“I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders

Posted on | Author Keith Collantine

Felipe Massa, Fernando Alonso, Hockenheimring, 2010

New video of the German Grand Prix published by FOM reveals how Fernando Alonso urged Ferrari to order Felipe Massa to let him pass.

Alonso said to the team “I am much quicker than Felipe” and was told “we got your message”.

Because of the editing of the video it’s not clear how much time elapsed between that and the infamous coded instruction to Massa ordering him to let Alonso pass.

When Alonso tried to overtake Massa on lap 21 Rob Smedley told his driver, “he’s pretty close, he’s going to go, you’re going to have to defend.”

Massa was later advised, “you need to pick up the pace because Alonso is faster.” After the race Massa sounded thoroughly unimpressed when he told them, “so, what I can say? Congratulations to the team.”

Ferrari were handed a $100,000 fine for using “team orders that interfere with a race result” and “bringing the sport into disrepute”. The World Motor Sport Council will decide next month whether they will face further penalties.

The move was widely condemned by fans, with 78% on this site calling for Ferrari to be punished.

This is not the first time material published by FOM online has shed new light on the discussions between teams and drivers during a race. After the Turkish Grand Prix FOM published a new portion of McLaren’s team radio showing Lewis Hamilton was advised Jenson Button would not overtake him, shortly before Button did.

Ferrari team orders controversy

315 comments on ““I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders”

  1. Great article Kieth! Well we will see what will happen at the council, but why didn’t we hear those comments while watching the race?

    1. It’s great that we hear so much of the team radios more but it would be even better if we could to hear more of it and be able to hear it live and uncensored.

      It came up quite a bit at the FOTA F1 forum. They could, for example, make all the teams’ broadcast available online so fans could listen to their favourite drivers. That would be terrific.

      1. “I am much quicker than Felipe”

        Overtake him then.

        Here’s a video I shot from the stands of Alonso’s failed overtaking move. http://www.twitvid.com/C1GTX

        1. How about you try it yourself, overtaking someone in the same car on the same tyres in this years cars .. lets see how you will do ….
          (Alonso was pretty close to doing it)

          1. Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey? It’s possible with the right skill levels.

          2. I’m sorry, but suggesting Tommy should try doing it himself is just rubbish. The guys we are (or at least should) be talking about are highly paid, supposedly highly trained, talented and professional racing drivers who have been doing this since the age of around 6. Alonso, the 2 time WDC should have just passed Massa. If he didn’t want to for fear of doing a Vettel, then he should’ve taken a good 18 point haul instead.

          3. (Alonso was pretty close to doing it)

            Pretty close, yeah, but he didn’t make the pass.

            So he should have to try again.

            And if he doesn’t get it the second time, try again.

            If he still can’t make the pass, try again.

            If he never makes the pass, that’s just his tough luck. Whining about it won’t help, (although in this case it did….)

            Being in the same car is irrelevant also. He’s paid enough money to race so thats what he should be doing. End of.

          4. Lol bananarama.

            I’m a 21 year old uni student. Not a double world champion Ferrari F1 driver.

            He got alongside him, he should have had another go rather than sitting back and saying “this is ridiculous” and “I am much quicker than Felipe”

          5. I’ll do it… ha ha ……….

          6. You are completely wrong in your thinking! Tommy is correct: The onus is on Alonso to prove he deserves first place, and the way to do that is to overtake fairly and squarely, not by bleating! All Alonso proved was that he is good at bleating, which is why he got such a panning by the press. “That overtaking maneuver looked incredibly easy” (i.e. “My grandmother can drive better than that!”)
            Massa was in front because he used better tactics and skill than every other person on the track, and for someone to turn around and say “Your team mate wants to win, so you have to give the place to him” is a total affront in any sport and is proof alone that Alonso didn’t deserve the win. Every driver on that track wants to win, which is why they are there! That is why it is called a “sport”!
            Would Alonso being second have reduced the team’s points haul? No.
            There are only two arguments that might justify Alonso being given the undeserved win: 1) If Alonso could win the world championship and Massa believed he could not, then there would be a tactical advantage gained by Massa next year by his placement in the pitlane if he gave the win to Alonso, who in turn did actually win the WDC (so Massa obviously believed there was insufficient merit in this argument for him to give the place to Alonso or he would have given the place to him volunatarily); and 2) That by giving the place to Alonso there was a significantly bigger financial reward both to the team and to Massa than by Massa winning (and again, Massa knew this was not the case otherwise he would just have done so, and whatever Alonso’s financial rewards or losses are, that should be of no interest to Massa).
            In the pitlane position argument, the onus is upon Massa himself to decide that he can benefit from allowing Alonso to win, not upon the team to decide for him, because their interest is to have two cars on the track, one of which wins (i.e. either driver wins), so they can sell advertising. Since the team decided for him, it is again proof that Massa preferred the prestige and financial rewards of winning over any future tactical advantage that he may gain next year.
            Conclusion: Alonso won and will be financially rewarded for it (because he probably gets a very lucrative bonus for the win, and because he can use the win when negotiating future very lucrative contracts), at the expense of Massa (literally, because Massa didn’t win, therefore no bonus to him, nor will the argument “I gave up a win for my teammate” carry much weight when negotiating future contracts) all because Alonso, who’s skill and tactics (like every other driver on the track that day) were inferior to Massa’s, bleated long and loud.

        2. Charles Carroll
          4th August 2010, 14:20

          “overtake him, then”

          Agreed. If these drivers are truly the best in the world, then let them earn their positions by overtaking.

          Otherwise the Yam has the right to radio everyone to stop on the track until he can restart his car and finish his lap.

          1. Spot on Charles.

            After the millions invested in Formula 1 for car development, race organization, spectator travel costs and entrance fees, the salaries of all the people working for the teams and staging the event, the TV and press crews, the millions watching world wide, the millions paid to the drivers, etc. etc.

            And what do we get? Alonso radio-ing in his request to be allowed to pass. *That* any of us can do!

            If Formula 1 as a whole can appreciate the utter stupidity of wasting everyone’s money and time to hear someone moan on a radio, then maybe they’ll understand some of the disdain thrown the way of Alonso, Massa and Ferrari over this incident. Or any other team doing the same.

          2. Praveen Titus
            6th August 2010, 15:10

            To David BR

            “Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey” is widely perceived to be under strict team-orders to Button to back-off. In that case no “skill levels” were used than.

          3. Praveen, don’t defend Alonso by attacking others, do it by defending Alonso.

            The Hamilton situation was quite different, granted I can’t remember it exactly.

            But I also can’t remember it “widely” being known that team order were involved, nor do I think, having watched Button at other events this year, that Button will follow team orders if given.

            Praveen would you like to support your claim?

          4. Praveen Titus @ “Hamilton retaking Button at Turkey” is widely perceived to be under strict team-orders to Button to back-off. In that case no “skill levels” were used than.

            Do you actually watch Formula 1 or prefer getting your opinion ready-made from other people? ‘Widely perceived’ by whom anyway? Nobody I can remember reading who actually saw the race: everyone described it as a battle between team mates, contrasting it with the Red Bull drivers who’d spun off earlier.

          5. Thing is, if there was an instruction from McLaren to Button telling him to let Hamilton past again:

            1. They didn’t have much time to issue it
            2. FOM didn’t bother including it in their post-race highlights despite being the ones who revealed the “Jenson won’t pass you” radio clip

            So I’m doubtful there was such an order.

        3. I agree with you.

          However, I would suggest laying off the coffee when shooting video.

          1. Praveen Titus
            7th August 2010, 21:05

            To Mike:

            Whoever said that I was defending Alonso with my comment? I was only responding to David BR’s comment, was I not?

            To David BR:

            I will apologise to all concerned for using the phrase “widely perceived”, but I was only voicing my opinion. Maybe it is because I “actually watch Formula 1” and perhaps you don’t that you aren’t getting my point.

            No one of the intelligence (I’m not a Jenson fan) of Jenson Button would make a successful overtaking move and leave the next corner so openly vulnerable to re-attack. Even if you don’t agree on that, why did Button suddenly lose so smuch ground after Hamilton re-took the lead? At the press conference Button responded by saying that after Hamilton got him back, he felt the need to save fuel and then back off! If that doesn’t give you an impression of team orders at work, I don’t know what will.

            Covert or not, I did feel there was some kind of understanding that Button violated in between but was then severely reminded of. Whether you agree he left the door open for re-attack for not, Button did significantly back off from that moment.

            But I understand Keith’s point as well. Once again, sorry for using the phrase “widely perceived.”

          2. Okay Praveen Titus, so we’ve established it’s just your opinion, not ‘widely perceived’ as you claimed. So what about the rest?

            >> No one of the intelligence (I’m not a Jenson fan) of Jenson Button would make a successful overtaking move and leave the next corner so openly vulnerable to re-attack.

            Aside from the mostly irrelevant question of whether Button is more intelligent than your average driver, rather than just more experienced say, it’s fairly clear from watching Hamilton’s pass that Button defends the position to the maximum, leaving a minimum amount of room after he realizes Hamilton is overtaking him –

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7IiR6Mgwyk

            – which is why most people watching were fairly sure they were close to colliding. The video also shows you (a) how Button got past Hamilton unexpectedly, (b) why he didn’t try to take Hamilton again and backed off (he’d taken unfair advantage of Ham turning down his fuel settings while he didn’t), and (c) why Hamilton was so annoyed after the race. How all that fits into McLaren issuing team orders in favour of Hamilton baffles me – but you’re obviously entitled to your *own* opinion!

        4. If the team hadn’t told Massa to yield, Alonso would have attempted to overtake him, and would most probably have done it. But that could have been very risky for the team, as it might have produced an RBR-like incident, and taken both drivers out. Also think the flip side: if they had told the drivers to hold positions, that would have also been, in effect, a team order favoring Massa.

          1. “If the team hadn’t told Massa to yield, Alonso would have attempted to overtake him, and would most probably have done it.”

            Aside from his failed attempt at doing so earlier on in the race, why didn’t he?

            “Also think the flip side: if they had told the drivers to hold positions, that would have also been, in effect, a team order favoring Massa.”

            This might have been a disuised team order, rather than a blatant one like we saw, but it would have been felt amongst F1 fans that if Massa hadn’t pulled over, he would have earned his win, through his good start and defending from Alonso. As it turned out, Alonso’s win will be remembered not as one earned, but one that was gifted to him.

          2. No he wouldn’t. He spent half a race behind Liuzzi in Silverstone I could not overtake him. He also spent a couple of races shadowing Massa in the beginning of this season and could not overtake either. You guys are just too young… I’ve seen the best battles in F1 beeing fought between teamates (Senna & Prost, Mansel & Piquet, Villeneuve & Pironi..). Being faster than the guy in front is not enough to make you deserve the place – you have to overtake.

        5. Sideshow Bob
          4th August 2010, 19:42

          I think you are all missing the point. The essence of this whole matter is Ferrari’s drive to win the championship. They have the right to give themselves the best chance possible of winning the WDC.

          This is not about Alonso’s fortunes. This is about FERRARI’S fortunes. Alonso represents Ferrari’s better chance, by far, of taking the title. To argue that Ferrari should be required to hamstring themselves is ridiculous.

          1. “To argue that Ferrari should be required to hamstring themselves is ridiculous”

            That’s a good opinion. The Regulations however, right or wrong, dictate otherwise. And, they apply, do they not, to FERRARI.

          2. I should note – not *that* Keith

          3. Sideshow Bob
            5th August 2010, 5:11

            Yes, the regulations apply one-hundred percent to Ferrari. However, I think this leads us to the issue of the rule itself, which in my opinion shouldn’t stand. You can’t ask teams to fight for a championship and then institute rules to prevent them from maximizing their chances.

          4. i get what you’re saying about the result being the best for ferrari, but they already had a 1-2, the best result possible, so there was no need to (probably) order massa to hand position to alonso, and therfore have their result, and possible their championship, possible wiped

          5. @Sideshow Bob

            However the teams should do well to remember that F1 only exists because of the fans. The fans pay a lot of money to watch racing drivers race. If a team swap drivers around so blatantly that it clearly has not been a race then I am sorry but the fans have been cheated out of their hard earned money.

            And to those that think that asking drivers to hold position is as bad, think of it this way. If an order id given to a driver that does not depend on both cars concerned being in the same team then surely it is fine (ie asking Alonso to drop back from Webber could be for many reasons including overheating, break problems, fuel problems or mechanical issues as well as just being sensible and making sure points are earned). However there is no way Ferrari can directly ask Webber to let Alonso through so Ferrari should not be allowed to ask their own team mate to let him through. If they want to do this then there they need to get both drivers to agree (which would mean Massa agreeing to being officially a support act) and to work out ways to let the team mate through using racing tactics (ie missing a break point) which does not make it more right, but certainly makes it much harder to claim that a fix has happened).

