’s, Lewis outqualified jenson more than vettel did webber. Jenson is a world champion and webber is an also ran

          5. Qualifying does not gain you championship points. The race results do. And clearly, without the car conveniently breaking down, Vettel would have had a bigger advantage over Webber than Hamilton did over Button.

          6. Hamilton had more failures than button so it works both ways

  61. Hamilton’s my second driver at the mo, but if he beats one of the sports greats then it’d make this whole process a mockery IMO.

    In the future? Maybe… but certainly not at the moment.

    1. ‘if he beats one of the sports greats’

      Does the then current and double world champion, his rookie team-mate in 07, Alonso, not count? If you beat the best driver in F1, you become the best driver in F1.

      In 07, Lewis had to learn the physical and mental demands of F1, which are like nothing he’d done or could simulate, not to mention the tyres, the car, the majority of the tracks, etc – still, he led the WDC from the THIRD round (fourth round, outright)until the penultimate round of his rookie year: way before Alonso fell out with Ron (after blackmailing him to force Lewis to not beat him on the track).

      1. I believe Jonesy is talking about the voting process, not what Hamilton did or didn’t do on track. Take a chill pill.

        1. Aye, I think Hamilton’s had a great career so far, but he’s not up there with the greats… yet.

  62. Not sure why this is so close; I haven’t read a good argument here to vote for Hamilton yet.

    1. agreed, just went through the comments, a lot of people explaining, and reasoning why to vote for Jack and not Lewis, and only a few people shouting “LEWIS IS THE BEST” Yet the vote is almost a tie….could it be that most Hammilton voters know they are making a vote that doesn’t make sense, and are therefor voting annonimously ? ;)

      1. The majority of F1 drivers don’t like Lewis. As Martin Brundle said at Monza 08 (and other times) the other drivers don’t like Lewis and always complain about his driving because he’s too good.

        If the majority of F1 drivers don’t like Lewis, is it any wonder that the majority of F1 fans, being fans of all the different drivers, don’t like him, either?

    2. Perhaps you should read my comments. Or, better still, watch the DVDs. Hamilton hasn’t been given a particularly good brief above. Examine Lewis’s performance against a certain Spaniard called Alonso. Or search ‘Lewis Hamilton overtakes’ on YT. At worst, you’ll be entertained.

      This inter-gen comparison is daft. If you compare one sportsman from one era, no matter how good he was in his time, the best of the current generation will be better, if a generation or so has passed since.

      It’s like comparing Fred Perry with Nadal. Nadal is faster, stronger, better prepared, etc. There’s no way Perry, or any one of the old legends, would beat Nadal. The same is true of F1. The F1 drivers of the 50s and 60s couldn’t stand the stresses of a modern F1 car; heck, many of the old guys wouldn’t have fit in the current cars. Their diets were awful, they smoked, they drank, they hardly exercised, they were ill-prepared – they were often part-timers.

      They may have been good, in their day. But, objectively, they’re not. F1 is such a protean sport; it’s always about tomorrow, about next season. The past is the past.

    3. I’ve looked this up – Brabham was before my time; since my time was no doubt before the vast majority of users’ here, I suspect hardly anyone saw him race.

      Anyway, Brabham was outscored by his teammates several times

      here’s just a few.

      Jacky Ickx – ’69
      Jochen Rindt – 68 & 67
      Dan Gurney – 63
      Bruce McLaren – 61

      Lewis, of course, has never been outscored by a team-mate – even though he paired the current and double world champ in his rookie year 07; and the current champ in 2010…..Not bad, eh?

      PS I can’t vote for technical reasons. So, whatever the final vote, it’s +1 Lewis.

      1. Alistair, you make a valid and good point, but in the interest of clarity I submit the following:

        In 1961 Brabham was concentrating on development of Cooper’s Indy car and basically just showed up for GPs without having spent much time at all in the car. He did finish ahead of McLaren in the few races he managed to finish, bar Monaco where he was classified 8th but didn’t actually make to the end.

        In 1963 Brabham finished ahead of Gurney in every race he finished (only one of Jack’s DNFs was due to driver error).

        From ’67 onwards Brabham concentrated on development and business…his team mate in those years was, for all intents and purposes, the number 1 driver.

        It is by no means necessary to take these circumstances into account when making a choice here, but they do provide some further light on his driving abilities vis a vis his team mates and contemporaries.

      2. Hulme in ’67.

  63. 3 titles for brabham, including 1 IN A CAR HE BUILT HIMSELF. case closed.

    1. It was a completely different time! No-one does that anymore. It’s unfair on Hamilton to make that comparison. You might as well say that Jack’s, ipso facto, better than Senna, Schumi, Prost etc: after all, THEY never built their own cars….

      You find me someone other than Lewis who beat the current and double world champion in the same team in his rookie year. There’s no-one in the history of F1. Lewis’s overtakes are some of the best and most numerous in F1 history: most of the other drivers play can’t overtake, won’t overtake. Lewis is the only driver, since Senna (yep, not ‘rainmaster’ Schumi or Alonso) to win a wet race by over 60s….

      All the doubters will have egg on their faces soon: in a few years, certainly by the time he retires, Lewis will be regarded as one of the very best, I dare say the best, driver of all-time. Those of us who’ve watched F1 for a couple of decades and more have never seen a driver as good as Lewis. Those who’ve watched for a couple of seasons simply can’t appreciate how good he is.

