“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Felipe Massa, Fernando Alonso, Hockenheimring, 2010

New video of the German Grand Prix published by FOM reveals how Fernando Alonso urged Ferrari to order Felipe Massa to let him pass.

Alonso said to the team “I am much quicker than Felipe” and was told “we got your message”.

Because of the editing of the video it’s not clear how much time elapsed between that and the infamous coded instruction to Massa ordering him to let Alonso pass.

When Alonso tried to overtake Massa on lap 21 Rob Smedley told his driver, “he’s pretty close, he’s going to go, you’re going to have to defend.”

Massa was later advised, “you need to pick up the pace because Alonso is faster.” After the race Massa sounded thoroughly unimpressed when he told them, “so, what I can say? Congratulations to the team.”

Ferrari were handed a $100,000 fine for using “team orders that interfere with a race result” and “bringing the sport into disrepute”. The World Motor Sport Council will decide next month whether they will face further penalties.

The move was widely condemned by fans, with 78% on this site calling for Ferrari to be punished.

This is not the first time material published by FOM online has shed new light on the discussions between teams and drivers during a race. After the Turkish Grand Prix FOM published a new portion of McLaren’s team radio showing Lewis Hamilton was advised Jenson Button would not overtake him, shortly before Button did.

Ferrari team orders controversy

315 comments on ““I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders”

  1. Great article Kieth! Well we will see what will happen at the council, but why didn’t we hear those comments while watching the race?

    1. It’s great that we hear so much of the team radios more but it would be even better if we could to hear more of it and be able to hear it live and uncensored.

      It came up quite a bit at the FOTA F1 forum. They could, for example, make all the teams’ broadcast available online so fans could listen to their favourite drivers. That would be terrific.

      1. “I am much quicker than Felipe”

        Overtake him then.

        Here’s a video I shot from the stands of Alonso’s failed overtaking move. http://www.twitvid.com/C1GTX

        1. How about you try it yourself, overtaking someone in the same car on the same tyres in this years cars .. lets see how you will do ….
          (Alonso was pretty close to doing it)

          1. Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey? It’s possible with the right skill levels.

          2. I’m sorry, but suggesting Tommy should try doing it himself is just rubbish. The guys we are (or at least should) be talking about are highly paid, supposedly highly trained, talented and professional racing drivers who have been doing this since the age of around 6. Alonso, the 2 time WDC should have just passed Massa. If he didn’t want to for fear of doing a Vettel, then he should’ve taken a good 18 point haul instead.

          3. (Alonso was pretty close to doing it)

            Pretty close, yeah, but he didn’t make the pass.

            So he should have to try again.

            And if he doesn’t get it the second time, try again.

            If he still can’t make the pass, try again.

            If he never makes the pass, that’s just his tough luck. Whining about it won’t help, (although in this case it did….)

            Being in the same car is irrelevant also. He’s paid enough money to race so thats what he should be doing. End of.

          4. Lol bananarama.

            I’m a 21 year old uni student. Not a double world champion Ferrari F1 driver.

            He got alongside him, he should have had another go rather than sitting back and saying “this is ridiculous” and “I am much quicker than Felipe”

          5. I’ll do it… ha ha ……….

          6. You are completely wrong in your thinking! Tommy is correct: The onus is on Alonso to prove he deserves first place, and the way to do that is to overtake fairly and squarely, not by bleating! All Alonso proved was that he is good at bleating, which is why he got such a panning by the press. “That overtaking maneuver looked incredibly easy” (i.e. “My grandmother can drive better than that!”)
            Massa was in front because he used better tactics and skill than every other person on the track, and for someone to turn around and say “Your team mate wants to win, so you have to give the place to him” is a total affront in any sport and is proof alone that Alonso didn’t deserve the win. Every driver on that track wants to win, which is why they are there! That is why it is called a “sport”!
            Would Alonso being second have reduced the team’s points haul? No.
            There are only two arguments that might justify Alonso being given the undeserved win: 1) If Alonso could win the world championship and Massa believed he could not, then there would be a tactical advantage gained by Massa next year by his placement in the pitlane if he gave the win to Alonso, who in turn did actually win the WDC (so Massa obviously believed there was insufficient merit in this argument for him to give the place to Alonso or he would have given the place to him volunatarily); and 2) That by giving the place to Alonso there was a significantly bigger financial reward both to the team and to Massa than by Massa winning (and again, Massa knew this was not the case otherwise he would just have done so, and whatever Alonso’s financial rewards or losses are, that should be of no interest to Massa).
            In the pitlane position argument, the onus is upon Massa himself to decide that he can benefit from allowing Alonso to win, not upon the team to decide for him, because their interest is to have two cars on the track, one of which wins (i.e. either driver wins), so they can sell advertising. Since the team decided for him, it is again proof that Massa preferred the prestige and financial rewards of winning over any future tactical advantage that he may gain next year.
            Conclusion: Alonso won and will be financially rewarded for it (because he probably gets a very lucrative bonus for the win, and because he can use the win when negotiating future very lucrative contracts), at the expense of Massa (literally, because Massa didn’t win, therefore no bonus to him, nor will the argument “I gave up a win for my teammate” carry much weight when negotiating future contracts) all because Alonso, who’s skill and tactics (like every other driver on the track that day) were inferior to Massa’s, bleated long and loud.

        2. Charles Carroll
          4th August 2010, 14:20

          “overtake him, then”

          Agreed. If these drivers are truly the best in the world, then let them earn their positions by overtaking.

          Otherwise the Yam has the right to radio everyone to stop on the track until he can restart his car and finish his lap.

          1. Spot on Charles.

            After the millions invested in Formula 1 for car development, race organization, spectator travel costs and entrance fees, the salaries of all the people working for the teams and staging the event, the TV and press crews, the millions watching world wide, the millions paid to the drivers, etc. etc.

            And what do we get? Alonso radio-ing in his request to be allowed to pass. *That* any of us can do!

            If Formula 1 as a whole can appreciate the utter stupidity of wasting everyone’s money and time to hear someone moan on a radio, then maybe they’ll understand some of the disdain thrown the way of Alonso, Massa and Ferrari over this incident. Or any other team doing the same.

          2. Praveen Titus
            6th August 2010, 15:10

            To David BR

            “Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey” is widely perceived to be under strict team-orders to Button to back-off. In that case no “skill levels” were used than.

          3. Praveen, don’t defend Alonso by attacking others, do it by defending Alonso.

            The Hamilton situation was quite different, granted I can’t remember it exactly.

            But I also can’t remember it “widely” being known that team order were involved, nor do I think, having watched Button at other events this year, that Button will follow team orders if given.