          6. the only point to discuss here is why Massa and his engineer made it so obvious. Everybody in UK is blaming Alonso for the same other british drivers have done but never got investigated nor their radio convesations published. And yes, I refer again to Hockenheim 08, Hamilton-Kov

          7. @chemakal

            Don’t make this into a UK against Alonso issue. UK F1 fans are the most unbiased and knowledgeable in the world. It is also not just the UK fans that feel Alonso is partly to blame. Alonso has been a bully at every team he has been at and Ferrari is no exception. Knowing people inside Ferrari I can tell you that they were not happy by the way he has behaved since his arrival at the team and are certainly not happy with him bringing his criminal friends along with him).

            However yes massa was also partly to blame for how blatant the move was carried out, but if you read my previous post, this would not have happened if they had full agreement from massa that he is only a support act to Alonso and had planned this type of move with him before the race had even started. UK F1 fans are under no illusion that this has gone on in the past and will continue to go on but that does not make it right and does not make the way Ferrari handled the situation any better. Alonso was only a small number of points ahead of massa at the time and their are still quite a few races to go.

        6. Oh yes! Like Vettel did with a car 1 s faster

        7. Dry Crust, zzzz sorry felt sleep.

        8. his_majesty
          8th August 2010, 0:02

          I’m sorry, if you say “im faster” then pass him no if ands or buts end of story. No BS i can pass him, if he lets me by that is not racing that is BS. Point blank issue problem solved. No team orders if your faster than show me you are you F-ing pansi! Ferrari is trash show me real racing!!!!! This is BS. No grey area just black and white why can’t people see that. Outlandish… Don’t cry to me you F-ing babies. Show it with proof! F1 is going to the cry-babies Wah!! Why wont he let me pass!!!!!!!! ITS RACING IDIOT!!!!!!!

      2. I’m loving the team radios this year!

        But broadcasting it live would mean drivers and teams can’t swear and stuff, which is bound to happen. It would be great to hear though!

    2. Yes, why those comments? Why didn’t FIA let us hear all the comments talking to Ferrari about Fernando and Kubica? Why can’t we know the timming of the chat?

      FIA is manipulating even the radio comments.

    3. i heard alonso saying that he was much quicker than massa
      webs interview about team orders im quoting this from abc sports
      Webber added that team orders are commonplace and would rather see teams implementing them openly rather than slow pitstops or pre-arranged overtakes.

      “[It’s] very, very, very difficult to control team orders. They’ve been happening for 40 years in the sport and they’ll happen in the future,” he said.

      “Obviously for the fans, you can understand it was a different thing, but it’s happened so many times since 2002.

      “For the victory it’s a different thing, but the people who think it’s the first time it’s happened are absolutely dreaming. It’s not the only time.”

      “That’s the way it is. If you have a two-car team, three-car team, four-car team, there’s always going to be certain situations at certain tracks and certain points in championships where one car is going to need to be in a definite position and the team can influence that – so they will.

      “It’s better than doing a deliberate bad pitstop, or whatever.

      “You can do so many things to make it hard, so to try and have a rule which says that you cannot manipulate or have a team order in a grand prix is virtually impossible.

      “I could agree something tonight between you and me in the hotel and it would be done.

      “Much better to do something like this than something that’s hidden from everyone.

      “In this case, this team got the maximum result.”

    4. How about we call off the radio link altogether. make the pit board the only means of communications between the team and Driver? A SCREEN inside the car should inform the driver of track status, Yellow, Red, Green/ SC, at any given moment, and the Race control can send him a penalty warning via a short message. no voice chatting or otherwise.

      and just to make sure nothing happens, we can gag the drivers… but i don’t think that will pass with the FIA now that Mosley is out

  2. This is what you have for the summer break?

    1. I appreciate some people won’t be keen on the story but the material wasn’t available until now and, with Ferrari facing the WMSC next month, it could have a bearing on the outcome.

    2. Actually i am looking forward to the story on Keiths invterview/visit at Populous, designers of the Silverstone updates.

      But this is as fast as it gets with the FOM, it’s still well in time before the FIA WMC hearing in September

    3. Why so grumpy? Go out and find your own news if you’re not happy.

      1. I’ve been visiting, reading and participating in F1 Fanatic since more than two years.

        I just said what I feel about this new thread, and I’m pretty sure I have the right to disagree (as everybody else), as well as coming here and express it.

        So, if you don’t like to read what I want to comment, go out and find your own news elsewhere.

        1. Well said.

          (Your comment was a bit too short. Please go back and try again.)

      2. So if you don’t agree with something, meaning any FA bashing, or you have your own opinion about the news, rather than following the crowd, you have to leave the site… very democratic!

  3. Still talking about this? We all know who is the boss at Ferrari. Go Alonso !!

    1. Yes, it’s Emilio Botín and i still wonder why noone is talking about his presence at Ferrari’s pits and the gestures he made during the race in Hockenheim.

      1. Roger Carballo AKA Architrion
        4th August 2010, 12:25

        I could say that Emilio Botín is Hamilton’s boss too…. isn’t it funny?

        1. That’s brilliant !

        2. that was awesome!

  4. Yeah, or better when each team radio and it deosn’t get heard they can type at the bottom of the screen. Just like the stewerds decisions.

  5. Say what you want about FA’s ranting but illegal it ain’t

    1. It isn’t illegal, but it doesn’t help my view of him as whiney and petulant with a sense of entitlement.

  6. “I am much quicker than Felipe”. “We got your message”.

    I was watching the race on Swiss SF2 terrestrial and I heard these radio messages.

    I also heard Fernando’s “Ridiculous!” earlier or later on, I can’t remember.

    I’ve also been a big big Alonso fan. But Sunday’s race has made me change my opinion quite a lot. When the Red Bulls want to overtake each other, they try to overtake each other. But Fernando just complains to his team. Dreadful. Not racing at all.

    1. Fernando is a lot wiser than you then. At that moment he just couldn’t risk another 0 points race. The WDC is not about overtaking, it’s about getting points.

      1. So he should have just taken the points for second place.

        1. I think he had enough with second place because FA likes very much being 2nd all the time than first sometimes, but if the team (and I can imagine that massa agreed before) wanted FA first, then I don’t think he’s a saint.

        2. “This is ridiculous, guy”

      2. Maybe, but there is such a thing as winning ugly- accumulating points by any means and at any cost. Schumacher was the same, and that is why so many of his achievements have been devalued.

        There is such a thing as to win style. Without the help of team mates, dodgy decisions, illegal cars etc. Winning alone is not everything. That is why true fans will appreciate the glorious defeats of Stirling Moss, Nigel Mansell, Felipe Massa et al as much as any title success, even if the record books do not.

        1. “his achievements have been devalued”. DEVALUED by whom? YOU? HA HA HA

          1. By the majority of rational people.

          2. mateuss, rational means Britons?

          3. No, stop this British nonsense, I don’t know your nationality, but I’m not British and many people I know hold the same opinion (basically all who fallow f1), and even some of the Germans I’ve talked to feel the same.

          4. I’m not British…………
            I consider myself to be rational
            I agree with Mateuss…..

          5. I’m spanish and I can tell you that here in Spain we think otherwise, we follow F1 and we consider ourselves as rational as you.

            Of course it was ugly to see and the perfect person we had inside our heads and hearts begin to hide, but it happens with everybody.

            Let’s see how Vettel or Hamilton finish their carreers. We can only judge the intentionality of actions. FIA wants to show intentionality in this “free” radio chat but at the end we don’t have much to blame Fernando.

          6. bernification
            6th August 2010, 1:50

            Well, it’s amazing how having a veto over opponents cars helps you win.

            Yep, that revelation made him go up in my esteem.

        2. Alonso is a talented driver with a ruthless streak (similar to Senna, Schumaker etc). He wants to win at all costs.

          He knows he knows he has the best chance of bringing the title to Ferrari this year (no disrespect to Massa – he’s my personal favourite) and we’ll take it anyway he can.

          1. I do agree with you although you can’t really compare Alonso to Schumacher, sorry. You will never see Fernando trying to crash his car against his main rivals for example. Never. He’s a much more honest driver than a lot people think. Go Alonso, take them all by storm!!

          2. Steve, what about Vettel’s reactions, doent he want to win at all cost? What about Hamilton? Did’t he want to win in 08 at Kov’s costs?

        3. Felipe Massa? glorious? when? I want to point out that apart of FA responsability, the real guilty is Massa who at the end let FA pass. And whatever you can think about FA in Singapur, who intentionally crashed his car was picket, the glorious.

          glorious? well, thik bad about Fernando but be fair with the rest.

          1. Neither came out well from the episode, it’s true. I know he was in a tough position coming back this season from a big accident, but he shouldn’t have stood down. Easy to say from afar, though. Alonso like Schumacher uses whatever’s going for him ‘off-track’ i.e. in terms of team politics. And it was the ‘safer’ option since he evidently couldn’t get past otherwise.

          2. “Felipe Massa? glorious? when?”

            Ned Flanders was clearly referring to his “glorious defeat” at Brazil 2008. You know, the race voted the best of the last 10 years.

          3. For every season there are what-ifs, but Massa would actually be champion if it wasn’t for the (proved to be) fixed race. Now this isn’t misfortune on his or his rivals behalf, it was a conceived result and it was allowed to stand.

            Personally I think Hamilton deserved the title more that season, but it’s interesting to think that the WDC of 2008 rests on a fixed result (and would be different were the results of that race to be annulled).

        4. “I’m Spanish” comments looks me like stupid comments I have read before “I was Alonso fan and now I am changed”. Pathetic way to convince someone.

        5. Sideshow Bob
          5th August 2010, 5:06

          At the end of the day, Michael Schumacher has seven titles. Moss, Mansell, and Massa, with all due respect, total one championship. There is a certain prestige gap that cannot be closed by whatever intangibles you’re thinking of.

    2. Yup. It was on the BBC as well. I’m surprised this is considered new evidence.

      It’s a bit tiresome though to consistently hear anything Alonso says labeled “whining”. And I’m nowhere near a fan of his. Why do people seem incapable of taking what Alonso says at face value, when people like Webber who clearly has at least similar levels of craftiness (see for example: “not bad for a no. 2 driver”), are consistently given the benefit of doubt indeed praised for their pushing the teams to support them?

  7. “When the Red Bulls want to overtake each other, they crash.”
    Fixed that for you ;)

  8. Hehe. Touché, my friend. :D

  9. Keith, was there any more to the infamous Smedley-Massa exchange?
    I am just wondering as it seems to me we have heard ‘Do you understand the message?’ but not Massa’s response, which to me is crucial in determining whether he worded it in a way so that he said ‘let Alonso pass’, to make it his decision, or whether he just said ‘yes I understand’, and obeyed the team.
    Of course, his silence and slowing down may have been the required answer, but I am not too certain about the timing between the message and the move to be certain about it.

    1. I think Massa didn’t answer and that’s because smedley had to almost order with shouts. I’m sure Ferrari has enough knowledge to give orders in a very politically correct way, as British do. Perhaps what they lack is the British discipline.

  10. What a ****** from pseudo Alonso fans – as known as British Alonso antifans.
    “Oh, i was Fernando fan, but now after this I am not”,
    OMG WHAT ? stop talking this nonsense.
    If you hate Alonso, just say it.
    You just pretend like Alonso fan and then make it look like Alonso has done something so bad, that you stop being his fan.
    He said he was faster than Felipe. So what? You wanted him to make impossible and overtake Felipe? It’s impossible to overtake as long as you arent 3 seconds faster. Vettel was almost 2 seconds faster than Fernando, and he couldn’t overtake him. Alonso didn’t said that Felipe should let him past.

    1. Anecdotally, I’ve had a few people say to me “I used to like Alonso but…” Same happened after Singapore. I think a lot of it is sincere.

      Vettel was almost 2 seconds faster than Fernando, and he couldn’t overtake him.

      Where did you get that figure from? It was actually just under 0.7s/lap (assuming you’re talking about Hungary).

      1. Keith i’m feeling sorry about that…but i think you hate ferrari and alonso a lot…. Why this repeat that ferrari must be punished??? Tell us your view… Must ferrari be punished further??? And if ferrari punished further why not mclaren be facing the WMSC for the team order in Germany 2008 (what a hypocricy)??

        1. Kimi and Schumi are also in this hate list.

        2. Alonso finished four seconds ahead of Massa in Germany 2010. Hamilton was 12 seconds and five places ahead of Kovi at the end of Germany 2008, including a safety car period.