      1. It was indeed a different time, you could be killed at every corner of every race back then. We can’t tell the same nowadays.

      2. alistair….I’ve watched formula 1 for the past 30 years, and I’ve seen many better drivers of a ‘car’ them Hamilton….Alsono, Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Mika, Mansell, Pique and the list goes on.
        Lewis is a good driver surrounded by a good team of people who have managed him in every aspect of F1 quiet well in the past 3-4 years. The true test will be when he steps away from McLaren and takes a drive with another team. Great drivers have the ability to make any car work well in any conditions. Lewis hasn’t yet had to face that, regardless of what you think in his rookie season with McLaren. Never has a driver been so prepared for a drive like Hamilton. Time will tell if he will be considered one of the greats, but I’m betting that he will be remembered for being very good, and thats about it. I’m not a hater, just more of a realist.

        1. Thank you. Nobody denies that Hamilton is a very good driver. But the circumstances under which he entered the sport were extraordinary. He’s been associated with Ron Dennis and McLaren since he was 11. He knew the way the team worked well before he was measured for his first seat fitting. He was parachuted into possibly the best car that season.

          Other drivers would kill for the kind of team support he had in his rookie season.

          1. Yes and mclaren did all this because they knew was special

  64. I can’t believe anyone would vote for Hamilton over Brabham.
    The man won three championships, one of which was in his own car, similar to Greham Hill he drove for a long period in a time when deaths were frequent and he was more than competitive well into his 40s – something Michael Schumacher wishes he could boast

    1. Unlike modern drivers however, Brabham wasn’t competitive in his 20’s.

      1. He didn’t start in F1 until he was 29, you can’t hold that against him

        1. Most modern F1 drivers don’t continue into their 40’s. And the only driver on the grid over 40 initially retired at 37.

  65. Im A Huge Hamilton Fan And Thought Jack Brabham Was Going To Smash Him Into The Ground But Really When You Look In Detail Wow Hamilton Has Only Been In The Sport 4 Years And Jack Brabham Was In It For 16 Years And Had The Same Amount Of Wins As Hamilton And Hamilton Has Had More Poles Than Jack So It Is A Really Close One When You Look At It

  66. i think hamilton is the best f1 driver of all time simply because he beat two world champions while remaining unbeaten. teammates have the same equipment so it is a fairer competition than inter team competition. any of the current drivers with a car advantage and a teamorders in their favour would win races the championship for as long as the car allows them to.
    button proved that and rosberg showed that an average driver of today would beat the best of the past on equal terms.

    1. Best f1 driver of all time? Wow, you really believe that?

    2. Good call, like I said today’s drivers are more than likely the best there’s ever been. Schumacer as destroyed all of his teamates throughout his career yet was embarassed by rosberg who hasn’t shown to be anything special thus far. Plus schumacer was getting the upperhand on senna who is known for being the best of the best. I have got to agree maybe Hamilton is the champion of champions, just hope that mclaren give him a car that’s on par with the frontrunners, then Lewis will do what he does best, kick ass

      1. Maybe Rosberg just hasn’t had the luck in which Lewis and Vettel got early…title contending cars.
        Williams never gave Nico a decent car to race against the big boys and now he will get his shot with Mercedes

        Yes Rosberg is poor on starts but that doesn’t stop him overtaking them again which he mostly does

        1. Rosberg as been beaten by his teamates, Hamilton hasn’t.

      2. Nico has never had a title contending car in his career unlike the world champions on the grid now.

        Nico should of won Singapore 08 but was robbed of crashgate, he also could of beat Alonso at South Korea if webber had not crashed into him.

        Don’t think just because Rosberg has never won a race makes him nothing special, thats nieve because he is just as good as Kubica, who people see to becoming a WDC in the near future.

        I expect Mercedes to deliver a better package this year for Nico which will put him right up there with the front runners.

        So let’s not bury his career just yet please…

        1. To be fair, it was his own fault that he didnt win in 08. If he just hadnt crossed the pit exit line, he would have won the race,

      3. You’re failing to mention the fact that Schumacher is clearly now well past his prime following a long period out of the sport, you honestly think Rosberg would have beaten the Schumacher of the late 90’s/early 2000’s?

        1. @debaser91

          Tbh yer I agree that schumi is past his prime “hands up” 3 years out of the sport took it’s toll on him and Rosberg whooped him, just like the other drivers i’m sure would of done.

          But you would of thought a whole season could of bought him up to a degree of “sharpness”. You don’t just drive for your whole life, take 3 years out and then you just can’t get close to what you were afterwards. Maybe schumi’s own high standards in fitness and craftmanship have finally caught up with him on the new generation that we watch now.

          Alonso is the only driver to have beat schumi in his “prime” so maybe we have to wait for the 2011 season and see if Mercedes can deliver a car for Nico, if Nico beats Alonso in certain equal cars, maybe Nico shows he is the real deal even if Schumi was in his prime.

          1. I am not a fan of Schumacher but I really don’t think he did all that badly last year.

            During the period in which he was retired the design of formula one cars fundamentally changed with the new regulations in’09, and with testing banned it would take anyone a while to get up to speed again after a three year break, especially if they were 41 years old competing against young hungry drivers.