            Praveen would you like to support your claim?

          4. Praveen Titus @ “Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey” is widely perceived to be under strict team-orders to Button to back-off. In that case no “skill levels” were used than.

            Do you actually watch Formula 1 or prefer getting your opinion ready-made from other people? ‘Widely perceived’ by whom anyway? Nobody I can remember reading who actually saw the race: everyone described it as a battle between team mates, contrasting it with the Red Bull drivers who’d spun off earlier.

          5. Thing is, if there was an instruction from McLaren to Button telling him to let Hamilton past again:

            1. They didn’t have much time to issue it
            2. FOM didn’t bother including it in their post-race highlights despite being the ones who revealed the “Jenson won’t pass you” radio clip

            So I’m doubtful there was such an order.

        3. I agree with you.

          However, I would suggest laying off the coffee when shooting video.

          1. Praveen Titus
            7th August 2010, 21:05

            To Mike:

            Whoever said that I was defending Alonso with my comment? I was only responding to David BR’s comment, was I not?

            To David BR:

            I will apologise to all concerned for using the phrase “widely perceived”, but I was only voicing my opinion. Maybe it is because I “actually watch Formula 1″ and perhaps you don’t that you aren’t getting my point.

            No one of the intelligence (I’m not a Jenson fan) of Jenson Button would make a successful overtaking move and leave the next corner so openly vulnerable to re-attack. Even if you don’t agree on that, why did Button suddenly lose so smuch ground after Hamilton re-took the lead? At the press conference Button responded by saying that after Hamilton got him back, he felt the need to save fuel and then back off! If that doesn’t give you an impression of team orders at work, I don’t know what will.

            Covert or not, I did feel there was some kind of understanding that Button violated in between but was then severely reminded of. Whether you agree he left the door open for re-attack for not, Button did significantly back off from that moment.

            But I understand Keith’s point as well. Once again, sorry for using the phrase “widely perceived.”

          2. Okay Praveen Titus, so we’ve established it’s just your opinion, not ‘widely perceived’ as you claimed. So what about the rest?

            >> No one of the intelligence (I’m not a Jenson fan) of Jenson Button would make a successful overtaking move and leave the next corner so openly vulnerable to re-attack.

            Aside from the mostly irrelevant question of whether Button is more intelligent than your average driver, rather than just more experienced say, it’s fairly clear from watching Hamilton’s pass that Button defends the position to the maximum, leaving a minimum amount of room after he realizes Hamilton is overtaking him –


            – which is why most people watching were fairly sure they were close to colliding. The video also shows you (a) how Button got past Hamilton unexpectedly, (b) why he didn’t try to take Hamilton again and backed off (he’d taken unfair advantage of Ham turning down his fuel settings while he didn’t), and (c) why Hamilton was so annoyed after the race. How all that fits into McLaren issuing team orders in favour of Hamilton baffles me – but you’re obviously entitled to your *own* opinion!

        4. If the team hadn’t told Massa to yield, Alonso would have attempted to overtake him, and would most probably have done it. But that could have been very risky for the team, as it might have produced an RBR-like incident, and taken both drivers out. Also think the flip side: if they had told the drivers to hold positions, that would have also been, in effect, a team order favoring Massa.

          1. “If the team hadn’t told Massa to yield, Alonso would have attempted to overtake him, and would most probably have done it.”

            Aside from his failed attempt at doing so earlier on in the race, why didn’t he?

            “Also think the flip side: if they had told the drivers to hold positions, that would have also been, in effect, a team order favoring Massa.”

            This might have been a disuised team order, rather than a blatant one like we saw, but it would have been felt amongst F1 fans that if Massa hadn’t pulled over, he would have earned his win, through his good start and defending from Alonso. As it turned out, Alonso’s win will be remembered not as one earned, but one that was gifted to him.

          2. No he wouldn’t. He spent half a race behind Liuzzi in Silverstone I could not overtake him. He also spent a couple of races shadowing Massa in the beginning of this season and could not overtake either. You guys are just too young… I’ve seen the best battles in F1 beeing fought between teamates (Senna & Prost, Mansel & Piquet, Villeneuve & Pironi..). Being faster than the guy in front is not enough to make you deserve the place – you have to overtake.

        5. Sideshow Bob
          4th August 2010, 19:42

          I think you are all missing the point. The essence of this whole matter is Ferrari’s drive to win the championship. They have the right to give themselves the best chance possible of winning the WDC.

          This is not about Alonso’s fortunes. This is about FERRARI’S fortunes. Alonso represents Ferrari’s better chance, by far, of taking the title. To argue that Ferrari should be required to hamstring themselves is ridiculous.

          1. “To argue that Ferrari should be required to hamstring themselves is ridiculous”

            That’s a good opinion. The Regulations however, right or wrong, dictate otherwise. And, they apply, do they not, to FERRARI.

          2. I should note – not *that* Keith

          3. Sideshow Bob
            5th August 2010, 5:11

            Yes, the regulations apply one-hundred percent to Ferrari. However, I think this leads us to the issue of the rule itself, which in my opinion shouldn’t stand. You can’t ask teams to fight for a championship and then institute rules to prevent them from maximizing their chances.

          4. i get what you’re saying about the result being the best for ferrari, but they already had a 1-2, the best result possible, so there was no need to (probably) order massa to hand position to alonso, and therfore have their result, and possible their championship, possible wiped

          5. @Sideshow Bob

            However the teams should do well to remember that F1 only exists because of the fans. The fans pay a lot of money to watch racing drivers race. If a team swap drivers around so blatantly that it clearly has not been a race then I am sorry but the fans have been cheated out of their hard earned money.

            And to those that think that asking drivers to hold position is as bad, think of it this way. If an order id given to a driver that does not depend on both cars concerned being in the same team then surely it is fine (ie asking Alonso to drop back from Webber could be for many reasons including overheating, break problems, fuel problems or mechanical issues as well as just being sensible and making sure points are earned). However there is no way Ferrari can directly ask Webber to let Alonso through so Ferrari should not be allowed to ask their own team mate to let him through. If they want to do this then there they need to get both drivers to agree (which would mean Massa agreeing to being officially a support act) and to work out ways to let the team mate through using racing tactics (ie missing a break point) which does not make it more right, but certainly makes it much harder to claim that a fix has happened).