          Kovi let Lewis past, I can’t remember if there was any communication from McLaren on the radio, but he would have been intelligent enough to know what to do.

          Given that Smedley’s message to Massa was a clear team order, I think you have the intelligence to see the subtleties and the difference.

          1. OMG! You think that if ferrari done it like mclaren in 2008 and cheat to us more carefully….that is ok??? And don’t think that this is a silly rule?? Who is going to cheat better??? That is what you say??? Lewis had to pass and other cars (massa and piquet if i can remember…) so he pushed till the end…Alonso was first and had no sense to push further…. Look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM

            All the people in the stand pointing the two mclaren’s guys and laughing…

        3. but i think you hate ferrari and alonso a lot.

          Nope. I’d give my eye teeth for a 458…

          Why this repeat that ferrari must be punished?

          I don’t believe I have. I’ve written one opinion piece on what happened at Hockenheim from which you can correctly draw the conclusion that I think they should be punished (and what I think about the Kovalainen thing is in here too):

          Why the team orders rule must stay

          1. No no! :) i don’t think you hate ferrari road cars….but ferrari F1 racing cars (and alonso too..) :( !! In the other article you say that we din’t have criticism because we didn’t have all the pit to radio conversations… I think that is better to know the truth…if a message is team order or not… AND not the teams try to code their messages and to cheat to us and think that we are silly or we forget the past and see only the ferrari thing…. It’s not better the driver back outbrake the front driver because the team ask him to do it (with a well coded message) and try to cheat to us… I want them to be clear and not hypocritics! All of them… Mr. Whitmarsh said that NEVER in his 20 year mclaren participation favoured one driver…but DC said (on bbc) that in his years to mclaren favoured hakkinen and DC maked room to pass hakkinen…

          2. Keith, your reply about hating Ferrari and Alonso in general really made me think about your intentions with your blog. I read it because I think you write great articles and have insights that I can’t find anywhere else.

            Is it your intention to remain objective with your blog and articles? Your opinion pieces almost make me cringe in disappointment. It’s almost as if you should title it F1Fanatic with the exception of near favoritism.

            It’s quite clear that you’re not an Alonso fan. (I think “urge” is a bit of a stretch in the title) I couldn’t care less for Alonso, but your opinion pieces make this less of an objective blog (if that’s what you’re aiming for) and more of an inclination toward you personal attitudes concerning teams and drivers. I would consider using outside writers for opinion pieces and stick with your journalistic style that I’ve come to enjoy. No hate intended, just my two cents.

            And this nationality crap has to go. British vs. Spanish vs. who the hell cares. Arguing about who’s a fan of who because you’re from wherever is just childish. If you’re going to make a compelling argument use some common sense and intellect.

            Also, stipulations are ridiculous: Alonso should have but couldn’t, Massa shouldn’t have because he doesn’t have the ***** to stand up to the team. Make a convincing case and get on with it.

            By the way, I’m assuming I’m going to receive lot of flack for my own lack of contribution. But I live North Carolina and by the time I get around to reading these articles they’re already 4 pages long. I just enjoy Keith’s insight and I must admit I lurk.

          3. Is it your intention to remain objective with your blog and articles?

            As far as is reasonably possible.

            It’s quite clear that you’re not an Alonso fan.

            I don’t watch F1 races cheering on any driver or team in particular. I just want to see a good race.

            your opinion pieces make this less of an objective blog (if that’s what you’re aiming for) and more of an inclination toward you personal attitudes concerning teams and drivers. I would consider using outside writers for opinion pieces and stick with your journalistic style that I’ve come to enjoy.

            Appreciate the feedback. To be honest, in addition to the more ‘normal’ type of articles, I’m never going to stop writing opinion pieces (of which this is not one – here’s one: Why the team orders rule must stay) but perhaps labelling them more clearly as stories and comment would be worthwhile.

            And this nationality crap has to go. British vs. Spanish vs. who the hell cares. Arguing about who’s a fan of who because you’re from wherever is just childish. If you’re going to make a compelling argument use some common sense and intellect.

            Couldn’t agree more. It is seriously tedious.

      2. My vote to RobertsLV

      3. Yeah, I’m more and more an ex-Alonso fan too.

        I became a fan when he was battling in his Minardi with Verstappen at Hockenheim. I was extatic when he moved to McLaren, but of course that didn’t go too well. The low point being when he tried to blackmail the team into making him the No1 driver.

        This season he’s simply disappointing. The way he completely psyched himself out in Valencia and Silverstone was an utter disgrace. The words coming out of his mouth were even worse.

        We’ll see how the WMSC rules on Hockenheim, but I can’t see how they will go lenient on Ferrari. They haven’t apologized or repented one bit.

        His greed could actually mean the end of his championship hopes. 18 points would have been better than 0 (and perhaps Vettel will pick up 10 extra points too).

        1. Come the court case they’ll get down on their knees and apologise, just wait.

          There’s no point pleading innocence, they’ve already been found guilty.

      4. Keith, sure about 0.7 s/ lap? Just take this 2 figures inot account: Q3: 1.214 s difference, Fastest lap on race: 0.833 s difference. Being over 1/2 the race behind Alonso, 2 s might be too much, but 0.7? Back to Hockenheim, Alonso-Massa Q3: 0.497s

        1. Yes. Click on the link in my text for an explanation.

    2. Flipe is no victim in this scandal, he was a active participant. As for being impossible to overtake. Hamilton got Massa at the same corner in 2008 and he wasn’t 3 seconds faster.

      1. Yes, and even his team-mate Kovalainen, same curve in the most glorious overtaking I have ever seen. You remember?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaMvfJEN9KU

  11. If radio to car becomes available to all nobody outside a team will understand what anyone is saying as it will all be coded and done much better than this was. How can a team discuss any plan of action with everyone listening? There are parts of the sport that we do not get to see or hear and before people start moaning about it how many team talks do we hear from football managers before a game? The sport is a tactical battle with strategies changing throughout the race and for that reason they will always be filtered by the FIA.

    1. Mark Hitchcock
      4th August 2010, 11:43

      A much more extensive feed is already available to people like Ted in the pits, I’m sure the other teams listen in to that so the privacy issue regarding strategy isn’t really a good argument for denying the feed to the public.

  12. Is this Bernie stoking the fires again?

    1. got to keep F1 in the news during the summer :D

    2. Bernie understands even bad publicity for a team or driver is good publicity FOM.

  13. They may have crashed but a least rb are letting them battle for the number one slot if alonso is so good why does he need a slower car to pull over he was moaning he couldn’t get past a virgin car in one race this year until button overtook them both in one move proper racing driver no wonder Ferrari wanted him so bad he has shown he has no problem with cheating to win like Singapore let him prove he’s number 1 by racing.

    1. my god your all so out of touch
      Webbers engineer told him to go into fuel saving mode as he did Vettle tried to shoot past
      as that was the only way to get vettle past webber, but webber was not having any of it and closed the door
      pls watych the race with eyes wide open without rose tinted lenses

      1. Vettel all of a sudden started pushing like crazy 3 laps before Webber was told to slow down. He ran away from Hamilton and closed right up to Webber.

        He obviously was told that Webber would be slowing down soon.

        The FIA really should have investigated that incident.

        That’s the only way to uphold the team order rule. Everytime something suspicious happens, check it out. Just like they did with McLaren after Monaco 2007.

        1. good point but Monaco result was never going to change because Alonso was faster than hamilton
          Lewises dad complained and they found that even though both drivers were told to slow down
          Hamster was faster than Raikinon
          and Alonso was faster than Lewis
          Denis acted to avoid Lewis crashing out
          not to stop him overtaking Alonso
          because he was never going to take alonsoso no comparison sorry

          1. That day, Hamilton denounced his own team, and I don’t think that was because he wanted to finish just behind FA.

            I think Ham’s way is the right way. if massa had denounced his own team instead of crying now we won’t be talking about it for 2 weeks.

            And.. where’s FA’s blame???

          2. That’s rather shortsighted, sorry.

            The FIA DID find a lot of things where the team held Hamilton back.

            For instance, they gave Hamilton 5 laps more fuel during qualifying. So ‘fuel corrected’ Hamilton was faster 3 tenths faster than Alonso.

            They didn’t let Hamilton use his extra fuel and called him in early.

            Hamilton WOULD have passed Alonso after his second stop easily.

            Again Hamilton had more fuel and again they called him in early. Hamilton was catching at 2 seconds a lap. In the end he was right behind Alonso when he came out. Given 3 to 5 laps extra he would have been well ahead of Alonso.

            So yeah to the uninformed fan, Hamilton was slower. The truth is, he was only slower because he was always carrying more fuel. That cost him around half a second a lap.

            In fact Hamilton’s strategy would have given him the win. If McLaren had LET him.

            The FIA accepted McLaren’s reason for ruining Hamilton’s strategy (and stopping him from taking the win) though. McLaren claimed they wanted to stop Hamilton early every time because they were afraid of a safety car.

  14. If you want to know what lap the first transmission was made, it was on lap 19 (I think), based on http://www.fia.com/public/f1-2010/images/ger-f1-2010-chart.jpg (with the overtake on lap 49)

    1. The First one was when Alonso said “I am much quicker than Felipe”

      1. I worked this out because they lapped Glock’s Virgin (and Senna’s HRT in front of it) on the same lap as the transmission.

        1. but those radio messages are cut in by the FOM, not sychronized with the actual tv-footage.
          It could have been when Massa successfully blocked Alonsos pass there, or it could have been at any time during the race before lap 49.

    2. How have you worked that out?

  15. Shinedown – Sound of Madness. Great choice of song, FOM ;)

  16. Keith, when he was behind Alonso, Red bull flex wing wasn’t working as good as in clean air.
    Ok, 2 seconds – i was exaggerating, but sometimes he could lap almost second faster. The point is, that in dirty air his speed advantage dissapeared, and he couldn’t overtake him, so he decided to back off to set the fastest lap of the race.
    The same was in Hockenheim. When Alonso got close behind Felipe, he was slowed down.

    1. I appreciate that. Still, Alonso took advantage of traffic to have a pop at Massa, and he didn’t make it work. He might have had another chance with the Virgins later on (innuendo ahoy!) but he went off the track trying to keep up with Massa. So I don’t think it was clear-cut.

      1. Alonso could have made the move stick if he was more aggressive but he had to give more room as Massa is his team mate.

        Ferrari does not have much of a chance of the WCC so what is wrong pooling their efforts for the WDC. It is the second half of the season and Massa and Alonso are not 1 and 2 in the WDC.

        The spirit of the team order rule is till one driver is out of the championship running. Why should theoritical chance be the basis for this? Massa is on life support in the drivers champonship, it is fair for the team to make the call that his 2010 is done for him even if all the fans against (80% of this blog)Alonso do not agree with it.

        1. Agree with this post – also for everone calling for Alonso to rather overtake if he’s quicker, note that there was scarcely an overtake that day. If the bulls couldn’t do it, how much harder is it against your own team mate in the same equipment? Hamiltons retake of Button in Turkey required then to bang wheels remember? Ferrari can not afford another DNF. Was the only thing ferrari could do IMO.

          1. So they banged wheels, they were racing! Isn’t that what it’s suppose to be about. DNF are also part of racing.
            Ferrari had a choice and they chose to manipulate a results and not to race. Notice I didn’t say FA or FM, just Ferrari.

        2. I do agree with this post as well. This whole thing is a lot of nonsense but it keeps us entertained :).

  17. Not really good music. All of this situation at Ferrari it really looks like they had some sort of agreement about the slower one letting the faster guy past with some parameters (gap smaller than 3 or 5 secs, the one behind closing up the gap, etc.) and all of them were pretty much aware what was going to happen when Felipe was not able to drive away from Alonso constantly.

    If not team orders, it was clearly team tactics to arrange who was in front, no excuses about it. I doubt Massa did let him by from his own conviction, even if he had a theoretic possibility to just ignore the teams wishes.

  18. What was said —

    Alonso: “I am much quicker than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Fernado is quicker than you. Can you confirm that you understood that message?”

    What I heard —

    Alonso: “I’m stuck behind Felipe. I told the Spanish press yesterday that I could still win the title, but I’m going to look really silly if I don’t win this race when I’m faster than Felipe.”
    Ferrari: “We got your message.”
    Smedley: “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image than the team’s. Do you think you could move over, and we’ll show him what it means to be a Ferrari driver?”