            When you think of Niki Lauda’s successful comeback think the circumstances are slightly different. Lauda retired far too early first time round and was only 33 when he returned, with the cars he returned to more similar to what he competed in previously than Schumacher’s Mercedes is to the Ferrari of ’06.

            The grid is also now competitive than any time that I can remember with conceivably 7 or 8 people challenging for wins next year so it is highly improbable to expect Schaumacher to come and dominate.

            Next year will give us more of an indication of how good Rosberg is once Schumacher has a year back but even if he beats him again that does not for me detract from Schumacher’s first career, and regardless of how Rosberg performs I cannot ever him beating the Michael of ten years ago

      4. oh please…..so by that logic, seeing as vettel beat schuey, who then beat senna, then vettel must be the best of the best…after all, he is the 2010 WDC, and I believe that included one L Hamilton. gee whiz.

    3. And I would never call Rosberg an avarage driver…

      1. Exactly, hard to believe that ignorant people still regard Rosberg as average despite his efforts at Williams and Mercedes…

  67. Go Brabam !

  68. Ha, it is much closer then it seems… :)
    According to my analysis, Lewis and Sir Jack were both 2x the best drivers of a season, while in races Hamilton was 17x the best and sir Jack only 12x…
    So, at least according to this, it should be Hamilton…
    Personally, I rate them very equall, but at least I saw Lewis race… :)

  69. I find hamiton the most intresting and entertaining driver to drive in F1, but he makes alot of mistakes.

    Lets not forget Brabhams last corner last lap at monaco
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmzyHri8xKk

  70. Why would i vote for someone i never heard of? My Mom wasn’t even born yet when Brabham won his last wdc.
    My vote goes to Lewis Hamilton. :)

    1. That was a joke, right?! Oh dear.

    2. Eh, if that’s your thinking, then why vote at all? It’s not a popularity contest…

      1. I don’t mean that in a harsh or mean way, just kinda puzzled why you think it matters whether you heard about the guy at all. That’s why the facts of their performances in F1 are at the bottom of the article.

    3. No doubt you never heard of Senna or Schumacher either. ;)

    4. *can’t sleep, clown’ll eat me*

      That’s provided you were joking. I voted Brabham because although I was born in 1991, I have read a lot about Brabham and feel that his legacy exceeds what Hamilton has achieved so far. In the future, Lewis may win my vote.

    5. How dare you guys questioning my vote? In the last poll, some of you voted Jenson just because he’s a nice guy. I’m 20, started to watch F1 in 2003 with my family and got really into it in 2007. I don’t feel sorry for being young.

      1. Are you aware that Formula one didn’t start in 2007 (i.e. when Lewis Hamilton arrived) There is a massive sixty year history of the sport, where several drivers at this point in time have a much better claim to being great than Lewis.

        Being young is not really an excuse to ignore the past, I am 19 but there is plenty of information out there if you want to find it.

  71. I think Hamilton still need to prove that he’s more than talented driver.Brabham is smarter and also was team owner. so I go to Brabham. I guess he is the oldest ever when he got third title, right?

    1. I think Fangio, Farina and Ascari were older than Brabham when they won their last titles.

  72. The reason a lot of people in the UK don’t like Hamilton is as he was a British driver in a British team who had a shot at winning the world championship the tabloid media in the UK massively overexposed him. Also F1’s coverage (ITV a lot more than BBC)became more heavily focused on him to the detriment of other drivers. This caused a backlash of sorts. And yes the other drivers probably didn’t like a rookie coming in and stealing all the limelight, but his arrogant personality does him no favours in that regard,

    Then there are some of his fans who refuse to acknowledge his flaws and ram down people’s throats how great he is, and that gets on peoples nerves. I am a fan of Hamilton, but it is premature to start including him in the pantheon of greats of the sport i.e. Clark, Senna, Prost, Fangio, Schumacher, Stewart etc until he has won more than one title

    1. ITV was the worst in doing races with Hamilton in it, glad it’s gone. BBC have done the correct course in treating him like any other driver and will pick at any mistake he does like they do with the rest, and yet fanboys call foul on this.

      Every driver in F1 has his flaws and matching arrogance about them to annoy any person since they have to think they are top dog.

      Certain Lewis fanboys just wont listen to what other people have to say about who will win the world title.

      Some guy who thought he was a “f1 fan” in a forum asked me who was going to win the WDC this season I said:

      “It will be Vettel’s to lose” <-That's a fair answer right? Good 09 season, strong finish, great car and a quick driver.

      Not for him though it's either Lewis or nobody…

      I then told him "just because you think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread doesn't mean it makes him better then, Senna, Fangio etc and other greats."

      His words after: "Who's Fangio?" <- Thats the kind of 07-08 Lewis fanboy I dislike the most just like some ship jumping Chelsea, or Man city "fan" when the money starts rolling in. You learn more about formula 1 as a whole if you stop focusing on 1 driver for the season and watch everything, took me years to notice that when i was a schumi fan previous.

      Respect to the real Lewis fans who admit he is a great driver but has his flaws and the guys who noticed his talent before he got into a McLaren.

      Respect to you Debaser91 wish there were more Lewis fans like you around, posting would be alot more enjoyable.