          6. the only point to discuss here is why Massa and his engineer made it so obvious. Everybody in UK is blaming Alonso for the same other british drivers have done but never got investigated nor their radio convesations published. And yes, I refer again to Hockenheim 08, Hamilton-Kov

          7. @chemakal

            Don’t make this into a UK against Alonso issue. UK F1 fans are the most unbiased and knowledgeable in the world. It is also not just the UK fans that feel Alonso is partly to blame. Alonso has been a bully at every team he has been at and Ferrari is no exception. Knowing people inside Ferrari I can tell you that they were not happy by the way he has behaved since his arrival at the team and are certainly not happy with him bringing his criminal friends along with him).

            However yes massa was also partly to blame for how blatant the move was carried out, but if you read my previous post, this would not have happened if they had full agreement from massa that he is only a support act to Alonso and had planned this type of move with him before the race had even started. UK F1 fans are under no illusion that this has gone on in the past and will continue to go on but that does not make it right and does not make the way Ferrari handled the situation any better. Alonso was only a small number of points ahead of massa at the time and their are still quite a few races to go.

        6. Oh yes! Like Vettel did with a car 1 s faster

        7. Dry Crust, zzzz sorry felt sleep.

        8. his_majesty
          8th August 2010, 0:02

          I’m sorry, if you say “im faster” then pass him no if ands or buts end of story. No BS i can pass him, if he lets me by that is not racing that is BS. Point blank issue problem solved. No team orders if your faster than show me you are you F-ing pansi! Ferrari is trash show me real racing!!!!! This is BS. No grey area just black and white why can’t people see that. Outlandish… Don’t cry to me you F-ing babies. Show it with proof! F1 is going to the cry-babies Wah!! Why wont he let me pass!!!!!!!! ITS RACING IDIOT!!!!!!!

      2. I’m loving the team radios this year!

        But broadcasting it live would mean drivers and teams can’t swear and stuff, which is bound to happen. It would be great to hear though!

    2. Yes, why those comments? Why didn’t FIA let us hear all the comments talking to Ferrari about Fernando and Kubica? Why can’t we know the timming of the chat?

      FIA is manipulating even the radio comments.

    3. i heard alonso saying that he was much quicker than massa
      webs interview about team orders im quoting this from abc sports
      Webber added that team orders are commonplace and would rather see teams implementing them openly rather than slow pitstops or pre-arranged overtakes.

      “[It’s] very, very, very difficult to control team orders. They’ve been happening for 40 years in the sport and they’ll happen in the future,” he said.

      “Obviously for the fans, you can understand it was a different thing, but it’s happened so many times since 2002.

      “For the victory it’s a different thing, but the people who think it’s the first time it’s happened are absolutely dreaming. It’s not the only time.”

      “That’s the way it is. If you have a two-car team, three-car team, four-car team, there’s always going to be certain situations at certain tracks and certain points in championships where one car is going to need to be in a definite position and the team can influence that – so they will.

      “It’s better than doing a deliberate bad pitstop, or whatever.

      “You can do so many things to make it hard, so to try and have a rule which says that you cannot manipulate or have a team order in a grand prix is virtually impossible.

      “I could agree something tonight between you and me in the hotel and it would be done.

      “Much better to do something like this than something that’s hidden from everyone.

      “In this case, this team got the maximum result.”

    4. How about we call off the radio link altogether. make the pit board the only means of communications between the team and Driver? A SCREEN inside the car should inform the driver of track status, Yellow, Red, Green/ SC, at any given moment, and the Race control can send him a penalty warning via a short message. no voice chatting or otherwise.

      and just to make sure nothing happens, we can gag the drivers… but i don’t think that will pass with the FIA now that Mosley is out

  2. This is what you have for the summer break?

    1. I appreciate some people won’t be keen on the story but the material wasn’t available until now and, with Ferrari facing the WMSC next month, it could have a bearing on the outcome.

    2. Actually i am looking forward to the story on Keiths invterview/visit at Populous, designers of the Silverstone updates.

      But this is as fast as it gets with the FOM, it’s still well in time before the FIA WMC hearing in September

    3. Why so grumpy? Go out and find your own news if you’re not happy.

      1. I’ve been visiting, reading and participating in F1 Fanatic since more than two years.

        I just said what I feel about this new thread, and I’m pretty sure I have the right to disagree (as everybody else), as well as coming here and express it.

        So, if you don’t like to read what I want to comment, go out and find your own news elsewhere.

        1. Well said.

          (Your comment was a bit too short. Please go back and try again.)

      2. So if you don’t agree with something, meaning any FA bashing, or you have your own opinion about the news, rather than following the crowd, you have to leave the site… very democratic!

  3. Still talking about this? We all know who is the boss at Ferrari. Go Alonso !!

    1. Yes, it’s Emilio Botín and i still wonder why noone is talking about his presence at Ferrari’s pits and the gestures he made during the race in Hockenheim.

      1. Roger Carballo AKA Architrion
        4th August 2010, 12:25

        I could say that Emilio Botín is Hamilton’s boss too…. isn’t it funny?

        1. That’s brilliant !

        2. that was awesome!

  4. Yeah, or better when each team radio and it deosn’t get heard they can type at the bottom of the screen. Just like the stewerds decisions.

  5. Say what you want about FA’s ranting but illegal it ain’t

    1. It isn’t illegal, but it doesn’t help my view of him as whiney and petulant with a sense of entitlement.

  6. “I am much quicker than Felipe”. “We got your message”.

    I was watching the race on Swiss SF2 terrestrial and I heard these radio messages.

    I also heard Fernando’s “Ridiculous!” earlier or later on, I can’t remember.

    I’ve also been a big big Alonso fan. But Sunday’s race has made me change my opinion quite a lot. When the Red Bulls want to overtake each other, they try to overtake each other. But Fernando just complains to his team. Dreadful. Not racing at all.

    1. Fernando is a lot wiser than you then. At that moment he just couldn’t risk another 0 points race. The WDC is not about overtaking, it’s about getting points.

      1. So he should have just taken the points for second place.

        1. I think he had enough with second place because FA likes very much being 2nd all the time than first sometimes, but if the team (and I can imagine that massa agreed before) wanted FA first, then I don’t think he’s a saint.

        2. “This is ridiculous, guy”

      2. Maybe, but there is such a thing as winning ugly- accumulating points by any means and at any cost. Schumacher was the same, and that is why so many of his achievements have been devalued.

        There is such a thing as to win style. Without the help of team mates, dodgy decisions, illegal cars etc. Winning alone is not everything. That is why true fans will appreciate the glorious defeats of Stirling Moss, Nigel Mansell, Felipe Massa et al as much as any title success, even if the record books do not.

        1. “his achievements have been devalued”. DEVALUED by whom? YOU? HA HA HA

          1. By the majority of rational people.

          2. mateuss, rational means Britons?