    1. Stop this nonsenscical hypocritical nuisance. Its a team game.

      1. I’m sorry, hypocritical? Ferrari are the hypocrites here: they attack everyone in sight for allegedly manipulating a race outcome in Valencia, but when they go ahead and interfere with the racing, it’s perfectly justified! That’s hypocracy for you. Formula 1 might be a team sport, but that doesn’t give Ferrari the right to go and brazenly manipulate the outcome of a race because to do so would give them a better championship standing. I can understand that and would even support it if we were in the final phase of the championship and Massa was no longer a championship contender, but Ferrari have simply gone ahead and done whatever they felt like and expect to get away with it because they’re Ferrari and they’re under the mistaken impression that they’re entitled to play by a different set of rules. Ferrari need to be slapped down and put in their place as hard as possible. Hopefully this will come in the form of a ban from the Italian Grand Prix, with the FIA making it absolutely clear that Ferrari’s failure to show is a direct result of their actions. If Alonso were to win the World Championship this year because of what happened in Hockenheim, I think I’d stop watching the sport. So who’s the real hypocrite here? Me, or Ferrari?

        And in case you hadn’t noticed, the above post is intended as a joke.

        1. if this race you think that manipulated then what mclaren done in Hockenheim 2008??? That whas not manipulation -team order- to heiki deliberately give the position to the FASTER then hamilton…Heiki whas mathematical out of the championship there?? NO!!! Some people just remember what they want to remember… That is hypocritic views….

          1. I don’t remember Hockenheim 2008, because I didn’t watch it. My entire 2008 was spent doing something much more important that staying up until midnight to watch the races. As a result, I can only comment on what I know.

            Whatever the case, the FIA cannot retroactively change the results of a race that happened two years ago, just as Ferrari cannot be allowed to get away with it simply because there is an histoical precedent. Starting now, teams need to be called into account for their actions.

          2. RE Hockenheim 2008: Lewis drove a storming race to victory, but part of that was a lovely concession of position by Heikki. The perfect number 2 driver.

          3. McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco — because of that they received a penalty and that could be the same one to Ferrari this year…

            So, McLaren was “hypocrite” too and used team orders well before Germany 2008, but clearly to favor Alonso against Hamilton…

            A collateral effect os this mess is that because of Massa fail and Alonso demonization by our press and world press — and by the fans, as we can see here —, there’s an interesting phenomenon happening in Brazil: Hamilton is strongly increasing his fan base among F1 fans here.

          4. Not Hockenheim 2008 again. Let’s go to the film. Hamilton blew by Kovalainen, just like he did everyone else on the track(twice), including Felipe Massa, like he was chained to a post. Are people really suggesting that Kovalainen should have made a drama out of it by making Hamilton pass on the outside instead of the inside or whatever was contrary to Hamilton’s first choice? What joke. Did Kovalainen come to virtual stop on the track to let Hamilton by? No, he just failed to do the only thing that would keep him back—hit him at the apex of turn 4. If you examine the defense of Massa against Hamilton’s move, the only difference was the Massa chose to pointlessly drive off the track after he lost the line in turn 4. What about Piquet, was he under orders from Dennis to yield to Hamilton? It seemed that Piquet all but drove off the track to get out of the way of a pointless clash and preserve the best possible position for him, 2nd. So any analogy between these two situations is reduction to absuridity, so to speak.

            Let me make the filing now required by Tifosi: I’m not British.

        2. Maybe Ferrari felt like: when others manipulate and cheat, thats ok. So lets try cheating, maybe it will be ok too.
          I’m just guessing though.

          1. I think many confuse manipulating a race result and manipulating the order of your cars in a race. The former will most likely (should)get you thrown out of F1, the latter has been happening since the beginning(legally and illegaly).

          2. Ferrari have always felt there should be one set of rules for themselves and one set for everyone else. Remember 2007, when they prosecuted McLaren? It wasn’t the first time someone was caught with their car designs – Toyota engineers had access to Ferrari documents several years earlier, but no action was ever taken. And why not? Because Toyota weren’t racing Ferrari. Ferrari have consistently proven that they will do whatever they feel like to win a race, and the rules be damned for it. Rules are for lesser mortals. They’ve convinced themselves that they are Formula 1 and that the sport would die if they left tomorrow. The problem with that statement is that they need every single Formula 1 fan to feel the loss – and I already know that if they announced their intention to quit, my initial reaction would be “Nice knowing you”.

            And in the case of Valencia, that wasn’t McLaren interfering with the rules. It was a result of a late steward ruling. But in Germany, it was all Ferrari.

        3. I see Prisioner, you have a very selective memory. Remember 2007 but not 2008 (much more important things to do). Anyway, lets stick on 2010. Team orders by Ferrari ended up with FA in front of FM: NO HARM TO OTHER TEAMS, NO POINTS STOLEN TO OTHER DRIVERS. Manipulation races I call when: Hmilton changes 4 times direction so Kubica cant overtake: no penalty. Hamilton finishes Qualifying pushing his car: no penalty. Hamilton races in the pit stops twice against SV and FA: no penalty. And of course Valencia, Hamilton deliveraty stops when he sees SC approaching to leave Alonso behind it, misscalculating and ilegally passing the SC. Gets the penalty 20 laps later to hold position. ALL THIS IN 9 GPs, STEALING POINTS TO OTHER DRIVERS. THIS IS THE maFIA MANIPULATING

          1. This talk of the FIA “manipulating” things to favour Hamilton bears no relation to the facts.

            The FIA have not shied away from punishing Hamilton when he deserved it – Europe 2010, Australia 2009 and France 2008 are just three examples.

            Hamilton’s line-changing in front of Petrov (not Kubica) in all likelihood did little to prevent Petrov passing. Hamilton was trying to brake the tow, not weaving to stop Petrov getting alongside. Still, the stewards want to discourage that kind of driving so they gave him a reprimand. That was exactly the right response: we haven’t seen anyone do it since, have we? (More on that here: Drivers as stewards make presence felt as Hamilton gets black-and-white flag)

            And ‘racing in the pits’, as you call it, has been done by other drivers including Alonso (Germany 2008) and, just as with Hamilton, has gone unpunished.

            Returning to the point – because this article is about Alonso, not Hamilton – the test of whether something is considered a team order is not whether other teams were ‘harmed’ or other drivers lost points. According to the regulations, team orders which affect the result of the race are prohibited.

            Clearly, without reference to what may or may not have happened at other Grands Prix, Ferrari affected the result of the race at Hockenheim by using team orders. I don’t think anyone can seriously dispute that.

    2. Totally ridiculous and definitely not funny.

    3. ” “Felipe, Fernando is more worried about his public image ”

      To be fair, right then I think Alonso was thinking of the points not if he’s going to get any TV time and magazine deals.

      Becken you make a good point but

      “McLaren used team orders in 2007 to stop Hamilton chase Alonso at Monaco ”

      I can actually see why they did that. It was a strategy call which is perfectly fine but throughout the year Fernando and Lewis were allowed to race. I think it was wise they didn’t at Monaco because it is well Monaco and if Seb and Web can crash in Turkey then God knows the carnage that could happen at the principality :P

  19. The FA fans that turn their back on him because a TV presenter blasted cheat on BBC after the german GP and lier regarding Singapore 2008 are not real fans
    it is widely noticed that the british reporting team BBC who are Ex ITV F1 are pro Hamilton and Anti Alonso
    Ferrari have done nothing wrong
    it is the presenters that started a hornets nest
    if it had been Hamilton or Red Bull i doubt we would have heard a thing said about it
    still this is my opinion
    Maclaren cheated Alonso out of a back to back WDC in 2007 to back Hamilton that was team orders wasent it
    Denis said after the China GP we are racing Alonso as well as the Ferraris
    problem is that Alonso was in the other Maclaren F1 car
    Funny aint it

    1. LOL, so those are not real fans/not real Alonso fans, so what???

    2. Ferrari manipulated a race outcome. They brought the sport into disrepute. Tell me again that they did “nothing wrong”.

      And McLaren did not cheat Alonso out of a title. Alonso was the architect of his own demise. He assumed he would lead the team and that Hamilton would be subservient. He lost the championship in Australia, not Brazil. By the time the 2007 Chinese Grand Prix came about, Alonso had already distanced himself from the team.

      If Alonso can do no wrong, perhaps you can answer me this: how come he hasn’t won a single race without help since traction control was banned? He won in Singapore 2008, but only because Piquet crashed to benefit him. He won in Bahrain 2010, but only because Vettel’s car gave up. And he won in Germany 2010, but only because Massa moved over for him. Explain that, please.

      1. In fact, he also won in Japan 2008. Don’t remember the race, so maybe you can tell me how it was cheated there.
        (Just want to mention that I’m not an Alonso fan)

      2. Erm *cough* Japan 2008 *cough*

        Though that was also because everyone fell over themselves at the first corner.

        1. Every single race in the history of F1 will have sort of circumstance that could have affected the result.

      3. Yes, of course Seb broke down his car in Bahrein on purpose, just to help Fernando (because Botin bribed him, that’s why)

    3. Actually if McLaren had given Button the instruction to let Hamilton pass at this point of the season, the uproar would have been much greater.

      First of all, Button is just as popular as Hamilton in Britain, and secondly McLaren is very focal about giving equal chances.
      They wouldn’t hear the last of it for another couple of years from fans and the british media.

      1. Besides PM, I doubt Schumacher in his prime could have jumped in the R28 or 29 and drove it to victory.

        1. If he could have won three times in the awful Ferrari F310, then he’d have at least done as well as FA in the R28.

    4. Be careful Mikee, you are presenting your feelings as fact; they are not the samething.

    5. michael mair
      4th August 2010, 17:39

      absolutely spot on ! ps anyone wishing to join the we hate fernando club should contact mr E Jordan . c/o BBC television

    6. I didn’t need the british press to confirm what I saw and heard nor did most people who watched the race. Ferrari manipulated the outcome of that race in Alonso’s favor because Felipe did as he was told and then had the nerve to poo poo about it for the rest of the day.
      And as for Alonso getting cheated out of WDC by McLaren in 2007, that’s an illusion to people unwilling to face the fact that a rookie was his equal. McLaren told him (Alonso)if he wanted it then win it. Kimi won it, by being the best in Brazil, it’s as simple as that.

      1. Correction, Kimi won it by being left to pass by his Ferrari team mate Felipe who was the best and fastest driver that day. So it may not be as simple as that. Otherwise FA should have been the winner that year while LH was “hanging around” the circuit with his Mclaren.

  20. This is WAY overblown. Ferrari was punished with the fine. Alonso was faster – it wasn’t like they impeded other drivers and let a SLOWER Alonso past! If you can’t be a little careful with your teammate, what’s the point? Also telling Hamilton that Button won’t attack – that is not a team order to tell Button “not to attack”? Telling a faster driver he must hold station is much worse than making it quasi safe for the faster driver to get through!

    Alonso may or may not have been able to scrap his way through – but he was faster and not a single other driver or team was affected (unlike the Hamilton SC incident or Vettel holding up the entire field in Hungary – that he shot himself in the foot doesn’t matter). Again, Ferrari was punished – why should it not be enough for them – when reprimands and feckless penalties are enough for other teams??

    1. Ferrari was punished with the fine.

      Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life. So tell me again that a fine of a hundred thousand dollars is punishment enough. At the very least, Ferrari should be banned for a race or two.

      1. The only time Massa was faster than Alonso was at the start when Vettel pushed Alonso against the wall. The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother. They were punished – no not black flagged by the marshalls or banned thereafter which could have been done.

        If you’re talking about Singapore and Renault – and really believe deliberately causing an accident, risking the lives of people and totally changing the outcome of the race (Alonso was what 6th?) are equivalent to this… Well, that pretty much says it all.

        Disrepute? Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.

        Having Button (or anyone else) “hold” station is much more “manipulation” – than allowing a faster sister car through.

        1. I doubt the team orders rule will be scrapped. Not when audiences react so poorly to a team using them.

          1. It should be – I say screw the audience who don’t like/understand team orders. They can watch tiddley winks or something. Maybe then we can stop messing with F1 for the sake of “the show”, *gag reflex*

          2. Not true, most of the time at least. Certainly, there are team orders pretty much in every race and every team. And of course they affect the results of the race, but only rarely there is a reaction from the audience.
            The problem with the Schuey-Rubens affair in 2002 and the recent Fernando-Felipe thing (beyond the anti-Ferrari bias in British media) is that both Rubens and Felipe (or maybe I should say Rob Smedley) complied with the TO quite grudgingly, making a big show of it. Audiences do accept TO but they don’t want them to be so blatant.
            It sounds cynical, I know (go ahead with TO but don’t make it obvious), but the point is that the rule is unenforceable and should go.

          3. Sorry, DASMAN, you can call me old-fashioned, but I’d rather see good racing decided by a driver’s skill rather than a race outcome decided by the teams because it suits them better.