      1. ITV was the Lewis Hamilton show. But now we have a RBR dominated show. DC, now the commentator, still works for RBR! That should breach the BBC code. They always talk to Horner, etc; they always go the the RBR place. Also, they talk too much about the minnows, giving them equal time with the proper teams. Bad show, BBC.

        1. I agree about the RBR show same could be said for the Brawn show the season before, but maybe the reason why DC is in the BBC is because he can help get to the drivers in Red Bull alot quicker than the other sports channels can. tbh wish they would extend the red button time so to get more teams involved bar the top 4. HRT, sauber, Toro Rosso etc…

      2. Name me one driver who hasn’t had any flaws. Maybe computers can drive the cars, then we will see no mistakes

        1. That wasn’t really the point I was trying to make, obviously all drivers have strengths and weaknesses.

          People would be a lot more receptive to what you have to say on here if you behaved as if you realised Formula One did not start when Lewis Hamilton entered the sport(I have this same problem with some Alonso fans) and are ignorant of all the great drivers of the past.

          Yes Hamilton is quick but to call him the greatest ever is frankly ridiculous.

          1. The fact is we will never know who is the greatest. All we can do is give our opinions, and 9 times out of 10 they are biased

  73. Brabham undoubtedly did more for the sport than Lewis has to date. He was also offers the more ‘complete’ package in terms of his team ownership & winning the championship in his own car.

    3 to 1. That’s the way to rank them, right?

    It’s a no-brainer – Jack by a mile (so long as we’re voting on actual achievement over potential). But being a UK site, well… :)

    1. I suspect that Lewis’s winning the title once has been more inspirational to more young persons than has any of Brabham’s titles. It’s been said before; but Lewis did the Woods’s effect for F1. In his short time in F1

      1. alistair…..it’s comments such as these and the ones posted earlier that show you are not a supporter of F1, but a particular driver in F1. Not a problem, but you need to understand that it limits any opinions expressed such as yours as jipperish….please, the tiger woods of F1….why, cause his black?

  74. I can bet half the Brabham voters don’t know the guy.
    They know hamilton though!

    Lewis stats are much better, outside of the #of WDC.

  75. I reckon Brabham is going to win this. But when I look at the poll I kinda chuckle, how and why is the poll so close?! Brabham should be winning this by a mile. It’s the same when Stewart and Raikonen were up against eachother, Stewart easily beat him.

    But when it’s Hamilton up against a 3 time world champion, who sucesfully built up his won team, Hamilton manages to stick close byt to him on the polls. And in my opion Kimi is better the Lewis.

    I know people say they arn’t biased, I’m also not calling anyone in particular biased, but seriosly.

    1. hmm a few keyboard mistakes in that lol :-P

      I also wanted to say I have read every post on this, and I havn’t come by one.. not one good reason why I should vote Hamilton over Brabham.

      1. You’ve not read my posts then.

        The main judge of any driver in F1 is his performance against his teammate. They have the same situation. Lewis has beaten all his teammates, even the current double world champ as a rookie as well as the current WDC last year.

        Brabham was beaten many times by his teammates.

        1. Yeh that still doesn’t make me want to vote for Hamilton. Yes Hamilton has beaten all his temaates, but he still has many years to go in F1. I’m not voting on how many temaates they beat, I’m voting on who i think is a better world champion. Clearly it is Jack. Hamilton may go onto win more titles, maybe he won’t win any other ones. Hamilton might win champion of champions in 10 years time and beat Brabham then.. but not now.

    2. Kimi was overrated. If Massa beats you, you can’t be the real deal.

      1. Oh Alistair.

        If Massa beats you, you can’t be the real deal?

        Remind me just how close it was back in ’08 between Massa and Hamilton? 1 point more to Massa, and by you’re own very standards the great Lewis Hamilton could be considered not the real deal!

        Next time you’re going to tarnish this websites with your comments, think before typing. Then think again.

        1. Completly agree. Massa nearly beat Hamilton in 08. Infact he should have if it wasn’t for all that bad luck. Problem with Massa now is that he has dropped in performance since that accident.

        2. They was in different cars, that doesn’t prove anything. Hamilton would wipe the floor with massa if they were teamates

          1. “They was in different cars, that doesn’t prove anything.”

            Massa bet Raikkonen. Hamilton bet……

          2. Yes and in 08 Hamilton beat massa and massa beat……. :)

  76. Vote Hamilton becuase Brabham’s going to lose in the next round anyway!
    WDC are not all equal, Brabham’s 3 may well be worth 1. Jack’s stats are worse.

    I also wanted to say I have read every post on this, and I haven’t come by one.. not one good reason why I should vote Brabham over Hamilton.

    1. Umm, he built his own car and won a WDC with it? He was his own race engineer? He was Knighted for his achievements. There’s a few for you…

      And I think you are wrong about Championships. They are all equal. Brabham has three, Hamilton has one.

      It’s a no-brainer imho, though no offence against Hamilton. He’s just not in contention with the big boys of F1 history yet. Sir Jack Brabham all the way.

    2. Vote Hamilton becuase Brabham’s going to lose in the next round anyway!

      We all know that someone who’s been in F1 for 4 years will beat Aryton Senna in the polls, don’t we?