          3. No, stop this British nonsense, I don’t know your nationality, but I’m not British and many people I know hold the same opinion (basically all who fallow f1), and even some of the Germans I’ve talked to feel the same.

          4. I’m not British…………
            I consider myself to be rational
            I agree with Mateuss…..

          5. I’m spanish and I can tell you that here in Spain we think otherwise, we follow F1 and we consider ourselves as rational as you.

            Of course it was ugly to see and the perfect person we had inside our heads and hearts begin to hide, but it happens with everybody.

            Let’s see how Vettel or Hamilton finish their carreers. We can only judge the intentionality of actions. FIA wants to show intentionality in this “free” radio chat but at the end we don’t have much to blame Fernando.

          6. bernification
            6th August 2010, 1:50

            Well, it’s amazing how having a veto over opponents cars helps you win.

            Yep, that revelation made him go up in my esteem.

        2. Alonso is a talented driver with a ruthless streak (similar to Senna, Schumaker etc). He wants to win at all costs.

          He knows he knows he has the best chance of bringing the title to Ferrari this year (no disrespect to Massa – he’s my personal favourite) and we’ll take it anyway he can.

          1. I do agree with you although you can’t really compare Alonso to Schumacher, sorry. You will never see Fernando trying to crash his car against his main rivals for example. Never. He’s a much more honest driver than a lot people think. Go Alonso, take them all by storm!!

          2. Steve, what about Vettel’s reactions, doent he want to win at all cost? What about Hamilton? Did’t he want to win in 08 at Kov’s costs?

        3. Felipe Massa? glorious? when? I want to point out that apart of FA responsability, the real guilty is Massa who at the end let FA pass. And whatever you can think about FA in Singapur, who intentionally crashed his car was picket, the glorious.

          glorious? well, thik bad about Fernando but be fair with the rest.

          1. Neither came out well from the episode, it’s true. I know he was in a tough position coming back this season from a big accident, but he shouldn’t have stood down. Easy to say from afar, though. Alonso like Schumacher uses whatever’s going for him ‘off-track’ i.e. in terms of team politics. And it was the ‘safer’ option since he evidently couldn’t get past otherwise.

          2. “Felipe Massa? glorious? when?”

            Ned Flanders was clearly referring to his “glorious defeat” at Brazil 2008. You know, the race voted the best of the last 10 years.

          3. For every season there are what-ifs, but Massa would actually be champion if it wasn’t for the (proved to be) fixed race. Now this isn’t misfortune on his or his rivals behalf, it was a conceived result and it was allowed to stand.

            Personally I think Hamilton deserved the title more that season, but it’s interesting to think that the WDC of 2008 rests on a fixed result (and would be different were the results of that race to be annulled).

        4. “I’m Spanish” comments looks me like stupid comments I have read before “I was Alonso fan and now I am changed”. Pathetic way to convince someone.

        5. Sideshow Bob
          5th August 2010, 5:06

          At the end of the day, Michael Schumacher has seven titles. Moss, Mansell, and Massa, with all due respect, total one championship. There is a certain prestige gap that cannot be closed by whatever intangibles you’re thinking of.

    2. Yup. It was on the BBC as well. I’m surprised this is considered new evidence.

      It’s a bit tiresome though to consistently hear anything Alonso says labeled “whining”. And I’m nowhere near a fan of his. Why do people seem incapable of taking what Alonso says at face value, when people like Webber who clearly has at least similar levels of craftiness (see for example: “not bad for a no. 2 driver”), are consistently given the benefit of doubt indeed praised for their pushing the teams to support them?

  7. “When the Red Bulls want to overtake each other, they crash.”
    Fixed that for you ;)

  8. Hehe. Touché, my friend. :D

  9. Keith, was there any more to the infamous Smedley-Massa exchange?
    I am just wondering as it seems to me we have heard ‘Do you understand the message?’ but not Massa’s response, which to me is crucial in determining whether he worded it in a way so that he said ‘let Alonso pass’, to make it his decision, or whether he just said ‘yes I understand’, and obeyed the team.
    Of course, his silence and slowing down may have been the required answer, but I am not too certain about the timing between the message and the move to be certain about it.

    1. I think Massa didn’t answer and that’s because smedley had to almost order with shouts. I’m sure Ferrari has enough knowledge to give orders in a very politically correct way, as British do. Perhaps what they lack is the British discipline.

  10. What a ****** from pseudo Alonso fans – as known as British Alonso antifans.
    “Oh, i was Fernando fan, but now after this I am not”,
    OMG WHAT ? stop talking this nonsense.
    If you hate Alonso, just say it.
    You just pretend like Alonso fan and then make it look like Alonso has done something so bad, that you stop being his fan.
    He said he was faster than Felipe. So what? You wanted him to make impossible and overtake Felipe? It’s impossible to overtake as long as you arent 3 seconds faster. Vettel was almost 2 seconds faster than Fernando, and he couldn’t overtake him. Alonso didn’t said that Felipe should let him past.

    1. Anecdotally, I’ve had a few people say to me “I used to like Alonso but…” Same happened after Singapore. I think a lot of it is sincere.

      Vettel was almost 2 seconds faster than Fernando, and he couldn’t overtake him.

      Where did you get that figure from? It was actually just under 0.7s/lap (assuming you’re talking about Hungary).

      1. Keith i’m feeling sorry about that…but i think you hate ferrari and alonso a lot…. Why this repeat that ferrari must be punished??? Tell us your view… Must ferrari be punished further??? And if ferrari punished further why not mclaren be facing the WMSC for the team order in Germany 2008 (what a hypocricy)??

        1. Kimi and Schumi are also in this hate list.

        2. Alonso finished four seconds ahead of Massa in Germany 2010. Hamilton was 12 seconds and five places ahead of Kovi at the end of Germany 2008, including a safety car period.

          Kovi let Lewis past, I can’t remember if there was any communication from McLaren on the radio, but he would have been intelligent enough to know what to do.

          Given that Smedley’s message to Massa was a clear team order, I think you have the intelligence to see the subtleties and the difference.

          1. OMG! You think that if ferrari done it like mclaren in 2008 and cheat to us more carefully….that is ok??? And don’t think that this is a silly rule?? Who is going to cheat better??? That is what you say??? Lewis had to pass and other cars (massa and piquet if i can remember…) so he pushed till the end…Alonso was first and had no sense to push further…. Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM

            All the people in the stand pointing the two mclaren’s guys and laughing…

        3. but i think you hate ferrari and alonso a lot.

          Nope. I’d give my eye teeth for a 458…

          Why this repeat that ferrari must be punished?