        2. “The faster car won the race while minimizing the risk to eachother”…

          “Yes, for the stupidity of an unenforceable rule, a rule that is flouted every race Sunday and applied selectively – and a rule will be scrapped.”

          So you are saying scrap Sunday and racing all together, we know from qualifying who’s fastest anyway, right?

          1. IF people like things black and white – F1 and many, many other things are not for them.

            Qualifying is NOT the race and there is a reason “they play the game”… does it really need to be spelled out? The fastest car in qualifying isn’t always the fastest car in the race – breakdowns, SC, weather etc. all have a role in the outcome of a race. But to say all team orders are the same, or it’s always cheating is unbelievably naive. It’s like comparing Singapore ’08 and Ferrari easing a faster sister car through. Currently the rules prohibit ANY team orders… Ferrari were caught and penalized. IF the penalty was not enough… each has their own opinion – and they may still face further sanctions. But the “fanboys” will insist that team orders, masked or not are ok when told to “hold” station etc. when it involves “their” team.

            I don’t know if any of us are in F1 – I’m certainly not – but look at the comments from say Mark Webber – I think his thoughts carry a bit more weight than any of ours on what REALLY happens. The “holier than thou” attitude held by many… is the definition of hypocrisy…

      2. “Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute. The last time someone did that, they got banned for life.”

        Comparing Singapore 2008 and this incident is nothing but silly. Ferrari’s actions swapped the order of only their two cars around, with no danger to spectators or marshalls. Renault’s actions not only endagered lives, but jumbled the order of the whole field, heavily disadvantaging Massa, Raikkonen and even Hamilton, while allowing Alonso and Rosberg (blameless guy) to magically lead the field.

      3. #Ferrari manipulated a race outcome and brought the sport into disrepute# where you born yesterday? the sport has been brought into disrepute SO many times before this…1989, 1990,1994,1997,2002,…. the list could never end.

  21. The clearest indication of team orders form me was the radio message when Smeldey told Massa that he “could still win this”. This was when he was in the lead, 6 seconds ahead of Vettel and Alonso obviously unable to pass him.

  22. Hmmm, surprising amount of people who are defending FA…

    Either you can overtake or you can not, what’s with “I am much quicker”??? No wonder he got kicked out of McLaren, he probably shouted it every lap when he’s behind LH.

    Racing is about risk taking, what Ferrari’ve done is totally the opposite direction and unnecessary. Yes, RBR raced and crashed, but they are still in a better position/have the best chances in the championships, and they can be proud to be a true racing team

    1. The surprising thing is that some people have short memories…and forget what ALL the teams have done ALL these years…And believe the reporters and what they say… What DC told to the bbc: “team orders take place IN EVERY RACE”-“That is not the first time this year that we have team orders”…. What Brundle said: “team orders rule is just unworkable because the TEAMS ARE USING TEAM ORDERS EVERY RACE”… They are former drivers, they know from the inside what the teams doing…. RBR true racing team??? You can ask Webber’s feelings after silverstone qualyfing….

      1. Not going to discuss TO. I said it was unnecessary, just like Ferrari in 02′. let’s say all team have done TO, but the fact is: the TO ban was created only after what Ferrari have done, Ferrari is the first to get it banned. It’s not a random effect IMO.

        Who care about how Webber felt/feels??? Racing team means they go racing, RBR may favor Vettel, but with RBR Webber still can race, will have more chance to win more races than Massa finishing right in front of Alonso, well just about everything is more likely to happen than that.

        1. If it was unnecessary you can say it only in the end of the championship… If alonso win this year championship for less than 7 points…then you can say what was necessary and what not… The same done mclaren with hamilton in germany gp 2008 (heiki gave his position to lewis)…that whas unnecessary??? I don’t think so…Lewis win the championship for ONE point….So why massa’s move was unneccesary??? What you say is a random effect…because if ferrari will take a ban in the WMSC then must hand back ALL the championships from 02 and after when the rule exists because all these years the teams are using TO…So the ferrari ban will not be a random ban??? I share the opinion of DC and Brundle TO RULE MUST BE SCRAPTED!!! Why some people think that the teams must be use coded messages to give team orders (what is not good??? the TO orders or the way you give them??)??? If we have a rule that force the teams to cheat to us is better (because we the fans don’t understand this as team order) than have not have a rule and the teams done what they think is good??? F1 is a team sport and all the teams want to win the WDC and not give to an other team… Think in a football match one teams gains a penalty…if the score is 0-0 who is going to shoot the penalty?? The player that they have the MOST chances to score a goal or that that the coach-team- thinks that he has the most chances…

          1. Well, maybe it was necessary for Alonso to win the WDC if Alonso isn’t good enough to do it all alone. Alonso thinks every win is special, so if he is happy to win that way so it’s fine by me, but I for one do not support it.

            DC and MB are just one side, there are also people in F1 with the opposite oppion, I guess we have to live with it.

            BTW I see 2008 as a fully deserved WDC for LH, nothing more deserving than that! I have to leave now haha.

          2. You listen to DC and MB and I will listen to Niki Lauda who called it what it was, bs.

        2. I think driver favoritism and team orders have to be considered as two completely different things.

          1. Then again at the usgp07′ alonso did ask the team to tell Hamilton to move aside for him.

            He did the same thing a few races ago, and this time the team listened.

            … it brings me to question if Fernando was really one of the masterminds behind the Singapore GP or not?

  23. Roger Carballo AKA Architrion
    4th August 2010, 12:32

    Keith, why don’t you find and publish McLaren’s radio transmition on Hockenheim 08 between, when Hamilton and Kovalainen played alike Alonso and Massa, even at the same turn?

    After all, Hamilton won WDC thanks to that few extra points. So, I’m a little confused here. Was it a team sport then? Isn’t it now? Was Hamilton a dirty champion who won a dirty race at Hockenheim 08? Is it Alonso now?

    Please, bring me light in this dark hour

    1. I’ve already covered the Kovalainen thing here:

      Why the team orders rule must stay

      I’d love to hear the team radio from that too.

    2. not comparable at all, then you had Hamilton who had fresh tires… very much faster… he overtook Kovalainen… and moved ahead and overtook Massa & Nelson Piquet…

      If Kovalainen had the pace to beat Hamilton… he would have won the race… and not finish 4th then…

      1. Roger Carballo AKA Archtrion
        4th August 2010, 13:32

        Absolutely the same issue, no matter how you want to look at it…. even more… if Hamilton was so fast he could have done it easily…. the same it’s been said about Alonso.

        In fact, both are like two drops of water.

        1. not at all, in hamilton’s case he was clearly fast not only he went ahead and overtook another two cars ahead… but he pulled away from Nelson by 5.5 seconds…

          the times between Alonso & Felipe was not much… at that pace it was impossible for Alonso to beat Massa on track… unless a mistake…

          in Hamilton’s case he overtook his teammate and Kovalainen…. now had Kovalainen been as faster as Hamilton on that day, he would have overtaken Heifield, Massa & Piquet to finish second or even first… the fact that he could not means he was slower than above three drivers… and Hamilton beat Massa & Piquet fair n square to win the race…

          this simply does not compare… unless you suggest that Massa & Piquet too let Hamilton go ahead under team orders…

          1. oh my dear!!! The fact is that the team gave a team order to heiki to let lewis pass!!! Like it or not this is the fact and not how faster the guy behind was or how slow the guy in front was!!!!

        2. He did do it easily, first overtake HK, then FM and finally NP Jr for the win. People tend to forget the last two overtakes, particularly the one with Massa at turn 4.
          In other words, you can’t compare 2008 with 2010.

          1. WHY??? Because lewis had 2 more cars to pass??? or because the pace was greater??? I say that: and others team gave or give team orders and DIDN’T FACED THE WMSC….. The two moves (lewis-heiki,fernando-felipe) is exactly the same thing!!! Their teams in this two occasions gave team orders to help the faster guy and the guy that they think than CAN WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!!! Stop saying that it is not comparable!!!!

      2. Still, he let him through without putting up a fight which enabled Hamilton to catch the others, Exactly the same thing !!!

        1. so did Massa & Nelson Piquet… they too easily gave up positions…. Hamilton was that much quicker on that day.

          it’s not the same thing..

    3. You mean how Massa was given extra points by Raikkonen that year too?

      To suggest 2008 is similar is a pure joke. Was Hamilton tucked up behind Kovalainen and unable to get by? Or did he come straight out of the pits on superior pace (far superior to Alono’s over Massa – you know, the pace that took him about a dozen laps to close up to his team-mate) and the team wanted to make sure nothing happened in a moment of stupidity?

      The analogy is so false on so many counts it’s ridiculous. But ridiculous is exactly the theme of this whole sage, from the “agreement” to its defence.

  24. Well he’s been telling his team that he’s quicker than his teammate since at least 5 years ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IDH6CUBMU

    http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5117277/F1_Best_of_Canadian_GP_2005_2

    1. Ah, but Fisi beat him to the pit box there!

  25. Racer vs driver – thank you for showing which one you are.

  26. I want to know why all the drivers have to speak to their teams in English. Why dont they just speak their first language?

    1. It might be a case of having problems to actually find the engineers able to communicate (Smedley in Portuguese, would love to hear Jock Clear speaking German, where do HRT find engineers for Portuguese, Indian dialects, German and Japanese).

      That would not work.

  27. u know whts also funny? is that after d race Alonso asked ‘wht happen with Felipe? did he lost a gear or st? wow

  28. The issue is passing, or to get to the point, the lack of it. If a clearly faster driver is able to pass a slower one, as common sense would dictate, then team orders don’t come into play here at all. I mean really, how many passes do we see on the track (among top 10 cars)?
    Bring back the days when F1 was not decided solely in a wind tunnel. When was the last time anyone even mentioned engine development? Are these supposed to be cars, or inverted airplanes?

  29. Oh my, the Ferraristas have really gotten defensive over this haven’t they? You’d think that over the past 11 years they’d have gotten used to people calling them out on their team’s chea…I mean, the blatantly unfair picking on them by the British.

    Face it: your team and its drivers would rather win by cheating and lying and playing everyone for fools than not win at all. I’m not saying that’s a reason for you to stop supporting them. But stop acting like you can justify what happened with ridiculous arguments and irrelevant false analogies.

    If you want to be Ferrari fans, do so by saying you wished the passing had happened legitimately but you’ll stick by your team. Just like Hamilton fans didn’t try to justify Australia 2009 with accusations of jingoism and excuses of “well you have to win the title somehow” (let’s not forget McLaren though they’d be winning again by Barcelona, for some reason).

    The best part of all this is Alonso won’t be world champion and all of this rage and self-righteousness will be rendered invalid by his inability to win in a straight fight. That will be the last laugh.

    1. “If you want to be Ferrari fans, do so by saying you wished the passing had happened legitimately but you’ll stick by your team.”

      This is what I had been wishing tbh…

      “The best part of all this is Alonso won’t be world champion and all of this rage and self-righteousness will be rendered invalid by his inability to win in a straight fight.”

      At least with Schumacher, the criticisms were that he would have won the 2002 championship without Barrichello moving aside at the A1-Ring. Alonso isn’t in a very good position to win it this year, but I guess that as a Ferrari fan I have to support him, even if I don’t want to.

      1. dyslexicbunny
        4th August 2010, 18:43

        You can always support Massa while pulling for Alonso to get severe vertigo so he can’t race. I suggest vertigo because although I’m not an Alonso fan (and not British), I don’t wish significant misfortune on other drivers.

        If Massa somehow (this is a loose usage of somehow) loses the WDC by less than 7 points, it’ll be even greater!

    2. do you really want to know why they (Ferraristas) are on this F1Fanatic forum?
      its because they cant write anything at Ferrari’s Forum unless its (i love Ferrari) anything else it gets deleted.
      the forum is so one side they cant see passed there nose…
      they have discounts of 30% at the moment.

    3. No no, the ferrarista is great (lots of my friends are ferrari fans), just like other teams fans. I just dont understand alonso’s fans..

    4. I really get your anger Ichtyes and it’s a sorry state that F1 fans are upset but at least it shows that they hold sporting integrity in the highest regard.

      However, I have to argue against you bunching us all together. I think it was immensely painful for many Ferrari fans to see their teams and drivers do such a thing. Most people watch F1 for the sport first and their favourites second.

      Yes, there will always be people who put their favourites first. Fansboys or girls or whatever. We get it with Ferrari, Kimi, Lewis, Fernando and Felipe etc.

      The majority aren’t like that though and are just sad at what happened and won’t attempt to justify it. I know some who have stopped supporting Ferrari all together.