    3. How about the fact that Brabham’s cars failed 35% of the time, compared to Hamiltons 2%, and his average points per race is only one less than Hamilton’s? If you’d take your blinding adoration for Hamilton down a notch you would appreciate other drivers more. Its a no brainer, Brabham over Hamilton

  77. the hami haters have hacked the polls! WTH? I need to do something about this! Better search some fansites and come back with an army!

    1. Or maybe it’s just that the ‘Ozzies’ have now woken up?

      I’m off to get reinforcements from some Spanish and Italian websites. ;) Oh wait! They’re already here. LOL

    2. yes, the only reason that people would vote for Sir Jack is because they hate Hamilton. Far out stop being ridiculous. Brabham is, at the moment, far more deserving than Hamilton to get through.

      In 10 years the situation may be different, but at the moment, Brabham is a superior champion to Hamilton.

      I’m shocked it is this close, Brabham should be much further in front imo.

  78. I’m surprised. Brahbam should be winning easily but looks like the “Hamilton fanclub” are desperately voting. Brahbam created his car and won the title. Hamilton is used to be forgiven by the stewards, like the black-and-white flag in Malaysia last year (doest it have any sense to show that flag?), like the towing back to the track a couple of years ago in Nurburgring, like taking Webber out of the course in China, like overtaking the Safety car in Valencia, and a lot of etceteras.

    1. Yeh abit like webber taking Hamilton out in Melbourne and Singapore

  79. I voted for Brabham mainly for his development of his own car and then winning in it!

    Lewis has a whole career ahead of him to get on the next champion of champions list. It is very hard to compare active drivers to drivers where you can look over their whole career and scrutinize. With the active ones there are too many what ifs.

    That said, not being a Hamilton fan, he is one of the greatest drivers out there today and ever. He has balls where so few do and he still manages an incredible car failure free streak.

  80. Nice job keith .what a nonsense poll. Champion of champions . How can you compare drivers from different eras. Try to find other stuff to keep ppl visiting your site. What a waste of time

    1. Where were you 3 weeks ago when the contest started? Is it a nonsense poll only now, because Hamilton is currently losing?

      1. Is nonsense because it really doesn’t make sense and doesn’t achieve anything

        1. If you don’t want to take part, then don’t. Some of us that are very much into F1 enjoy the hypothetical analysis of comparing the sporting greats of our favourite sport.

          This particular round was very enjoyable. I really like both drivers and had several reasons to vote for either.

    2. How can you compare drivers from different eras.

      I addressed this at the start:

      F1 Fanatic Champion of Champions introduction

      If you’ve got a criticism to make, fine, but make it constructive. At the moment you’re just whingeing.

      1. I haven’t commented much on these posts, but I’ve been following Champion of Champions from the start and, for what it’s worth, have really enjoyed it. Great way to fill in the down season, and I’ve learnt a few things about drivers who I didn’t know much about. Can’t wait for the start of the season and more great reporting!

  81. this doesnt even make sense suddenly.
    everyone is voting for brabhan cause he built in own car in the shed? and hamilton didn’t?
    or because hamilton was waved a black and white flag for tryin to break the tow?
    and though i hugely respect keith’s work, i have to sadly agree with palla here. driver’s of different eras cannot be compared. driving styles, rules, car setups, everythin was different in the two eras.
    yes i am a hamilton fan. but here’s the deal. I’d say the same if kimi was not voted for against brabham or if alonso was not voted for or even schumacher (even though I dont like him) was not voted for. one just cannot compare two drivers who never drove the same type of car.

    1. So where were you 3 weeks ago when the contest started? Is it a problem now because Hamilton is currently losing?

      Nobody here thinks this is an absolute comparison of drivers. Every driver’s achievements should be looked at in the context of their own time. It’s like how American football has become more violent today because the safety gear is so good and there’s very little chance of hurting yourself while tackling another player.

    2. It’s not meant to be a definitive answer to the question of “who is the greatest F1 champion,” its something to fill in time in the lull that occurs between seasons, without talking ad nauseum about Lotus v Lotus and other such non-stories.

      Everyone knows that it’s hard to compare drivers from different eras in different cars, but the challenge in this for the readers is to make those comparisons using available data.

      You look stupid by criticising the validity of the contest, just because your favoured driver isn’t winning. What you are criticising is the considered opinion of hundreds of dedicated F1 fans. The people who contribute to this site have more than a casual interest in the sport, hence why we are talking about it during the off-season. If you think that Hamilton is better than Brabham, you can vote for him if you want. But don’t criticise the result if it goes against your vote by challenging it’s validity, because that also means that your vote is equally invalid.

      As for the “It’s only Aussies voting for Brabham skewing the results,” that’s rubbish. It’s less likely that there are an army of Aussies voting for Australian drivers than there is an army of Hamilton supporters doing the opposite. Besides, why did Alan Jones lose so convincingly to Niki Lauda in the first round? It must be all those damn Austrians!!!

      Kindly retreat back under your bridge.