          I don’t believe I have. I’ve written one opinion piece on what happened at Hockenheim from which you can correctly draw the conclusion that I think they should be punished (and what I think about the Kovalainen thing is in here too):

          Why the team orders rule must stay

          1. No no! :) i don’t think you hate ferrari road cars….but ferrari F1 racing cars (and alonso too..) :( !! In the other article you say that we din’t have criticism because we didn’t have all the pit to radio conversations… I think that is better to know the truth…if a message is team order or not… AND not the teams try to code their messages and to cheat to us and think that we are silly or we forget the past and see only the ferrari thing…. It’s not better the driver back outbrake the front driver because the team ask him to do it (with a well coded message) and try to cheat to us… I want them to be clear and not hypocritics! All of them… Mr. Whitmarsh said that NEVER in his 20 year mclaren participation favoured one driver…but DC said (on bbc) that in his years to mclaren favoured hakkinen and DC maked room to pass hakkinen…

          2. Keith, your reply about hating Ferrari and Alonso in general really made me think about your intentions with your blog. I read it because I think you write great articles and have insights that I can’t find anywhere else.

            Is it your intention to remain objective with your blog and articles? Your opinion pieces almost make me cringe in disappointment. It’s almost as if you should title it F1Fanatic with the exception of near favoritism.

            It’s quite clear that you’re not an Alonso fan. (I think “urge” is a bit of a stretch in the title) I couldn’t care less for Alonso, but your opinion pieces make this less of an objective blog (if that’s what you’re aiming for) and more of an inclination toward you personal attitudes concerning teams and drivers. I would consider using outside writers for opinion pieces and stick with your journalistic style that I’ve come to enjoy. No hate intended, just my two cents.

            And this nationality crap has to go. British vs. Spanish vs. who the hell cares. Arguing about who’s a fan of who because you’re from wherever is just childish. If you’re going to make a compelling argument use some common sense and intellect.

            Also, stipulations are ridiculous: Alonso should have but couldn’t, Massa shouldn’t have because he doesn’t have the ***** to stand up to the team. Make a convincing case and get on with it.

            By the way, I’m assuming I’m going to receive lot of flack for my own lack of contribution. But I live North Carolina and by the time I get around to reading these articles they’re already 4 pages long. I just enjoy Keith’s insight and I must admit I lurk.

          3. Is it your intention to remain objective with your blog and articles?

            As far as is reasonably possible.

            It’s quite clear that you’re not an Alonso fan.

            I don’t watch F1 races cheering on any driver or team in particular. I just want to see a good race.

            your opinion pieces make this less of an objective blog (if that’s what you’re aiming for) and more of an inclination toward you personal attitudes concerning teams and drivers. I would consider using outside writers for opinion pieces and stick with your journalistic style that I’ve come to enjoy.

            Appreciate the feedback. To be honest, in addition to the more ‘normal’ type of articles, I’m never going to stop writing opinion pieces (of which this is not one – here’s one: Why the team orders rule must stay) but perhaps labelling them more clearly as stories and comment would be worthwhile.

            And this nationality crap has to go. British vs. Spanish vs. who the hell cares. Arguing about who’s a fan of who because you’re from wherever is just childish. If you’re going to make a compelling argument use some common sense and intellect.

            Couldn’t agree more. It is seriously tedious.

      2. My vote to RobertsLV

      3. Yeah, I’m more and more an ex-Alonso fan too.

        I became a fan when he was battling in his Minardi with Verstappen at Hockenheim. I was extatic when he moved to McLaren, but of course that didn’t go too well. The low point being when he tried to blackmail the team into making him the No1 driver.

        This season he’s simply disappointing. The way he completely psyched himself out in Valencia and Silverstone was an utter disgrace. The words coming out of his mouth were even worse.

        We’ll see how the WMSC rules on Hockenheim, but I can’t see how they will go lenient on Ferrari. They haven’t apologized or repented one bit.

        His greed could actually mean the end of his championship hopes. 18 points would have been better than 0 (and perhaps Vettel will pick up 10 extra points too).

        1. Come the court case they’ll get down on their knees and apologise, just wait.

          There’s no point pleading innocence, they’ve already been found guilty.

      4. Keith, sure about 0.7 s/ lap? Just take this 2 figures inot account: Q3: 1.214 s difference, Fastest lap on race: 0.833 s difference. Being over 1/2 the race behind Alonso, 2 s might be too much, but 0.7? Back to Hockenheim, Alonso-Massa Q3: 0.497s

        1. Yes. Click on the link in my text for an explanation.

    2. Flipe is no victim in this scandal, he was a active participant. As for being impossible to overtake. Hamilton got Massa at the same corner in 2008 and he wasn’t 3 seconds faster.

      1. Yes, and even his team-mate Kovalainen, same curve in the most glorious overtaking I have ever seen. You remember?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaMvfJEN9KU

  11. If radio to car becomes available to all nobody outside a team will understand what anyone is saying as it will all be coded and done much better than this was. How can a team discuss any plan of action with everyone listening? There are parts of the sport that we do not get to see or hear and before people start moaning about it how many team talks do we hear from football managers before a game? The sport is a tactical battle with strategies changing throughout the race and for that reason they will always be filtered by the FIA.

    1. Mark Hitchcock
      4th August 2010, 11:43

      A much more extensive feed is already available to people like Ted in the pits, I’m sure the other teams listen in to that so the privacy issue regarding strategy isn’t really a good argument for denying the feed to the public.

  12. Is this Bernie stoking the fires again?

    1. got to keep F1 in the news during the summer :D

    2. Bernie understands even bad publicity for a team or driver is good publicity FOM.

  13. They may have crashed but a least rb are letting them battle for the number one slot if alonso is so good why does he need a slower car to pull over he was moaning he couldn’t get past a virgin car in one race this year until button overtook them both in one move proper racing driver no wonder Ferrari wanted him so bad he has shown he has no problem with cheating to win like Singapore let him prove he’s number 1 by racing.

    1. my god your all so out of touch
      Webbers engineer told him to go into fuel saving mode as he did Vettle tried to shoot past
      as that was the only way to get vettle past webber, but webber was not having any of it and closed the door
      pls watych the race with eyes wide open without rose tinted lenses

      1. Vettel all of a sudden started pushing like crazy 3 laps before Webber was told to slow down. He ran away from Hamilton and closed right up to Webber.

        He obviously was told that Webber would be slowing down soon.

        The FIA really should have investigated that incident.

        That’s the only way to uphold the team order rule. Everytime something suspicious happens, check it out. Just like they did with McLaren after Monaco 2007.