      This was a one time thing since the rules changed. It doesn’t make it any better but to say that Ferrari are inherent cheats is a bit unfair I feel. I like to watch F1 for the sport and I wouldn’t support any team or driver I thought would only ever cheat.

  30. (Nearly) everyone has taken a pee in the pool once or twice, but Ferrari chose to do it from the highest springboard…

  31. This is all abit pointless. Most of us do not need to hear this communication between Alonso and his team as we already know what went on in Germany. All it does is prolong the story long enough for the FIA hearing which, I believe, will be a whitewash anyway.

  32. First of all, good afternoon. This is my first post, so I’d like to say Hello, and naturally thank Keith. Wonderful site, thanks for the analysis and devotion. I’ve been reading it for months now and like the debates and options.

    Well, caveat emptor: I am a confessed Ferrari and Alonso tifosi, having had a professional relationship with Ferrari for 8 years and being Spanish myself. Nobody’s perfect…;-D

    Now, my 2 cents. I did not like what happened, but to me three things are pretty obvious:

    A) Alonso wants to win. Period. He has never hidden that. Neither has the Scuderia.

    B) Poor Massa…he must be the only one who still says out loud he is not the #2 driver. He acts as one. He’s been the de facto #2 after the second curve of the first GP of the year. As Keith says, he’s never proven otherwise. Ferrari mistake: I was among those (check the GDS forums) who thought SF should have dropped him and kept Kimi but…poor guy. I pity him…quoting Sara Palin, he’s no Webber, he does not have what it takes.

    C) Di Montezemolo is right: Enough of this hypocrisy. Just three links for us all to remember Germany 2008:

    Go to 01:50 at

    http://vimeo.com/1402201

    then read the third paragraph at…

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7516115.stm

    at even more blatantly here

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/jul/21/formulaone.motorsports

    Does this make it right? No! But grow up people, ****** happens, aka feces occur.

    Just my opinion, that tries to be fair but acknowledges it could be biased…:-D

    1. Alonso was challenging Massa for the win and he was drooling over the additional 7 points that would bring him. He – and Ferrari – had no right what so ever in stealing those 7 points from Massa.

      The 2008 German GP is nothing like what happened at this year.

      Lewis had won 3 races that year prior to Germany and had double the points of Heikki (with this year system the gap would have been even bigger), he was also on a different fuel strategy and won the race over 15 seconds ahead of his team mate.

      Team ‘orders’ in this instance did not cost Heikki the win nor did it force him to concede against his wishes as was clearly the case with Massa.

  33. @Keith Collantine: James Allen wrote an article in his blog that explains what happened in Hockeheim with Scuderia Ferrari. If you want to continue the confusion you can write more articles like this but this will not be the true.

    1. What are you confused by? The quotes in this article are taken directly from the footage – you can listen to them yourself if you follow the link in the first paragraph.

      1. There was a agreement before race in Scuderia Ferrari: to avoid collision between teammates the two drivers must show who was faster than the other, and the faster driver wins the best position in race. The method was simple: 3 seconds delay and if the driver can reduce this gap in a few laps then it shows he’s faster than other SF driver. If you remember there was a moment in which Alonso was 3 seconds behind Massa and Smedley told brazilian he had to drive as fast as he could to win the race. He did it, but Alonso was clearly faster than him and reduced that 3 seconds gap. He showed be clearly faster and he gained the first position in race, but Massa didnt accept it and he made all possible to show people there was team orders when it happened was a team agreement before race. This is the true.

      2. I think what he’s saying is that perhaps the whole story isn’t being told. With the agreement that appears to have been in place at Ferrari since Melbourne it puts the use of the team orders in a different light. Of course it was still a clear breach of the regulations but I think people would be more understanding of the decision if they were more aware of how it was come to and that it wasn’t simply a knee-jerk reaction to Alonso’s radio messages.

        Such an agreement also shows that the race wasn’t fixed as many have claimed, since the switch was not inevitable. If Massa had driven faster he would have been allowed to lead the Ferrari 1-2 home.

        1. dyslexicbunny
          4th August 2010, 18:47

          I was unaware of this. Was it announced somewhere or just something in private that later was mentioned? I only read a couple of F1 sites so it’s likely I could have missed it.

          Honestly if Ferrari had just brought this agreement to light, I would at least been less peeved about it. They still broke the rules but at least the drivers were aware such a thing could happen.

          1. James Allen highlighted it on his post race analysis and I presume its been covered a lot more in the Italian press.

            The thing is if they admited to the agreement they would agree to breaking the rule and thats why they’ve forced themselves into the silly situation of denying they used team orders.

          2. Jordi Gené, ferrari test driver, told about this agreement before the race on Spanish TV.

            But it doesn’t matter because people was just waiting for a chance to attack Alonso just because he says big truths.

            For example, someone said that he attacked everybody at hockemhein. That’s not true, He only attacked FIA, who is guilty in every case, even in this one. FIA has allow team do what they want and gave space to all this kind of interpretations. And now everybody has his own point of view of something that should be clear.

  34. I think quzhub sums it up: Less graphically, don’t make a farce of the race. Which, by the way, is the key distinction between Hockenheim and this. Kovalainen giving way to Hamilton did not rob the race of a spirited battle for position, much less the lead. And, of equal importance to the analysis, Hamilton dealt with Kovalainen, with his cooperation or not, with about the same fuss required to dispatch Massa, who was faster than Kovalainen. This latter point basically disproves the idea that McLaren’s move somehow cast a pall of manipulation over the race. Thus, there is no parallel between these situations beyond the most formalistic. In fact, examined in relevant detail, they contrast perfectly what we will call traditionally permitted teamwork, in which Ferrari has justifiably engaged in innumerable times, and the kind of manipulation the sport found unnacceptable in Austria in 2002 and which occured in materially the same fashion this year in Hockenheim. You can consider it more simple terms: did the teamwork irrevocably alter the race outcome and quell a meaningful battle for position? The latter outcome, because it matters to the “show,” is what has put the bee in the FIA’s bonnet.

  35. Yep it’s all wrong but things are not going to change.

    If Massa wants to prove that he’s not a number 2 then he’s going to have to grow a pair and disobey his team.

    In other words do a ‘Pironi’

  36. If drivers need only communicate how fast they are as a way to influence track position and ultimately race result, at the next driver’s meeting they should compare their lap times, discuss their strengths and weakness for that track, explain how they might pass others and each corner, then reach a consensus on the race result and save having to wave any green flags.

    That would very much be in the spirit of cost savings. :-)

  37. IMHO the WMSC should kick alonso out of F1, this is their third chance..they must take it! the guy is nothing but a cheating moaning scumbag. Ferrari should have learnt the lessons from Mclaren & Renault.

    1. That’s ridiculous. The FIA aren’t going to kick a driver out just because some people don’t like him.

      1. they can kick out a cheat.

        1. Then, FIA should kick many people out and kick theirselves out aswell.

        2. I’m not sure how many drivers would be left in F1 if they did. Or how many teams.

          Obviously Ferrari and McLaren (spygate, if nothing else) are both out. Mercedes are probably gone too for the reserve fuel tank thing back when the same team was Honda. Red Bull…I don’t recall them doing anything illegal, just somewhat unethical. Renault obviously banned over Singapore ’08, assuming the team got that far and wasn’t kicked out for the various things it did as Benetton in 1994.

          I could go on, but I think you get the point.

          1. They should go too. Ferrari were cowards to give into Alonso and Santander. Ferrari should be banned for the rest of this season and subsequent F1 championship races.

          2. jh,

            Ferrari is who has given team orders. I don’t understand why you speak about Alonso and why do you think that ferrari is cheating just because they joined Alonso and Santander.

            Thats you fantasy story.

    2. This isn’t about Alonso. This is about Ferrari and to a lesser degree, Massa. They made a decision manipulate the race and Massa agreed to execute the plan. A simple no on his (Massa)part would have made this a none issue.

      1. Alonso’s money (santander) talks. Ferrari are no longer Ferrari, but team Santander.

  38. circumstantial evidence is not proof of guilt and never has been.

    Despite the fact that on the face of it all it is close to certain that a team order was issued in some way shape or form through a coded message. There is not actually a shred of evidence that actually has Ferrari telling Felipe to “move out of the way and let Fernando past”

    The council hearing will result in nothing more than a slap on the wrist, and rightly so, at worst they will try to take the constructors points away, which mean very little to Ferrari anyway as their history dictates they are clearly out for the drivers title.

    Hopefully this story, that has been driven by the Ferrari hating british press and bbc will go away so we can focus on the rest of the season.

    1. The stewards have already stated that Ferrari did indeed tell Massa to concede victory to Alonso. So, even if Ferrari have claimed otherwise the stewards – based on the evidence – don’t believe them.

      The WMSC will be under no illusion that Ferrari are judged to have manipulated the race and will have access to the same materials that lead the stewards to their conclusion.

  39. I repeat my message:

    There was a agreement before race in Scuderia Ferrari: to avoid collision between teammates the two drivers must show who was faster than the other, and the faster driver wins the best position in race. The method was simple: 3 seconds delay and if the driver can reduce this gap in a few laps then it shows he’s faster than other SF driver. If you remember there was a moment in which Alonso was 3 seconds behind Massa and Smedley told brazilian he had to drive as fast as he could to win the race. He did it, but Alonso was clearly faster than him and reduced that 3 seconds gap. He showed be clearly faster and he gained the first position in race, but Massa didnt accept it and he made all possible to show people there was team orders when it happened was a team agreement before race. This is the true.

    1. Pretty much spot on really and its the kind of team order that if Ferrari had been open and explained would probably have been accepted my a lot of fans. But because they felt they had to sidetrack the team orders rule the party line post-race was just embarassing and was what angered people most.

      Also though that series of events indicates that Massa would have been allowed to win the race had he driven faster, as a result the result was in no way ‘fixed’ or predetermined.

      1. “Also though that series of events indicates that Massa would have been allowed to win the race had he driven faster, as a result the result was in no way ‘fixed’ or predetermined”

        I get why Alonso done it but that just says that there was an agreement in place which influenced the outcome of the race so was predetermined that the quicker driver would win and therefore = team order :P

        1. Well, I dont’t say it’s not a team order, but if we think we can punish team agreements as team orders there’s no space to teams in F1. And if we think that teams decitions as changing a front wind are team orders as well, then this topic is clear now.

          The question is why two weeks speaking about it when it happens everyweek to everyteams? The FIA video about turkey pointed out McLaren radio chats, also with written comments to understand everything they want to show. FIA are pointing the same thing out (YES, THE SAME THING), and nobody spent no many time critizing.

          Someone told in here something important : There are differences between team orders (not allowed but allowed if you do it a little, very polite, ore it’s the last race of championship) and driver favoritism, which is allowed but not ethic. I think the bad thing of this is not the rule of team orders, or if Ferrari must be banned. I think the point is that ferrari has chosen Alonso to win, wich is legal but nobody likes to see it because its not ethic.

          As Vettel said it’s better not to say anything that could come back in the future. I suggest everybody here not to talk too much more because this situation is going to happen again this year in other teams.

          Maybe it doesn’t happen again and then you must thank to ferrari who stop this hipocracy with a really really bad acting of it.

          1. The question is why two weeks speaking about it when it happens everyweek to everyteams?

            Because Ferrari are the ones about to face an investigation by the FIA.

            I’m not indifferent to your concern that this has been pursued and other potential cases haven’t, in fact I wrote about it here:

            Why the team orders rule must stay

    2. And if that’s true it would constitute a team order which affects the result of the race, which is why Ferrari have been fined and are being investigated.

      1. Nobody is denying it was a team order in breach of the regulations as they stand. It just provides an important background context to how the decision was come to.

    3. The was also an agreement in place at Renault in 2008 just before the Singapore GP…

  40. I think the wsmc should strip Ferrari of the constructors points and reverse FA and FM points from that race don’t know if they can do that but it’s the fairest way IMO. It’s no good banging on about bygone championships they won’t change them now.and as for the race the worst part for me was FA attitude after he’s so far up his own backside that he believes it’s all down to his great driving he was the same after Singapore even shuey was ashamed of the way it went between him and Rubens hence him pushing him on to top run of the podium if your going to take a win in that way at least show some remorse he could win wdc but he won’t deserve it. You can’t just stamp your feet and cry let me past he had one half ***** rookie attempt at an overtake then give in and spat his dummy out if he wants to be ferraris #1 and wdc go out and fight for it just like vettel n webber Hamilton n button shuey n rosberg and all the other drivers out there grow a pair alonso and stop crying about being faster just be better at what your doing what happend to believing in yourself.