      1. Dear DavidS,
        Stop calling people stupid just because they have an opinion against yours.
        and i dont really care who wins anyway. I dont think f1fanatic is made of exclusive members who are gods in f1 history. I can bet you most of the votes are more favoritism than factual. voting system has never solved anything and everyone knows that. This is a plain vote, not vote and explain why. that way it’d be better with a panel of people who know a lot about f1 who sit down and come up with a decision themselves n let readers argue about it.
        I am just trying to put forward the fact that it is insanely difficult only because most of the present drivers are more exposed through the media and their life is better known than the old drivers who are usually restricted to the wikipedia entries if anyone does intend to dig up on them.
        I understand you think that i am biased towards hamilton, and yes i am cause i think if keith ever plans on ranking drivers based on elimination later, lewis might come much lower. maybe brabham is god, i dunno. but how am i supposed to know that when put on the track at the same time brabham will walk all over hamilton? btw, considering the cuttin edge technology f1 cars have today, the 90s drivers who drove the crude cars to the absolute limit anyway beat the present drivers. so why the vote in the first place?

        @Burnout: i dunno! :P

      2. I so completly agree with DavidS.

      3. Nicely put :)

        And offcourse not only australians vote for Jack, I voted for him, and I’m Dutch….go figure ;)

    3. You would be comparing them if Hamilton was winning this duel.

      1. @VXR: i still compared them even now and thot hamilton deserves it more cause he was a former youngest champion which very few ppl have achieved. I didnt get the point u were tryin to make though.

        1. Vettel is currently the youngest champion to date, so that trumps Hamilton. So where is he in this contest? Well he’s German and he beat Hamilton didn’t he. So, not likely to get much sympathy here then.

          Suddenly it’s all not very fair now that Hamilton is going out against Brabham. Possibly the ‘weakest’ champion out of the the ‘great’ ones that are left.

          I wanted Hamilton to win this one, but that was just to prove a point with someone else. Oh well, you can’t have everything can you.

          1. Vettel is the youngest champion, but he did it in a car that was easily the best. Vettel is fast but Hamilton is the complete package

          2. hmmm… okay. makes sense now.
            appreciate u spending time to explain me that. rather than mocking people like mr davids and asking them to sit under some bridge he owns…
            well, thank u!

    4. well we are comparing them now aren’t we? Anything can be compared, son.

  82. Why is this so close??? I really don’t understand this!

    1. because hamilton captured people’s imagination. Never underastimate that.
      On the other hand, brabham is too far back in history, and most of the fans didn’t see him race. So they just know him looking at the stats. And some youtube footage.
      I voted for hamilton, because i think he is a better driver, and his numbers regarding titles are going to get closer to jack’s in the future.
      And even if hamilton is not perfect, and needs to keep on improving, like a friend of mine said. He is the biggest talent since the great ayrton. And i agree.
      For the record, i am from spain.

  83. Comment on my post regarding Hamilton not being a Champion of Champions due to his lying for race stewards:

    ///”Dobin1000 January 24, 2011 at 4:45 pm
    So does that mean Schumacher or Senna could be Champion of Champions despite both having deliberately driven into another car during a race, endangering their own and others lives, but telling a porky means you are a pariah forever?”///

    To answer your question Dobin1000, I certainly don´t see Schumacher nor Senna as a Champion of Champions partly for the incidents you mentioned. To me Formula 1 has always been a sport for gentlemen and ladies.

    To find a Champion of Champions, the greatest Champion, I look for statistics AND sportsmanship – it´s easy to start eliminating drivers who showed zero sportsmanship during their career – once is enough as I can find a few who never acted unsportsmanlike – these are the Great Champions.

  84. I have to respect the commitment of Sir Jack and the F1 drivers from the 50’s when F1 racing was much more dangerous.

  85. Great driver Jack Brabham, he reckons he could have won 4, which would have put him equal with Prost – an extraordinary achievement. But in terms of raw ability Brabham was not considered in the very first rank, good though he was. His championships were won through engineering nous and a limitless capacity for hard graft, while faster drivers were in the wrong cars or suffered from unreliability. One year Brabham was even pipped to the title by his teammate (the solid, unassuming Hulme) – in his own team. None of which should belittle a driver who knew what it took to succeed and went for it, tirelessly, for more than a decade during the sport’s most dangerous era.

    Then we have Lewis Hamilton, only just coming into maturity, still making the odd unforced error… and yet already widely regarded as the equal of anyone in the current crop.

    I see mine isn’t a popular choice, but it’s pretty clear that Lewis Hamilton deserves to go through.

  86. I dont see the point in comparing 2 drivers from completely different genres. I like the idea but if everyones gonna base things on statistics when we could just give the title to shumacher now. How can the point of Brabham building his own cars (although cool and impressive) be used against Lewis who could never build a car today.

    1. Thats the thing. There are a few champions who murder Schumacher on percentage poles and wins.

  87. I keep reading about how its only because of bias that it is even close, if that is the case then this is pretty pointless. Schumacher wins, anything else is heart over rulling the head (bias), he has most wins, most poles, most titles.
    I voted Hamilton, he’s the most exciting driver since Senna, he’s exceptionally talented and still at the beginning of his career and he will go on to be an all time great. You really cant compare someone who had 16 seasons v someone who’s done just 4 fairly though tbh.
    Also the Brabham build and drove his own car, well things were very different back then so to me, that doesnt mean to much. I think Brabham was a fantasic driver but i think Hamilton is better.

    1. well said.

  88. His championships were won through engineering nous and a limitless capacity for hard graft,

    I already voted but those make persuasive arguments to admire Brabham to me.

    1. I recommend you read The Jack Brabham Story by Doug Nye, one of the best books on F1 I’ve read.

  89. I voted Jack Brabham. In as much as I like Hamilton a lot as he is exciting, but I feel he has a lot to learn and is not as consistent as Jack.