        1. good point but Monaco result was never going to change because Alonso was faster than hamilton
          Lewises dad complained and they found that even though both drivers were told to slow down
          Hamster was faster than Raikinon
          and Alonso was faster than Lewis
          Denis acted to avoid Lewis crashing out
          not to stop him overtaking Alonso
          because he was never going to take alonsoso no comparison sorry

          1. That day, Hamilton denounced his own team, and I don’t think that was because he wanted to finish just behind FA.

            I think Ham’s way is the right way. if massa had denounced his own team instead of crying now we won’t be talking about it for 2 weeks.

            And.. where’s FA’s blame???

          2. That’s rather shortsighted, sorry.

            The FIA DID find a lot of things where the team held Hamilton back.

            For instance, they gave Hamilton 5 laps more fuel during qualifying. So ‘fuel corrected’ Hamilton was faster 3 tenths faster than Alonso.

            They didn’t let Hamilton use his extra fuel and called him in early.

            Hamilton WOULD have passed Alonso after his second stop easily.

            Again Hamilton had more fuel and again they called him in early. Hamilton was catching at 2 seconds a lap. In the end he was right behind Alonso when he came out. Given 3 to 5 laps extra he would have been well ahead of Alonso.

            So yeah to the uninformed fan, Hamilton was slower. The truth is, he was only slower because he was always carrying more fuel. That cost him around half a second a lap.

            In fact Hamilton’s strategy would have given him the win. If McLaren had LET him.

            The FIA accepted McLaren’s reason for ruining Hamilton’s strategy (and stopping him from taking the win) though. McLaren claimed they wanted to stop Hamilton early every time because they were afraid of a safety car.

  14. If you want to know what lap the first transmission was made, it was on lap 19 (I think), based on http://www.fia.com/public/f1-2010/images/ger-f1-2010-chart.jpg (with the overtake on lap 49)

    1. The First one was when Alonso said “I am much quicker than Felipe”

      1. I worked this out because they lapped Glock’s Virgin (and Senna’s HRT in front of it) on the same lap as the transmission.

        1. but those radio messages are cut in by the FOM, not sychronized with the actual tv-footage.
          It could have been when Massa successfully blocked Alonsos pass there, or it could have been at any time during the race before lap 49.

    2. How have you worked that out?

  15. Shinedown – Sound of Madness. Great choice of song, FOM ;)

  16. Keith, when he was behind Alonso, Red bull flex wing wasn’t working as good as in clean air.
    Ok, 2 seconds – i was exaggerating, but sometimes he could lap almost second faster. The point is, that in dirty air his speed advantage dissapeared, and he couldn’t overtake him, so he decided to back off to set the fastest lap of the race.
    The same was in Hockenheim. When Alonso got close behind Felipe, he was slowed down.

    1. I appreciate that. Still, Alonso took advantage of traffic to have a pop at Massa, and he didn’t make it work. He might have had another chance with the Virgins later on (innuendo ahoy!) but he went off the track trying to keep up with Massa. So I don’t think it was clear-cut.

      1. Alonso could have made the move stick if he was more aggressive but he had to give more room as Massa is his team mate.

        Ferrari does not have much of a chance of the WCC so what is wrong pooling their efforts for the WDC. It is the second half of the season and Massa and Alonso are not 1 and 2 in the WDC.

        The spirit of the team order rule is till one driver is out of the championship running. Why should theoritical chance be the basis for this? Massa is on life support in the drivers champonship, it is fair for the team to make the call that his 2010 is done for him even if all the fans against (80% of this blog)Alonso do not agree with it.

        1. Agree with this post – also for everone calling for Alonso to rather overtake if he’s quicker, note that there was scarcely an overtake that day. If the bulls couldn’t do it, how much harder is it against your own team mate in the same equipment? Hamiltons retake of Button in Turkey required then to bang wheels remember? Ferrari can not afford another DNF. Was the only thing ferrari could do IMO.

          1. So they banged wheels, they were racing! Isn’t that what it’s suppose to be about. DNF are also part of racing.
            Ferrari had a choice and they chose to manipulate a results and not to race. Notice I didn’t say FA or FM, just Ferrari.

        2. I do agree with this post as well. This whole thing is a lot of nonsense but it keeps us entertained :).

  17. Not really good music. All of this situation at Ferrari it really looks like they had some sort of agreement about the slower one letting the faster guy past with some parameters (gap smaller than 3 or 5 secs, the one behind closing up the gap, etc.) and all of them were pretty much aware what was going to happen when Felipe was not able to drive away from Alonso constantly.

    If not team orders, it was clearly team tactics to arrange who was in front, no excuses about it. I doubt Massa did let him by from his own conviction, even if he had a theoretic possibility to just ignore the teams wishes.

  18. What was said —

    Alonso: “I am much quicker than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Fernado is quicker than you. Can you confirm that you understood that message?”

    What I heard —

    Alonso: “I’m stuck behind Felipe. I told the Spanish press yesterday that I could still win the title, but I’m going to look really silly if I don’t win this race when I’m faster than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image than the team’s. Do you think you could move over, and we’ll show him what it means to be a Ferrari driver?”

    1. Stop this nonsenscical hypocritical nuisance. Its a team game.

      1. I’m sorry, hypocritical? Ferrari are the hypocrites here: they attack everyone in sight for allegedly manipulating a race outcome in Valencia, but when they go ahead and interfere with the racing, it’s perfectly justified! That’s hypocracy for you. Formula 1 might be a team sport, but that doesn’t give Ferrari the right to go and brazenly manipulate the outcome of a race because to do so would give them a better championship standing. I can understand that and would even support it if we were in the final phase of the championship and Massa was no longer a championship contender, but Ferrari have simply gone ahead and done whatever they felt like and expect to get away with it because they’re Ferrari and they’re under the mistaken impression that they’re entitled to play by a different set of rules. Ferrari need to be slapped down and put in their place as hard as possible. Hopefully this will come in the form of a ban from the Italian Grand Prix, with the FIA making it absolutely clear that Ferrari’s failure to show is a direct result of their actions. If Alonso were to win the World Championship this year because of what happened in Hockenheim, I think I’d stop watching the sport. So who’s the real hypocrite here? Me, or Ferrari?

        And in case you hadn’t noticed, the above post is intended as a joke.

        1. if this race you think that manipulated then what mclaren done in Hockenheim 2008??? That whas not manipulation -team order- to heiki deliberately give the position to the FASTER then hamilton…Heiki whas mathematical out of the championship there?? NO!!! Some people just remember what they want to remember… That is hypocritic views….