  41. “True team-mates do these things because that’s the way they are”

    …Domenicalli said? NO, R. Dennis

    1. I guess that means you feel that Massa isn’t a “true” team-mate?

      1. Massa isn’t a true team mate because he had to defend his position in the team briefing and not in front of FIA and TV. He could have said something before to the team or just don’t obey.

  42. I’m not at all surprised by this. Probably a gentle reminder of the agreement they had. I understand it, I don’t think of Alonso any worse because if there is an agreement in place it has to be honoured and I didn’t expect him to just settle for 2nd. He’s a winning beast.

    It was a simple and easy agreement by Ferrari and probably best to manage the situation but the idea that all teammates crash whenever they race is ridiculous. Any agreement before the race is still a team order.

    However, I can’t admire or like this way as much as I understand it. It isn’t racing. It just comes down to two different takes; whether winning is all that matters or whether it is how a race is won. Senna said the second person is the first to lose and many of the most successul and ambitions racers have that attitude. It’s a little cold for my liking. I always want to see Ferrari win and I expect there are many fans who are almost as ambitions as the teams and drivers but I personally didn’t celebrate that win like I cheered for Massa when he lost in 2008.

    If Alonso wins the title this year and is really happy then good on him but it’ll mean a little less to me than the titles when he took on Schumi and Kimi even if he is now in a red car.

    I still think the issue has been blown up because it’s a damn good story; it’s Ferrari, Massa and Rob made it so obvious, Stefano hid behind Rob and couldn’t assume the team leader rule when he needed to the most, some maybe expected this sort of thing from Alonso and it was the anniversary of Massa’s accident. I’m glad it has been blown up though if it means team orders will be addressed now.

  43. I don’t believe for 1 second that alonso had no idea about the events at Singapore he knew all about it and was as much to blame as the rest of them as if a team conspire to cheat and the driver they want to win knows nothing I don’t think so once a cheat always a cheat Ferrari saw that and said there’s our man sign and we can cheat our way to another championship

  44. Aah, the pangs of being a Ferrari fan. Honestly, one cannot fight against the world. I am a Ferrari fan myself, and it pains me to see what they have done. Yes, Ferrari has faults, just like every other team. Ferrari uses a 1-2 driver policy which sometimes makes them take decisions like Germany 2010, Austria 2002.

    But if one were to look at history, and see who have been the World Drivers Champions over the last 22 years (since Senna defeated Prost in a straight fight in 1988), the WDC has always been won by a driver who had clear number 1 status within his team (for the debatable years: 2008: Look at how many times Heikki was given lower fuel load than Lewis, 2009: Change of Rubens’ strategy at Spain. Again, qualifying fuel loads between Jenson & Rubens).

    It is just how the sport is. There is nothing we can do, and honestly, do you want anything to be done? It troubles me to see Felipe giving way to Fernando like that. But it would trouble me a thousand times more to see Felipe and Fernando crash into each other (like Red Bull) or one driver push the other off-track (Alonso to Hamilton, 2007 Spa).

  45. I do not remember any opinion when Button was given the team order “Keep fuel” at the very end of the race!! ordering him not to try to overtake Lewis.

    Oh jea but there is a big difference they are British. Keith a little b. of fairness would very much appreciated.

    And by the way team orders? Does any “rational” person denny they exist?

    Come how did Kimy win his championship?

    Do you hate Alonso, fine, try bodoo techniques but stopo pushin FIA for your own benefit.

    And by the way even Eckleston said team order should be allowed (because every body does)

    1. Button was given the team order “Keep fuel” at the very end of the race!! ordering him not to try to overtake Lewis

      Clutching at straws by any chance?

      McLaren unwittingly disadvantaged Hamilton by suggesting Button would not overtake, which he did. This and the subsequent ‘fuel is critical’ messages were not orders to ‘hold position’, they were saving fuel before the overtake even happened.

      Ferrari made a calculated decision to disadvantage Massa, both Smedley and Massa made that abundantly clear.

      1. “Mclaren unwittingly… suggesting”… in other words – they botched the TEAM ORDERS!!!

        I didn’t know there were Macca insiders on this board privy to their “orders”? Why would they say “fuel is critical” not “save fuel” and then attack a teammate that was told he wouldn’t be attacked?

        I guess they could argue “well yes, fuel is critical for an internal combustion engine, is it not?” if brougt to an FIA hearing!

        Ferrari didn’t disadvantage Massa they told him to drive faster (this is racing after all) and told him further – your teammate is still faster! Massa and Smedley chose to rub Ferrari’s nose in it by laying over.

        Ferrari were caught breaking the rules and were fined. We’ll see what happens further… But to say they cheated, or acted differently than other teams is pure folly…

        1. Why would they say “fuel is critical” not “save fuel” and then attack a teammate that was told he wouldn’t be attacked?

          Because they were in ‘fuel saving mode’ not ‘don’t overtake mode’, and attacking/defending eats fuel. What part of that don’t you understand?

          Ferrari didn’t disadvantage Massa they told him to drive faster

          They stole 7 points from Massa and gave them to Alonso, Massa was clearly disadvantaged.

    2. I do not remember any opinion when Button was given the team order “Keep fuel” at the very end of the race!! ordering him not to try to overtake Lewis.

      Oh jea but there is a big difference they are British. Keith a little b. of fairness would very much appreciated.

      What happened in Turkey was covered here extensively at the time. Indeed, before several other sites even bothered to pick up on it.

      This article is about what happened at Hockenheim. Something new has emerged about it so I wrote it up.

      1. Oh, I am sorry, I did not see the irony in the title.

        ““I am much quicker than Felipe” – how Alonso urged Ferrari to use team orders”

        According to you when Alonso said “I am much quicker than Felipe” it means that Alonso urged Ferrari to use team team orders.

        I just checked the english-Alonso dictionary and, yes you are right, we can see the translation:

        I am much quicker than X: Appart this car from my f… way, stop it just now.

        1. Sorry I don’t understand the last sentence of your comment.

          But, given what happened in the race and other comments that were made between Ferrari and their drivers, it’s clear that by saying “I am much quicker than Felipe” he was encouraging them to intervene and tell Massa to let him by.

          Do you have an alternative interpretation?

          1. Yes, that he was much quicker than Masa?

          2. The last sentece was just a joke, what I was trying to explain is that your interpretation of Alonso’s comment goes much further than the real meaning, and we can have the same conclusion of the comment made by McLaren engineer to Button in Turkey (before and after taking the lead of race and coming back to the 2nd postion). In both cases it should not be punished cause no team should be obligated to risk both cars and the championship in a team fight (like Red Bull stupidly did).

  46. I hope Alonso is also quicker than Massa to disappear the F1 scene. Quicker than Massa and everybody else.

    1. It just sound really sportive, really.

      When Hamilton was trying to win the championship with McLaren for the first time (Kimi won) at interlagos (first chance) all the british media was guessing if Alonso would follow team orders and let him pass if he was ask to.

      At that time nobody gave any opinion similar to the ones I can read today.

  47. So it was Alonso’s fault… Same old story. Don’t you get tired of it?

  48. What happened in the past is irrelevant because there’s no debating what’s happened in this instance. At this moment team orders are against the rules and Ferrari were caught red-handed breaking them. All this “others have cheated, so we should get away with cheating too” bleating is pathetic.

    1. What happen in the past is irrelevant when it is against Lewis or McLaren (you should say).
      Team orders are against the rules, yes And they where against teh rules when Button was asked not to try to overtake Lewis too.

      Oh jea I cacht you this is irrelevant.

      is hipocracy irrelevant too?

      Come on you want flexi-wings to be baned cause Lewis will have mor chances, you want Alonso to be punish cause it will benefit Lewis.

      Who is talking about tricks? You wanna win in the FIA office desk.

      Does Ferrari have to lose a championship just because of a winning of a car of it own team?

      No inteligent person would do that.

      1. If the team orders rule had been introduced at the start of this season and this was the first instance of an infringement what would you consider fair punishment? I haven’t read every comment on the matter but nearly every ferrari fanboy keeps blathering about “so and so did this so we should be able to get away with this”.

        “Come on you want flexi-wings to be baned cause Lewis will have mor chances, you want Alonso to be punish cause it will benefit Lewis”

        I’ve written nothing of the sort. You fanboys always chuck in something irrelevant – and baseless – to take the debate away from the simple matter a hand.

  49. Several comments have been removed – abusive and insulting comments will not be tolerated.

    See here for more: F1Fanatic Comment Policy

    1. Keith,

      It is not great to host a FA bashing thread. More of the comments in the 3 pages are insulting to either FA or thread contributors.

      1. Maybe the next time Keith try to be less controversial.

        1. I haven’t written anything controversial above – it’s just what was said on the team radio and a recap of some of the salient facts.

          At some point between now and the hearing I will write about what I expect from the outcome and what the verdict on Ferrari should be. Now would be be too soon because, as this article shows, relevant facts are still emerging. I can tell you now that, as with everything else, I will write what I think with no degree of self-censorship to appease anyone who might be upset by it.

        2. There is nothing wrong with controversial topic. It’s a good thing when people can share intelligent or honest opinions regarding a passionate subject.

          What is not OK is posters insulting one another and that’s why there are moderators.

          I’ve been hanging around F1 Fanatic for about 3 years now and I’ve never considered Keith’s articles to be biased in any way (and I’m not suggesting that you are suggesting that either) even when I disagree with them. So no matter what I’m muttering under my breath… it never comes to print.

          I’m a Ferrari fan and an Alonso fan and sometimes it’s “OUCH!”, but I’m sure the Hamilton and Seb fans share that same pain from time to time. However, most of the posters here can handle the controversy so there is no real need to avoid it.

          Cheers, Alex

  50. I’m British and a fan of racing not teams or individuals to be honest all I want to see is who’s the best in the current season and I’d be more than happy to see FA win the wdc if he can do it by his own skill which he has pleanty of he doesn’t need to cry let me past he has got skill to overtake so there was no need for it and the argument of you can’t overtake on that track is rubbish a true champ would have pressured FM into making a mistake and capitalise on it and as for all this British press nonsense give over they don’t hate FA they hate Ferrari tactics which are shady an underhand

  51. It was the first time it has been punished (Lewis should be treated the same way, but everybody know he will not).

    Regarding flexi wings I was talking in general not about you in particular.

  52. Keep up the good work Keith

  53. I visited ferraris website after the race in question on alonsos blog there was about 150 messages saying well done on massas blog there wasn’t any messages whatsoever how’s that for biased I’ll bet if they showed all comments it would show that most true Ferrari fans were disgusted with what they had done.

    1. i assure you you are mistaken

  54. You don’t see footballers tackling their team mates so they can score, why should team mates in F1 be forced to fight for position?

    It’s a bizarre state of affairs, why shouldn’t team mates work together?

    I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to race if that’s what the team wants but they should also be allowed to work together openly as it has been in the past and as clearly happens now secretively.

  55. I missed Kimi Raikkonen … “Fernando, I like Kimi more, do you understand that message?”

    1. Then Alonso will have bigger trouble because you can’t make him let his team-mate pass him,he won’t listen.

  56. No matter whatever what they say it was clear that there was team-order. Now the question is how do they play the rest of the season for the team.

    It showed very cleary that Ferrari were the quickest car to challenge Red Bull so if they can carry this momentum into the next seven races then it’s OK.But even if Alonso becomes the WC which I don’t think happening by 7 points will the F1 fans all around the world accept that?

    1. Then how do you accept Kimi as a world champion in 2007.

      I do not understand how it is ok in the last few races but frowned upon if it earlier? The way the drivers are poised Ferrari may not have a chance to run in formation in any of the upcomming races.

      I also wonder if there will be an outcry in this forum if at this stage only SV and FA were fighting for the chamionship?

      1. I do not understand how it is ok in the last few races but frowned upon if it earlier?

        It’s a question of whether both or just one of the teams’ drivers are still able to win the championship.

        I also wonder if there will be an outcry in this forum if at this stage only SV and FA were fighting for the chamionship?

        I very much doubt it, because when Ferrari used team orders at the end of the 2007 and 2008 championships, when only one of their drivers was able to win the drivers’ championship, there was very little criticism of them here. As I mentioned in this article:

        Why the team orders rule must stay

        1. Keith,

          I hate arguing on this subject with you but there are questions being raised in this situation where the worthiness of the WDC is questioned when the points gifted by team mate (at any stage) hands you the championship as in the case of 2007.

      2. Kimi won the championship when Massa was no longer able to fight for it. Massa retired in the Italian GP in 2007 so the momentum was with Kimi for the last four races of the season. Now the German GP was 11th race of the season & at that stage mathematically Massa was or still on there. But I don’t think it will even happen even in my worst dream.