    Sorry Hamilton, Jack won this close battle.

  90. I don’t buy the whole “Hamilton can’t build his own car, so Brabham’s team building doesn’t count” argument. During his last years at Ferrari, Schumacher was earning over 80 million USD a year from various sponsors. I bet that was more than the combined budgets of Minardi and Jordan in that era.

    Anybody who starts a team will need sponsors, they won’t foot the bill themselves, so money isn’t that big an issue. I think a truly great driver who’s been in the sport for long enough should have the know-how to run a racing team. It’s another matter that these days they don’t do it until after they retire (like Stewart, Prost and Lauda(Jaguar)).

    Given another 6-7 seasons in F1 Hamilton will be mature enough and in a position to start his own team, as Schumacher was after 2004. If he chooses not to, that’s a demerit against Hamilton. It makes Brabham’s work with his own team much more impressive.

    1. Jack brabham winning with his own team does not prove one little bit that he was a better driver than Hamilton. What makes you think that Lewis or any other driver would want to start such a project? Don’t get me wrong it is an amazing achievement, but it doesn’t actually make him a better driver at all

  91. I hear a lot of people saying Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007 but did he really?

    Hamilton: 109 points, 4 wins and 6 poles.
    Alonso: 109 points, 4 wins and 2 poles.

    So by that stat Lewis does win but here’s the kicker!

    Hamilton: 6 poles with 4 wins, 2/3 conversion rate.
    Alonso: 2 poles with 4 wins, 2/1 conversion rate.

    By this stat Alonso wins without doubt. It’s much easier to win from pole than from behind and Lewis just didn’t win them all. Schumacher is my favourite driver ever and he poled 68 times but won 91. To win a race from pole is easy to win it from behind shows a true champion.

    1. Ivan Vinitskyy
      25th January 2011, 14:57

      short-fueling…

  92. “RGBSF” Dont forget another stat mate,

    Alonso had 6years experience
    Hamilton none.

    By this stat Hamilton is better :P

    1. No doubt but Hamilton had team favouritism. After Monaco it was obvious that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes were backing him than Alonso. For Alonso to finish on 109 points having little team support and more retirements shows Alonso as a true World Champion. Another stat I like is this, Alonso is a Double World Champion and won it against the best ever, well not in 2005 but in 2006. Martin Brundle once said “You haven’t won a championship unless you’ve beat Schumacher” Spa 2005.

      1. Yes, Alonso won back-to-back titles in a…Renault, and against Schumacher at that. No mean feat. Hamilton beat Massa…just.

        Some say the 2008 Ferrari was a better car, which doesn’t really explain why Raikkonen in particular didn’t rate it. Well, it did win the constructors title, but maybe that was more to do with Hamilton having Kovalainen as is team mate?

        1. The fact is Hamilton beat alonso, so if Hamilton was alonso’s teamate for Renault, he would have won the title in 05 and 06.

          1. LMAO!! Oh no! That’s funny!

          2. I also want to try what you’ve been on ^^

          3. Alsono beat Hamilton in 2010, so that should count as well shouldn’t it by your own logic

          4. @kkarl

            That doesn’t prove anything, the fact is Hamilton beat fernando. As for Hamilton being the greatest, I do believe if you put Hamilton in an equal car against the greats he would out race all of them

        2. I’d say the F2008 was a vastly Superior car, probably one of the best Ferrari have ever produced in terms of speed but errors hindered the quality of the car. Raikkonen especially had a bad year, I personally blame it on him rather than Ferrari. Hamilton scraped his champion by a point (same for Kimi in 2007). Massa was the better driver in 2008 for sure and missed out, now with Alonso as his team mate it’s over for Felipe.

          1. @Damon

            Sorry but that statement is laughable. Alonso beat Schumacher at his best, Alonso was super quick in both 05 and 06. Qualifying especially, Hamilton wouldn’t of had a chance.

            Just imagine Vettel and Hamilton racing against Schumacher during the years of 2000-04, both would of been royally spanked by the Master.

          2. @ RGBSF

            I agree with all of your above comments, apart from the F2008 being “vastly” superior. It was superior but not by a large amount.

          3. @ rgbsf: so did fernando suddenly slow down from 07 onwards? Talk about a flash in the pan :)

          4. @ David A

            “Vastly” superior or just superior the F2008 was a much better car and faster car with only some errors letting it down.

          5. @ Damon

            Hamilton: Driving for the McLaren from youth system, brought up through the ranks. Full team backing and support not to mention his nationally.

            Alonso: Little to no support during the mid-season til the end and had more technical disadvantages to Lewis over the season.

            I’m just wondering how long you’ve been watching Formula 1 Damon. :D

            If your going to use that one then Please tell my why Alonso finished 4 points behind Vettel with the 3rd best car? :D

          6. I’ve probably been watching f1 longer than you, how long have you? Where is your proof that that the team favoured Lewis and received better technical support?

          7. when you consider the 2007 season and in particular ‘spygate’…it would be a brave person to suggest that
            1. when a team is fined $100m dollars
            2. deducted all it’s championship points
            3. information that lead to penalties came from a driver within the team who,
            4.wanted out of his contract

            that a team with nothing to gain would continue giving resources to that driver, knowing that the other driver who is engrained in the team is staying….I know who I would be putting my weight behind if I was the team principal going through all this.