          1. I don’t remember Hockenheim 2008, because I didn’t watch it. My entire 2008 was spent doing something much more important that staying up until midnight to watch the races. As a result, I can only comment on what I know.

            Whatever the case, the FIA cannot retroactively change the results of a race that happened two years ago, just as Ferrari cannot be allowed to get away with it simply because there is an histoical precedent. Starting now, teams need to be called into account for their actions.

          2. RE Hockenheim 2008: Lewis drove a storming race to victory, but part of that was a lovely concession of position by Heikki. The perfect number 2 driver.

          3. McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco — because of that they received a penalty and that could be the same one to Ferrari this year…

            So, McLaren was “hypocrite” too and used team orders well before Germany 2008, but clearly to favor Alonso against Hamilton…

            A collateral effect os this mess is that because of Massa fail and Alonso demonization by our press and world press — and by the fans, as we can see here —, there’s an interesting phenomenon happening in Brazil: Hamilton is strongly increasing his fan base among F1 fans here.

          4. Not Hockenheim 2008 again. Let’s go to the film. Hamilton blew by Kovalainen, just like he did everyone else on the track(twice), including Felipe Massa, like he was chained to a post. Are people really suggesting that Kovalainen should have made a drama out of it by making Hamilton pass on the outside instead of the inside or whatever was contrary to Hamilton’s first choice? What joke. Did Kovalainen come to virtual stop on the track to let Hamilton by? No, he just failed to do the only thing that would keep him back—hit him at the apex of turn 4. If you examine the defense of Massa against Hamilton’s move, the only difference was the Massa chose to pointlessly drive off the track after he lost the line in turn 4. What about Piquet, was he under orders from Dennis to yield to Hamilton? It seemed that Piquet all but drove off the track to get out of the way of a pointless clash and preserve the best possible position for him, 2nd. So any analogy between these two situations is reduction to absuridity, so to speak.

            Let me make the filing now required by Tifosi: I’m not British.

        2. Maybe Ferrari felt like: when others manipulate and cheat, thats ok. So lets try cheating, maybe it will be ok too.
          I’m just guessing though.

          1. I think many confuse manipulating a race result and manipulating the order of your cars in a race. The former will most likely (should)get you thrown out of F1, the latter has been happening since the beginning(legally and illegaly).

          2. Ferrari have always felt there should be one set of rules for themselves and one set for everyone else. Remember 2007, when they prosecuted McLaren? It wasn’t the first time someone was caught with their car designs – Toyota engineers had access to Ferrari documents several years earlier, but no action was ever taken. And why not? Because Toyota weren’t racing Ferrari. Ferrari have consistently proven that they will do whatever they feel like to win a race, and the rules be damned for it. Rules are for lesser mortals. They’ve convinced themselves that they are Formula 1 and that the sport would die if they left tomorrow. The problem with that statement is that they need every single Formula 1 fan to feel the loss – and I already know that if they announced their intention to quit, my initial reaction would be “Nice knowing you”.

            And in the case of Valencia, that wasn’t McLaren interfering with the rules. It was a result of a late steward ruling. But in Germany, it was all Ferrari.

        3. I see Prisioner, you have a very selective memory. Remember 2007 but not 2008 (much more important things to do). Anyway, lets stick on 2010. Team orders by Ferrari ended up with FA in front of FM: NO HARM TO OTHER TEAMS, NO POINTS STOLEN TO OTHER DRIVERS. Manipulation races I call when: Hmilton changes 4 times direction so Kubica cant overtake: no penalty. Hamilton finishes Qualifying pushing his car: no penalty. Hamilton races in the pit stops twice against SV and FA: no penalty. And of course Valencia, Hamilton deliveraty stops when he sees SC approaching to leave Alonso behind it, misscalculating and ilegally passing the SC. Gets the penalty 20 laps later to hold position. ALL THIS IN 9 GPs, STEALING POINTS TO OTHER DRIVERS. THIS IS THE maFIA MANIPULATING

          1. This talk of the FIA “manipulating” things to favour Hamilton bears no relation to the facts.

            The FIA have not shied away from punishing Hamilton when he deserved it – Europe 2010, Australia 2009 and France 2008 are just three examples.

            Hamilton’s line-changing in front of Petrov (not Kubica) in all likelihood did little to prevent Petrov passing. Hamilton was trying to brake the tow, not weaving to stop Petrov getting alongside. Still, the stewards want to discourage that kind of driving so they gave him a reprimand. That was exactly the right response: we haven’t seen anyone do it since, have we? (More on that here: Drivers as stewards make presence felt as Hamilton gets black-and-white flag)

            And ‘racing in the pits’, as you call it, has been done by other drivers including Alonso (Germany 2008) and, just as with Hamilton, has gone unpunished.

            Returning to the point – because this article is about Alonso, not Hamilton – the test of whether something is considered a team order is not whether other teams were ‘harmed’ or other drivers lost points. According to the regulations, team orders which affect the result of the race are prohibited.

            Clearly, without reference to what may or may not have happened at other Grands Prix, Ferrari affected the result of the race at Hockenheim by using team orders. I don’t think anyone can seriously dispute that.

    2. Totally ridiculous and definitely not funny.

    3. ” “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image ”

      To be fair, right then I think Alonso was thinking of the points not if he’s going to get any TV time and magazine deals.

      Becken you make a good point but

      “McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco ”

      I can actually see why they did that. It was a strategy call which is perfectly fine but throughout the year Fernando and Lewis were allowed to race. I think it was wise they didn’t at Monaco because it is well Monaco and if Seb and Web can crash in Turkey then God knows the carnage that could happen at the principality :P

  19. The FA fans that turn their back on him because a TV presenter blasted cheat on BBC after the german GP and lier regarding Singapore 2008 are not real fans
    it is widely noticed that the british reporting team BBC who are Ex ITV F1 are pro Hamilton and Anti Alonso
    Ferrari have done nothing wrong
    it is the presenters that started a hornets nest
    if it had been Hamilton or Red Bull i doubt we would have heard a thing said about it
    still this is my opinion
    Maclaren cheated Alonso out of a back to back WDC in 2007 to back Hamilton that was team orders wasent it
    Denis said after the China GP we are racing Alonso as well as the Ferraris
    problem is that Alonso was in the other Maclaren F1 car
    Funny aint it

    1. LOL, so those are not real fans/not real Alonso fans, so what???

    2. Ferrari manipulated a race outcome. They brought the sport into disrepute. Tell me again that they did “nothing wrong”.