        1. How does it matter when the team mate gifts the points it is still gifted.

          If F1 is not a team sport then drivers should race everyone in every race. There cant be hypocrisy in it by saying if one driver is out of the championship he can help the other. In that case more than half the field which does not have a chance can help their personal favorite driver or with teams having affiliations.

      3. “I do not understand how it is ok in the last few races but frowned upon if it earlier? ”

        In the last few races, it’s just common sense to apply team orders. And even in 2007, it was done through the pit stops. A far less obvious means of swapping the two cars around.

  57. The author has taken one Alonso comment out of context and spun it into a web of anti Alonso venom.

    Regretful

    1. I don’t see where in the article I’ve written anything you could describe as ‘venom’.

  58. Sounded like “congratulations to the king” to me.

  59. Ignoring all the playground arguments about which driver we like, what is interesting here is that FOM have edited a video & sub-titled it in this way. They are choosing to highlight the incident in an extreme manner, clearly suggesting they are not taking Ferrari’s side on this.

    1. They have done that before, like with McLaren at Turkey (see link in article).

  60. If anyone of you saw the race edit carefully, Alonso had a clear chance of taking the lead on the track (even without team orders) .. he simply should have moved on the inside after being ahead of Massa for the hair-pin, sure, he would have missed the apex, but there isn’t quite a big run into the next corner and the track gets quite narrow going ahead, so by all means he would have taken the lead.. Under normal circumstances Alonso would have closed the door had it been any other driver, but he is not too sure if Massa would have yielded which could have resulted in a crash (maybe Alonso is being a bit too careful now) having squandered good point scoring opportunities due to ill luck in the races before this
    Hence, he got the team to do it for him – but the team aren’t too good at giving subtle orders, the kind others have been good at, hence the fiasco :)

    1. I agree that he had the opportunity to pass and squandered it, but I can only speculate whether that had any effect on the team orders.

  61. Keith – I want your opinion on my post above
    Other fans can comment as well !

  62. Alonso and Mass… that’s opening a can of worms isn’t it.

    1. Why didn’t the fiery Spaniard didn’t try to pass a 2nd time?

    2. Why the passionate Brazilian who boasts that he’s not the #2 pilot let him go by?

    Hmmm… There is a bit of history between the two, but I think that Massa would have tried to take Alonso out. Hence the team orders.

  63. “I’m Faster than Massa”.
    Alonso simply say the truth.
    Can say all you want..

    But that was only the truth.
    Team order a that moment of race must be:
    ” Don’t pass your team matte if is dangerous”..
    Alonso try to pass Massa 2 or 3 times..
    But Massa deffend at a dangerous level.
    “that’s ridicolus”

    Maybe Ferrari will say to massa:
    ” Alonso will not attack you”..
    or best:
    ” Fuel critical, Felipe..”

    1. In fact the “this it´s ridicoulous” comment of Alonso came of a situation something similar. Alonso had tried to overtake Massa once and he failed. He was probably going to try again:

      Team to Alonso: “Do no try to overtake Alonso”

      Alonso to team: ¿Why?

      Team to Alonso: “Becouse it is dangerous”

      Alonso to team: “This is ridicoulous”

      We have learnt of this whole interchange recently. Probably Team was trying at this moment te rearrange the order of the race -according to a previous agreement that somebody has commented about been the fastest- without risking and accident.

      1. Team to Alonso: “Do no try to overtake Alonso”

        I think it’s disgusting that a team should forbid a driver to overtake himself :-)

        1. He would be able overtake himself ;) but it’s ridiculous :)

        2. Sorry for the mistake; I meant Massa, obviously

          Thanks, Keith, I have had a good laugh

  64. It is remarkable that Fernando used in Germany the same words he used in 2005 Canadian GP driving for Renault to urge the team order and get past Fisichella for first: “I am much quicker”.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9IDH6CUBMU&feature=related

    1. If you review the FIA videos you can see that it’s not the first time or the second time that smedley have to say Massa “Alonso is faster than you”.

      I think that the agreement of being passed if the other goes faster has been there since the beginning, and the team has given team orders when the half of the championship have passed.

      Hockenheim was the first race after the middle that was Silverstone. And everybody knows that Ferrari is a 1-2 team, so I don’t understand why everybody blames Alonso.

  65. Here’s what i think: A race is a race. You can’t just say “let him pass” to your driver, unless he has a problem with something. Race orders can’t affect the result of a race.
    Alonso whined about Felipe to the team, and they just attented to his demand. Ferrari could have backed up Massa since he is older on the team.
    On the other hand, Felipe can be loyal to the team, but he should be loyal to himself, to his career, and to his fans first. He’s a excellent driver, and could go to another great team like Mclaren, if Ferrari decides to fire him for not obey the orders.

  66. Forgive for not reading through all the comments and if this has been suggested.
    What if Ferrari have a standing team-rule forbidding the drivers from racing each other and taking chances?
    When Alonso is heard saying “this is ridiculous”, what if he is referring to the take-no-chances rule rather than being faster than Massa?

    This theory shines a much better light on both drivers, and as much as I want it to be true, I’m afraid it probably isn’t.

  67. Another point I forgot to make:
    We do not hear cycling fans complaining about team tactics in the Tour de France. How many times would Lance Armstrong have won without his teammates? ZERO.

  68. Slightly baffled by the comments “Alonso urged the team”,he may have said he is faster but surely its up to the team to decide,they have telemetry data and going by that agreed he was indeed faster at that point.
    Is there a radio transmission where Alonso asks for team orders,or allow him to pass Massa? Alonso was quicker all weekend and including the Friday practice sessions,and Ferrari wanted to gain maximum points which mean,t both drivers were expected to do just that,my own view is Massa felt he deserved to win being in front,for how long we shall never know,and made such an obvious move to allow Alonso through as a protest.
    Hungary showed again Alonso out qualified Massa,and was ahead at the finish.

  69. Great article Keith …. for a tabloid

    1. What makes you say that?

      1. First of all I´m not criticizing you or your blog, I love it, don´t get me wrong. But I think you´re not being fair in this articleand to Alonso in the recent past. It seems from the reading that only Alonso it´s to blame instead of blaming Ferrari( I was totally disgusted with that “overtake” too) It looks like Alonso brought the team orders to Ferrari and that they didn´t exist previously in the team. There is no way you can tell from the radio comments what really happen on that race unless you knew what was said by the team principals before the race to his drivers. Have you consider that maybe Alonso wasn´t allowed to overtake to avoid a collision with his team mate? That it wasn´t a so much repeated Alonso´s mistake but a back off? That´s why I think it´s a tabloidish article because you are taking a loose piece of information and making of it a fact.Your headline could also be “How Alonso urged Ferrari to let him race” Anyway I just hope you will give the same treatment to all the drivers in the future because we will see team orders again wether you like them or not.

        1. I appreciate the longer response! But, as I said to Feli below I don’t think this can be realistically viewed as anything other than a team order.

          1. It is a team order no doubt about that, but why do you blame Alonso???? Just consider that maybe he wasnt allowed to race against his team mate. BLAME THE TEAM NOT THE DRIVER

          2. joc, what you need to remember is that Keith is a closet Massa fan.

          3. @Stephen Northcott- It’s so childish when people accuse others like Keith of supporting a certain driver, whether it’s Hamilton, Massa, whoever…

          4. @David A How so?

            There is nothing wrong with supporting a particular driver, or pointing out another persons bias.

            It’s like reading a newspaper with the knowledge that a particular columnist has leanings one way or another politically.

          5. As long as it isn’t taken to the extremes I’ve seen before (like those who use bias, nationality or whatever to prove a point). That’s where it gets childish.

  70. I’m sorry Keith. I do believe your blog is the best F1 blog on the net and the level of comments is usually really high, but this post’s title is really tendentious as you are confirming without any possible doubt that FA has almost obliged Ferrari to do something illegal.

    I think that, as minimum, you should give him the benefit of the doubt as his track record is one of the most impressive of the last decade. You can like him or not, but his talent is bar none:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylMcE2IMuDg

    Everybody can have his own opinion, but signing a guilty veredict without knowing all the facts is really unfair and this guy doesn’t deserve it at all.

    1. I don’t deny he’s an excellent driver – a while ago I referred to him as ‘one of the best in the sport, if not, the best’ or words to that effect.

      But that’s not relevant here. It was clearly a team order and the stewards said as much. If I pretended otherwise I’d be insulting the intelligence of the readers.

      1. Many thanks for your answer Keith. everybody agrees that all this stuff can be considered, as so many situations that happened this same season, team orders. What I was saying is that your title says it’s Alonso who almost gave the order which for me is only your opinion, very respectable, but not a fact.

        Stewards fined Ferrari, and it could be right, but they didn’t fine Alonso… For your title it seems that they should have done it because he urged the team to act illegally for his solely interest, which for me is quite hard to accept: Alonso, for sure, doesn’t manage the Scuderia.

        Don’t you think the title is insulting for Alonso? Blaming him without taking into account all the relevant facts is not fair at all. Time will put everything and everybody in it’s right place. Let’s wait and see what does the WMC say in a few weeks.

        1. that is funny Feli,
          get to know a few things first, one is the biggest fine the Stewards can fine anyone is 50,000 and they fined Ferrari 100,000, work it out yourself. 50,000 each which means the drivers where fined.

  71. I said this already here but, even feeling sick with Alonso’s moaning, will say it again: The idea that one driver needs to let another one to overtake him just because is faster, defeats completely the core meaning of racing.
    “I am faster, so let me pass”: if this is the trend, then Formula 1 is dead.
    Very dead.

  72. Even after the race, Hamilton seemed to be suprised that Button overtook him. But at least he took his position back, but this must have been a wired situation for Lewis.

  73. I can’t stand with all this hipocresy. Team orders are commonplace and we have seen in recent times with position swap (Interlagos ’07, Nurburrging 2008, China 2008…), and without it every now and then (look after your tyres, save fuel, etc…).

    Do i like it? No. Do I understand it? Yes, it just makes sense.

    Without team orders, Alonso would have won his 3rd WDC in 2007. I have never heard him to complain about that.

    1. That argument is wasted here as massa was out of the championship.

      So that is not hipocresy

      1. Like he is out now too.

  74. Rubbish Dave
    6th August 2010, 13:52

    If the quickest person was meant to be the race winner, then we’d have time trials (see: rallying, Also: Qualifying)

    It’s not. It’s a race. If Alonso could not get past Massa, then so be it, that’s the correct finishing order to the race. What we eventually ended up seeing between the two Ferrari drivers was not a race.

    For all we see people complaining that Team Orders were used at Turkey, at least the drivers were obviously racing one another. Sure, it was risky for the drivers, but that’s racing. What we saw at Germany wasn’t.

    Also: Newsflash. Button was told to save fuel because he needed to save fuel to reach the end of the race. It may have disadvantaged him in his quest to get past Hamilton, but so then did his lack of fuel at the beginning enable him to keep up with Hamilton. It’s not as if the fact that Cars are underfueled and need to save fuel at some point in the race isn’t common knowledge (Or perhaps Hamilton being told to save fuel while following Vettel at Germany was Team Orders)

    You say there were Team Orders? Play me the radio that told Button not to pass. Show me any evidence that shows Button knew he’d been told not to pass (Hint: Videos of him overtaking Hamilton do not count. Nor do videos of him looking confused after the race when asked if he’d been ordered not to pass)

  75. The Hungary race edit has been released now, and I must say – there are some more juicy radio transmissions.

  76. Hamilton was “told” Button would not pass,team orders? saving fuel? Or so we are led to believe,which ever way you look at it Mclaren used team orders as much as Ferrari did,regardless of fuel saving (don,t pass Hamilton) mode.

    1. Rubbish Dave
      7th August 2010, 2:04

      Team Orders would be telling Button not to pass Hamilton or Hamilton to let Button pass. We heard none of that.

      Given what happened on track, it’s hard to argue that Button was told not to overtake.

      Given what FOM have decided to put up in both the Turkey and Hungary edits, do you not think it odd that they’d only play what Hamilton heard if Button had been given instructions not to pass?

  77. Every team has team orders, so it’s better to stop all the hypocrisy and make them legal in every single way.

    According to the rules, asking your drivers not to overtake each other isn’t a team order.
    That is just wrong!

  78. All the FOM info does for me is show me that Massa was nursemaided yet again lap after lap by Smedley. He was given multiple opportunities to pick up his pace. He didn’t. So he was told to move over. End of story.

  79. “I am much quicker than Felipe”

    “Try and pass him if you dare”

    “this is ridiculous”

    “Yes we can see that you can´t pass him”

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