          8. Where’s your evidence kkkarl? The fact is Hamilton beat alonso, the so called greatest driver in f1 in his first season. If anything lewis was originally the number 2 driver but suprised everyone by beating golden boy

          9. @ Damon

            My first Grand Prix was the 1996 Canadian Grand Prix. I was sitting in my living room and my uncle introduced me to the sport. He said “watch out for the red ones” and since then that’s all I’ve done.

            Orgoglio dela Ferrari!

            And Yours?

          10. The first gp that I can actually really remember watching was the 91 silverstone gp, but I vaguely remember Suzuka 90. ;)

          11. Surprised, by the comments you’ve been making in this post it seemed you’ve only been watching since Mr. Hamilton had joined F1.

          12. I find this funny – RGBSF has shown an amazing amount of bias; just take where it started from, saying Alonso’s better because he had less pole positions (and higher win conversion), totally ignoring the fact of refuelling.

            This does not do anything to establish your little idiom champions winning for the back, the only metric that would show who wins by this logic would be the overtaking stats.

          13. It’s because I do believe Hamilton is the best driver since schumacer

          14. @ Tom

            The main argument here was the claim Hamilton beat Alonso in 2007. 109/109 = Draw.

            Alonso proven his worth last year. 2nd, behind by 4 points in 3rd best car.

          15. I don’t agree that the Ferrari was the 3rd best car on the grid

          16. It’s debatable.

            Fastest Laps – McLaren win. 6>5,
            Pole Positions – Ferrari win. 2>1.
            Grand Prix Victories – Draw. 5 each. Alonso 5, Hamilton 3 & Button 2.

            World Constructors Championship:

            Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes finished 2nd. Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro finished 3rd.

            That maybe down to Massa being lets say extremely poor last season.

            It’s debatable.

          17. @Damon

            Evidence. Open any F1 book published in 2007 about the season, and you will find all the nitty gritty information about Mclaren and the role Alsono played in the whole Ferrari Mclaren matter. Interviews with Ron Dennis himself who states a very difficult employee and employer relationship existed during that time. If your have been watching since 90, then to suggest that Hamilton is better then Senna, Prost, Mansell is laughable. I’ve been attending F1 races since 89, so have seen in person some of the greats. Hamilton in 3 years hasn’t shown enough just yet to be considered the greatest….that’s just my 2 cents.

  93. This should be like the Clark vs Mansell round, where people noted how our Nige was so determined and could stong arm a car around a track, before duly noting that he still couldnt compare with the great Jim Clark. Mansell himself would say that. And if you went to Hamilton and asked whether he could compare to Brabham yet, he say that he couldnt as well.

    Just because you follow a driver, or that driver introduced you to F1, doesnt mean that you cant recognise the history of the sport, and the greats of days gone by.

  94. At one point, there were about 10 votes in it, but the Hamilton fanboys have done their work- alienating other fans, so Brabham has a bigger lead and will stroll this.

  95. I voted Brabham simply because its 3 world championships vs 1.

    Lewis is a fantastic driver don’t get me wrong but Brabham was better.

  96. Where did all those other voters come from? LOL

  97. I am a VERY large fan of Hamilton, and from the States, but his career is too young to be able to give him the vote. As said above, building his own car and converting potential titles; Brabham is the obvious choice. I would love to vote Hamilton best champion ever in ten years time.

    Also this is my first comment after lurking on this site for a year and a half. Thanks for your hard work Keith and others.

    1. Hey mate…just to make sure…you’re not Brian McBride are you…the former Fulham goal-poacher?

  98. This one seems to be the closest fought pairing so far. And I went for ol’ Black Jack, because there’s no denying his greatness as a driver, but to win three championships in the ‘unreliable’ era is quite an achievement.

    I am a fan of Hamilton’s attacking style, and although he is surely capable of becoming one of the all-time greats in the future, he’s still not up there with Brabham.

    1. I think he is a better driver than Brabahm though. Remember he beat Alonso who beat schumacher. I thinks it’s fair to say if Hamilton had the 94 Benneton, the 2000 to 2004 ferrari, the Coopers of Brabahm he would have beat them as team mates. Hamilton has never been beaten by a team mate.

      1. Hamilton has never been beaten on ‘points’ by a team mate, I think you’re trying to say. Like any other driver, Hamilton is beatable and has been beaten by his team mate.

        When does the voting end on this particular pairing? I think the Hamilton fans are hoping for a late comeback. LOL

        1. Come on lads! 11 more votes and I win my bet! LOL

  99. A user had created multiple accounts to try to influence the result of the poll. Their votes have been deleted.

    1. Oh bum! LOL

      Not totally unexpected, however. :)

  100. SennaTheG.O.A.T
    31st January 2011, 0:25

    It’s difficult to compare Brabham with Lewis..
    People forget how young is Lewis..He is 26 and he is the most fun to watch driver today.
    I vote for Lewis..Stewart said on him.
    “I remember Fangio won in Germany in 1957 with a super-human effort by the seat of his pants. That was Lewis Hamilton-type driving. You don’t do many of those. It happened way back in history and it’s happening today. Lewis is going to win races, I’ve no doubt about that.”-Sir Jackie Stewart

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