      And McLaren did not cheat Alonso out of a title. Alonso was the architect of his own demise. He assumed he would lead the team and that Hamilton would be subservient. He lost the championship in Australia, not Brazil. By the time the 2007 Chinese Grand Prix came about, Alonso had already distanced himself from the team.

      If Alonso can do no wrong, perhaps you can answer me this: how come he hasn’t won a single race without help since traction control was banned? He won in Singapore 2008, but only because Piquet crashed to benefit him. He won in Bahrain 2010, but only because Vettel’s car gave up. And he won in Germany 2010, but only because Massa moved over for him. Explain that, please.

      1. In fact, he also won in Japan 2008. Don’t remember the race, so maybe you can tell me how it was cheated there.
        (Just want to mention that I’m not an Alonso fan)

      2. Erm *cough* Japan 2008 *cough*

        Though that was also because everyone fell over themselves at the first corner.

        1. Every single race in the history of F1 will have sort of circumstance that could have affected the result.

      3. Yes, of course Seb broke down his car in Bahrein on purpose, just to help Fernando (because Botin bribed him, that’s why)

    3. Actually if McLaren had given Button the instruction to let Hamilton pass at this point of the season, the uproar would have been much greater.

      First of all, Button is just as popular as Hamilton in Britain, and secondly McLaren is very focal about giving equal chances.
      They wouldn’t hear the last of it for another couple of years from fans and the british media.

      1. Besides PM, I doubt Schumacher in his prime could have jumped in the R28 or 29 and drove it to victory.

        1. If he could have won three times in the awful Ferrari F310, then he’d have at least done as well as FA in the R28.

    4. Be careful Mikee, you are presenting your feelings as fact; they are not the samething.

    5. michael mair
      4th August 2010, 17:39

      absolutely spot on ! ps anyone wishing to join the we hate fernando club should contact mr E Jordan . c/o BBC television

    6. I didn’t need the british press to confirm what I saw and heard nor did most people who watched the race. Ferrari manipulated the outcome of that race in Alonso’s favor because Felipe did as he was told and then had the nerve to poo poo about it for the rest of the day.
      And as for Alonso getting cheated out of WDC by McLaren in 2007, that’s an illusion to people unwilling to face the fact that a rookie was his equal. McLaren told him (Alonso)if he wanted it then win it. Kimi won it, by being the best in Brazil, it’s as simple as that.

      1. Correction, Kimi won it by being left to pass by his Ferrari team mate Felipe who was the best and fastest driver that day. So it may not be as simple as that. Otherwise FA should have been the winner that year while LH was “hanging around” the circuit with his Mclaren.

  20. This is WAY overblown. Ferrari was punished with the fine. Alonso was faster – it wasn’t like they impeded other drivers and let a SLOWER Alonso past! If you can’t be a little careful with your teammate, what’s the point? Also telling Hamilton that Button won’t attack – that is not a team order to tell Button “not to attack”? Telling a faster driver he must hold station is much worse than making it quasi safe for the faster driver to get through!

    Alonso may or may not have been able to scrap his way through – but he was faster and not a single other driver or team was affected (unlike the Hamilton SC incident or Vettel holding up the entire field in Hungary – that he shot himself in the foot doesn’t matter). Again, Ferrari was punished – why should it not be enough for them – when reprimands and feckless penalties are enough for other teams??

    1. Ferrari was punished with the fine.

      Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life. So tell me again that a fine of a hundred thousand dollars is punishment enough. At the very least, Ferrari should be banned for a race or two.

      1. The only time Massa was faster than Alonso was at the start when Vettel pushed Alonso against the wall. The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother. They were punished – no not black flagged by the marshalls or banned thereafter which could have been done.

        If you’re talking about Singapore and Renault – and really believe deliberately causing an accident, risking the lives of people and totally changing the outcome of the race (Alonso was what 6th?) are equivalent to this… Well, that pretty much says it all.

        Disrepute? Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.

        Having Button (or anyone else) “hold” station is much more “manipulation” – than allowing a faster sister car through.

        1. I doubt the team orders rule will be scrapped. Not when audiences react so poorly to a team using them.

          1. It should be – I say screw the audience who don’t like/understand team orders. They can watch tiddley winks or something. Maybe then we can stop messing with F1 for the sake of “the show”, *gag reflex*

          2. Not true, most of the time at least. Certainly, there are team orders pretty much in every race and every team. And of course they affect the results of the race, but only rarely there is a reaction from the audience.
            The problem with the Schuey-Rubens affair in 2002 and the recent Fernando-Felipe thing (beyond the anti-Ferrari bias in British media) is that both Rubens and Felipe (or maybe I should say Rob Smedley) complied with the TO quite grudgingly, making a big show of it. Audiences do accept TO but they don’t want them to be so blatant.
            It sounds cynical, I know (go ahead with TO but don’t make it obvious), but the point is that the rule is unenforceable and should go.

          3. Sorry, DASMAN, you can call me old-fashioned, but I’d rather see good racing decided by a driver’s skill rather than a race outcome decided by the teams because it suits them better.

        2. “The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother”…

          “Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.”

          So you are saying scrap Sunday and racing all together, we know from qualifying who’s fastest anyway, right?

          1. IF people like things black and white – F1 and many, many other things are not for them.

            Qualifying is NOT the race and there is a reason “they play the game”… does it really need to be spelled out? The fastest car in qualifying isn’t always the fastest car in the race – breakdowns, SC, weather etc. all have a role in the outcome of a race. But to say all team orders are the same, or it’s always cheating is unbelievably naive. It’s like comparing Singapore ’08 and Ferrari easing a faster sister car through. Currently the rules prohibit ANY team orders… Ferrari were caught and penalized. IF the penalty was not enough… each has their own opinion – and they may still face further sanctions. But the “fanboys” will insist that team orders, masked or not are ok when told to “hold” station etc. when it involves “their” team.

            I don’t know if any of us are in F1 – I’m certainly not – but look at the comments from say Mark Webber – I think his thoughts carry a bit more weight than any of ours on what REALLY happens. The “holier than thou” attitude held by many… is the definition of hypocrisy…

      2. “Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life.”

        Comparing Singapore 2008 and this incident is nothing but silly. Ferrari’s actions swapped the order of only their two cars around, with no danger to spectators or marshalls. Renault’s actions not only endagered lives, but jumbled the order of the whole field, heavily disadvantaging Massa, Raikkonen and even Hamilton, while allowing Alonso and Rosberg (blameless guy) to magically lead the field.

      3. #Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute# where you born yesterday? the sport has been brought into disrepute SO many times before this…1989, 1990,1994,1997,2002,…. the list could never end.

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